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Hyundai Sonata vs Honda Accord

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Comments

  • lilajlilaj Member Posts: 15
    Lol! This forum should be called 2008 sonata vs. 98-02 accord. Unfortunately im driving one this weekend as a rental (only other choose was a malibu) and i have to say hyundai has brought back my old 99 accord! The front looks just like the grille on the 98-02 accord, and the ride is as boring as watching paint dry. My accord was more fun to drive at 7yrs and 140k before i traded it. The interior is the worse, im forced to stare at green lit gauges and cheap radio displays. Well i guess my 06 accord just has me spoiled, its so worth the money! If others want to buy a boring cheap car because of its warranty promotion, go ahead but don't compare it to honda because they have the history to back up there reliability so u can keep your warranty, i want need it. :P

    btw, i drove an 08 exl v6 Thursday and this car exceeded my expectations. Come on ppl we all know the only car that can compare with the accord in its class is camry. Although this forum is good entertainment tho, Lol!
  • waltchanwaltchan Member Posts: 124
    I don't think the 2008 Honda Accord will get exceptional reliability. Last time, we had a 2003 Honda Accord that was redesigned, and it wasn't as reliable as the 2006 Hyundai Sonata. Same as for 2007 Toyota Camry. Look at Consumer Reports and the number of complaints posted here.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Have you seen sales figures? Most people don't care about the occasional blips or even recalls. I don't know of one manufacturer including Lexus(Toyota) that hasn't had any recalls or issues.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Consumer Reports also had my father's 2001 Malibu as a recommended car (big check mark). they were wrong on that one. You can bet he wouldn't recommend that car to anyone now. It obviously doesn't take much to impress CR.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I'm going out to test drive all the latest midsize sedans next weekend. I'd consider next year for purchase.

    Hyundai Sonata SE
    Nissan Altima 2.5S with Conv. Plus Pkg
    Honda Accord EX
    Toyota Camry SE
    Ford Fusion SEL
    Volkswagen Passat 2.0 Turbo

    Hopefully I can find all of them with manual transmission (I'm doubtful I'll find a manual Camry)

    I'm preparing a full report because lately with all these deals on the Sonata it's really got me thinking...plus I just love driving and testing them anyway ;) :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think you may have trouble finding most of these with a manual, probably highest odds for the Accord and Passat. I did see one Altima 2.5S on a dealer's lot with a manual the other day. Maybe you could post your review on the Mid-Sized Sedans 2.0 discussion, since it covers all these cars?
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    So far I've test driven the Accord EX with Manual transmission.

    I'm in Chicago now so finding manual versions is A LOT easier than when I lived in S. Carolina.

    I've seen several 07 Passat 2.0t manuals and few base 2.5S Altimas with manual tranny.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I had some time to kill today and walked around my local Hyundai dealer's lot, checking out the 2008 models. There were about a couple of dozen 2007 and 2008 Sonatas on the lot, but not one with a stick shift. Lots of base GLSes, but not one stick. No 2008 SE I4s (which only come with a stick). I've never actually seen a current-gen Sonata with a stick shift, although I've read a few reports here in Town Hall from people who own them.

    Maybe you'll have better luck in Chicago.
  • flc2006flc2006 Member Posts: 81
    You cannot compare a 2006-current Sonata to the 1998-2002 Honda Accord, both of the current Sonata engines use timing chains, All sonatas regardless of trim level come with stability control, In my opinion Honda Copied Hyundai as in terms of safety, Honda did not have active head restraints until the 2006 sonata had them, that tells me that Honda is taking Hyundai seriously, even though updated 2008 Accord still uses a rubber timing belt in the V6, i rather have the Sonata V6 over the Accord V6 you will have to to spend a 1,000 more to to have it changed every 6-7 years or 90,000, the Sonata will go over three times those intervals without having the hassle of a rubber timing belt, Honda needs to get out of old school timing belt V6 engines, in my opinion any car with a timing belt is disposable.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The timing belt on my grandmother's Accord doesn't need changing until 105k miles. Maybe the V6 is different?

    Also, where are you pulling $1,000 quotes for this change from?

    Nobody should EVER pay more than $500 or $600 to have the timing belt AND water pump replaced. Heck, my dealer doesn't even charge $700!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think 105k is the recommended belt change interval for the Warm, Sunny Places like CA, whereas 60k is the typical change interval for the Cold, Dark Places like MN.

    $1000 for a timing belt change is a rip-off, although I've heard some V6s are more expensive to service than I4s because it's harder to get access to the V6s.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think 105k is the recommended belt change interval for the Warm, Sunny Places like CA, whereas 60k is the typical change interval for the Cold, Dark Places like MN.

    In the Honda manual (my 1996 Accord LX 4-cylinder anyways), it says if you regularly drive in conditions under -20F or over 110F, to get the belt changed at 60k.

    Personally, I don't know anywhere in the US that has those conditions regularly except maybe Mt. Washington, or Death Valley.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Good question, Grad. But the word "regularly" is so subjective.

    My younger son live in Tempe, AZ. The temp is "regularly" over 110* for 4 months or so of the year. Does 4 months = "regularly?" It gets cold here in CT, sustained periods in the teens, thankfully not -20F. Maybe it's the rubber compounds, but it doesn't make that much difference to my body when it's that cold. :)

    Again, maybe the rubber compound, but on Honda's pre-'94 it was crucial to change the timing belt at 60K, otherwise you'd ruin the engine (at least in this climate).

    My '05 Sonata calls for timing belt replacement at 60K and I'll stick with that in order to protect the car and the warranty. What does your newer Accord call for, or does it have the timing chain?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If it were my car (my 1996 tells me go at 90k unless meeting the above mntioned conditions) I'd go every 90k unless I lived in a place like Phoenix, or International Falls, MN. It was in the 100s for several days this summer, with the average high for the month of August near 100 degrees. But it isn't "regularly" that hot. In the summer, the average high is around 92, with the lowest average low in the winter being around 30. Hence me keeping a 90k schedule. If it hit 110 or -20 three of four days out of the year, I'd still go at 90. Three or four MONTHS out of the year, I'd go at the earlier interval.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The 03-07 V6 3.0 liter Accord engine has a timing belt, and it has 105k miles for the timing belt change. I would venture to say that 90% of this country could go by that conservative figure. All the Accord timing belts I've heard about breaking were about twice the recommended interval when the belt snapped, and still the engine would have been repairable. I will change my own timing belt for probably under $300 for parts, but even if I had to pay someone else to change it for $700, it's a small price to pay for 100k miles of service.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It often gets under -20 F in Minnesota, especially outside the MSP metro area. I guess one way to look at it is, if the belt breaks at, say, 95k, what's the odds that it--and the engine--will be covered under the factory warranty? With the Accord, there's zero odds, unless the car is covered under an extended warranty. With the Sonata... well, it has a timing chain, so this is all kind of moot for the Sonata.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Thanks Elroy.

    It was a mechanic friend of mine, who retired at the end of '94 who told me that 60K miles was crucial. Otherwise the rods (is that the right term or item?) would be damaged, effectively making engine replacement about the same cost as repairing the damaged engine. But, that was 13 years ago???
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, the same problems would occur if the belt snaps, but the belts are made to last longer now.

    Happily, I have an I4 06 Accord and don't have to worry about that anymore on the new car. My 1996 will be due for its 2nd replacement coming up soon at 178k miles (I have 175k now; the belt was last changed at 88k).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    $475 and change was the cost to replace the belt and water pump in my Accord, and that was at 90K miles, here in Texas. My service adviser (who I know personally) asked me not to worry about it for another 10-15K miles, but I went for it anyway. Now with 92K miles since, I'm thinking about replacing it again. Its worth it.

    On that note, a friend of mine has 111K miles on her 2002 Jetta, and I asked her about timing belt... it hasn't been changed yet. That is happening next week.
  • flc2006flc2006 Member Posts: 81
    Im telling the truth a honda dealer is going to charge you about a thousand or more i live in san francisco, where everything is expensive, even for my 1998 sonata they wanted almost thousand dollars including the waterpump, i cannot stand cars with timing belts they are disposable.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Im telling the truth a honda dealer is going to charge you about a thousand or more i live in san francisco, where everything is expensive, even for my 1998 sonata they wanted almost thousand dollars including the waterpump, i cannot stand cars with timing belts they are disposable.

    Ok, well they aren't going to charge ME a thousand or more. I have gotten two quotes from places less than two miles from my home. One was $590, one was $490 (and for $525 they'd do all the belts on top of the water pump and timing belt).
  • flc2006flc2006 Member Posts: 81
    You drive a 4 cylinder that is why it is that cheap, V6 with timing belts require more work than a four cylinder, if you drive more than 90,000 you must also replace the timing belt tensioner, tensioners are only designed to last 120,000 miles.
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    Will I ever buy another brand of car? Not until an Accord fails to meet my expectations.

    Wow. I'm totally opposite. I've never bought the same make of car since I've been driving. I started with a Ford Focus, then Mazda 323, Acura Integra, Chevrolet Blazer, Honda Civic, Volkswagen GTI, Hyundai Elantra, and finally now a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer. Each car has its strengths and weaknesses. I like to see how different manufacturers flesh out their idea of vehicle development.

    To me, life is too short to buy the same thing over and over again. What's the saying...variety is the spice of life! :D
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Well I buy my cars new, and keep them for at least 10 years. It costs less than buying a new or used car every two or three years. I don't know how many years it took for you to go through all those cars, but over 10 years I would guess they ended up costing more than one Accord. The two Accords I bought were a 92 and an 03, which are three generations apart. The same quality, but hardly the "same car". I've also owned a few different other cars and trucks during that time, and that's enough variety for me. I don't get rid of a car I like very much, just to have some variety. I doubt I would have traded my Accord for any of the cars you mentioned above.
  • kingsalmonkingsalmon Member Posts: 97
    I kinda agree, although if looks and style are decent, that would make it even better.

    I have a Hyundai Elantra 2005 and I think it looks okay but not the most beautiful car out there. Wish I waited for the Sonata. Anyhow, it drives better than my 2003 Civic ever could wish for. And it had no problems where as my civic had multiple electrical failures.

    I have to admit, the Elantra eats a little more gas than my civic did, but then again, my civic I drove mostly hwy miles so who knows.

    So yeah, function and then style are at the top of my list. If i wanted to be flashy, I wouldn't even think about Hyundai or Honda. I just want to drive around in a decent looking car that will reliably will get me to where I want to go. Very simple really...
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    All my cars were bought new. There was a mistake in my list, the Ford Focus was actually a Ford Escort (duh!...now I know why the car was completely forgetable!). I started buying cars in 1984 and kept them anywhere from 2 to 5.5 years each. So 8 cars over the course of 23 years. Everything from a 2-door coupe, 3-door hatchback, 4-door sedan, and 5-door hatchback to an SUV! Who knows, maybe a pickup truck is in my future. ;)

    The Hyundai was the one I kept the longest. I test drove the Sonata thinking it would be my next car but didn't want something that big. The Lancer came out of nowhere, and I was impressed with its styling and features.

    Let me ask you something. When you get ready to trade in your Accord, will you test drive other makes or go straight to the Honda dealership and say "Here's my old Accord, I want a new one." I guess I have trouble understanding that way of thinking. :confuse:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Here's my old Accord, I want a new one." I guess I have trouble understanding that way of thinking."

    I typically jump around purchasing cars. Nissan is the only manufacturer to have three cars in a row purchased. While they were definitely okay, I would not get another Nissan or for that matter my first Infiniti.

    But I completely understand the philosophy of "stick with a winner". There is a reason Accord owners "blindly" purchase a new Accord. While some at edmunds may not understand the "stick with a winner" philosophy or even assign it another "name", it seems Honda does the right thing for it's customers. Sales numbers don't lie.
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    I guess my confusion comes from the possibility that there could now be a "better" car out there than a Honda based on your current needs or wants. But if you "blindly" purchase the same brand every time without test driving other makes, how are you to know?

    If you test drive other makes and still come back to the Honda, that's all well and good. I have no problem with that. I just don't see the logic in ignoring other cars from the outset simply because they are not built by Honda (or Nissan, or Chevy, or Audi, or....you get the idea).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Why do you care? Some people like to stay within their comfort zone. If something works, don’t mess with it. Then there are some people like me, who get opportunities to drive a variety of cars for various reasons. At this very moment, besides my two cars (98 Accord and 06 TL), I have 07 Sonata (rental) parked on the drive way which will be exchanged for another tomorrow morning. Would I need to test drive another Sonata? No. I have plenty of seat time on it. In fact, I have probably put about 15K miles on last two generations of Sonata. This doesn’t work with all cars though. Accords are extremely rare to find at rental lots so to experience one, test driving at a dealership becomes a necessity. This would be the same reason I didn’t feel the need to “test drive” a Camry or Taurus back in Fall 97. But I did consider a variety of cars.

    However, with my experience over the years, I’m leaning more towards the first category, where I may have found my comfort zone. So, my list is going to be much smaller than it was ten years ago. In fact, there may not be a list at all. I could find better use for my time. :)

    And it is not a case of "simply (not) built by Honda". It is more about what other manufacturers have delivered in the past and in the present. This is where brand loyalty steps in, and for very good reasons.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If someone wants to stay in their "comfort zone" and stick to one brand, or one model, that's their choice. The downside of that approach is that it doesn't account for the major changes that are taking place in the automotive world. Who would have thought a few years ago that a Hyundai would be seen by many people, including the consensus automotive press, as strong competition for the Accord? If someone last drove a Sonata in, say, 2004, they would have an outdated view of how the Sonata stacks up against the Accord. That's why I think it's worth the time to take a look at all current choices before buying a car, especially if it will be kept for many years. Otherwise, yuou really don't know if something else would meet your needs, and maybe for a lot less money.

    I am glad I broke from my Japanese-car "comfort zone" several years ago and took a look at other options, including the Focus and Elantra, before making the automatic choice for a Civic. I didn't like some of the things I saw in the Focus, but I found to my surprise that I liked the Elantra more than the Civic, not considering the price differential. But with the price difference, it was a really easy decision. Did it take some of my time? Sure. Most of it was in research on forums like this, auto mags, etc. But I had to go out and drive the cars, so that took a few hours total. Time well spent, IMO, given that I drove that car for 5-1/2 years (and it's still in my family) and it led to my purchasing a 2nd Elantra a few years later, and that car will be in the family for at least 10 years.

    If someone doesn't have the time or desire to check out the options, OK, that's their business. For me, buying a car is too big a purchase to not take some time to make the best choice possible for me, at that time, with my money.
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    Not so much care as curious. When I see statements like "Will I ever buy another brand of car? Not until an Accord fails to meet my expectations," it just strikes me as a sure-fire way to limit your exposure to lots of great cars being sold today.

    I'm a "free spirit," with no brand loyalty. Because of this I've been able to experience a wide variety of different makes and models. I've done the American 4WD SUV thing, the German turbocharged pocket rocket thing, the Korean basic transportation thing, and the Japanese reliability thing.

    Makes me wonder what I haven't done yet... ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Makes me wonder what I haven't done yet...

    THe Japanese Reliability/Pocket Rocket Combo? (Civic Si, etc). The Hybrid thing. The AWD car thing (Subaru, etc). There's still others you haven't stated! Others are cross-cultural (Japanese AWD Sedan, etc). :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "But if you "blindly" purchase the same brand every time without test driving other makes, how are you to know?"

    It's not worth the amount of money my time would cost me to find something "better" for my needs. For example, I have my sights set on the 335, I have no intention of test driving the G37 to find out if it actually is "better" and cheaper, I just don't care enough.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Who would have thought a few years ago that a Hyundai would be seen by many people, including the consensus automotive press, as strong competition for the Accord?"

    I view it as weak competition, and since it's my dollars I get to vote with my dollars. Sales numbers of Accord vs Sonota don't lie. You are not going to get people who are extremely satisified with Accord to move elsewhere.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hyundai got at least one buyer I know (me), someone who was an extremely satisfied Honda owner, to move elsewhere. I can't believe I'm the only one who would ever consider such a move.

    In a static world, if you are satisfied with what you have, why change? But it's not a static world, is it? For example, you have your sights set on a 335. Do you own a 335 now? I am guessing you don't. So why not stick with what you have? Do you or did you ever own an Accord? If so, why even consider changing to a different brand, e.g. BMW?
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    Too many choices, not enough lifetime. ;)

    As far as hybrids, I actually test drove the Prius. It was, well, in a word, weird. I've always liked Subies...thought about the new Impreza but it doesn't come with a factory-installed power sunroof (a must for me).

    Who knows what will draw my attention in 3 or 4 years when I'm ready to trade in my Lancer. A diesel-powered Honda Accord sounds mighty tempting. But then I'd have to break my tradition of never buying the same make twice. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, but an Accord powered by a different substance should change things enough, right? A Hybrid Civic would be less "wierd" than a Prius, I'd think. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I wouldn't view a 335 and an Accord/Sonota as competition. I view that as "trading up". That is the buyer satisified with their Accord, who wants to move up into the luxury segment or require a different vehicle due to lifes' circumstances.

    "But it's not a static world, is it?"

    Brand loyalty is a great thing, isn't it? I'm not trying to be pejorative, but it seems the people who bought Accord have already voted with their dollars. Whether you or I agree with their reasons, the sales are there to prove Honda is doing something right. Not to take anything away from Hyundai. It's not a car for me.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    But a curious comment coming from someone who is not brand loyal (e.g. TL vs. 335).

    A 335 is better than an Accurd or Sonata in some ways, but not in others. The one thing for sure is that it is different. So you are a prime example of someone who is looking for something different than an Accurd for your next car.

    I on the other hand am not brand-loyal either. Last time I checked, no automaker gives me anything for being brand loyal. Well, that's not really true... I can get a loyalty rebate sometimes. Otherwise I see no advantage buying in the same brand again and again without evaluating the alternatives. So, no, I don't see brand loyalty as a great thing, except for the salespeople from that brand.

    If I used historical sales figures to tell me what to buy, I'd have to seriously consider the Camry, and even the Taurus. Both have been, or were, the top-selling cars in their class for many years. I don't care much for either of them.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I am brand loyal, there is no doubt. Family members have owned other brands of midsize cars (including a last gen Camry, 06 Optima, 01 Malibu, 02 Altima), and I have had a few rentals myself (06 Impala, 05 Sebring, 06 Monte Carlo). None of these cars made me want to trade my Accord for them. Having the last Accord for 12 years, and having very few problems with it, gave me a sense of trust with Honda. I feel I can count on them to build a solid car. Sure other cars may be just as reliable, but how am I to know this? From a test drive, with the salesman sitting in the passenger seat. I certainly will not gain the confidence I have in the Accord simply with a test drive in another car. Do I want to gamble with over $20k dollars on another brand? I like my odds with an Accord. If the 03 Accord turns into a "Lemon", I will definitely shop around next time. But if this car does what I expect it to for the 10 or more years I plan to own it, 9 out of 10 the next car will also be an Accord. You can say no car company has earned your loyalty, but so far (16 years) these two cars have earned mine. Seems every time I read a comparison in some car magazine, they only re-enforce my choice, and give me no real reasons to try something else. If I bought a new car every 3-5 years, maybe I would be more flexible, but until an Accord fails me, I'm sticking with a winner. :D
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You know, if I had rented an Impala, Sebring, and Monte Carlo and held those up to the Accord, it would be no contest for the Accord for me too! :)

    One option you (and others) have, rather than just doing a short test-drive with a sales rep beside you, is to rent other cars for a day or more. Most mid-sized cars, including Sonata (but not Accord), can be rented pretty easily. I think that's a big help in evaluating cars.

    So, here's a question for you: besides your '03 Accord turning into a "lemon" (and let's leave transmission recalls out of this), what if anything could get you to consider another car, specifically the Sonata, next time? What if, for example, the next-gen Sonata in 2010 or so is ranked by at least some of the automotive press as being superior to the Accord (let's forget about the Edmunds' comparo that did just that, for now). Would that be enough for you to give it a try? Or, what?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    If my 03 V6 automatic transmission gives out on me at any point during my ownership, and I have to pay thousands for a replacement, that would be enough to change my choice. It would not take much, so Honda has to keep up it's end of the deal. They treat me right, and I'll return the favor. I spent less than $1000 (on repairs) on my last Accord, so if I can get close to that, I'll be satisfied.

    As far as the magazines, they will not make up my mind for me, I just like to hear other's opinions on the cars.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    (and let's leave transmission recalls out of this),

    Let's not. The transmission recall has been done on my Accord. My transmission has not missed a beat at 50k miles, and I don't expect it to. From what I've seen on this and other forums there is no "high failure rate" for these transmissions since the recall. So the fix has obviously worked.

    What if, for example, the next-gen Sonata in 2010 or so is ranked by at least some of the automotive press as being superior to the Accord (let's forget about the Edmunds' comparo that did just that, for now). Would that be enough for you to give it a try? Or, what?


    There is no comparison against the V6 Accord, that the Sonata won. Let's get that clear.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Correct, it was a like-priced Accord and Sonata. The V6 Accord didn't fit under the price cap for the comparo, so an I4 Accord was tested vs. the V6 Sonata.

    I must have remembered incorrectly, I thought it was you who told us before that you had the recall done and also had later transmission trouble on the Accord, but I must be thinking of someone else.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    You're correct, Edmunds' comparison did not include a V6 Accord. It was a comparison of the Sonata, Accord and Camry at a certain price range. IIRC, it was $22K AND was based upon MSRP. "Real world" pricing would have made a greater difference.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm not surprised that Sonata can only compete on price. For those of us who are willing to spend more, seem to have more choices. :)
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    Yes, let's compare fairly. The Sonata and the Accord are not in the same price class. If you want to compare an Accord to a similarly priced Hyundai, you'd have to compare the Accord to an Azera. That's no comparison at all.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You're right. The Accord still wins.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm not so sure about that. For around the $21k that I've seen Azeras start at in real-world prices (before T&L), you get a very luxurious, classy-looking (IMO), powerful, smooth, quiet, roomy, well-equipped sedan. What would you be able to get for $21k in a 2008 Accord right now? A base four-banger with automatic. If you're real lucky, maybe you can get alloys with that. jlindh was right... no comparison at all.

    Which is why we have this comparison of Accord vs. Sonata. And, when compared when comparably priced, the Sonata handlily (as in "no contest") bested the Accord in the last professional comparo done in that fashion. Those who think the Accord is, on equal dollars terms, heads and tails above the Sonata should take a good look at Edmunds.com's comparo of the like-priced Accord and Sonata. And also the C/D and Motor Trend long-term wrap-ups of the 2006 Sonata LX. I think they open some eyes... if minds are open also.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Which would only prove people aren't crazy about Azera either. If cars are being heavily discounted, there has to be a good reason. You may not see the reasons, but buyers like me do.
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