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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • inmyhumbleopinmyhumbleop Member Posts: 24
    I'm pretty ignorant about cars. Are you saying even if they DID give us new batteries, due to the software change it won't make a difference.
    While I'm not happy about the mileage, what really worries me is what will happen when the car becomes undriveable, which according to the man who clued me in on this when he saw what I was driving, as well as many other postings all over the internet, I can expect to happen soon, probably this summer.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    i'm sorry if my writing came out wrong. i DO think the battery change will help - this is based on what people have written about getting a new battery. it appears that people no longer have the drain issue with a new battery. now, the software is a different story. i am assuming that these are two mutually exclusive issues. the software upgrade/downgrade where the IMA is accessed less - thus providing less juice/support. this will probably still remain an issue in comparison to the original software. however, the battery drain, i think, will be mitigated with a battery change. over the long haul, the battery will degrade as any normal battery. i think there was some inherently designed in flaw that caused the HCH2 ( :lemon: ) to have these drain problems - reason being, you don't hear about the same types of issues on any other hybrid model, make, or manufacturer.
  • inmyhumbleopinmyhumbleop Member Posts: 24
    Hey, I was reading an older post and you mentioned driving in Vacaville. I live in El Grove. We're practically neighbors.
    Anyway, thanks for clarifying things. I just know how much gas I have, is the oil light on, is my car overheating, and what my mpg according to the indicator.
    I am wondering if I will get a Voltage Converter recall notice. A former co-worker with the exact same car as mine just got one. I think she's hoping this will fix her mpg problem, which I assume she has - she wasn't clear on it in her e-mail.
    I think she will be sorely disappointed.
    One day, I will look at the you tube videos, etc., carefully to understand what my battery indicator is telling me so I can understand it.
  • lowbridlowbrid Member Posts: 5
    Actually its not just California that gets the 10yr/150k warranty.

    Its all the states that follow California's CARB standards for the AT-PZEV rating. These are: Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Oregon, Washington, and Arizona, District of Columbia and Bernalillo County, New Mexico. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_emission_standard
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I am getting the voltage converter replacement Thursday. I don't think it relates to milage at all. It either charges the 12 volt system properly, or it doesn't. Mine seems to work fine but it is being replaced as a safety precaution since if it fails and the 12 volt battery discharges too low the headlights won't work and the engine will die and not restart. There is an internal part that deteriorates over time and can cause failure.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    thanks!
  • oijibuuroijibuur Member Posts: 4
    edited March 2011
    I was beginning to notice a significant drop in mileage about 2 months ago so I took the vehicle to the dealer and the new firmware was installed. Since the patch, the Battery meter will not drop below 4 bars, nor will the IMA assist when it hits 4 bars on the battery meter. Has any else experienced this?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I did, but it is not a problem with a solid battery. Most of the time I still get assist with 4 bars. Also, I never get about 7 bars anymore.
  • hpdriverhpdriver Member Posts: 18
    edited March 2011
    Yes. This is the result of the IMA software upgrade. Here a summary of the events most bloggers seem to experience:

    1) There is an appearant drop off in MPG after 6 to 8 months - this is probably caused by the poorly designed/ defective IMA battery, which as is deteriorates provides less assist and decreasing MPG;

    2) After about 14 to 20 months the IMA alert and Engine light will go on - this would indicate that the IMA battery has failed. Most people experience dangerously low acceleration rates (like running a go-cart on the highway on ramp). While the problem is that the battery is depleted, no good, garbage... Honda will say that it just needs a software upgrade and everything will be okay.

    3) After software upgrade a variety of issues occur: MPG drops even further than before, especially for non-highway driving; the acceleration rate remains dangerously low; the IMA charging becomes extremely erratic with the battery periodically dropping to 2 or 3 bars and almost never going above 4 bars; Corresponding with this drop in battery charging is a decrease in the assist feature (which leads to the decreased MPG) and a decrease in IMA battery checking during deceleration and braking. But all of these symptoms, other than the MPG drop are subtle - Honda hopes you won't notice.

    4) Calls to American Honda Corp get one of 3 responses: a) Yes, the software upgrade will decrease the efficiency of your vehicle but will save the IMA battery from early failure = you pay more for gas and Honda doesn't have to replace as many defective IMA batteries; or b) Honda will tell you that "the vehicle is operating as designed", which you obviously know is a lie because ... it isn't!! or c) Honda will not call you back at all. That is their latest response. You can talk to a front-line CS rep, but no supervisor will ever call you back.

    Be careful out there Civic hybrid drivers. Let's not spend too much time looking at our dashboards and the screwy things our IMA indicators are doing. Right now, I've got to find a gas station -- I'm down to 30.4 miles per gallon. Thank you Honda!!!
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    "Also, I never get about 7 bars anymore."

    That should have been never "above" 7 bars anymore, instead of "about"
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    thanks HPDRIVER for the nice summary. though it left out a few expletives here and there. otherwise, appreciate the cliff notes version of our problems.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    What would you say is the experience of most owners if they get both the software update and a new battery? That is what I got on an 06 and everything seems to be very good so far. It performs as well as it ever did getting an average of 45-50 mpg with plenty of assist. So far it has never gone below 4 bars of charge or above 7 bars of charge. I'm just wondering how long this will last. ( I live in Florida)
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    lucky you on getting a new battery. sell it now before the drain cycle starts again ;)
  • abg_hybridabg_hybrid Member Posts: 5
    It has been months since I posted here, but I did want to confirm what everyone already knows! I had the same IMA problems as everyone else - the weird quick draining & horrible mileage. After weeks of fighting it, Honda did agree to replace the battery; even though they insisted it was fine. Since replacing the battery in the fall, my gas mileage is much closer to what it was when I bought the car AND, more importantly, I no longer have the issues with suddenly loosing power.

    I did file a complaint with the NHTSA, and they sent a follow up form. I made it clear on the form that the ONLY thing Honda did that fixed my problems was replace the battery. Good luck to you all - I know this is frustrating!
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I think that it is clear that the hybrid battery is the main culprit for our problems. I finally got a copy of the February TSB 10-034 and compared it to the July version. It is for the same IMA software update. However, there was one added note that caught my attention. It stated: "If any system indicator lights indicate a problem when the vehicle arrives, troubleshoot and repair as necessary before doing this product update." I think this has not been followed in the past and the update has been installed with bad batteries that had disasterous results (low milage, no assist).
  • oijibuuroijibuur Member Posts: 4
    Is there a way to test the battery and prove to the dealer / honda that the battery in fact needs replacing, short of waiting for an error to be generated by the diagnostic software in the car?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    There is, but not by your average tech. I think Ogre_GEV would know what it takes to do this.
  • hpdriverhpdriver Member Posts: 18
    I got a new IMA battery in late February. My mileage immediately jumped from somewhere around 29 MPG to 37 MPG. Didn't last long though. Last week was a damp rainy day in Chicago area. Had to run the front defroster, windshield wipers and lights. I watched my MPG decline from 36 MPG to 30.4 in a matter of half an hour - and the 36 had been based on half a tank of gas, so I was probably getting 25 MPG to drop it that quickly. It never recovered - getting 30.4 WITH a new IMA battery. The problem is in both the battery and the software - first the battery fails, the battery is replaced and then the software "upgrade" prevents the battery and car from operating properly.

    To any Honda Rep reading this thread: HONDA SUCKS!!! You are a disgusting company. I will tell EVERYONE I know about this situation, this thread of utter frustration and YOUR LIES!!!!!!!!!!
  • yelnats6yelnats6 Member Posts: 1
    I agree.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    edited March 2011
    i had my arbitration hearing a couple of weeks ago. i tried showing the video of the multiple recals occurring within just one day. unfortunately, the arbitrator quoted the 2006 manual that says - IMA "MAY" display only 2 bars and that IMA "MAY" drain during uphill. this is what the arbitrator is basing the decision on that this is NOT a defect and declined my claim. i don't think she understood what the crux of the issue really is. though the manual says that it "MAY" drain....that can be understandable. but it's happening practically every other time i turn the engine on. i was not demonstrating that it "MAY" happen, but i can guarantee that it "WILL" happen, and happen often. and when i drive city, 70% of the time, the car is under IMA regen.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    If you can get the IMA light to come on, that would indicate conclusively that there is a problem.
  • viawviaw Member Posts: 34
    i am praying that the light comes on before the next 5 years and 45k because that's what's left before i lose my cali warranty. :(
  • jdenver130jdenver130 Member Posts: 7
    I feel like I just won the lottery but I got Honda of America to approve a new battery for my wife's Honda Civic Hybrid. It wasn't that difficult but it took a lot of persistence.

    You may say is there really a battery problem? Yes. What is Honda's solution for this? replacing the battery under warranty? No! They created a software fix that reprograms the IMA battery software to preserve the battery by reducing the IMA assist. When you reduce the IMA assist, you reduce the available horsepower. When you reduce horsepower, you reduce miles per gallon. This process is partly alluded to in Bulletin 10A-034 page 2 which reads as follows:

    "To ensure there’s plenty of power for engine
    starting and accelerating from a stop, the IMA
    system reserves more battery power. This
    reduces the IMA assist as the vehicle speed
    increases."

    Here's one if your beginning your journey to get Honda to replace your battery: Don't go to the dealers service department without the IMA light on. In fact, if the IMA light is on go to Autozone and have them read the codes to ensure that code P0A7F is on. (They will actually print it on a piece of paper for you) That's the code for battery replacement. If you don't go there with this code on you will be charged $168 and a "thank you note for doing business here". If the code is on then the diagnostic is free because its related to a warrenty issue.

    Second, have the service department write out a ticket and print it out for you. Make sure that it says they found code P0A7F and that it refers to battery degeneration (fancy for bad battery). Now its in their system.

    Third, talk to the shop foreman about the issue. Document the conversation with time and date. Try to come to an agreement that this is a battery issue but you don't want the software upgrade. Tell him you understand that you understand Honda policy on this issue but at least have talked with him and you have notes.

    Fourth, talk to the shop foreman's boss on the next trip to the dealer. Tell him that you would like to have your IMA battery replaced that the right code is available for battery replacement. Show him the work order ticket and tell him both you and the shop foreman both agree that the battery is under warranty and that it exhibits the correct code for battery replacement. Explain to him Bulletin 10-034 and that the software fix reduces the performance of the IMA engine assist and that this lowers your miles per gallon. Explain to him that you paid 25k for the car to get high mpg and will under no circumstances have the fix applied to your car. Don't argue with him. However, come to an agreement that at the very least that both of you agree that the battery needs replacement based on the code P0A7F. Remind him that this code means: Battery degeneration. Battery degeneration can ONLY be truly fixed by battery replacement not a software fix that reduces IMA engine performance based on BB 10A-034. Write a summary of the meeting and what he said.

    (have to go but I'll be back)
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    They will replace the battery, but I'll be surprised if they don't do the software upgrade too.
  • jdenver130jdenver130 Member Posts: 7
    I will not be required to have the dreaded software upgrade. I have received permission from the Honda District Representative to have the IMA battery replaced without the software upgrade. I had to make one concession - the second battery will not be under warranty. I can live with that. We've had our Civic Hybrid for 4 years and it has 38,000 miles on it. The second battery will most likely last that long and by then it will be time to trade it in. If we don't trade it in we can do one of 3 things. First, we can buy a new battery. Right now a battery replacement costs $3,000. But 3k is cheaper than 25k for a new car. Second, we can send the old battery of to be refurbished. There's a place in Austin that will remove the battery and send it off for refurbishment. Third, we can buy a used battery from the junk yard for $500.

    But for now, I am pleased to say we won the IMA battery battle and will receive our battery replacement in 2 weeks - with NO software update!
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Glad you were able to get your battery replaced. But the key to your success appears to be having your IMA light on. I had a failing battery (frequent discharging) for several months but the IMA light did not go on. I took it in several times to Honda and complained but they said there were "no problems" because my IMA light was not on. I figured eventually the IMA light would come on but I didn't want to wait for it to come on.
  • jdenver130jdenver130 Member Posts: 7
    You have to at least have the IMA light on because you know at that point the P0A7F code is generated. The reason why Honda waits for that code is because its takes time for the battery to degenerate to extremely low levels. The more time goes by the more time they have to ignore it or give you the run around.

    Our Honda did the same thing as yours. We saw the up and down charging process but I just kept driving the car waiting for it to generate a code. They wanted me to get "the fix" but I knew if I did the fix, it would simply prolong battery degeneration and give them more time to give me the run around.

    My advice is to keep driving the car until the IMA light comes on - and it will. I think Honda was surprised at how persistent I was. In addition, I really benefited from reading HCH owners experiences in this forum. I avoided a lot of mistakes that others had made in dealing with Honda. Moreover, my understanding of the issue greatly increased as well from reading the forum.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Sounds like this might be best for you. My battery failed at a little over 80K miles and at 4 years. The new warranty is only for three years and 36K miles. So, you should be fine without it.
  • typhoon123typhoon123 Member Posts: 1
    Did you end up doing the DC to DC fix? If so, did they sneak in the software upgrade? If you did do the DC to DC fix, what has happened to the car's performance since? Like you, I decided to not do the upgrade a year ago and don't want to do something now that will screw it up. Thanks.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I did the DC to DC fix, but I already had the software upgrade and a new battery. My milage is still very good, just a tad better, but I doubt it was because of the fix. I did notice something interesting when I picked up my car. It registered 8 bars of charge which I have never gotten since the software update. Maybe they charged the battery. Once it dropped below 8, it never got above 7 again just as it had been doing.
  • inmyhumbleopinmyhumbleop Member Posts: 24
    2 questions about my 07 HCH
    First since, I DID get the infamous software upgrade (or should we call it a "downgrade"), does that mean I am stuck with the lower mileage forever - whether I get a new battery or not? The Honda dealer did confirm the software upgrade can't be undone.
    Second, how come I haven't gotten a DC to DC recall notice? My friend with the exact same car did!
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I haven't gotten the DC recall notice, either. I also got the software update, and a new battery. I can't get anymore than 38.8 mpg, that is on a tank that is mostly highway miles. For a combo of both city and highway, I average about 37.5 mpg. Before the battery failed, I got about 42-45. So, in my opinion, yes, you will be stuck with the lower mileage forever, new battery or not.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    The recall is based on VIN. Some 07's get it and some don't. When I got the new battery my milage increased to what it was before the software update.
  • drspacemandrspaceman Member Posts: 3
    Does anyone have a recent 2010 HCH with this problem? I've been reading the past postings, but a lot of it pertained to the 06-07 HCH. Any suggestions? this was my first hybrid purchase and this is the second time it has happened in the past two weeks. I tightened by gas cap and the light went away a couple days later. but now it's back up again.

    your help would be greatly appreciated!
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Just take it to the dealer. You have full warranty. The error code should be stored.
  • inmyhumbleopinmyhumbleop Member Posts: 24
    Don't know what causes the problem with your car is but.....
    your car is under warranty. I would write a letter describing it, then make an appointment with your Honda dealer to have THEM fix it. Document everything!
    You don't want to wait until it's too late like us poor 06/07 owners.
  • gregr2gregr2 Member Posts: 14
    I don't have a 2010 but I bought a 2009, brand-new, and my light came on at 2000 miles. Took it in, software upgrade done, the light stayed off for about a week and then came back on. Took it in again and they said I had a bad battery and they replaced the battery.

    For the first 2000 miles I was getting 45-47 MPG, now now I am getting 38-40 MPG. Same story as multiple other people on this forum. Although everything is covered under the warranty, I am not getting the MPG I was sold..

    This just goes to show that Honda remains uninterested in fixing this battery problem and it continues to show up in each new model year.
  • jdenver130jdenver130 Member Posts: 7
    I'm at the spot in the road where the dealer and Honda of America will not put the software fix on the car. In addition, a battery is on order (I've doubled checked to make sure it was on order). Third, Honda of America and dealer has agreed to replace the battery for free. Finally, Honda of America and dealer will not apply "the fix". This was the key issue in all our our discussion. No software would be upgraded. No reprogramming of the IMA battery system will take place. On the day of the installation, I will double check with the shop forman and make sure that the shop ticket says "no softwareware upgrade".
  • jdenver130jdenver130 Member Posts: 7
    Theres a reason why the IMA light comes on about a week after "the fix". Honda Bulliton 10A-034 specifies "what you can expect" from the fix on page 2.
    It says "the IMA system reserves more battery power" - that doesn't sound life threatening. But then it says "This REDUCES IMA ASSIST". What does that mean for miles per gallon. If the new software tells the IMA system to use less electricity, then the IMA system will not have full power. Without full power it will generate less horse power to move the car. If you have less horse power, then you get less miles per gallon. That's what is happening.

    Now why did the light come on after a week? By the time the IMA light comes on, the battery is critcally weakened. It may have only 10% effeciency left. But since "the fix" told the system to use less energy, it gave the battery a little bit more time to avoid battery failure. That time frame seems to be about a week of driving.

    Its possible to roll back "the fix" but I haven't had to argue about that issue since they agreed to replace my battery without the fix.
  • jdenver130jdenver130 Member Posts: 7
    The fix can be rolled back to its origional software. How do I know that? Because a person from California posted that he got Honda to replace his battery and roll back the software. HOA authorized this work on the ticket as a "warrenty goodwill gesture".

    If you'r going to fight HOA on this you need to be working with the dealers Service Director and HOA's regional district representative.
  • jdenver130jdenver130 Member Posts: 7
    It appears that all Honda Hybrids have the same IMA software when you buy a Honda Civic Hybrid. How do I know. Just about every year model has been mentioned in this forum. Every Honda is having this issue. If the sofware fix was the solution to this problem, then the new cars would have the fix and they would be running fine and not mentioned in the forum. But that's not the case. Every model year is having this problem. What does it tell us? Honda has not figured out a way to use less electricity for the IMA system. Therefore, the batterys will continue to degrade much much sooner than expected. My 2007 HCH began to degrade about 25,000 miles. However, listening to owners in this forum, it appears the newer HCH's degrade before they reach 10,000 miles. Now you know why HCH owners are in a pickle.

    What can you do? If you take it down to the dealer they will say you need "the fix" first. A week later, after the light comes on again, they will say you need a new battery. After they do that they will pray they will never hear from you again because they have "fixed" the issue. If you bring your car down again they have to say "we can't find an issue" or "your car is running just fine" - that will be $168 please diagnosis- thank you.

    I suggest that you put on your army boots, and get into the ring and put up a defense. If you need some suggestions as to how to start the process let me know. Whatever happens dont let them apply the fix to your car. You can fight HOA and win.
  • inmyhumbleopinmyhumbleop Member Posts: 24
    2007 Honda 49K mi.
    I asked my Honda Dealer (the assistant Service Manager) if the fix could be "undone" and he said no. I called the Service Manager and said that HOA said I should get the low mileage "diagnosed". I said "so was I now expected to pay to find a problem that we know what it is?" He said I shouldn't have it "diagnosed". In other words, he knows what it is too. He was very rude and just told to me call 800 blah blah blah which I recognized as the HOA number.
  • drspacemandrspaceman Member Posts: 3
    Thanks Jdenver and everyone for some good insight. I will definitely need some advice as to getting in the ring with Honda if things persist.

    So here's an update of my car. Once a week, the IMA and engine light will turn on...i tighten my gas tank cap and all is well two days later. I notice my battery is charging well, and my battery assist is doing great too. Haven't seen a decrease in mpg as well. Does this type of thing sound familiar? does this sound okay or is there something happening to the battery as time goes on and i'm not able to see it?

    Thanks for everybody's advice! it's good to know that we're not alone in this.

    Ed
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    My IMA light did not come on when I had a fuel cap problem. There was a "check fuel cap" message on the information readout. Don't know how yours is connected to tightening your gas cap.
  • drspacemandrspaceman Member Posts: 3
    My honda dealer said that if my gas tank cap is not tight, the ima and check engine light will turn on. Are they trying to mess with me? :mad:
  • bobbichenbobbichen Member Posts: 11
    This isn't uncommon in most cars, at least as to the Check Engine Light. I didn't tighten my cap enough in my 2000 Toyota Camry Solara and the light came on. However I would be surprised if the IMA light came on from that issue. As to the question about "is the software fix reversable"; of course. A flash upgrade is simple computer science. Flash memory is found on a lot of devices, like hard drives. When you "flash" the memory you are changing the software located on the hardware. The reason they can't reverse it is likely that Honda did not give them the software (code) to put it back. So they have nothing to use software wise except for the "upgrade" or "fix", which we pretty well can all agree is neither. The evidence is pretty strong that it is intended to delay final battery failure but that it is just delaying the inevitable at the expense to the owner, and to the betterment of Honda (temporarily). Until Honda modifies the batteries or simply sucks it up and gets used to the idea of changing out these batteries one or more times prior to the warranty expiration, they are likely to continue to have these problems. My opinion, yours may differ.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    "Until Honda modifies the batteries or simply sucks it up and gets used to the idea of changing out these batteries one or more times prior to the warranty expiration, they are likely to continue to have these problems. My opinion, yours may differ."

    To me it appears that they will try and prolong it as much as possible and change out as few batteries as they can get away with until warranties run out. Only the right type of successful class action lawsuit would cause a different outcome.
  • pas2pas2 Member Posts: 3
    I have the same problem. No IMA light, but like a diligent little Honda owner, I had the IMA reprogrammed per the letter from Honda. My 2008 HCH now gets 20% less gas mileage. The service dealer told me they could do nothing about it and to call Honda America, which I did. After discussing this with three reps, the answer I got was that they would NOT turn back the update. I am severely upset since the whole reason I bought this was for the mileage. Now I have lousy mileage (in the 30's) and far less power. Note that I never had a battery issue...the car ran great and was the best I have ever had in terms of mileage!

    I want to "put on my army boots", but I could use some help on where to start. I think Honda is completely hosing us on this issue to save their own butts by not having to replace batteries that blow prior to the warranty period.

    Any assistance would be appreciated!
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    My milage never came back until the battery was replaced. However, it is most difficult if not impossible to get Honda to replace the battery without the IMA light coming on. The problem is it is hard to get the light to come on unless the battery is severely deteriorated. It will eventually come on, but you need to try and make it come on before the warranty expires if possible.
  • gnatggnatg Member Posts: 7
    If anyone starts a class action lawsuit, I want to join. Please contact me in that case.
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