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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I agree that the IMA battery problems is likely a combination of several factors that you mentioned, poor software, undersized battery, charging system, etc. The gas engine is also undersized and the batteries seem to wear out prematurely in hot weather.

    Is there a fix or is the Civic's design inherently flawed? If Honda eventually agrees to replace the IMA battery packs, will we feel like we have a reliable and safe car? We will still have the same gas engine and will be at the mercy of Honda's software upgrades. The new IMA batteries may work fine for 2-3 years but it could deteriorate in a few years especially for those who live in hot climates.
  • action21action21 Member Posts: 6
    The "Relay Switch" that I had replaced due to all lights coming on and car refusing to start and 12 v battery being drained was the A/C relay switch. Nothing to do with IMA but after 17 weeks in shop it took 1 mechanic 3 hours at another shop to diagnose this issue and I have driven over 70K miles since no problem. However, my IMA and check engine came on again - tried the relay switch and it looks like I'm replacing the IMA battery via Revolt online for $1262 instead of the $2700 the dealer wanted. I've been driving now 4 -5 months with check engine and IMA lights on and everything seems to be running fine - just do not want to press my luck- Civic has been a pretty good car although I'll never buy another hybrid again. Drove 5 hours from Charleston WV to E-Town Ky following my diesel moving truck and was shocked - 50MPG never got that before - guess I'd have to drive like an old lady which isn't going to happen so I' happy with my 32.5MPG at the way I drive.
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    edited November 2010
    That information helps. The loudness and location of the contact cycling sounds more like an A/C compressor clutch than a relay. Now to find a fuse and relay layout diagram to pinpoint the right relay. The owner's manual indicates fuses, but does not identify 11 of the relays and their function in the under hood fuse block.
    Also read in the owners manual that if the 12v battery goes dead or is disconnected, the IMA system will read lower than normal battery charge levels for up to 30 minutes of driving. Still hate the possible financial drain if the IMA battery pack is going bad.
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    Discovered that there is a molded in diagram on the underside of the fuse box cover. now time to sort out the relay part numbers, availability and start troubleshooting.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    My IMA battery was replaced and I wonder about the longevity too. Honda gives a 3 year 36K miles warranty on the replacement battery.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I wonder the same thing too. I have tried to trade it in several times, but with no luck. Overall, just really disappointed in the car and in Honda.
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    edited November 2010
    Now for part one of the troubleshooting. Failure to start the car appears to be a dead battery. I hook up a trickle charger,and immediately hear a contactor click, a sound similar to what I suspect is the A/C clutch. Cabin lights now on with the door open, and can start the car within one minute after hooking up the battery charger.
    So for that electrical question I need to figure out what logic to start the car needs the small boost from the charger.
    I checked all relays associated with the A/C that is in the fuse block under the hood, and they appear to be OK. The next item I will do for the following week is to turn off the A/C switch every time the car is shut down. Maybe there is some logic that is sensing the switch being left on, and this is operating the A/C clutch randomly with the ignition off, killing the 12v system.
  • kateikatei Member Posts: 1
    I have a Prius. I know there were some issues regarding its safety due to a major recall early this year. Mine haven't failed me ever since I bought it. And with regard to reliability, I am still banking on Toyota cars. Just sharing. Anyway, I also like to share this recent study:
    A new study by J.D. Power and Associates states that sales for electrical and hybrid automobiles can be slow for at least a decade. The report utilizes current sales of electric and hybrid vehicles as a starting point, which are a tiny portion of overall passenger autos sold worldwide. It is estimated that in 10 years, the sales won't grow significantly. The study projects that just over 7 percent of all sales worldwide could be hybrid or electrical by 2020.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    A big negative for hybrids. That is why I bought used, and I still got burned some because of the hybrid battery failure @ 90K miles.
  • lectricman52lectricman52 Member Posts: 10
    Sorry for the delay in replying. You can check posts # 45 and 65 in this same thread. My car was one of 5 "test vehicles" in the US. The previous battery was obviously failing, but the new battery did not help changed characteristics of the IMA system. I'm just glad to be rid of the problem.
  • lectricman52lectricman52 Member Posts: 10
    edited November 2010
    Sorry for the delay in replying. Concerning the trade that the dealer offered me, I got the Accord EX at dealer cost. I did my research and was able to see that I was paying invoice. In my opinion, the dealer offered me a decent trade-in price for a hybrid with 90k miles. The dealer just wanted to "get me off their back." The service manager was actually sympathetic with my problem. He was kinda stuck in the middle between Am Honda Corp and a customer. I think he did a good job of trying to fix the problem, but the problem couldn't be fixed because it is an inherent design defect. You might like to see my post # 65 in this same topic.

    Regarding the effectiveness of my complaints, I tried everything I could to try to get the attention of Am Honda and the dealer. I'm not sure how effective the NHTSA complaint was, but if a number of consumers were to file similar complaints I'm sure it would attract the attention of the govt. Am Honda did respond to my BBB complaint saying that the changed performance of the car was normal. I know that the dealer responded because of my complaints, but all I was able to accomplish was getting a good deal on a trade. I agree with you that the car suffers from engineering deficiencies.
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    After the first 24 hours of troubleshooting, the 12v battery is again dead (almost). Enough juice to get a weak dome light, and dim gauges. No electric door locks, no starter response. Started by pulling the relay for the A/C and blower fan. Still no start. Connected the charger and heard no relay/clutch click. Turn off charger, reinstall relays and turned on charger. A/C clutch clicked and turned off charger. Still no start, but still dim flickering gauge lights. Had another person turn on charger, and as soon as the gauge lights brightened and the gauge lights stopped flickering (about 30 seconds) car started.
    Tonight the car will set with the A/C compressor and blower relays removed. WIll see if that changes things.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    It's physically possible to reinstall the old software, but the dealers don't have it. That's why they can't do it.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    That is scary.

    Did the car give any indication that the 12V battery was not being charged or that the IMA system was not functioning? Normally, the IMA light will come on with the battery symbol just like in a standard car when the alternator fails. When the 12V battery finally dies, the dash lights and gauges start to flicker and reinitialize a minute or so before the engine dies.

    If none of that happened, then something else is going on here and it may not have anything to do with the Hybrid battery.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    I think the effect on the car would be comparable to carrying the weight of a couple passengers or going up a slight (very slight) incline.

    The change in speedometer accuracy will affect the accuracy of the mpg gauge for the purpose of calculating the mpg effect of the new tires, so they may be more than a "slight" loss of mpg, but that has no effect on the IMA system.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The electric motor is dead center between the engine and transmission. If you are hearing a relay with the car turned off, it may be the AC compressor relay and it should be changed ASAP as it will drain your 12V battery if it sticks on.

    Your other symptoms sound like a P1449 error, but you should have an accompanying check engine light as well. Please feel free to contact me privately and I'll help you track down what is going on. It is possible that you have a wiring problem to the dash.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    What do you want to know? 2003-2005 have 120 cells, 2006+ have 144 cells. Each cell is 6.5Ah @ 1.2v nominal. The packs are about 3/4 Kw. Prius packs use more cells and are about 1.5 Kw.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The ac relay that can become stuck on will drain the 12V battery with the AC off and the key out.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    You mentioned that the 2009-10 Civics had a different type of battery than the 2006-8 which gave the 2009-10 more power or better reliability? I assume the 2009-10 are still using NiMH but a better one?
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    My understanding is Honda constructs the replacement battery packs from existing battery packs that are wrecked or unused. But somebody said that the 2009 Civics have better batteries so could the replacement batteries for pre 2009 be new and better than what we had?

    The length of Honda's warranty on the replacement battery is not a good sign -3 years? That means you would have to fork out for a new set if they give out after the 3 years. And we've found out that Honda won't replace them unless the IMA light is on even if it is clear they are going
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    I fault the design of the battery. It is not possible to maintain 120 or 144 cells in series for the long term. As the cells age, their impedance changes, and more of the load transfers to the lower impedance cells which are worn out faster. This is why they can be fixed. Replace the bad cells and you're good to go.

    The Prius gets around this by only using about 40% of the battery's capacity while Honda uses 60%. The Gen-II Prius use less cells than the Gen-I Prius but they amplify the voltage to make it usable. The 2010 Insight and the CR-Z use 84 cells which should stay balanced longer. Than the earlier models.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    I'm not certain, but I believe the 2006-2010 all use the same identical battery - the same way 2003-2005 Civic are the same and 2000-2006 Insight are all the same.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Honda takes back a pack every time they replace one. These are remanufactured into replacement packs.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I fault the design of the battery. It is not possible to maintain 120 or 144 cells in series for the long term. As the cells age, their impedance changes, and more of the load transfers to the lower impedance cells which are worn out faster. This is why they can be fixed. Replace the bad cells and you're good to go.

    If this is true, and I am not doubting it, then there will always be a problem with these cars. There is not a permanent fix. Isn't this the thing that class action law suits are made of? Anyone remember the class action lawsuit against GM for the diesels it made in the late 70's and early to mid 80's? The settlement required GM to repair these cars free up to 100K miles because there was no permanent fix. These cars generally begin to fail around 30K miles and every 30K miles thereafter. Maybe the Civic hybrid is not as bad, but it is the same principle. Wonder if any of those lawyers are still around and need work.

    Of course the bottom fell out of the resale values of the GM diesels and people that did not mind the inconvenience of continuing repair bought them for a song. These were mostly Oldsmobiles, but also included Pontiacs, Chevrolets, and a few Buicks and Cadillacs. All the engines were made by GM's Oldsmobile division.

    Is this food for thought?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    What is your definition of "permanent"? 100k miles? 200k?

    Nothing lasts forever. The batteries are covered for 80K (or 150K in CA) miles. What is acceptable? 120k? 160k?

    The gen-I Civics that I see are all high mileage (lots of highway) cars because all the rest are still under warranty. The 2003-2005 batteries seem to last either 90k or 120k or 160k. I think 160k is a reasonable life for a battery, don't you?

    Honda's changed software should push all the non-damaged (not previously damaged) batteries up to at least an 80K life.

    The reason that the 2006+ Civics are having more problems is twofold. 1: the car is heavier than the 2003-2005 Civic and 2: there are 10% more cells in series.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    edited November 2010
    What is your definition of "permanent"? 100k miles? 200k?

    Nothing lasts forever. The batteries are covered for 80K (or 150K in CA) miles. What is acceptable? 120k? 160k?

    I don't have a definition. I was just pointing out that in the GM class action suit they used 100K miles for free repair. I don't know what the average failure millage is for the gen-2 Civics, but it seems that these hybrid battery problems are occurring often at less than 80K miles. Unfortunately, mine occurred at 90K miles. Since this type failure affects performance drastically, maybe it should be at least 150K.

    I think 160k is a reasonable life for a battery, don't you?

    Perhaps. However, expectations of engine life these days is from 200K to 300K miles. Since this car is dependent on the battery for proper performance, maybe it should be higher.

    Honda's changed software should push all the non-damaged (not previously damaged) batteries up to at least an 80K life.

    That's great for Honda, but no one else. To me that is unacceptable and is not really a fix for the design deficiency you cited.
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    I removed both the A/C compressor and blower relays on Monday afternoon. Car started OK Tuesday morning. I am giving it another night and will check it in the morning. If the 12v is still OK tomorrow, I will replace the blower relay. If it goes another day after that with no problems, then it is off to Autozone for a replacement relay ($13.99). Would like to get an OEM, but cannot make it to the dealer after work.
    The relay appears to be interchangable between five others in the fuse box, but don't want to mess up another system by switching them around.
  • jack000jack000 Member Posts: 16
    I know I've posted this elsewhere in the forum, but I feel like this is the most frequented topic and I'm most likely to get help here.

    When I tried to start my car tonight, the green key light on the dash starts blinking and the car doesn't start. (light blinks many times for a few minutes, when I turn the key to the lock (0) position, it blinks 8/9 times and turns off)

    I check my handy dandy service manual, follow what troubleshooting steps I could (since I don't have all the equipment the garage does), all to no avail. Double checked all the fuses, they were fine. The car locks/unlocks fine, but as soon as the key is in the ignition slot, the car doesn't lock or unlock from the fob.

    Is there any way to fix this without having my car towed to the dealer? (probably not, as my ECU probably needs to be reprogrammed).

    Oh, and I just had my car looked at YESTERDAY by the dealer because my mpg went from 55 to 34 (Yes, I was getting 55) because the damn IMA would recalibrate every morning (my guess is the ECM would lose track of the battery voltage as it dropped overnight)

    Coincidence? Hmmm
  • jack000jack000 Member Posts: 16
    Problem resolved. I called the dealer, the service advisor told me to lock the car, leave it locked for 5 minutes, then unlock it MANUALLY with the key slot in the door and then try starting the car. Voila! car started!
  • jack000jack000 Member Posts: 16
    Never mind, after that one time the car started, it never started again. Tried the steps the SA mentioned, didn't work. Now I need to call roadside assistance tomorrow to have my car towed to the dealer.

    I'm now sincerely scared to take my car anywhere. What happens if I get stranded?
    If this problem happens one more time, I'll pull out the lemon law. The prius seems like a better engineered car, which isn't saying much for the prius, since the HCH was obviously designed by engineers who got their "Degrees" online. With all the battery problems... I can't WAIT to get rid of this car!
  • munkegodesmunkegodes Member Posts: 6
    edited November 2010
    I own a 2007 HCH with ~34,000 miles on it. I live in SW Ohio where temperatures can range from 90+ and humid in the summer or below freezing in the winter (and, 30+ degree temperature swings in a single day are normal). The first 2 years of ownership I drove mainly highway and averaged ~45mpg. In the past year I've driven mainly local and only averaged ~36mpg. Needless to say I've been less than thrilled with my recent mileage performance.

    On Monday the IMA and check engine lights came on but did not notice any differences in car performance. I called the dealer and made an appointment to get it checked out a couple days later (lights stayed on) and the car returned code P0A7F.

    From reading on the internet I guess this means that my battery is degraded. Honda's fix was to load the new software update (which, I had been avoiding given the mixed reviews I was reading on this forum). The guy at the dealer told me that this should fix the problem and they tested the car and is performing as expected. I've only driven it a little so far and don't really notice any differences. Doesn't seem like the car is charging as much and continues to lose charge quickly (my morning commute is about 1 mile, 5 mins drive. From overnight park appears 3/4 full but by the time I get to work it is only 1/4 full.).

    Any advice on what to expect? Should I expect battery failure soon? I find it hard to believe that if my car is registering battery degredation (ie: hardware problem) that a software patch is going to fix it...
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    My battery started discharging frequently last June and I got the software upgrade in August. The software upgrade has not fixed the problem and the upgrade has made the performance worse with more frequent discharges, and slower and more uncertain acceleration. I have not had on the IMA or check engine light for the entire time.

    The software upgrade on your car may prolong the IMA battery's life but the check engine and IMA light signify to me that your battery is substantially gone and that the check engine and IMA light will come on again fairly soon. You will have a stronger case to make to Honda to replace your IMA battery. But who knows how long this could take and how much Honda will drag its feet?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I went though the same process, only at much higher milage. The software upgrade did not fix the problem and about a month later the battery was replaced and everything seems to be fine now with good milage and performance.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Did your IMA light go on? Did Honda replace your battery and did you have to battle with them?
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Do the 84 cell battery packs have any more capacity than the longer cell series? Would it be possible to use the 2010 Insight/CRZ battery pack or construct one with less cells for the 2006-9 Civics? Do you think the 84 cell battery would be a big improvement?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    IMA light went on before the software upgrade but not afterward. Had to open a case with Honda to get them to cover half the battery cost since I was a few thousand miles out of warranty.
  • spankyincspankyinc Member Posts: 1
    IS THE WARRANTY ON THE 2005 CIVIC BATTERIES 80k ?
  • vidarvidar Member Posts: 18
    edited November 2010
    Been troubleshooting the problems on the Civic Hybrid. Good results. With the A/C compressor relay removed and the blower fan relay reinstalled, no dead 12 v battery from sitting overnight, for testing for over a week now. No IMA fault lights, ABS or battery faults. Also, the car has 750+ miles on the trip odometer, at mostly interstate speeds, and the mileage indicates 50.1 mpg. Previously, with relays installed and the A/C turned off on the dash panel, mileage at best had degraded to around 43 mpg. So that indicates that the relay was randomly cutting in and out hurting mileage all along.
    I will hook up a volt meter on the relay signal contacts to check on the possibility of random voltage, and not just assume that the relay is bad.
    As an OBTW, I have never gotten the software update that Honda offered free up until June 2010 as a voluntary 'recall'.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited November 2010
    "That's great for Honda, but no one else. To me that is unacceptable and is not really a fix for the design deficiency you cited."

    Think more long term. The first 2003 Civics are now coming off warranty for time not distance. 2000 and 2001 Insights are now too old. 80K is great for the person who drives 7K per year.

    From what I know of the updates, it should extend the life of a 15k per year driver to more like 150k (starting with an undamaged pack). It is helping some damaged pack come back to life. Others have problems that can't be corrected this way.

    The only problem is that it reduces the amount of charge that it allows the driver to use and that leaves some people with an empty battery when they wanted power.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    You'll have to wait it out. A P0A7F may respond to reconditioning which is what the software is sort-of doing. Your battery hasn't failed yet, the car has just notified you that it thinks it will. It will either improve, or it will code again and you'll get a new battery.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    They have much less capacity. The Insight and CR-Z are much lighter cars. Your car is designed for a 158V pack, not 100V.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Goodwill (1/2 price) is usually available for 5% of your warranty (4k miles Oman 80k warranty).
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Great! It was a simple (if obscure) problem that had nothing to do with the hybrid system. Check the ratings on the relay. You should be able to find an aftermarket one for $6 or so. A relay is a relay. It doesn't have to say Honda on top. It's probably a Bosch anyway.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    In most states it is 80K.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Ogre, now that I have both a new battery and the upgrade software, should I be good for another 150K miles? Mine failed at about 90K miles and I now have 94K miles on the car with everything seeming to work well. Honda only gives a 36K mile warranty on the new battery.
  • mparelmparel Member Posts: 3
    Hello all,
    I'm lost and simply don't know what to do about my problem. I purchased a new civic hybrid in August 2007. I'm a retired teacher, not driving much. The IMA light came on in October 2008 at 2096 miles with code P0A7F. The module was replaced. Now, December 2010, the light is on again. The 3 year warranty on the car is up but I'm only at 4880 miles. Will honda pay for another IMA replacement because of the low miles? I've read elsewhere that this can cost as much as $3000. I cannot afford this every 2 years and really thought I'd have this car forever. Thoughts please and thanks.
  • motorcarshybrdmotorcarshybrd Member Posts: 7
    Trade the car and get a gas engine Ford. That is what I did and I could not be happier. Mine was still UNDER WARRANTY and I could not get help!
  • civic_dutycivic_duty Member Posts: 7
    I assume that the replaced "module" you mention was the battery pack? You should start with your dealer (you may already have done this); you are just barely off warranty, and your dealer and Honda should support you as though you were still in warranty. Your extremely light use of this vehicle may ironically be part of the problem (infrequent charging may not be adequate to keep the battery pack charged properly; if and when you do get another replacement, I'm sure you'll get lots of instructions about driving the car often enough to avoid deterioration of the batteries). If you don't get satisfaction from your dealer, ask for a contact with the regional Honda service manager and plead your case. If you're still unsuccessful, there's a process that you can use through the Better Business Bureau, I think (and it may be described elsewhere on this website). I would certainly consult with an attorney if these measures don't bring a resolution.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I think you should still be covered because the original warranty is for 8 years and 80K miles for this item. That should supersede the replacement part warranty.
  • suethebastardssuethebastards Member Posts: 4
    This is my problem with Honda. I say when the software update was installed and they did not extend the 80,000 warranty proportionately to the mileage that you had already on the car, before the update. Obviously the poorer gas mileage and lack of power to accelerate after the update was installed, Honda must be responsible. I am thinking of the pending hit my pocket book will take if the battery fails after the initial deal I made with Honda when I bought the car. I have a 2007 HCH with 60,000 miles on the car when the update was installed. I am now running this battery into the ground to make it fail before the 80,000.
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