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>The recal procedure only takes 2-3 minutes. During that time, you have no assist or regen or autostop (because it is testing the battery and won't let you use it and mess up the test).
Do you consider recals resulting in no assist a safety issue? Seeing you wrote it ONLY takes 2-3 minute I guess you don't but I do and have submitted a complaint to the National Highway Transportation Safety Agency twice. I was having only 1 or 2 bars of charge every morning and experiencing a recal numerous times a day but Honda said I had no problem. I filed a complaint against Honda through the Better Business Bureau Auto Line and the arbitrator's decision was that my 07 HCH-II was a lemon and Honda repurchased my vehicle. One reason for the decision was the numerous recals I was having and it was declared a safety issue.
However, I RARELY lost assist until this summer and now am losing it EVERY time I drive the vehicle. I paid $24238 for my car in 2008 and they are offering me $11000 trade in.
How frustrating to have something covered under warranty that they refuse to fix!
I will be filing a safety report with NHTSA for starters.
I think the car probably performs pretty much as designed - and almost amazingly well given Las Vegas summer temperatures. However, after previously driving a BMW 3 Series, I'm concluding over time that I may just not be a Hybrid person and I do miss more performance.
I'm thinking (later in the year) of trading it on a VW Golf Turbo-Diesel BUT FEAT THE MAINTENANCE COSTS - as I had a 1978 VW Sciraco that was nothing but maintenance problems (BIG TIME). So, before I dump my very reliable little Civic Hybrid, I'm doing some serious thinking. Mine is under warranty until the end of April.
PS: anyone have any opinions of Golf TDI and reliability and maintenance costs after warranty and free maintenance period vs. Civic Hybrid.
http://www.jsonline.com/business/100169499.html
I'll wait to see how it does for a few weeks before saying it was a success, but, at least for me, this solved my immediate issues.
P.S. Longer term this did scare me off the battery/hybrid technology. I have a 2011 Golf TDI coming in a few weeks.
My question:
Should I pass on getting the software update in hopes of trashing out the battery while it's still under warranty? I just turned over 64,000 miles.
I am disappointed.
I've a Jetta 2009 SW TDI. There are some potential issues with the DSG and fuel lines, but these seem to be covered under warranty. The Golf would be very similar but smaller. On the TDI forum there are only a few issues so far, check there.
I've also a 2004 Civic Hybrid with about 70,000 miles. It's been reliable, just every time it goes to the dealer it's $300. That's about once or twice a year
There is a WORLD of difference between a Civic Hybrid and a TDI. Beyond the fact they both get about 40 mpg there is no similarity.
On my 2004 Civic I'd have to flip up the floormat, put my feet down to the road and "Flintstone" it to speed up. No acceleration.
On my Jetta I left rubber often until I learned to tone it down, and I've the DSG.
Torque abounds. I've filled it to the brim with tools and luggage, drove down to Mississippi at about 75MPH and got about 44mpg. The only reason I own the Civic is to take advantage of HOV lanes.
Having said that, the car in it's current state of IMA performance will not give the next owner such a good experience. If the Honda dealer were smart, they would insist on replacing the battery under warranty right now before the re-sell it. But that is no longer my issue!
I'm still getting about the same mileage. I average around 43 with normal tires and normal to fast driving...
TDI is interesting to me too. A couple of concerns - I had a new 1978 Schiraco and it was NOTHING BUT PROBLEMS - I mean BIG TIME. A/C, Electrical, valve stem seals and oil consumption. WE HAD TO SELL IT. I still see electrical, transmission, etc. complaints on VW boards and it brings back bad memories. JD Powers and others rates VW's generally around a 5 on reliability - not good compared to Japanese brands. I also called VW on brake jobs - ala BMW - looks like they replace brake rotors instead of machining them - makes for VERY expensive brake jobs.
I might also be interested in the new Civic coming in the summer of 2011 I believe. There's no perfect solution it seems. I think Honda's low maintenance costs can't be beat.
At that point I took it to the dealer who basically told me that there were no codes in the system but there were 3 software updates, so they installed those and that if I still had the problem, to come back. Of course, I still have the problem so I schedule the appointment for a time where I'm SURE the battery will 'recal.' I take the mechanic for a test drive and he sees the charge drop rapidly and states that it's completely NORMAL. I tell him, yes, but every 100 miles?!? He says, yeah.
About 3 weeks later the IMA light and check engine light come on. Turns out, it was a blown fuse (for the A/C electric drive, #22) so they replace it, and tell me that they checked the current draw on the A/C just to be safe and claimed everything was fine.
Now, EVERY TIME I START THE CAR IT DOES A RECAL. This is beyond annoying and I'm starting to see drops of about 3 mpg because of this problem.
I'm thinking that Honda knows that their NiMH cells are prone to premature failure and will not do anything to fix the issue. Since the dealer won't replace the battery without one of those stupid DTCs, regardless of any problems I'm having, I'm thinking of doing it myself with some Headway LiFePO4 cells. They're half the price of Honda's pack, have MORE storage capacity in the same volume, are HALF the weight, and are nearly 100% charge efficient (NiMHs are 66.6% charge efficient). However, the car is a lease and I really don't see why I should invest in new batteries.
Today the I drove 30 miles to work, trying to charge whenever possible. Parked at 11:00am with 6 bars. Got in the car at 7:00 pm to go home and had 2 bars with no assist.
ALSO, my current average MPG has dropped to 37.
I had hoped to drive this car for 10 years! But if it needs a $4500 battery every 2 years.....well...forget it!
For that matter, how are you welding the cells together? Solder will flow at the 100 amp draw that is 20 bars of assist so they have to be welded.
No I do not. No more than when you deplete the battery while climbing a long hill.
Inconvenient and annoying, yes. Unsafe, no. The car's engine has more than enough power to run without the 10 hp of IMA assist.
Yours may have been too far gone to save - or not.
Please let us (or at least me) know how you do with it.
When I purchased my 07 HCH-II I remember the electric motor was rated at 20 hp, not the 10 you say it is. The ICE was rated at 110 hp. Yes the car runs with only 110 hp but why not just purchase a low powered car in the beginning. The regular Civic had 140 hp at the time and it weighed less than the hybrid. Would have had a/c when I wanted too. On average I bet the regular Civic got about 10/12 mpg less than the HCH-II and cost $5,000 less. A lot of gas could have been purchased.
If you lose your assist because you used all the energy in the battery climbing a hill then you are well aware that you have no assist available but when it happens randomly such as making a left turn with on coming traffic or merging into traffic then it can be a safety issue and a dangerous one. For the first 27 months I do not ever remember seeing a recal and then all of a sudden I was getting many daily and Honda said I had no problem. Even though I no longer have this vehicle I am still upset with Honda's attitude. It was a nice car for the first 27 months.
It takes 18-25 hp to drive the average car down the highway at 65 mpg. Probably about 20 for the civic and about 15 for the insight.
Are you driving so that sudden reduction in power will cause someone to hit you? A hybrid is not a sports car. You should not be driving it at it's limits.
I'm used to old cars. Old unreliable cars. I've had classic sportscars that could not be trusted not to stall if you punched the gas. I NEVER turn left when I've got traffic bearing down on me, nor do I punch it to try to squeeze in front of someone when merging. I live in the land of aggressive drivers (NYC) and it only adds a few seconds (not minutes) per trip to drive defensively.
I'm sorry that you had battery issues, but as I explained before, technically nothing is wrong until the IMA light comes on. Someone further up this post is seeing his recals go away.
Good luck with that - seriously. The industry word is that every car made by 2018 or so will be electric or hybrid.
Mercedes has an S-class hybrid
Porsche has a hybrid
Ferarri has a Hybrid!
And VW had a Hybrid Diesel Rabbit in 1987 that was very similar to Honda's IMA system. They never brought it to the US because of the problems getting the emissions to work with the diesel and the electric motor.
Very recent, like this week? We've been talking about it here. Two others report better mileage and power with it. Did you have any previous updates done?
Try to keep track of your battery gauge. It appears you will experience normal power and mileage when it is half full or so, but Honda restricted use of the battery when it is depleted (to improve battery life). If you're regularly driving it empty, then you will see a reduction in power.
If you had it done a couple weeks ago, then have the latest one done.
BTW, according to Honda, this latest update doesn't address the 2009+ cars because they are already running it. We'll see if that's true or not later on.
That may be true but in my opinion the current HCH-II is equivalent to the Model A Ford and with all of us owners of a Honda Civic Hybrid acting as beta testers the hybrids in 2018 may actually be a reliable vehicle but it isn't now.
My question is why? Is the battery incapable of being charged? Is it being discharged at a rate that won't let it charge?
The gauge is supposed to adjust it's range so that the most the battery can hold shows full and the least shows empty. From others' reports here, it is still working that way, so I'm guessing one of two things: the gauge was not properly calibrated by the dealer (and you haven't recal-ed yet), or your battery showed strong during the calibration and is not now.
You can recalibrate it yourself. Make sure you have your radio security code and then disconnect your 12v battery for 20 seconds. Reconnect it and start the car. You will see 4 bars of regen. Hold down the throttle so that the car is revving at 3500 rpm and turn off the AC. After about a minute to a minute and a half, you should see battery bars appear. Hold the throttle until either the 4 bars of regen go out or the battery gauge stops climbing. Then let go of the throttle and take the car for a test drive.
If this works, the gauge will range normally and you will have your assist back (except when the battery is low).
Please let me know how this works.
My car is a 2008 Civic with 23000 miles since new.
I do miss the power of my BMW 3 series but I personally think the car is performing like the Hybrid it is. Honda here (Findley) has been providing very good service - replaced glazed brake pads free and steam cleaned the engine compartment free with my recent software upgrade.
I'm still happy with the low fuel costs and low maintenance costs. Would I buy another Hybrid - I'm not sure?
I'm due to bring my 06 HCH Friday for the update but now I'm getting cold feet after reading about problems some of the owners are getting following the update. I've driven the car mostly on highway, and never noticed any problems with the battery, it seems to charge normally.
My mileage has dropped to 45 mpg since I switched to better riding tires.
I'm interested to know more about the calibration procedure you mentioned in your posting.
Doesn't the computer takes over and override the procedure.
I'm wondering if I should hold on the update and see what happens. My wife did mentioned that the bars dropped down to one once at the traffic stop. :confuse:
I decided to drive my last tank of gas at the speed limit (or close) and got 46mpg. This is with Yokohama YK520 tires. When I started using these tires, my mileage dropped 2 or 3 mpg.
So if any of you are getting crappy mileage do this:
Try to keep your RPM's between 2000 and 3500 rpm. You get very little acceleration benefit above 3500rpm and it really starts sucking gas...
Of course, AC sucks significant mpg's (my experience is about 3-5mpg).
That's where we differ. I don't think it is defective behavior. Due to my work with these cars, I have a great deal of knowlege about what is going on behind the scenes when you see behavior "A" or behavior "B" and it isn't necessarily what you think it is. I do think that Honda is caught between a rock and a hard place here, because the original programming which produced the original feel of the car is now known to be bad for the batteries when used in certain ways. So their only choices are to try to fix the problem (which affects the performance of the car) or leave it alone and have people screaming at them with dead batteries that are just outside of warranty. Let's not kid ourselves - they have plenty of dead batteries inside warranty as well, so they're looking to cut those losses as well.
Still, two people here report that the latest software release seems to be improving mpg and fixing their batteries at the same time, so maybe they've hit on something good.
> I have read post after post after post stating the thing is hopelessly under powered when the assist is gone
Put 5 adults and luggage in your car and it's about the same as a hybrid without assist. With assist, the hybrid is more nimble than yours. You can decide for yourself if that is "hopelessly" underpowered. It IS significantly less and is a real slap in the face, but the car still moves.
> Well it isn't a sports car so don't drive it like one". Sorry, not good enough!
As far as I know, every US owner took a driving test from a state that teaches and encourages defensive driving. Why people should feel that they don't need to continue those practices after getting their licenses is beyond me. The car doesn't stall when it regens, you just have to put your foot down harder. If you were using the entire gas pedal already to make a left turn, then you should really re-evaluate your driving habits. That kind of driving CAUSES accidents, mostly to the poor people coming the other way as they try to avoid the car that is cutting them off.
> I find myself in situations from time to time (and not always through my lack of pre-planning before making a move) where the need for the ability to get out of ones own way is more than useful it is crucial.
I agree, but can't you just stomp on the gas? Any hybrid owner that regularly uses full throttle acceleration (note that I said "regularly") is not getting the benefits of the car that they bought. They are killing their gas mileage.
> So, on this alone the car is dangerous
No, it is not.
> not to mention the frustration
Now that is something that I'm in full agreement with you about. The people here have every right to be angry about the annoyance of the changes in performance. They need to continue to raise hell about it - AFTER they completely understand what is going on, not just in a vauge way. If the latest update results in a loss of power when the car is being driven conservatively (when the battery is more than 4 bars), then they need to make their situations known.
But complaining about lack of assist at 2 bars when the documentation clearly told you that this was what would happen is not constructive and will not get anything accomplished. Perhaps the next release will be better at keeping the battery more full, but that will negatively impact mileage. The software is walking a thin line. There are a range of drivers with a range of styles. Some will fall outside of what the software can do, but if they make it more restrictive, the others (the majority) will be negatively impacted. There are something like 300,000 HCH cars and if all of the drivers were having these problems, it would be front page news across the country.
Lastly, recals are bad. I hate them. Everyone hates them. Frequent recals are usually the sign of an impending failure. They are not, however, a failure. They are an attempt by the car to avert a failure. People don't realize this and assume that the effect is the cause. They are extremely annoying, but dangerous? It might reduce the performance, but it'll still outperform many production econoboxes of today and yesteryear.
It could be far worse. In a 97-99 Prius (international spec) when the car detects a similar problem, it limits the car to 10 miles per hour. THAT would be extremely dangerous if it happened in traffic. In a later model Prius cars, it won't even let you start the car with some failures.
Just my opinion.
Now back to helping anyone who wants it.
> I'm not very mechanically inclined and not comfortable attempting the recal process myself.
Perhaps a neighbor or a car-saavy person could do it for you.
>I don't know what a radio security code is or what to do with it.
Your radio has an anti-theft feature. When the battery is disconnected (like it would be if the radio was stolen) the radio locks up and will not work until you punch in the correct 5 digit code. This code is unique to your car and should be in your owners manual.
Okay, but from my experience, the gen 1 cars (2000-2006 Insight, 2003-2005 Civic, 2005-2007 Accord) are extremely reliable. They need battery work every 120,000-160,000 miles on average, but that isn't exactly the end of the world. The catalytic converter lasts about the same amount of time and costs somewhere around the same to fix.
The newer cars are mostly still under warranty, so I can't draw any conclusions - yet.
I had a customer last week with a 2003 (a totally different car from yours) that did the relearn at idle, and his car only would show 4 bars of battery despite me shipping it to him full. It didn't affect his performance because the 2003 has different software and has no electric AC or electric-only mode. He re-did the relearn and got the full 19 bars (2003-2005 cars will almost never show the 20th bar).
My car (2006 EX sedan w/auto) has 140 hp and while a full load will probably effect the performance it will never be as slow as the hybrid version with and especially, without assist...never! Further, you espouse safe driving and while I'm all for that have you been out in the real world lately? 6 out of 10 drivers don't give a crap about what is safe or even sane so YOU better be able to compensate for their idiotic moves and if the vehicle you end up with won't respond quickly enough then however safe you are just doesn't matter. I did not respond to you to start something but to simply say that hybrid owners should not have to put up with all this just because they bought the car for economy, so they should forever drive accordingly. Real world situations demand some small amount of response from the car and if this car cannot routinely deliver that then it IS unsafe. Oh, when I bought my gas Civic in 06 I took a hybrid version for an extended test drive and even brand new, in a back-to-back test drive with a gas Civic it never impressed me as being the super car you think it is. Adequate when brand new with everything operating as it should but apparently with use it is less than adequate. So, back to helping for you and back to lurking for me.
You are missing the point that I am agreeing with you that the car is not working the way it did when it was sold and that people should be angry and should be taking legal action, but I disagree that it is unsafe and that it is defective now. I feel that the original software was defective in terms of allowing damage to the battery system. I'm not trying to claim that it is correct now, but they have addressed that problem. Now if they can get it usable for the remaining percentage of the owners, everyone will be satisfied.
You say that you'd better compensate for idiotic drivers moves. That is called driving defensively. Waiting until it is safe to turn left (a big enough gap) is a big one. Why? Not because the car might stumble, but any number of other things might happen. A pedestrian might decide to step out into your path, an animal might run out, a car parked at the corner might choose that instant to pull out, etc. Any of these things might leave you stopped blocking oncoming traffic. If you didn't wait for a safe gap, you're going to be T-boned, your passenger may be killed, and the oncoming driver may die. All because you're in a hurry?
If you've left an adequate gap, a sudden recal event or a low charge condition will still allow you to complete the turn without danger. This is why I disagree with it being a safety issue.
Hybrid owner buy a car for economy. Yes they have to drive it accordingly or they will never see the benefits. You don't buy a sports car to get good economy and you don't buy a hybrid to get a sports sedan.
Real world situations demand a response. The car can deliver even during a recal. It can deliver more than some other cars, BUT it can't deliver as much as the owners are used to.