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Domestics, Germans Fare Poorly In Latest CU Survey
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Comments
Any mediocre car that has none of the above is probably in deep trouble right now....
Probably a bad dealer network can suppress ratings to some extent, and could a sparse parts network. Perhaps this is why Lexus does as well as it does and why Benz doesn't.
The owners foots the bill, of course. It's a lot easier to replace something rather than fix the original, especially when you (Lexus) are not paying for it.
Most of the problems she had with it weren't the car's fault they were either her fault, 17-21 year old girls don't tend to be the best at keeping up with maintenance, or were someone else's fault. She ran into a couch that had fallen out of someone's truck in the middle of the highway and the AC never really worked right after that. Body repair on that car was fairly simple though as the fenders easily bolt off the side of the car and that exposes all of the suspension components.
The problem was that a headgasket failed at some point after the water pump failed. There really is no evidence to say the the overheating caused the headgasket failure. However, sometime after the water pump failure, the cooling system was low on coolant and called for more coolant. More coolant was added at the dealership, but this was not considered alarming at the time. After a bit more time passed (a few months?), the cooling system again asked for more coolant. This time the service department was alarmed, and it was determined that a head gasket needed replacement. The engine was torn down, but would not go back together because something was warped perhaps :confuse: - I really did not quite understand what was wrong, except that a new engine was needed. He is still driving the car. His wife is now very anti-Cadillac :sick:
I work for a company that supplies major parts to both Subaru and Toyota @ Lafayette and I can say that Subaru parts are better engineered and made with better materials than the Toyota parts. In our experience, Subaru parts are engineered to last the life of the car and Toyota are made to last a month past the warranty. I hope Subaru doesn't take any Toyota engineering advice. I know several people who work on Camry line in Lafayette that previously worked on Subaru that think Toyota quality is a joke.
BTW, we own a Subaru Tribeca but would not even consider a Toyota anything. I had a bad Toyota ownership experience in the '90's and vowed I would never go back. The Subaru hasn't been flawless but the dealership experience has made up for the small problems.
Not a lot of worry, just a lot of money. I can show evidence that an LS400 is not cheap to keep in top shape for many years. My wife bought hers when they first got here in 1989. It still runs like a champ. It cost many thousands of dollars to keep it running like a champ. It just went past 90k miles. We will keep it as a family loaner car after we buy a new luxury diesel SUV. I did notice a couple drops of oil on the garage floor the other day. Better take it in for the 90k mile service. NOT at a Lexus dealer though.
Have only owned one Toyota but had problems within two weeks of new purchase and dealer experience was a nightmare. Neither Toyota Regional Rep nor Dealer experience were acceptable.
The Toyota dealers in our area that I've had personal dealings with have been less than acceptable. The same Toyota dealer I bought my Truck from also operates a separate Subaru store and the dealership experience at Subaru store is totally customer oriented. There couldn't be a bigger difference between the two stores. The Toyota store is very high volume, high pressure and the Subaru store is very laid back and low key.
I understand that my engine failure in my truck may not be the norm, but the Regional Rep and Dealer experience guaranteed Toyota would never see my money again.
Wow - you're concerned about gas mileage in a $50,000 vehicle?
I agree that Toyota is thriving and Subaru is struggling for recognition. I do know that they are two completely different companies. Subaru quality is a cut above the Toyotas I have seen, IMO. To me Toyotas are a cold utilitarian piece of equipment that expresses no driving fun where Subaru has personality, even if it is quirky.
Every Subaru sold in NA is also a top safety pick, Toyota, I think not. I realize that not everyone cares about safety but it is a big deal to Subaru and I think they deserve the recognition for the effort.
These are just my opinions but I vote with my car dollars.
Um, not quite: to get the IIHS Top Safety Pick award, the car has to have stability control as at least an option. On most Subarus, only the higher line models have standard or optional ESC. Toyota's stumbling block in the safety arena has been head restraints (rear crash protection). They have a number of vehicles that get the highest rating of Good in both frontal and side crash tests, but it's the head restraints that fall short. But ESC is more widely available (and standard on all Toyota/Lexus SUVs and the Tundra).
The M-Class CDI would be on my short list if I were shopping for an SUV right now. I see Mercedes improving on quality recently. I think it matters on the model and equipment picked. We currently have.
2007 BMW 335i - No problems to date, 10k miles.
2006 Subaru Tribeca - Only minor issues, 32k miles.
2004 Mini Cooper S - Only 1 minor issue, 29k miles.
2000 Chevy Silverado - Several issues, replaced transmission
@ 60k miles currently has 75k miles.
Traded a 2005 BMW 325xi with 32k miles for the new 335i and that was the first car I have ever owned that I had ZERO problems with. Just the normal scheduled services which cost me nothing. Even the Mini Cooper which is suppose to be problem ridden has been all but one minor issue of being trouble free.
I typically avoid alot of optional electrical doo-dads which I do not need to add to my driving experience. This also lessons the potential problems as well.
My bad, you are correct, Here is the quote from Subaru website.
"In the 2007 IIHS awards, 13 car models were designated as Top Safety Picks**. Three belonged to Subaru—the Legacy, Forester, and Tribeca—the most awards of any single automotive brand."
Not to diminish their commitment to Safety 3 out of the 13 Best Picks is great for any company, especially when you consider how small Subaru is compared to Toyota. Has Toyota made side air bags and or head restraints standard on every vehicle yet?
What do you mean by standard head restraints? All cars must have them in front seats by federal standard, and most now have them at all seating positions. If you mean "good" head restraints according to the IIHS, there's only one Toyota to date, the Tundra, but I understand more are on the way.
As for side airbags, no, they're not standard on all Toyotas yet, just most of them, including the Camry, RAV4, Prius, and even the new Scion xB.
Really though, I have no bone to pick with Subaru. I think they make great cars, but IMO so do Toyota and Honda. (Plus my 9-year-old Nissan Frontier has been darn near bulletproof, but it IS a simple machine without all the fancy bells and whistles -- I even have to shift for myself and hand crank the windows!)
Sobering, if true. As a longtime admirer and defender of the Benz name, it depressed me...truly.
Same three Subaru models on there. I didn't see any Toyotas on this list either.
What do you mean by standard head restraints?
Sorry It's past my bedtime or something. I meant to say Seat mounted Side Air Bags as well as Side Curtain Airbags. My whole point is being BIG (Toyota / GM)doesn't make your product the best or safest. I'm not saying that Subaru is the best, just that they are making strides compared to their small niche market. they will never be able to compete with Toyota and doubt they want to.
BMW may not have made the top of the CU Survey but I would buy another one without pause. I also wouldn't think twice about buying a Porsche just because it didn't make the top either.
If Toyota and their dealer would have handled my engine failure differently in my truck, I would have probably given them another chance. Immediately after getting the engine replaced I traded it for a 1992 Isuzu Pickup and drove it 150k miles and only had minor issues. It was a complete stripper with crank windows, no pwr steering and no A/C but I enjoyed driving it more than wondering what was going to happen to my Toyota out of warranty. Toyota didn't lose me by their product alone. The dealer and regional rep treatment sealed that deal.
(Plus my 9-year-old Nissan Frontier has been darn near bulletproof, but it IS a simple machine without all the fancy bells and whistles -- I even have to shift for myself and hand crank the windows!)
Both of my BMW's and also the Mini Cooper are manual transmissions with manually adjusted seats. I prefer to keep things simple. I don't need all the fancy gadgets to add to the driving pleasure anyway. Less to worry about repair wise as well.
I will admit as I am able to own newer and newer MB, I run into more problems. My E55 has no mechanical issues, but it does have some other quirks which would be intolerable without the warranty I purchased.
Now the AC has crapped out after a recharge, and apparently it's either going to be a leak, or it'll need a new evaporator, which will not please the warranty people I am sure. This is a 30K mile car.
I bet a lot of these are W220 S class and some 6cyl E class along with early W211 cars which are known to be troublesome.
Well, if I sunk $5K into a car, I guess I would keep it but I'd never trust it again. How many miles did the car have on it? I believe the Northstar's supposed to have coolant that lasts 100K miles. I wonder how true this is in reality?
Realistically I think they are good for 50,000 miles or 3-4 years whichever comes first.
As you know, my family has owned several Subarus, and we just bought a Sienna (I wish Subaru offered a people mover, but even the Tribeca wasn't quite big enough for what we wanted).
I haven't noticed an appreciable difference in quality, i.e. both are fine. Neither is luxurious, but both are well built and have given me no problems. To be fair, the Subaru was 9 years old when I sold it. Still, the Sienna has not disappointed me, and the engine is an absolute gem. I gave up AWD but gained size and nearly 100hp and get nearly the same gas mileage on trips.
18 years ain't bad for any car, gagrice. Mileage is low, but still, over 18 years we should expect nearly everything to wear out. I don't think that LS owes you anything after that long period.
As for CR, they're the most controversial source for sure, but they do have the largest survey samples by far. It was 1.3 million cars this year.
I found this spin pretty funny:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=122185
So what I'm reading is that somehow increased production will hurt Toyota, thereby allowing domestics to increase production but that won't hurt them.
I don't THINK so.
The last 15 years or so of studies of customer satisfaction pretty clearly shows that while domestic quality is getting better, so are all the Japanese makes, thereby making domestics still dead last overall (cumulatively, not individually). However, it could be that "last" is not as far behind as it used to be.
Statistics are so squirrely!
It is a good car for sure. It will remain a good car as a family loaner. No reason to sell it. I would love to buy another vehicle that would last that long. I don't think any mfg builds them for the long haul anymore. We live in a throw-away society.
CR really does not matter to me, it is there and people will take it or leave it. I doubt it has an impact on the car buying public. I never hear anyone refer to it other than here on Edmund's.
I just don't find it logical that out of 300 million people that even 1% read that magazine.
I delivered a SC Range Rover to a guy around 45 minutes away from my house about a year ago. About a month or two after he picks it up he calls me to let me know the NAV system and DVD entertainment system aren't working.
No problem I tell him I will set up a service appointment for him and pick up the car from his house one morning. A couple of days before the appointment he calls again to say the caretaker at his property thinks the front diff is leaking.
He is getting a little frustrated since the car is less then three months old and SEEMS to be having all these problems.
I pick up the car one morning before work and bring it into the dealership.
The reason the NAV system isn't working is because he got two discs stuck in the DVD player for the NAV system. The NAV system DVD player only holds one and some how he shoved two in there.
The DVD entertainment system doesn't work because he shoved the DVD magazine in so hard that it broke something inside the player and jammed the retrieval mechanism.
The Front diff really was leaking so that was a real problem. A seal somewhere didn't take and so there was a little bit of drippage.
Now what do I tell this guy? Do I tell the CEO of a major corporation that he is a moron and shoved two Map DVDs in a slot for one and jammed the Rear Seat Entertainment DVD player by being ham fisted?
Or do I just leave all that out and tell him it was broken we fixed it problem solved?
I took the middle ground and told him he had two DVDs stuck in the nav system and that was why it was broken. I didn't mention that he broke the DVD player by being to rough.
If he gets one of these reliability surveys in the mail does he report those as three problems when really he only had one? I doubt he fills those things out so it doesn't matter but still an average person probably would do that.
My Credit Union keeps back issues of CR, since they offer auto loans, and that's what most shoppers use when they need a reference.
When the average consumer is asked what source he would use to look up reliability, he would probably say either Consumer Reports or JD Power. The latter doesn't sell magazines, so CR has gotta be #1.
I don't have numbers, but it's just common sense.
Who else is there, even? Strategic Vision? Noone's even heard of them.
I can't think of others.
Enthusiasts like us will seek out forums, sure, but now you're not talking about Joe Consumer any more.
Hate 'em all you want, but CR is the #1 magazine source for reliability.
And before you say all CEOs drive Land Rovers (or luxury cars), that's not necessarily true. One survey I saw among millionaries listed Ford as the most common brand purchased.
Plus, to plebean folks an auto represents a huge investment, the 2nd biggest they'll ever make. There's far more at stake for them vs. one rich CEO that's just gonna lease a different Range Rover in 2 years.
I wasn't playing on saying that and don't see where you got the idea I would. IIRC have the most CEO customers at my dealership with five but I know that not all CEOs drive Land Rovers some of them drive Mercedes and BMWs too. :P
I was just telling a story about perceived problems and reliability. He cause two of those three faults himself but I bet the majority of people would report those problems to a survey as a problem with the car and not the driver. He hasn't had any problems with the car since and I would know as we live fairly close and he would call me to come get the car if he had a problem.
I'm sure cases like that happen to all brands. A dealer wouldn't want to make a 16 year old girl who just spent her life savings on a Toyota Yaris feel stupid, either.
Any how, bottom line is I agree, many problems are very likely caused by the consumer. Absolutely. If not an extra DVD jammed in to a GPS, perhaps neglected maintenance (you mean I have to change the oil?), or hitting a large pothole and not reporting it, etc.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/mostpopular/index.html
I think you'll get the impression, as I did, that imports are of far more interest to consumers than domestic cars.
Just to keep score...domestics only posted 13 cars out of the top 50, and none in the most popular rankings (near the top I mean).
So in the end the denso part has higher quality materials but the employees were paid less and forklift drivers for denso didn't drive caddilacs and live in a 4 br house. At GM they did. As an engineer at GM, it was my job to make a better reliability and performance product with $1.50 less material content than denso. I did that. My product looked cheaper but outperformed the denso product.
When I was foolish enough to approach my Dad about him buying me a car, he always gave me the same reply, "Get a job, buy your own car, and pay for the insurance!" Well, that I did.
In 1981, I bought my first car at 16 for the princely sum of $650 - a rather plain 1968 Buick Special Deluxe 6-passenger station wagon. I passed the car down to my brother and he ran it until 1992. This car made do with primitive drum brakes at all four corners. Sometimes I think NOT having stuff like stability control and ABS made me a better driver. Another great thing was the car was cheap and easy to service and repair. I learned a lot about servicing my own cars rather than relying on a mechanic.
I also found out what an excellent car Buick builds and have purchased several others later on. I currently have a 1988 Park Avenue that simply won't die and my girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she simply loves.