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Per the reference manuals that I have, P0A7F which is a "soft" DTC (it will not light the CEL or IMA) means that the battery capacity has deteriorated to less than 10% of the original 6.5Ah. This means that while it is capable of producing as much current and driving the motor as strongly, it will be depleted in only 10% of the time of a new battery. As I said before, your bad luck was that all 120 cells deteriorated at the same rate and the balance was never thrown out far enough to trigger the hard DTCs.
It's important to note that this code does not automatically mean the battery is dead. If you then drive it aggressively down to "empty" and then conservatively drive it up to "full" a few times, the capacity might rise back up to 20% or even 50% or more.
The software updates that they applied address issues like this and either try to prevent the deterioration or try to make it easier to recover from it.
I know your car is not performing the way it used to, but the big question is: what kind of mileage are you getting now? Different may not mean worse (mpg-wise).
No it doesn't. A false P0A7F might be thrown because of that, but not in this case. No IMA light was lit.
Contact me privately if you want more information on this or any other OBD code.
Sorry, no they can't. If the programs "degrade", then the computer module will fail.
The computer patches are fixes. If problems ("bugs") are found in the software, they release a "patch" (new version of the program) to fix it. As mechanical/electrical problems are discovered in the cars, the engineers find ways of adapting the computers to solve the problems or alleviate the symptoms.
>At 80k the dealer said I needed a new trans, but erasing and reprogramming the computer fixed most of the issues.
In other words, they had found work-arounds for the problems and updating the software made most of them go away.
On a side note, I rode in a Tesla today. Amazing car (though only seats two). Immediate acceleration like you wouldn't believe, like a rocket. Extremely quiet, 100% electric. No problem with its batteries (of course it costs around $120,000...)
Anyone know if our battery is screwed and Honda is shafting us?
My wife drives the car the most. Sometimes battery level would drop to 1-2 bars with AC on during summer (live in Central Valley California). Before IMA issue, on average we got 37 MPG local city/highway (with AC). We got better mileage on highway trips.. average 43 MPG at 70mph and could get 52 MPG at 55mph.
We took car to Honda 10/28/09 and they did their thing. Will know more about MPG this next fill up and battery performance.
So Hondas solution... software upgrades. What? Hiding a piece of garbage using smoke and mirrors isn't going to change the fact that its still garbage.
They know there is an issue with the IMA and batteries that "cannot be repaired at this time." So why continue to manufacture and sale them?
So, I don't know. Is code 1445 electrical or do I really need a battery?
I have been driving it since the Honda place wants $3600 to fix it The battery light came on a few days after the IMA stopped working. I got a new regular battery for the car, but the battery light still appeared whenever it was in park or at low revs..
So, is my problem electrical or do I really need new IMA batteries?
I first posted on Jan. 6, 2009 about my IMA light problem (message #52). The IMA light has remainded on continuously (except for the two Honda dealers that assessed the need for a new IMA and reset the light but it comes back on within days), the malfunction light came on months ago and my corner mechanic said both were related to my IMA battery "failure" and the malfunction light indicated an overheating IMA battery.
Well surprisingly to me (and my corner mechanic), the IMA and malfunction light remain on, I have NOT paid the $3500+ to have the IMA battery replaced AND my car still runs fine with no noticeable performance deterioration. Though I have noticed a little anomaly. The MPG indicator says my mileage has increased from around 45 mpg to about 49 mpg (last month or so), but in actuality I am getting about 42-44 mpg per tank full. Not a big issue.
Bottom line: I have driven since Jan. 6th (over 10 months) and driven over 20,000 miles and this 2003 HCH has not "blown up" or anything. The IMA batttery light and malfunction light are still on and I keep waiting for something serious to happen.
Since there are so many people that are having the same issue has anyone heard of a class action suit being brought against Honda?
I have a 2001 Insight. Without IMA, the car is decidedly pokey, but it will go if you give it gas. Without the IMA, it is still a lot quicker than my old Toyota Tercel (and so is an HCH without IMA).
"getting on the freeway is a safety concern, passing included"
Do you have any idea how much fuel economy you are willingly giving up by racing to get on to the highway?
Driven gently, a MT gen1 HCH can get 63mpg highway and a CVT can get 58 mpg. These are the numbers I have gotten on test drives. Gen2s are about the same economy as Gen1s. On the same road, I can get 80 in a MT gen1 Insight and 70 in a CVT Insight.
Here's the kicker: I get almost exactly the same numbers with the IMA battery disabled (about 5 mpg less). Why? Because I don't use the IMA battery much. Whenever it gets used, it has to be recharged (which costs mpg).
If you bought your HCH for economy or to be green, then you should start to drive it that way. Your battery also may settle down when you develop a light foot.
Meanwhile, I'll say it again: A recal-ing battery is the sign of a battery whose capacity is changing. It usually means that the battery is deteriorating, but it may only mean that it is adjusting to new driving habits. In some cases, an owner's new driving habits actually INCREASE the capacity of the battery.
According to fueleconomy.gov, the 2006 gets slightly better mpg than the 2003-2005 models. The 2006 is 93 HP while the gen1 cars are 85 HP (and the gen1 insights are 68 HP but weigh less).
If I can get 63 highway out of an HCH with an adjusted (new calculations) EPA rating of 38/45, why were you only getting 46 mpg out of a car that is now rated at 40/45? I even managed 53 in local traffic (20 mile loop on local streets in New York City).
I won't dispute the fact that your mileage has probably dropped significantly now that the battery is recal-ing, but that is because the car is applying a charge to the battery almost constantly. It does this to test it to determine the SOC (State of Charge). You cannot determine the amount of charge or capacity of NiMH batteries by measuring the voltage. You must add or remove charge and monitor how it reacts as you do so. That testing is a constant 4 bar regen which sucks out 5-10mpg.
I'm not disputing the fact that your battery is 95% likely to be failing right now. I was only telling you why Honda won't swap it out until it dies: because of that 5%, and because it has not yet failed. It costs them about $2000 plus labor to replace a battery and if 5% of them don't need it, they save an average of $100 per car. Also, people who rarely or sporadically drive their cars tend to have much shorter battery lifespans, so if they changed it right away, they might have to change it three times under warranty vs maybe only twice if they wait until it actually fails. I spoke to a gentleman today with a 2000 Insight with 30,000 miles on it whose second battery has died. What he didn't know until I told him was that he had one month left on his 10 year warranty (Insights have 10/150,000 warranties). He only drives the car occasionally, so he'll need another battery in 2-3 years.
In case you think that what your cars are doing are isolated incidents, look back here and on the insight central board and you'll see the exact same behavior from the gen1 Insights and Civics. The only difference is that your car is a few years newer, so they had these problems a few years before you did. (And gen1 Priuses have battery problems as well.)
Honda batteries seem to be lasting about 60,000-160,000 miles depending on how frequently the owner drives the car. Due to the nature of the gen1 Insights, they get driven a lot, so a large percentage of gen1 Insight owners have had batteries replaced. More and more 2003 HCH owners are having out-of-warranty battery problems as well.
It's the nature of the design. You can't keep 120 cells that are in series balanced. If you want to blame someone, blame Chevron. Chevron, until a few months ago, owned Cobasys who owned the patents on NiMH. Cobasys would not allow any cell larger than a "D" cell in capacity to be built, because electric cars would be in direct competition with Chevron's gasoline business.
Lithium will actually be worse. The lifespan of NiMH is up to 30 years, so a failed battery can be rebuilt and the bad cells swapped out and then keep running for many years. A lithium battery lasts for 10 years - max. At the end of that time, the battery is shot. The longest-lived chemistry is probably NiCAD, but it requires special handling to keep it healthy. NiMH is the most durable and forgiving of the three chemistries.
My current 06 HCH was my first hybrid purchase & it will be my last. My father-in-law purchased an 08 VW Jetta TDI & all I can say is WOW! Of course I'm doing more HWY driving these days so the TDI makes a good deal more sense given it has 240 lbs of torque, is a diesel that will go for 300k miles without blinking or needing a new $3k battery pack every 80-100k, & gets 38 MPG overall. I know VW has had some reliabilty issues but the new TDI's are rated very high. And you have to appreciate a car who's initial MPG estimates were 29/40 & owners have always consistantly been getting higher averages (new ratings went up to 30/42). Unlike the HCH which when I purchased it had ratings of 51/49 MPG... which is a joke as the new 40/45 is quite a bit more realistic overall.
And not to mention the lack of power when using cruise control produces 5,000-5,500 RPM's to get uphills. Since most HCH owners do city driving, they don't ever have to engage their cruise control to experience this design flaw. But this is a MAJOR design flaw & deal breaker for me. Having to listen to such high, mind numbing RPM sound is not ok...not to mention the long term effects this will have on the engine (premature engine failure for sure). The HCH is not a car for anyone who does any amount of HWY driving. CITY driving ONLY & this car can make sense for people in major metro areas like NYC, Boston, etc where CITY driving is all you will ever do. Otherwise, buy one of the many regular gasoline cars that get decent gas mileage...cause the Hybrid simply isn't worth the added expense on the lot, battery replacement, & hassle. A Hybrid will not save you money after it's all said and done....you will get to drive around in an under powered civic with a "Hybrid" badge on the back though!!!!!
I got those figures by simply puttering along at 50mph on the highway (the speed limit here), and driving 30 on local streets (also the speed limit) and accelerating gently and braking gently. I drove it like it was an AMC Pacer and I didn't use the AC. I also kept the revs below 2500 on initial launch from lights and below 2000 the rest of the time.
Now it has been proven that cruise control cannot return the same mileage as not using it - to the tune of 3-5 mpg so keep that in mind when you drive.
Let me give you an example of how driving style affects mpg. I drove from NYC to Iowa, around Wisconsin, down to DC and back home last July on about 50 gallons of gas. I was driving 75 mpg and using the AC some of the time. I also had nine batteries in the car by the end of the trip (overloaded by 600 lbs). I averaged 60.5 for the 3,050 mile all-highway trip. When I drive 50-55 with the AC off, I get 75-80mpg.
How fast are you driving when you get 45mpg highway?
The result? 19.8 mpg overall for the trip with a peak of 22.3 on the highway. The car is EPA rated 16/23 with a median of 18.
My wife has a lead foot, I do not. Her minivan is so un-aerodynamic, that it's almost impossible to go over EPA without working at it. Honda's hybrids are a different story. By nature, they will perform significantly better than EPA when driven with a feather touch.
The HCH was taken to a Honda dealership (not where I purchased the HCH) and it was determined that a software update was needed. A couple of days later the software was uploaded to the vehicle. Within a couple of days from that upload, the battery would start to recall at a countdown (bars: 6,5,4,3,2,1). When departing from work in the morning, the recall once again began, I accelerated to merge on the highway and the IMA light illuminated in addition to the engine light.
The engine light would remain on at every start and the IMA light would illuminate a few minutes after. I took the HCH in to the same dealership and it was determined that a replacement battery pack would need to be ordered for replacement. The battery pack was replaced and it seems to have corrected the problem but just the other day my battery did a recall. The battery charge dropped to one bar and once again I did not have electric motor assist to merge on to the highway. The charge did eventually reach 4-6 bars after a couple of minutes in which assist was available.
My mileage has been between 40-50mpg throughout this whole event. This thread has been very educational on the IMA/battery issues.
It sounds like these batteries are crap. I am wondering why Honda hasn't corrected this problem since it sounds like it has been going on for several years. Interestingly, they keep selling a lot of these cars. This does not seem to be a very well-publicized problem. I was not aware of it when I bought the car and probably would not have bought the car if I had known beforehand of this problem.
About a month ago our IMA light came on. We took it to Honda and they did the software update. A couple days later when the car was first started, the battery would drop to one bar and would start charging after driving about 3 miles.
We took it back to honda and they replaced the battery. However now it only charges up to 6 bars and occasionally charges to 7,8. Now it get 40mpg at 55mph. Honda says it is operating normally for both battery and mpg.
Although, after reading thru this thread I am considering trading it in - bad acceleration and so-so mileage? Sheesh. This thread is 190 messages long, 122 pages in a word document. I wonder if Honda would like me to distribute it to their showroom customers!
So, After the upgrade, my MPG dropped from 35-38, down to 29-32. This is a big drop. And, very sluggish acceleration. Besides the "upgrade", nothing's changed; my driving habits, and the way I go to work, etc.. Also, before the upgrade, I could drive 2 and-a-half weeks on a full tank. Now, it's down to 1 and-a-half weeks, so I buying gas more often, just like a regular Honda Civic. Hmmmm, somethng to ponder.
No one still hasn't responded much, last month Honda charged me $175 for the software upgrades. Some say they got it for free. Did Honda screw me over for charging me for the upgrades? Did they charge others?
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1. Is it okay (safe) drive the car without the hybrid battery connected?
2. We've got the IMA overheating code...is there any threat of engine fire from driving withOUT disconnecting the IMA
3. What's the chance of trading this in without the dealer detecting the IMA overheating issue? I'm guessing slim to none which would affect trade-in value.
The software upgrade was covered under my warranty. I am curious if Honda preset the check engine light to go on every set number of miles so you have to take it in for service. Guaranteed business?? I am going to watch the car closely for a week and see if the mpg and peppiness change. Also, is anyone having problems with the driver’s side window going out of its tracks? I was told by the dealer that this was a common problem and that new tracks were being ordered to fix it.
We need to keep pressure on Honda about this...my mileage is now no better than it was with my Toyota Scion....
It was actually quite scary.
I really need to vent in how disappointed I am with Honda Motor Company and my 06 Civic Hybrid. I have been in the automotive industry and employed by a domestic manufacturer in the technical end of things for over thirty years and I have never been so frustrated with the lack of lack of customer service and product reliability by the once almighty and powerful Honda Corporation.
The only reason we purchased this automobile is so my wife that I love dearly could drive in the rideshare lane by herself to and from work on the busy Southern California freeways. Of course the mileage helps with gas at the price it is at but that is secondary. About 1 1/2 years into our ownership my wife had concerns about a lack of power, low battery state, and forced regens. This was going on during the hot socal summer and I started working with my dealer on this concern but I was advised all is normal.
To make a long story short and after many dealer visits we are at the 3 1/2 year ownership point. I have bought my wife a Escape Hybrid to drive because I do not feel safe or confident with her in the Civic trying to drive on the freeway and losing the battery, you might as well be driving in deep sand, very unsafe! I have had all the updates, patches, reflashes done and the car is still miserable to drive. I did meet with the Honda Parts and Service Director for our area to voice my concerns and he listened to my concerns and said all we need is a IMA light to come on and we could replace the IMA battery, sweet!
We left for a trip to Arizona last week and the Honda sat all week as we took our Escape on the trip. When we arrived home I jumped in the Honda to go to the grocery store and as usual instead of using the IMA motor to start the engine the standard starter cranked her over and the engine started but to my great surprise the IMA light came on! I was never so happy to see a light come on. I plugged in my scan tool and pulled a P0A7F "IMA Battery Deterioration" and went to the dealer right away praying the light would stay on which it did. The dealer took it in and to my surprise I recieved a call later in the day that Honda would not replace my battery but install another patch and give that a try.......
I picked up the vehicle the next day and lost all battery power within 1 mile of the dealer and the vehicle performed a regen. It also still uses the standard starter motor to start the engine. I let the dealer know and they said nothing can be done unless the IMA light comes back on.
Sorry again for the long letter but it has been a long 3 1/2 years of ownership of a vehicle that was produced by a once great manufacturer. I have owned many previous Honda's over the years and stil have 3 Honda motorcycle's. It appears there are many other folks in the same boat as I am.
Have a Merry Christmas, Jack