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I have 2003 Civic Hybrid. IMA light came on about six months ago. I thought that it would cost me a lot of money to get it replaced. But I was fortunate because in California the battery warranty is for 10yrs. or 150000 miles. Dealer replaced IMA battery for free. I was very happy. But then last month, IMA light came back on. Took my car back to the dealer. They said that it's the battery again but we will replace for free since it's not 10 yrs. yet.
Then I asked, why did the battery blew up in 6 months? It's supposed to last for years. He said that the replacement batteries are REFURBISHED not new.
Please make sure to ask dealers whether they are putting new IMA batteries or refurbished.
What are your thoughts on this, helpers?
I contact the private owner who tells me it's all good. No IMA issues or other concerns.
But after reading this and other thread about $3,000 IMA replacements and/or a major drop in MPG, I'm somewhat spooked.
I guess I'm looking to avoid getting a :lemon:. Any advice if you were looking to purchase an '06 HCH? Should I make sure it's checked out by a Honda dealer who can plug it in and check how much battery life remains or are there other ways to tell.
This has 114,000. Thanks.
I would go with a regular CIVIC even if it costs more or you need to buy and older model. I know of several people who SOLD their HCH's because their teenager was going to start driving and they weren't comfortable with them driving their car.
Joe
Problem was masked by the IMA light coming on, but earlier posts from others (around #770) pointed to the A/C relay. Currently having another 12 volt dead battery problem, but definately not a stuck relay this time.
One possible affect of a constantly engaged clutch is that the windings may go bad. Original relay problem fixed about 115,000 miles. A/C clutch and compressor replaced about 188,000 miles. Car currently has 193,000 miles with front wheel bearings needing changed.
Before the update this car was fun to drive and solid on even the toughest switchbacks up or downhill. Seamless transmission that kept the gear ratio just right all the time. Very smooth ride on hilly roads, uphill caused a slight gradual increase in RPM with out gear hunting then back to overdrive. (Sliced bread all over again). Able to get onto the 75 MPH freeways without much effort. Once up to speed the engine was almost silent the tachometer sat at 1800 w/ AC on and 2-3 passengers. I consistently saw 52-56 MPG even on highways with hills.
Then 2 years later, "software update" was applied that threw all this out the window. I read many posts about decreases in MPG after the update. I think the gear ratio post update has a lot to do with it.
Since the update was applied, the gear ratio has changed big time for the worse. At 50 MPH or higher the RPMs remain high even when up to speed. On 75MPH flat freeway the car stays at 2800 - 3500 RPM the whole time and makes for a noisy ride. Feels as if the last transmission gear or overdrive was removed if it had been a regular transmission.
Now this car is a nightmare to drive on the same freeways/highways and has endangered me and my passengers numerous times near any inclines. Several times the updated car was not able to maintain or increase speed on inclines. Since the car is already at 3-4K RPM to maintain speed, you need to push the car to the red line to stay with traffic uphill. Even then it still falls behind on some roads @6500K RPM! Trucks and 18 wheelers pass me. Plus keeping the car at or near the red line for 3-5 minutes at a time can't be good for the engine but after the update its the only way to keep the car going up some hills. Same roads before the update were no problem.
The higher RPMs greatly reduce the gas mileage on the same roads to the 30's even with no passengers and A/C off. The best I've seen is 42MPG on the highway, mostly slower highways @55 MPH. As for 65 or 75 MPH roads I've and as low as 27 averages. The range of this car per tank is about half what it was before as the car burns so much more gas at high RPM.
Honda messed up the CVT gear ratio with this update big time and refuses to take responsibility or correct the problem. All I want is my car like it was when I paid a $6K premium for the "hybrid" abilities. Instead I have a car that is unsafe to drive on the freeway and can't even get gas mileage higher than the 06 regular Civic before it. At this rate this will probably be my last Honda...
Anyone else notice higher RPM at highway speeds after getting the software update?
47City/55Hwy before update
Freeway Range ~620 miles
200 mile round trip to nearby city = 3/4 tank left
45City/33Hwy after update
Freeway Range ~350 miles
Same 200 mile trip = 1/3 tank left
Have you gone back to the dealer? Something is not right! It was my understanding that the update was only for the 2006-2008 models and that the 2009-2011 refresh models already had the "update" applied at the factory. (Can someone else on forum confirm).
You did have awesome mpg before the issue. Are yo a hypermiler?
I too have a 2009 hybrid but my mileage was always between 37-44 depending how much hwy vs. city we drive.
Can you give us more details about your car such as miles, tire pressure, and mantainace. And dealer response. Likely not the issue, but have you had the CVT transmission fluid changed on schedule?
Good luck.
Also, replying to Bryan (message post #1393), my hybrid is a 2005 model. This year also fell under the software update umbrella. Fortunally l already had issues with the local dealer, and will never take the car in to them for maintenance. My preferred dealer is about 100 miles away, and never had time to get to them before I started reading about bad things on the update. So my vehicle software is as from the factory.
That said, it currently runs 3000 rpm at 72 mph. Mileage is about 38 mpg. Has dropped from a steady 42 mpg (with A/C running) running mostly at 60 mph or higher. This nearing a CVT fluid change, engine oil change and probably added friction from front wheel bearigs going bad (193,000 odometer reading). Spark plugs new at about 170,000 miles
Still running original IMA battery pack, and noticing more cycling down to about 1/2 charge now. Charge indicator kicks in 3 bars at steady speeds, then up to about 3/4 charge after about 2 miles when charge indicator goes neutral.
The hybrid system for the 2005 model year did two things: contributed up to 60% torque to the gas engine during acceleration, and the option (driver selectable) of shutting down the engine, thus also the A/C, at stops from 10 mph or greater. So for steady highway speed the IMA battery never comes into play. But once the computer is reprogrammed to 'baby' the battery, the fuel air mixture is richened hoping that more gas delivered will make a weak engine perform better.
There has to be a baseline software that can be loaded back into the control module. As each dealership takes on the character of the owner, it may take some calling around to find a shop willing or capable of doing just that. Also, and this may be cost prohibitive, find out if an off-the-shelf replacement module comes factory loaded with the baseline software, or if service bulletins require updates on all replacement modules.
The 09 HCH was bought new w/ 36 miles on it. Now has 36,500 miles. Regularly serviced, Synthetic oil and got oil changes done ~30% on the maintenance minder. Never let it go to 15 or when the red wrench appears. CVT fluid replaced last oil change ~32000 miles. Had Dunlop LRR tires originally, just replaced them w/ Michelin Primacy MXV4's. Took slight 2-3 MPG hit but quieter ride aside from the high revving engine. Tire pressure I think is 32, the dealer usually took care of that for me and I didn't want to risk blowouts by elevating the pressure. Also last oil change they found the lead acid battery was reporting weak and replaced that. (In general car batteries need to be replaced every few years with the hot summers here.)
No issues until 18K miles, the IMA light came on. 2 months before the IMA the car was parked w/ 5-6 bars. Shortly after starting the car, the battery emptied out then charged about 4 miles later. Some days it even cycled 2 times in the 18 mile commute.
Took it to the dealer the day after the IMA light came on. They said the battery had "deteriorated" and was not able to keep a charge. Battery was replaced and all was just great for several months, no more battery cycles at start.
The commute is 18 miles each way w/ a gradual elevation change from ~2930 feet to 2530 feet, no highways. 60-70 mpg drive into town, 35-50 on the way back depending on traffic & A/C. Weekly sat at 44-48. Still does close to that even now but closer to 40-44 range as it revs higher in general after the update. Generally drive light on acceleration and coast to red lights when possible. Got good at maximizing the electric pull and regen.
The update did make one improvement, it no longer lets the battery go empty w/ auto-stop and A/C on. That little electric compressor drained the IMA to where it was empty when the engine started up it took off like a slug and had to floor it to get it going. Doesn't happen like that after the update since the engine goes back on before that happens.
Then in preparation for a long drive with family I brought it to the dealer for an early oil change and to have all the belts & fluids checked and I asked them to see if there were any pending updates for the IMA. Being a computer guy I figured it wouldn't hurt to see if there are any updates to lessen the chance of another battery failure. This was last March 2011 ~26000 miles.
They found 3 software updates and applied them. They let me walk over to they guy applying the patch and I asked him what the patch did etc. I was told that the update changed how the auto stop and SOC (State of Charge) works. He also mentioned "slightly" higher revs on the highway. I didn't think much of it at the time but its much more than slightly in hindsight.
During that drive, there was several occasions going up or down hills where the car had a hard time getting up hills. Sounded like I was driving in Nascar but shedding speed if it was uphill. Other family members who shared the long drive who have driven the car before the update also noticed the problem too.
The Run Around
Took the car to the dealer it was purchased from 3 times with no luck. They tried applying the update again w/ no change. Took it on the freeway w/ a laptop hooked up to it claimed they didn't see anything wrong. They also didn't exactly take the car out of city limits where the speed limit goes to 75 with hills long enough to see the problem and kept downplaying it saying that I didn't know what I was talking about basically the car is fine.
Took the car to the other dealer in town, they took it on the freeway and didn't see any issues. Called Honda CS a year ago. They set up an appt with a manager who gave me the run around and said that there is nothing they could do and to go back to the dealer. Back and fourth 3x.
Both the dealer said that they can't put the original firmware back and that they didn't have a later version of the firmware. Still a year and half later the problem still exists. Thankfully my commute is all surface streets and the issue only gets bad with hills on the highway otherwise I would have traded this car in last summer. The gear ratio appears to have been tweaked to rev higher to make up for the less power from the electric motor. I can imagine many folks don't notice this particular problem as some states don't have 75 MPH speed limits on the interstate or hills and mountains nearby to drive though. If those conditions exits, this car just can't handle them as well as before the update. Average RPM on a highway with hills is ~3-6K where it had been ~2-4K. There is another dealership about 100 miles from here that I have not tried yet but considering it. (prolly burn up almost a whole tank getting there)
The 2 in the area don't seem to be competent enough to genuinely do something about the issue or properly escalate it and Honda CS doesn't help much either. Good times.
You're stuck. I have an '07 HCH and now I'm used to it. Been there, done that - your story is mine 2 years ago. But that doesn't mean Honda is off the hook for their fraudulent actions. Google "rego v. Honda" or e-mail me at k4dwood@yahoo.com.
Kathy
It's been over a year now, and I've gotten used to the lack of power but still pisses me off I can't drive like normal people, and it can still be scary at times. I would like to get another vehicle, but can't afford to take the hit. It goes without saying that I'll never buy a Honda on principle.
So, a three year old vehicle is on its third IMA battery. WOW. Yet I still get the Honda song and dance. Great service.
I have a 2009 HCH with 69,000 miles and I have had two batteries fail. Honda has replaced them, but it is pretty obvious the batteries are inferior.
STAY AWAY, STAY AWAY, STAY AWAY
dealership and they said the Hybrid battery was bad. Since it was under warranty (8 years, 80,000 miles as per federal mandate) it was replaced. Since then the car has steadily declined in mpg and performance. The system is not assisting the engine as previously done and my mpg is down to 38.4 and declining. I took it back to the dealership and they cannot find anything wrong. I am so disappointed that I am considering selling the car. I may also look for possible legal action if I cannot get any satisfaction from Honda.
Second, never having got the software mods since originally purchased, my 2005 HCH gets around 38 mpg after the A/C compressor was replaced at 192,000 miles. Before the compressor went bad got 42 mpg with AC running. With the AC turned off can still get 50 mpg with moderate driving below 60 mph.
The story with the A/C is that it is an original Honda part, but not from a Civic Hybrid. My guess is that there is some low-friction design in the HCH specific part to get better mileage from the engine.
50 mpg is good, but put 44 lbs in your tires and you should be able to get 60 or so. I have a 2004 CVT and it's the same car as yours.
I wonder if my IMA will finally die soon. Last January the faulty code showed up, then the dealer erased it and installed the bloody patch. I still have 4 years warranty on the IMA. The sooner the battery gets replaced the sooner I sell the car. That's if anyone wants to buy a 06 HCH.
Honda really screwed that one up. :lemon:
:P
Honda IMA batteries can last a very long time, but they do not typically outlast the car. With the ten year IMA warranty expiring on the earliest Honda Insights, and the warranty void on Salvage cars, I hope this information will be useful to some EcoModders. You can repair your own IMA battery for $100-350 including equipment and replacement cells, instead of paying someone $1000 to do it for you, or dropping $3000 at the dealership.
Warning: This post is longer than most, and parts of it may not be of interest to you.
Warning: High voltage is dangerous. Read the section on safety, and don't work on things you're not comfortable with.
Do I have an IMA battery problem?
You can tell how much usable capacity the Insight's battery has by observing the range of its state of charge (SoC) gauge. A healthy battery will move through the entire range. As the battery degrades, it will move through fewer LCD bars on the gauge. A check engine light will come on with the P1447 code once the battery's capacity is reduced to about a third of what it was when it left the factory, which corresponds to a battery that moves through only about 5-6 bars on the gauge. You may want to repair your IMA battery even if you don't have a check engine light, just to obtain longer-lasting assist and regen.
What goes wrong with IMA batteries?
Battery imbalance: Honda IMA batteries consist of a large number of NiMH cells in series. Due to unequal rates of self-discharge, some of the cells will have a higher or lower state of charge than others. This is easy to correct, but failure to do so results in diminished battery capacity, and can damage the cells that are too high or too low.
Cell degradation: One of the treatable problems that diminishes the cell's capacity is the formation of nickel dendrites in the cell. Rapidly charging and discharging a cell through its full range can help restore its performance.
So how do you fix an IMA battery?
Battery state of charge imbalance is easy to treat. If you take a NiMH cell that is fully charged, then continue to apply charging current to it, it will convert the extra current into heat. Provided that the current is small so the cell doesn't overheat, this doesn't appear to damage the cell. Thus if you apply a little charging current to an imbalanced battery, the cells that are high will peak first, and begin to convert the current into heat while the other cells catch up.
You can build a grid charger/balancer for around $100. Insight guru Mike Dabrowski came up with this design, which is an adjustable 174V-210V, 350mA constant current power supply. Leave it charging your battery (with the battery fan running) for 36 hours or so, and it will top off ALL your cells, restoring state of charge balance. You can do this without removing the battery from the car, and it may be enough to get you back on the road.
You should occasionally have the car run the battery through its full range of SoC. Go heavy on the gas until it's depleted (an assist/regen disable toggle switch, or some hills, will help). Then let the car charge the battery until it's full. Do not do this with an imbalanced pack.
Advanced methods
If these things are not sufficient, you can get a more thorough repair by removing the battery from the car and disassembling it. An Insight's pack of 120 NiMH D-cells breaks up into 20 sticks of 6 cells each. Using a battery charger/discharger/analyzer like the MRC Super Brain 989 ($150), you can charge and discharge each stick through its full range. Write down the discharge capacity of each stick, and keep cycling each stick until the capacity stops improving. Once you have finished cycling each stick, charge it fully and write down the date and time. Come back in a week and charge it again, and record how much energy it took to charge. That is that stick's weekly self-discharge rate.
You'll probably find some of your sticks have an abnormally high or low rate of self discharge. These are the sticks that are causing the pack to go out of balance. If you grid charge monthly, you can live with that problem indefinitely. You may also find that while most of your sticks have 5500-6500mAh capacity, there may be one or two that are stubbornly lower. These weak cells will hold back the entire pack. You will need to replace the weak sticks. A professional repair involves building a pack out of used sticks whose capacity and rate of self-discharge matches.
I pulled a battery from the junkyard and cycled each of its sticks. The chart at the top right is the most important one. You want all your cells to match as closely as possible in terms of self-discharge, and the performance of the pack will be the same as that of its weakest cell. This particular junkyard pull was probably a fairly new battery that didn't need anything more than a good, long grid charging.
You many be wondering what settings to use on the Super Brain 989. You want to go as fast as you can without overheating the cells, so I chose 7A charge, 10A discharge, and I didn't need to run the battery fan, with ambient temperature at 62°F. The Insight's cells are 6500mAh nominal, I used 5mV per cell peak detection, and 0.9VPC cutoff.
How to access the Insight's battery
First, remove the key from the ignition. This de-energizes the power cables leading from the battery to the inverter and DC/DC converter. Second, remove the rear carpet from the car. Remove two bolts from the little door at the center of the IPU lid to access the service disconnect switch. Throw that switch to Off, which means the battery is no longer a complete circuit. There's still dangerous voltage differences under the plastic covers on the junction board, so treat the whole battery with respect. The IPU lid is held on by a dozen T30 bolts and a dozen 10mm hex head bolts. Remove it, and you'll be looking at this:
The battery module is on the right, with its fan in the foreground, its computers on top, and its junction board on the left. If you wish to attach a grid charger, you must attach its + terminal to the "hot" side of the high voltage relay or bypass relay (that's the bottom), and its - terminal to the battery's - terminal.
If you want to remove the battery module, it's held on by six bolts, four cables, and six wire harness connectors. You'll need to move the car's center bulkhead aside to get at some of the bolts, which involves removing some interior trim. If you'd like to disassemble a battery module, it's pretty self-explanatory, but remove the contact grid (which puts the cells in series) from the side of the battery opposite the junction board before you do anything else. Once you do that, the battery is pretty much safe, with no more than 17V anywhere.
Warnings and Safety
Foremost, know what you're doing, and don't
Find out what other codes you have that may be lighting the IMA light. Your 2005 IMA battery is warrantied until sometime later this year if you have less than 80,000 miles. California vehicles are 10 year, 150,000 miles. If you have a P1447, P1449 or some other errors, you are eligible for a replacement battery.
The software update for a P1420 or P2000 reprograms the car to be less sensitive to the efficiency of the catalytic converter and it may actually correct the problem (turn off the check-engine light).
Lastly, 2003-2005 Civics are different than 2006-2011 Civics. The 2003-2005 models do not have a problem with software upgrades, just the 2006-2011 cars do.
both got the same malfinctions:
1-they could not climb a hill if they stopped while climbing, i.e. they couldnot resume climbing after the stop!
2-when autostop runs the aircondition fails
I asked a freind who owns civic hybrid 2008 and he said that he is suffering the same with his car!!!
it seems that this is general problem in honda civic hybrid 2006-2009
any body knows the solution??
Going on 18 months of back and fourth with the dealer & Honda with no resolution. Honda CS is useless and has a very poor escalation procedure (non existant I should say) The "case managers" are a joke and refuse to do anything to help. I submitted a BBB report against them but doubt the issue will get fixed but might as well make the complaint public. I plan on opening a flickr account with screenshots of the problem occurring too.
No more Honda cars for me after this bad experience.
I read of my first Prius battery replacement in all places "The Costco Magazine". The car was 11 years old if I remember. The dealer quoted a price of $2700+. The person who wrote the letter said that he contacted his Costco membership and found that if he ordered his replacement battery through them, he would get it for $500 less than the dealer quoter. Hope this bit of info might help someone out of warranty needing a new battery.
I got taken to the cleaners financially and emotionally on the Honda Hybrid that I bought.
Sorry for the question-filled reply. I'm a bit suspicious after my history with Honda, the dealer, and my vehicle. Thank you for your information.