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Hyundai Santa Fe Towing Questions

50mph50mph Posts: 3
I bought a new Santa Fe, the option came with the Towing package. This included all the extra cooling and pre wiring.

So I had my Towing Package installed today. And I found out that they dealer who installed my package says it did not come with the pre wiring. I grabbed my Invoice, it does state I had this option. Anyway, now I have this Kimshi Red wire running all the way up into my engine compartment and attached to the Fuse Box. Also I niticed the had ti use Electrical tape on the Red Wire at the rear bumper. I noticed the control box and they spliced a red wire there and ran it all the way up front. Used about 3 or 4 tie strips. I paid $1300.00 for a Touriung package and didnt ge the pre wiriung I thought I would get. Maybe they dealer ordered the wrong Towing Package, I see on the OEM Parts page for Hyundai they have 2 different types of kits, One for the Pre wiring, one for the non-pore wiring.

Also I had the bug defflector installed. Wow, they didnt do that very well at all. Its not straight, and they mounted it in correctly.

I have pictures. But what I am looking for is some good firepower to go back to the dealer with. I am wondering if anyone can shed any light on this Towing Package.

Thanks
Dennis
«1345

Comments

  • james74james74 Posts: 3
    I am thinking of getting the 2007 Limited model, but my wife thinks that is not worthy of towing a boat. We don't even have a boat yet, but are deffo thinking about getting one. How large a boat have people towed with this vehicle, and was everything OK?

    thanks
  • musky1gfmmusky1gfm Posts: 36
    Depends on what kind of boat?For example I'm contemplating the awd Limited.
    My boat is a 17.5' Crestliner alum. fishing boat,the entire set-up weighs 1900 lb. That's boat,motor and trailer.
    Figure out what yours would weigh from mfrg. web sites,etc.
    Hope this helps.
  • berniedgberniedg Posts: 54
    My boat is 17'Lund, also about 1800lbs. I would like to hear of peoples experience in towing with '07 SF. Right now I tow very happily with full cabin in Dodge Caravan, 4000lb vehicle, with 210lb-ft of torque.
    On paper the new Santa Fe, should be just as good ?
    I don't know anyone who tows with an asian designed vehicle, wonder why ?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    The chicken tax may be one reason:

    Should the US keep the Chicken Tax? (Straightline)
  • Don't think you will have any trouble with your set-up.
    I've seen many Toyota and Nissan trucks towing boats,not heavy loads like 5-wheeler rv's and such tho.
    Of course Hyundai doesn't make a truck for the U.S. at present.
    You can get a hitch from HiddenHitch.com for about $150,including wiring and no shipping cost.Bolts into 4 holes already in frame.
  • berniedgberniedg Posts: 54
    True, I've seen Pathfinders, and 4runners towing boats along highways, but not many of the current crop of car based suvs.
    I'm reluctant to change vehicles when each weekend, I primarily see American mini-vans and trucks lining up at my boat launches. Hard to avoid group think.
    Thanks for the info on hidden hitch, and for info on Chicken Tax. I have seen reference to that term but never looked it up till now. Interesting.
  • rick2456rick2456 Posts: 320
    I believe the towing limit is 3500lbs so as to not void the warranty. I am sure it is capable of towing more, but at risk to the warranty. Good luck.
  • gwillygwilly Posts: 51
    Good rule of thumb is tow no more than 75% of max towing weight. In this case about 2600 pounds.

    I wouldn't bank on using the pre-wired trailer harness, Hyundai has not finalized a corresponding adapter to plug into it. I did find an adapter however you have to take interior panels off to get to the existing light harnesses, still a PIA. If you have a 6 wire socket for brakes then you can get an adapter from flat 4 to round 6.

    http://www.bsaohio.com/proddetail.php?prod=118415
  • rick2456rick2456 Posts: 320
    I stand corrected. I looked at the Hyundai brochure and it says 2000lbs. Good thing I have a truck base SUV for that stuff.
  • kdahlquistkdahlquist Posts: 130
    It's only 2000 pounds for base models. Most Santa Fe's are being built with the two prep package, which ups max towing capacity to 3,500 pounds.
  • kdahlquistkdahlquist Posts: 130
    Hyundai has finally released a plug-in trailer wiring harness for the 07 Santa Fe. It is part number U8612-2B000. It's so new that my dealer didn't know it existed, and tried to tell me it didn't. They wanted to sell me part number U8614-2B000, which requires splicing. I told them to check with Hyundai, which they did, and surprise! I was right. The computer showed it in-stock in the warehouse, so I should have it in a few days. Retail price is $81.61.
  • I currently am towing an 18 ft travel trailer (tow weight around 2300 lbs, hitch weight around 230 lbs) with a 2002 Toyota Sienna (220 HP/210 ft pounds torque). While the back end does go down a bit (can you imagine my previous tow vehicle, a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan had self leveling air shocks as part of the "tow package") I have had no trouble actually towing or stopping with either vehicle. I can't imagine that the Santa Fe will be any different although I will try my best to see if I can find after market self leveling air shocks for my 2008 Santa when I purchase it. Just in case you are wondering, I went to Alaska and back with the trailer with the Caravan (round trip a little over 10K miles) and have been to the Rockies and back (5.5K miles) with the Sienna. In total, I have towed the trailer for about 40K miles with the two vehicles so if there were going to be any problems, I think I would have discovered them by now. I am confident the Santa Fe will perform just as well as the Caravan and the Sienna, in fact better considering it has more power than either of the two vans.
  • kdahlquistkdahlquist Posts: 130
    I picked up the new harness today. As advertised, it is plug-and-play. You plug it into the two proprietary connectors in the left rear of the vehicle (inside the body just behind the left rear wheel), and it has a conventional flat four-in trailer plug on the other end. It comes with very detailed installation instructions, mounting brackets, cables ties, etc. Very nicely done and certainly worth the $82 retail price.
  • gogregogogrego Posts: 15
    Dang! Yesterday I just finished hooking up my trailer lights with an after-market setup. I found the 4 prong connector on an old Hyundai at a junkyard. It's the same as the O2 sensor connector. The battery power (2-prong)I could not find so I cut and spliced it. I used the Modulite #118176 power module. It all works great for about 50 bucks total. But....I would have bought the dealer one for the extra $$ for a lot less hassle.
  • powerman5powerman5 Posts: 6
    I hooked up my boat to the Santa Fe yesterday. The vehicle pulled the boat just fine. I was supprised at how well the vehilce handled with the boat connected. However, I did notice that the rear wheels seemed to change the angle. My tongue weight is around 250 lbs but the wheels looked like this / \ as apposed to like this l l. Just looked a little weired to me. Happy motoring.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    Hello kdahlquist

    Can you supply a part number for the harness alone. my dealer says it is only available with the entire package....TIA
  • kdahlquistkdahlquist Posts: 130
    See post #11 in this thread.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    Thank You, kdahlquist!
  • powerman5powerman5 Posts: 6
    Just asked a friend of mine who is a GREAT mechanic and he said that it sounds like the Santa Fe has four wheel independent suspension (which I don't know if that is true or not) but that would explaine the way the rear wheels toe out. He said that I should be find towing the boat as long as I don't have to make very long trips. This is ok by me because we would only be towing the boat with the Santa Fe for very short distances and then only if my truck is not working at the time. Just thought I would pass this information on. Happy Motoring.
  • gwillygwilly Posts: 51
    He said that I should be find towing the boat as long as I don't have to make very long trips

    That sure sounds counter-intuitive. Could you have your mechanic elaborate on this theory. I read the owners manual and have the AWD SE Santa Fe and will definitely tow up to 6 hours pulling a pop-up trailer (1800lbs) into high elevations 8500+ feet.

    I am being slightly sarcastic in my tone, which I'm sure you can sense. I bought my vehicle primarily to be able to tow and have a great vehicle to drive. So far my towing experiences have been stellar, plenty of power and good mileage also. (17-18mpg)
  • powerman5powerman5 Posts: 6
    Guess there is quite a difference in pulling an 1800 lb pop-up trailer for long trips and pulling a 3200 lb boat for long trips. I am sure the car would be just fine but it worries me about how the wheels toe out.
  • If anyone is looking for installation instructions (took me 2 hours to find them) here they are:

    http://www.draw-tite.com/fitguides/pdf/N118310.pdf

    Or have a look through:
    http://www.bsaohio.com/proddetail.php?prod=18310

    Cheers and good luck.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    I am a little confused by your description. The towing pkg should have a pair of pig tails with odd looking plugs FACTORY mounted under the fenderwell on the driver's side as well as the HD fans and radiator and transmission cooler.

    If they added some kind of aftermarket job, you did not get what you paid for and I would first discuss it with the sales mgr, then if necessary Hyundai USA, then depending on your state, the AG's office if you do not get any where. I think they way you are describing the job, it might be fraud. That long red wire...where does it begin in the rear...the towing harness needs more than a single red wire even if added later.

    The factory PKG needs the special harness ($80)to attach to existing pigtails and then converted thru a small converter box)to the traditional 4 prong adapter...sounds like they ran a wire for a Trailer brake....more info or Pics plzWithout a braking kit, there should be no spliced wires. The Non prewired SF's would have the wiring harness spliced into the brake lights.

    I would also bring the poor workmanship on the bug deflector to the sale's manager's attention and insist that it be done correctly. Just MHO.
  • 50mph50mph Posts: 3
    From what I know I have the upgraded cooling and should have the included wiring. I only know that the Options Package listed this on the Vehicle Sticker. After you posted where the plugs are a friend found these 2 plugs. But they didnt use the plugs, they just spliced wires and used electrical tape. So they used the non-pre wiring instead of the Pre Wiring I had. I will try and describe the wiring. I do have pictures, but they are at home. I think you are correct, that red wire must be for a trailer brake. It runs from a control box and conects to the Fuse Box under the Hood.

    The bottom line is I paid for an option, Pre Wiring and they didnt use them. So I have Black Electrical tape and a poor wiring job. The Control Box has become lose, the glue they used dripped on my Tail Pipe.

    I know its not you, I am just so upset that I didnt get the service I deserve. Its like yo mentioned, its like a aftermarket U-Haul Install.

    I guess all I can do is try and make the dealer correct the problems.

    Other thn my poor service, I love my Santa Fe. I think I try abother Hyundai dealer here for any more servicing.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    Yep...thats what they did. The CORRECT Plug and play harness part #is UB610-2B100 That is the part # on my instructions that came with my plug and play harness!

    EDIT.....It just dawned on me that you have probably purchased the whole Hyundai hitch kit...I do not know the correct # for the kit with the harness above...so pick and choose what is below

    Just what wires did they splice into? BTW...I do not know if the prewire touring pkg is or is not wired for the trailer brake (Hyundai may have messed up that one) so I have no idea how they do that.....I am doubtful since my plug and play harness ends in a normal 4 prong trailer flat wire..I think there are special plugs for the brake kit though...do check first.
    What did they splice into anyway...the prewire or tail light?

    DEFINITELY NOT ACCEPTABLE...$1300 TOURING PKG AND THEN THAT MESS....

    I would still lodge a formal complaint and see if you can get them to replace the harnesses where they put the black tape (OR WHATEVER THEY SPLICED INTO), remove the wrong harness and get you the correct one...do not think I would allow them to even install it from what you describe!!!!

    At Kragen or whatever, you can buy a cheap trailer wiring harness checker for under $10 if you need to. BTW THE ETRAILERS.COM AFTERMARKET HARNESS DOES NOT EVEN USE SPLICES...USES NEAT T-CONNECTORS AND COSTS ABOUT $35!!! I bought my drawtight hitch there and the plug and play harness from my dealer. the hitch was about $120 shipped and high quality!!

    The oem harness has crimp connectors that are used on SF's without the pre wiring (just like U-haul)...Black tape does not get it and I would be upset too. It really sounds like your dealer has no idea what's playing...the plug and play harness has been out a few months now.

    I would definitely find another dealer and use HyundaiUSA if need be

    Hint...those pigtails connectors have caps on them that you remove prior to snapping the CORRECT harness into them...it takes about 15 minutes to install the harness and most of that time is the routing of the loom and converter box that attaches up under the bumper area (actually on a strut type affair). Also on my harness a strong double sided tape is used to mount toe control box...NOT GLUE...glue near exhaust=bad news! AND IT MOUNTS TOWARDS THE CENTER OF THAT STRUT(BUMBER) NOT NEAR AN EXHAUST! THAT IS CLEAR IN THE INSTRUCTIONS!

    SAVE THOSE PICTURES AND TAKE MORE JUST IN CASE!Please keep us posted
  • 50mph50mph Posts: 3
    ">I agree with what you said. On the Hyundai Parts site they list 2 types of towing packages. But I don't think this is my problem, they had my VIN#, I bought the vehicle there. So they may have installed the wiring kit that was for the non towing package. When I was there, in the service department, I mentioned I had the included towing prep package. He just relied with it isnt there. Even after bringing out my vehicle window sticker, showing it had listed the proper package, he just replied the same.


    Quantity Name SKU Each Total (USD)



    Non towing package:Hyundai Santa Fe 2007 Tow Hitch U8610-2B000 $373.35 $373.35



    Pre-wired for towing package:Hyundai Santa Fe 2007 Tow Hitch U8610-2B100 $373.35 $373.35

    I hope they will make this right. I am thinking they did drill in the rear somewhere. They applied some sort of silcone and when the did this, it dripped onto my Crome Exhaust tip. So it had this glue stick stuff all over it. Again I have pictures. I mat take the time to upload them here when I get home. I will even take a picture of the non used plugs that are in place.

    I would like to thank you for all your help. You brought so much information I needed and could not get from my dealer.

    Thanks
  • I think you should get Hyundai Customer Service involved. You may want to goto another dealer though, to have everything verified. :(
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    I would notify HyundaiUSA as well...they can have a rep view the shoddy workmanship and wrong harness and hopefully make things right. Dealers hate hearing from corporate!
    Get a file number after reporting the problems...they can be quite responsive when dealt with.

    I only hope things work out for you and the pleasure is mine!
  • kdahlquistkdahlquist Posts: 130
    I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

    To my knowledge, ALL 2007 Santa Fes come with trailer pre-wiring. While it is advertised as being included with the Touring Package, I've heard on this forum from others who did not get the Touring Package that their vehicles were, in fact, pre-wired. You should look and see if the pre-wiring is there on yours. I bet it is.

    To check, get under your Santa just behind the rear wheel on the driver's side. Use a flashlight and look at the inside of the body panel. You should see two thick black plastic cables with funny plugs on them. That's the trailer pre-wiring that your dealer should have plugged into.

    My dealership didn't know anything about those connections when I went it to ask about trailer wiring. They tried to sell me a kit that required splicing. I had to show them the pre-wiring connectors and give them the part number for the wiring harness with the plugs for those connectors.

    And if you buy the entire trailering kit from the dealer, which it sounds like you did, the kit includes both the hitch and wiring harness. BUT THE HARNESS INCLUDED IN THAT KIT IS THE WRONG ONE! The harness included in the kit requires splicing. To get the plug-in harness, you need a different part number at a cost of $81. That's why most of us on this forum recommend NOT getting the dealer-installed tow hitch. Just buy a Hidden Hitch or other brand hitch for $150 or so, and buy the plug-in wiring harness from your dealer for $81.

    It sounds to me like your dealer just had the wrong wiring harness and was too lazy or cheap or stupid (or all three) to realize that they needed to get a different part.

    Step one for you, though, is to verify that the pre-wiring is in fact there. I bet it is.
  • somedai1somedai1 Posts: 416
    KDAHLQUIST IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT - I CHECKED LAST NIGHT - TO MY SURPRISE IT WAS THERE - THOUGH I HAVE NO PRESENT INTENTIONS OF EVER TOWING - NICE TO KNOW IT'S THERE...
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    Now if they all have the prewire...I wonder why Hyundai even makes a splice connector harness for the 07? That is really weird.

    Luckily, I have my plug and play harness from the dealer and drawtite hitch from etrailers so I am at least set up neatly (yes, i installed it myself too since it was so simple)
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    Anyone have experience towing with the new 2007 Hyundai Santa Fe Limited with Tow package. Mine seems to have more rear end sag than it should. Trailer weighs in at 2800 lbs. Tongue weight at 340, a little heavy. From what I have read/researched, a weight distribution hitch is strongly discouraged by Hyundai (owners manual). Anyone have an idea why it is discouraged? There aren't aftermarket suspension airbags or load adjusting shocks at this time for this vehicle. I need lots of help!!
  • gwillygwilly Posts: 51
    I have a similar situation, and today I was fretting over the exact same thing. I tow a small tent trailer 2004 Fleetwood Tuscon (1450 unladen, 1600-1700 laden) with 2007 Santa Fe AWD plus 3rd row with towing package. My tongue weight is around 310 and it definitely has major rear end sag.

    I already posted this info previously, but for a recap I e-mailed Air Lift a photo of the rear springs and they said it may or may not work (this is after your remove the rubber bushing at the inside top of the coil spring shaft) because the air bag will only hit two of the coils. Obviously this would be bad if they didn't work.

    The other alternative is air shocks, however after an exhaustive search of all the major manufacturers comparing overall length by minimum travel and max travel, including upper mount and lower mount....there is no shock available. I could get a close one that matches most variables and then bore out the rubber bushings and change/add sleeves. My neighbor swears we could do it.

    It does seem a little crazy that it has that much rear end sag, I mean at least several crossover SUVs have air suspension systems (Suzuki XL 7) to solve this problem. I bought my Santa Fe primarily to tow. The engine is smooth as silk with plenty of power.

    I would not recommend this vehicle as it equipped presently for towing with any sort of heavy tongue weight (300+)....Unless Hyundai gets their act together.

    Sorry for the rant but I feel your pain, someone previously tried lift bars but most responded that the body cannot take that sort of tension. It would be nice to use them notched up maybe one chain just to get the rear sag to come up a little.

    Maybe a solution will be forth coming from aftermarket companies or even Hyundai.

    Gary
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    I have a guy from Valley Spring who is making a progressive rate rear coil for the rear. He states he has a template and has made numerous pairs for Hyundai owners facing the same issue. If it works I'll post it.

    My RV dealer said that they found an airbag that will work after matching up specs, etc. If the rear springs don't work, that might be the way to go.
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    Regarding the weight distribution system that someone tried earlier. Most unit body vehicles are able to handle a weight distribution system with a trailer in the 5000# range, primarily the Jeep Liberty. I wonder why Hyundai discourages its use?
  • gwillygwilly Posts: 51
    Could you post a link for the Valley Spring Co., cost could be considerable with labor? Under $500 could be ok. That would negate the cost savings of the Santa Fe which specs its towing capabilities.

    I keep thinking of other vehicles which would have no problems with the tongue weight and they include a hitch with proper prewiring :' ) The air bag issue is not an option if you have to cut the upper bumper off, how the hell would you get it back on if the air bag didn't work?

    It sure is great to have feedback on this issue.
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    Valley Spring does not have a website. Their phone number is 1-800-287-2645. I have spoken with Bill. The company was referred by Trailer Supply Company out of Ontario, California. I also spoke with a recommended installer for these springs in Escondido, California. From what they are saying, it sounds like it will work or at least I will see major improvement. The springs are fabricated by Valley Spring, custom made so it is about a 2-3 week wait. They are progressive springs, without a load the ride will be similar to the factory springs, loaded they have a spring rate of 485# per inch. My price was $315.00 for the springs and I was quoted about $250.00 for the install. It's worth it to me if it works, I'm not looking at replacing this vehicle.

    It's only been a week since I ordered them, so I don't have any other info. at this time. I'll let you know what happens.
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    I also have several companies that have stated they can make a custom coilover shock for the vehicle. However, they need specs for the shock. They need a compressed length, extended length and measurements for the end mountings. Anyone interested in having their shock measurements taken. If so, please post measurements online.

    I was quoted $98.00 for Gabriel coilover shocks by www.shockshopusa.com if I can provide specs on my factory shocks. I'll wait and see if anyone has specs before tearing into mine.
  • gwillygwilly Posts: 51
    BTW did you have an AWD Santa Fe?
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    After re-reading your above posting, sounds like you might have measurements for the rear shocks. Could you pass those along, I would like to investigate as well. There may be some local company here in Southern California that can match the shock.
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    No, it's the FWD version, but any measurements you have would be helpful
  • gwillygwilly Posts: 51
    I have misplaced them, when I find them I will pass it along.
  • heygoobheygoob Posts: 2
    gizzer777, thanks for the good info re: the Hyundai part number. I have been trying to locate an aftermarket wiring harness that will utilize the existing pre-wired pigtails without success. Called my dealership this morning and gave them the part number and was told, firstly that it was U8610 not UB610 and secondly, that it was not sold separately but only as part of the megabuck hitch and harness package 2B1000. Could you please provide the name and address of the dealer you bought your harness from so I can give them a try? Or at least show my dealer what other Hyundai dealers will do for their customers. Thanks in advance.
  • kdahlquistkdahlquist Posts: 130
    Here's a post I made in another thread:

    "Hyundai has finally released a plug-in trailer wiring harness for the 07 Santa Fe. It is part number U8612-2B000. It's so new that my dealer didn't know it existed, and tried to tell me it didn't. They wanted to sell me part number U8614-2B000, which requires splicing. I told them to check with Hyundai, which they did, and surprise! I was right. The computer showed it in-stock in the warehouse, so I should have it in a few days. Retail price is $81.61."

    I bought mine from Morrie's Hyundai in Minnetonka, Minnesota. It took them two days to get it. I installed it myself in about 15 minutes.

    Here's the entire thread (see posts 11 and 13): james74, "How large a boat can I tow?" #1, 26 Jul 2006 7:59 am
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    TYPO on my part...it is U8612-2B000,

    but my harness instructions part# reads "Hyundai Sante fe Trailer Wiring Harness, part number U8610-2B100" (looks like they put the pkg part# on the harness only instructions!...very strange indeed)...Sorry but these old eyes.....(the 8 looked like a B at first glance)


    I am in Nevada and had to get mine from Roseville Hyundai Calif (do not have their local addy but I found them on the net and called them) since my dealer tried to chg me $96 (A LITHIA MARKUP!!!) + tax and had to order it. Roseville Hyundai made it come out to $81 just for good will inc fgt and tax. They were really nice about it too. I would call around...surely another dealer would ship one...assuming they still sell it separately

    And it DEFINITELY was available BY IT SELF. The actual dealer list is $81.61 ...it came in its own sealed factory box and neither my dealer or Roseville tried to stick it to me for the whole pkg....Ha $397 for a hitch pkg...that'l be the day. Many here tried to find a pair of connectors like that without success unless something has changed.By the time you get done and then add the converter box...it is worth it to just get the CORRECT hyundai part which includes the converter...stings a bit, but they can't bite your warrantee that way!!!

    AND THANKS TO kdahlquist WHO SUPPLIED THE CORRECT PART# IN THE FIRST PLACE TO HELP ME OUT!
  • goldsuvgoldsuv Posts: 51
    When I was researching the Santa Fe to replace my Sorento, the online service manual said the tow package has self leveling shocks and special springs. Self leveling shocks take a short while to pump up. See http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_9_183/ai_108098131
    The shocks are white, while the standards shocks are yellow. The base Santa Fe only has a towing cap. of only 1434 lbs. (from Hyundai website). Also the Liberty is BOF, not unibody. Its BOF which have had the higher towing cap.
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    I talked to my local hyundai guys this past week and they said that the design cars were built with self levelizing springs and shocks but not the actual cars sold on the lot. Anyway, my 2007 Limited with Touring/Tow Package just has the regular shocks and springs. The shocks and springs have paint markings on them to designate the type, but they are overall black in color.
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    From CarGurus on the 2007 Jeep Liberty. I'm not sure what to believe anymore.

    http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Overview-c6759-2007-Liberty.html

    UniFrame construction, which combines body and frame into one unit, makes the Liberty tougher than its competitors who use the body-on-frame technique.
  • bwd1970bwd1970 Posts: 23
    Thanks for the diagram. I know the shock measurements are different, but the mounting measurements look the same.
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