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Strange Cars from the past...
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Buick V6
Looks like Oldsmobile was pretty smart with regards to the 4.1, and avoided it as much as possible. The 98 had it from 1981-83, and the Toronado had it from 1981-84, but the Delta and Cutlass never got it, according to this book. Probably because Olds had the similar-sized 260 V-8? It was a bit low on hp, 100-110, compared to 125 for the 252 V-6, but torque was probably similar, if not better for the V-8.
According to my book, Pontiac never used the 252 V-6, but I swear I've seen a test in MT or C&D of a 1982 Bonneville with that engine. By the time 1983 came around, Pontiac simplified their Bonneville/Grand Prix engines to just a Buick 231-2bbl or Chevy 305-4bbl (oh yeah, and the Diesel...how could I forget. :sick: ) and eliminated those midrange engines. I imagine more widespread use of the 4-speed overdrive tranny, which helped fuel economy immensely on the V-8, led to the demise of those other engines.
Cadillac only used that engine in 1981-82, and Chevy never used it. As for Buick, they used it on the '81-84 Electra, '81-84 Riviera, '80-84 LeSabre, and '82-84 Regal. According to this book, it didn't go in the '81 Regal/Century, but I wonder if the book is wrong there? Seems that if it was available, they would've used it?
Looks like Buicks got stuck with a few sucky engines back then. In addition to having their fleet riddled with that 252 V-6, the Pontiac 301 saw heavy use in the 1978-81 Century/Regal (easily identifiable by a "4.9 Litre" badge). It also went in a lot of 1977-80 LeSabres before switching over to the Olds 307 for 1981.
Oldsmobile was smart...they only used the 301 in the 1979 Delta 88 before going to their own 307. Heck, even Pontiac got a clue and ditched their own 301 for the 307 in the '81 Catalina/Bonneville! They still plagued the '81 LeMans/Grand Prix with it, though.
For somewhat similar cars, this issue has a Bonneville with the 307 at 14.2, and Buick Electra Park Avenue with the 4.1 at 18.1
They also tested an Olds 98 with the 307 , but 0-60 is NA
Be thankful you didn't have to work on them. They were riddled with problems.
The T-Bird and the Ford EXP were total nightmares.
We'd see those come into the shop and everyone was running to hide somewhere. Last guy hidden got stuck with them.
The Mustang II's and Pintos weren't bad to work on, but they sure were a piles of junk.
And in all fairness, Chevy had the Vega. :surprise:
The Cosworth engine was decent, but so rare to see.
The aluminum engine held up for a while, until the first time it overheated when the headgasket let loose, which was pretty common.
Then there was the Dodge Colt, which should have been another one that should have stayed on the drawing board.
OUCH! Well, I guess a 4000 or so lb car with 125 hp isn't exactly the recipe for a drag racer! Just to show how much they improved in a few years, my 1985 Consumer Guide has a 1985 Brougham with the 4.1 Caddy V-8 doing 0-60 in 14.8 seconds. I remember them commenting that "performance is dignified, at best".
For somewhat similar cars, this issue has a Bonneville with the 307 at 14.2, and Buick Electra Park Avenue with the 4.1 at 18.1
That's interesting that the Electra would beat out the Caddy by 4 1/2 seconds. Weren't they about the same weight? I wonder if gearing was different, or maybe one had the 4-speed automatic and one had the 3-speed auto? My 1985 Consumer Guide tested a LeSabre coupe with the 307 and a Delta 88 sedan with the 307. The Delta did 0-60 in 12.0 seconds. The LeSabre had an N/A, but they gave it a "4" for acceleration, which would at least put it under 13 seconds.
I wonder what they did between 1981 and 1985 to get the acceleration times to improve so much on similar-hp engines? Seeing the Caddy drop by about 7.8 seconds overall, while just going from a 125 hp 4.1 V-6 to a 135 hp 4.1 V-8 seems almost too good to be true. And while the difference isn't as drastic with the 307, still, seeing it drop from 14.2 seconds to 12.0, while keeping about the same hp, isn't bad. Did that '81 Bonneville have the 4-speed or 3-speed auto?
Did they just improve the emissions controls and electronics that much on the cars in those 4 years? So that, perhaps, while the hp ratings really didn't change much, if any, maybe they just stalled and sputtered less often? Or maybe the 4-speed automatics just got a little "smarter"? Now that I think about it, my '80 Malibu and '82 Cutlass Supreme seemed pretty cranky and irritable when you first started them, and even fully warmed up, weren't exactly perfect. The '86 Monte and '85 LeSabre I had were much, much better in this regard. And my '85 Silverado, at 22 years of age, is easier to start, less likely to stall and sputter, warms up more easily, and is just more responsive in general than that Malibu or Cutlass ever were in the time I had them (1987-89 for the Malibu and 1993-94 for the Cutlass)
I guess it's also possible that they went to quicker gearing by 1985, as well? The '85 Brougham in my book had a 3.42:1 rear end, while the Buick/Olds 307's had a 2.73:1.
Oh, I believe it. I test drove a 1983 Fleetwood Brougham with the 4.1. The car was so slow, I felt like getting out and walking and waiting for the car to catch up with me. What was the 0-60 time for the 1981 diesel? I drove one of those too and it...was...s...l...o...w...! The 1981 Cadillac Diesel must be Mr. Slowski's dream ride.
The only 0-60 time I could find for a Caddy Diesel of that era was a 1981 Seville. 0-60 in 21 seconds. I got it from this url: http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html
Now keep in mind, this time came out of MT, C&D, or R&T most likely. Testers like Consumer Reports and Consumer Guide tend to be less aggressive in their procedures, so they'd most likely get a slower acceleration time.
It's amazing though, how Cadillac's engines seemed to go downhill almost overnight. In 1980, MT or one of those rags tested a 1980 Seville with the 368, and pitted it against a Lincoln Continental Mark VI with (I think) a 351 and a Chrysler 5th Avenue with a 318. The Caddy ran off 0-60 in 10.6 seconds, compared to 11.0 for the Lincoln. The Chrysler was 14.1 seconds. I think the Chrysler was really hampered by the 318 engine, though. It only had 120 hp that year. The Seville had something like 145-150, and the Lincoln, had around 140. Those extra cubes no doubt helped alot with torque, as well. The Seville had 270 ft-lb of torque. I dunno what the 351 would've had. I think the 318 was down to 230 ft-lb that year.
The Chrysler and Seville both had tall axles: 2.45:1 and 2.41:1, respectively. The Lincoln had the advantage of a 4-speed automatic, which had overdrive. As a result, they gave it a 3.00:1 axle, for improved acceleration.
Did the V-8-6-4 have much slower acceleration than the regular 368 V-8? I think hp was down slightly, to 140. It must've been really annoying back then for buyers to get a new Cadillac, say, in 1979 or 1980, that could still launch from 0-60 in under 11 seconds, and then a few years later, "graduate" to one that was pushing 20 or more! :sick:
They did test an Olds Cutlass sedan diesel, 0-60 in 20.3.
The oddball GM engine they tested was a Buick Regal with the 3.8 turbo...0-60 in 11.0.
And for the real fun, they tested a Volvo diesel wagon (no model number provided), 0-60 in 25.8.
Just out of curiosity, what kinds of problems did those T-birds have? And was it that they were troubleprone and broke down alot, or just something about the way that they were put together that made them harder to work on? Or both, maybe?
I don't have much experience with the Fox platform, although my grandparents had an '81 Granada coupe with the 200-6 and then an '85 LTD with the 232 V-6. Neither were particularly troubleprone, but my grandparents usually only kept their cars 3-4 years. The LTD gave way to an '89 Taurus.
I do remember, back in 1989, taking my '80 Malibu to the mechanic to get a new heater core. It was about $225. I remember my mechanic telling me I was lucky I didn't have an 80's T-bird. They had one in the shop for the same ailment, and I think he said that the book called for something like 7-8 hours of labor! I'd hate to see the bill for that one!
Since then, I've heard other people say that the heater core on Fox-bodied cars is a nightmare to get to.
I do kinda remember the Fox body having a tight engine bay, especially if you had a V-8 or V-6 in there. I don't think the inline-6 was too bad, though. But then, it seems like MOST engine bays were cramped around that era, and riddled with a spaghetti-tangle of wires, vacuum hoses, etc. My '80 Malibu, '82 Cutlass, '85 LeSabre, and '86 Monte were no picnic under the hood either. And now that I think about it, my '89 Gran Fury (okay, so that's pushing 1990, but it was conceived in 1976 as the Volare/Aspen) seemed like it would automatically break or loosen a vacuum hose every time I went under the hood!
I think about the only car from that 70's/80's low spot period that I've had experience with, which doesn't seem that bad to work on, is the Mopar R-body. And that could be simply because they're just an enlarged, rebodied, 1971 intermediate underneath, and were designed to take just about any engine Mopar ever made, on up to the 426 Hemi, so there's plenty of room under the hood.
That's interesting that there would be that much difference in weight between the two cars, especially with the same engine! Although I did hear that with that 1980 reskin, Buick and Olds took greater measures to shed weight than Chevy or Pontiac. Maybe compared to Cadillac, too?
Wow, that's cool, and something I've always fantasized about doing! Just never had the time or the money to do it. And I don't have the know-how to do it myself. Years ago, I had an '82 Cutlass with a dog of a 231 V-6. The engine blew. Body was good and solid though, and the interior was nice. I also had a '69 Bonneville with a 400-4bbl. Great engine, although it would eat starters and tended to overheat. Body was pretty beat-up on it. I would've loved to have put the 400 in the Cutlass. I'm sure that would've made a screamer! Even in that big Bonneville that engine was pretty fast, so I imagine shaving off a half-ton or more would've done wonders for it.
I had an '85 LeSabre with the Olds 307. 2.73 gearing. According to Consumer Guide, it would do 0-60 in about 12 seconds. It was one of those cars that was actually faster than it felt, though, I guess because it was so plush and quiet, and the engine just didn't rev. Peak torque came on at something low like 1600 rpm IIRC, and I think that 140 hp was achieved at 3200. I had thought about trying to replace that 307 with a 350 or 403 if the engine ever blew...but the engine was still running strong when we got rid of that car. Seemed like the engine was gonna be the LAST thing to go!
That's cool that GM was actually thoughtful enough to make the tranny in your car compatible with both the Chevy and the Buick/Olds/Pontiac/Cadillac bolt pattern. Did that still have the THM200-R4 tranny in it, or was it a beefier unit?
It'll usually do a full throttle shift & kickdown at 4,000 RPM. But I think thats where my motors geared. Sometimes it struggles to shift into 3rd but thats to be expected with a 20 yr old tranny. At least my swap has Overdrive! I love when it gets up to about 75 then shifts real hard into 4th.
Yeah, I've heard that the Monte SS, Grand National, and the Cutlass Hurst/442 got a beefed up version of that tranny. I wonder if a 350 though, even a mild one, would still put out more peak torque than those hopped up smaller engines?
Somewhere around 1989, Cadillac started offering Chevy 350's in the Brougham, but I think initially it was just offered with a coachbuilder's package...the models that would get shipped out and converted into limos, hearses, etc. Those used a beefier 4-speed automatic...I think it was called a 700R4 or something? I think that tranny is still around, although modified, and is today called the 4L60E? Or did that one become the 4L80E? Anyway, if your 200R4 ever blows, you might be able to get one of those newer 4-speeds to fit. I've heard they don't fit the Pontiac/Buick/Olds bolt pattern, but since you converted to a Chevy 350 already, you should be fine.
The 307 had less hp, 140, but was torquier than the 305. The 305 put out 165 hp with the 4-bbl, but when they went to TBI it went up a bit to 170. I remember the 305-4bbl had 245 ft-lb of torque @ 2400 rpm, whereas the 307-4bbl was 255 @ 1600. I saw the TBI 305 listed at only 225 ft-lb, but that seems like a misprint. Kinda low for an engine that big.
MT or C&D did a test of a 1991 or 1992 Brougham with the TBI 350. 185 hp, which was only 15 more than the Chevy 305. But it had 300 ft-lb of torque. I think it did 0-60 in about 9.5 seconds. That may sound bad by today's standards, but I'd imagine that it was the quickest a full-sized Caddy had been since perhaps 1970. I think those mammoth 1971-76 Caddies, even in the early years with the more powerful engines, had trouble breaking 10 seconds, although an Eldo might have. And when they downsized, I still don't think the 425 could break 10 seconds in stock form. The 368 was a bit slower in 1980, slower still in 1981, and then they really bottomed out with the 4.1 aluminum V-8. The 307 was a definite improvement, in power, economy (didn't require as short of an axle ratio) and especially durability.
The Ford leader who said that was Phillip Caldwell, who, interestingly enough, was NOT particularly renowned as a "car guy" prior to assuming the leadership position at Ford. He also championed the aero-look for the Taurus, too.
As for the style, I think my main issue lies with the rear. It just seems too big and blocky for that body. And that probably lies in the fact that they essentially took the compact Ford Fairmont and tried to apply the 1977-79 T-bird style to it as best they could, and it just didn't fit.
Considering how bad 1983 was supposed to be, it's incredible to think that Ford was thinking of fielding yet another square, heavy-looking car for this field. They were actually forecasting for gas to be like $3.00 per gallon and ultra scarce, and GM was scrambling to shrink their Monte Carlo and its ilk down to roughly Cavalier-sized, while Chrysler was just giving up on this market, letting the Cordoba/Mirada die out after 1983.
Oddly though, the big car started making a comeback in 1982. That year, Caprices were flying off the lot at sticker price while the seemingly much more sensible Celebrity needed hefty rebates to move. Pontiac was starting to regret dumping their big cars, and scrambled to get one back by mid-1983. And Chrysler was starting to have some success by tricking people into thinking that a guzzied up Volare with leather seats and a landau roof was a full-sized car.
It really wouldn't be 1984 until big cars were back in full-force, though, and back then GM still pretty much dominated everything except small cars. Ford did start to make a big turnaround with the 1983 T-bird/Cougar, though. I guess if they had gone with their original plan, it might have fallen flat on its face and had dire consequences down the road for that company.
One of my friends from high school actually bought a new 1982 Caprice Classic in a beautiful turquoise two-tone. All one had to do was look at the excellent build-quality of the Caprice and compare it to the tinny doors, thin seats, mediocre Citation drivetrain, and extreme orange peel paint of the Celebrity to understand why.
I'm really dying to know what that '83 T-Bird would've looked like. I hope he posts a pic.
I think another problem is that the Celebrity was a fairly expensive car, at sticker price, at least. IIRC, a 4-cyl Celebrity was more costly than a V-6 Malibu, and the V-6 Celebrity was more expensive than the V-8 Malibu. And an Impala or Caprice really wasn't that much more.
The Malibu also outsold the Celebrity in 1982, and in 1983 I think it was also close. The Malibu offered a wagon though, which was pretty popular. The Celebrity wouldn't get a wagon until 1984, after the Malibu was gone. The Celebrity had a coupe, which the Malibu didn't have. It was dropped from the Malibu line after 1981. The Celebrity coupe never was a strong seller, though.
I was actually surprised though, to hear that Caprices were flying off the lot at sticker, while the Celebrities were languishing. I found this out fairly recently, when one of my friends gave me a big box full of old MTs, C&Ds, etc from the 70's and 80's, and they had a test of a 1982 Caprice. And this was early 1982, like January or Feb.
I wonder if what happened was that GM was purposely trying to cut back production of those bigger cars for CAFE purposes, hoping that people would suddenly switch to more fuel-efficient Celebrities and such? But what happened instead was that it just drove up demand, and price for whatever Caprices WERE available?
I recall reading an article in Motor Trend or Car and Driver about the Celebrity Eurosport wagon. The article was titled "A Little Euro, A Little Sport, But Not Much of Either."
My grandparents had a 1982 Malibu Classic Estate wagon with the 229 V-6, and they hated it. They were coming from a 1972 Impala 4-door hardtop with a 350 V-8 though, so it was quite a shock. And while a '72 Impala isn't exactly a perfect car, it was still a tough act for an early 80's midsize to live up to. I guess it could have been worse though...if they bought a Celebrity they probably would've REALLY hated it! Granddad didn't like FWD cars though, mainly because of the mechanical complexity, increased repair costs, and often compromised reliability/durability. So I doubt if they would have bought a Celebrity, anyway!
I remember when that Malibu started showing what a piece of junk it could be (mainly ECU problems), and gas prices started coming down, Granddad wanted to get an Electra. There was an old guy at our church with an early 80's Electra coupe that Grandmom & Granddad really liked. But once the Electra got downsized to FWD, they decided on a LeSabre or Delta 88. I think they went to the Buick dealer first though. The salesman showed them a light blue one that refused to start, and that gave Grandmom a bad vibe. The next one they checked out was dark gray. Fired right up, drove just fine, and that's what they ended up bringing home.
That was the first car anyone in my immediate family had that was fully loaded. By 1985 standards, of course.
As Mr. Shiftright said, it was awful - just as bad as the 1980-82 Thunderbird. It probably would have finished off the Thunderbird nameplate.
I remember my grandparents being so hung up on downsizing, and feeling they had been burned by that Malibu, that when Granddad wanted a new pickup, it took some convincing to get Grandmom to see that the pickups weren't downsized, too! At the time, they had a 1976 GMC crew cab pickup, and they were looking at the new '85's. Even though the '85 was the same design, there actually WAS some measurement that was smaller on the '85. I forget now what it was, but I think Grandmom took a tape measure and measured the width of the front seat cushion in the '76, and found that the '85 was narrower.
I guess it's possible that GM just rounded off the cushion on the newer trucks, or narrowed them a bit, to make entry/exit easier or something?
Looking back, I really wish that '72 Impala had held up. It was a sharp looking car back in the day. Would've made a cool first car for me. :shades:
Just your size, too...
It's funny too, to think that my '79 New Yorkers are "downsized", but are still about that same length...221". But then those pre-downsized Nimitz Class NYers WERE bigger than the pre-downsized Impalas, so maybe everything stayed pretty much proportional. I have a used car guide that lists a '78 New Yorker at something like 225.7", but I've heard other sources say it was more like 230".
Speaking of the '74s, I remember catching my first glimpse of the Caprice 2-door on a car carrier at a rest stop on the PA Turnpike around August of '73. That was an ungainly beast compared to the more graceful hardtops of '71-'73!
friend got to drive his parents '51 Plymouth my leading edge
Baby Boom view is just a little older. Now a College friend
did have a '57 T-Bird, that was almost the coolest thing going
in '64/65 as things like the Falcon got released.
Since that time I've come across any number of things on the
road and off but one of the oddest is the '56 Facel-Vega
that is sitting in one guy's garage. His dad's daily driver
from that era and been sitting for 30+ years. The Facel as
I've found out was the product of a Frenchman trying to get
France back into the car game after WWII. Partly Italian
design and fabbed in France the cars came with a mixed drive
train that included a Chrysler engine and automatic or a
French designed manual transmission. The later cars had mid
to big Hemi blocks that are more sought after than this one
with what I think is a 318 Wedge motor and the euro manual.
The manual is preferred over the US auto transmission but is
extremely hard to get parts for.
I guess what is strange partly depends on when you came across it.
Would a '53 Chevy pickup have been able to hold a 4x8 sheet of plywood between its rear fender wells? That's something that to this day, only a full-sized pickup truck can do. The compacts and so-called midsizers are still unable. Although I did hear that if they would base the Dakota on the Durango platform, instead of its own, more dedicated platform, that it would be able to. But then, if they start giving the midsizers that capability, I guess it starts making the bigger trucks obsolete...unless you really need that extra power, towing capacity, or load capacity (not volume necessarily, but mass).
As far as interior room goes, I think trucks pretty much hit their peak with the '73 GM trucks. At least, comparing regular-cab models. I remember sitting in an '08 Chevy pickup at the DC auto show, a regular cab model. Other than the more rakish windshield, which gives you a nice, big dashboard top, I really didn't find any more useable interior room compared to my '85 Silverado. Legroom felt about the same. Ditto shoulder room. Storage behind the seat seemed about the same Now the steering wheel was a bit further from my chest, and the truck had real headrests to keep you from smacking the back window in a rear-ender...something I'm intimately familiar with in my '85 Silverado...OUCH!! :sick: Oh, and they've found more nooks and crannies to store small items.
I was a passenger in a 2004 F350 pickup yesterday and I swear, as big as that thing is, it doesn't seem like there's much more room than my Silverado. I think it does have 3 or 4 more inches of shoulder room, but when you're dealing with that much room, it's almost unneccesary. Now in cars, 4 inches can mean the difference between a compact and a full-size. But going from 64-65 inches to 67-68, I don't think most people will notice. Other dimensions though, particularly legroom, were no better. In fact, this thing seemed to have LESS footwell area because of the way the dashboard and components underneath hung down. The tranny hump seemed bigger too, but that's probably because of it being a heavy-duty truck.
Regarding the 1988 and later GM trucks, their beds actually were a bit narrower than the '73-87 style, but still big enough for the proverbial 4x8 sheet of plywood. Here's how I found that out. My pickup, back when it was Granddad's, had a camper shell on the back. At some point in the early 90's, after Granddad had passed away, my uncle pulled it off for whatever reason, and it was just sitting in the yard. In the late 90's, in an effort to try cleaning up Grandmom's yard, my Mom and uncle agreed to give it to some family friends. They had a 1988 or later pickup. I remember when we helpd them lift that shell onto the bed of the newer truck, it actually overhanged on either side by at least an inch. I don't know what that guy ultimately did with that shell, but I remember it was quite a balancing act, so I doubt if he kept it long.
Overall, I think the '88 GM trucks were about the same size as the '73-87 in most key dimensions. But something about their style made them look small. I remember when they first started hitting the streets, I'd mistake them for an early 80's Chevy LUV! The cheaper models with the single headlights did have a similar look.
I noticed the same thing about the '97 Ford F-150. While it was hardly a small truck, something about its styling looked small. If I saw it out in a parking lot all by itself, with nothing else to reference it against, it looked like a compact truck to me.
Oh, and if GM and everyone else downsized their trucks to S-10 size, I imagine that today I'd be nursing Granddad's '76 GMC crew cab along, instead of his '85 Silverado. However, my grandparents DID have a couple of small trucks. In the late 70's they bought a '72 LUV from a friend of my Mom's. At that time they had a '72 Impala and their '76 GMC. Grandmom was still working and drove the Impala, and Granddad was retired, and would use the LUV for running errands and such, instead of lugging that 21 foot long pickup around. They ended up giving the LUV to my uncle when he needed a car, and from there it got trashed, and ultimately totaled I think. He could be rough on cars! And judging by his '03 Corolla, still is. :sick: In late 1980, when gas prices were sky high and the stuff was scarce, my grandparents bought an '81 Dodge D-50. They had it less than 2 years. In early 1982 it pulled a sudden acceleration stunt at the gas station, and spooked them both enough that they didn't want it anymore. A neighbor wanted to buy it, and they sold it to him, and as of the early 90's he still had it.
I think my grandparents viewed little pickups as something to run errands in, short trips, etc. But Granddad was a farmer most of his life, so I think full-sized pickup trucks were in his blood.
Yes, but the longbed wasn't long enough until 1957.
That was our Driver's ED car.. :surprise:
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So I got to drive a spanking new '69 Dodge Coronet sedan. In brown IIRC. Big whoop!