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Will the Chevy Volt Succeed?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here is the truth about the Volt.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/fox-tests-volt-runs-out-of-juice-in-lin- coln-tunnel/
  • ighigh Member Posts: 60
    Fox news and truth do not go together. :)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Um, I can't watch the video or tell what they were talking about, so I don't have any idea what the post is about.

    But if a Volt "runs out of juice" the car doesn't DIE.....the gas engine charges the generator and the car still runs until it runs out of gasoline...

    So...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That was not the point of the test made by the auto guy. It was the fact that he only got 25 miles on a full charge. Two days in a row. That is not an uncommon complaint.

    The EPA has determined through testing that the Chevy Volt would go a typical 35 miles on a full battery charged. Using the full 10.4 kwh of stored battery energy available, GM has determined the majority of drivers will experience from 25 to 50 miles of range.

    http://gm-volt.com/2010/12/29/getting-25-miles-of-range-or-less-in-the-chevy-vol- t/

    Which means with our high priced electricity in San Diego it would cost about $3.22 to go 25 miles. Hardly a good deal for a car that costs $46k.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, that's a regional thing, not a "BAD VOLT" thing....

    For example, I pay about 7.7 cents per kwh (offpeak) here in Phoenix, and it never gets cold enough to use the heater in the mornings.

    So for me, driving 17 miles per day for my commute, I could charge the Volt for about $0.84 cents per weekday (assuming a 25-mile EV range limit), and hardly ever need to use the gasoline engine.

    With gas at $3.30 and me getting 34 MPG in my TCH, that would be $1.65 per day to drive the TCH.

    So over a year, I'd save $228 versus buying gas for the TCH. Not much, but my case is unique because I'm already driving a fairly fuel-efficient car.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Wondering, whats a TCH?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    TCH = Toyota Camry Hybrid
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Thanks
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    February 13, 2012
    Obama hikes subsidy to wealthy electric car buyers

    The White House intends to boost government subsidies for wealthy buyers of the Chevy Volt and other new-technology vehicles — to $10,000 per buyer.

    That mammoth subsidy would cost taxpayers $100 million each year if it is approved by Congress, presuming only 10,000 new-technology autos are sold each year.

    But the administration wants to get 1 million new-tech autos on the road by 2015. The subsidy cost of that goal could reach $10 billion.

    The planned giveaway will likely prompt populist protests from GOP legislators, but it will likely also will be welcomed by auto-industry workers in the critical swing state of Michigan.

    That welcome is critical for President Barack Obama, who is touting his support for blue-collar manufacturing programs to help offset his low public approval ratings.

    The new subsidy level represents a 33 percent jump from the current $7,500 government payout for each Volt buyer, even though the Volt’s buyers are already among the wealthiest Americans. It will be offered to buyers of any new-technology autos, including battery-powered autos and cars powered by natural gas, said a White House official.

    The extra money for wealthy buyers will be borrowed funds, eventually paid off by future taxpayers in all income brackets.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    Nothing to worry about as congress doesn't pass anything anymore. Its dems against Rep not dems/rep for the people.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It could get costly, as about a dozen or more vehicles currently qualify for the $7500 tax credit. Many are just now coming to the market place. I don't think the $46k Volt will be the winner in the $10,000 giveaway. If it does get past Congress. I am not sure if this is another end around via the EPA or not. It will also require finding people with a $10k or more tax bill. You cannot carry the credit over. narrows the audience. But then you know all that already. The Volt and other electrics make more sense for fleet vehicles. Where lower electric rates apply.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,923
    edited February 2012
    As the above post points out, there are many vehicles that qualify for this, so singling out the Volt is spotty reporting, at best.

    Kind of a shame, however, that the Leaf went up nearly $2500 in base price this year, thereby offsetting the proposed increase in the credit.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    image
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Cali giving the Volt $1500 credit and car pool privileges. Cool.

    Volt sales likely to jump in Cali

    Dismal sales of the Chevrolet Volt called into question whether the GM could sell the 30,000 Volts it’s said it wants to this year. But part of the problem was the original car, although it operates without gasoline for short trips, didn't meet California’s emissions standards to qualify for carpool access (without a passenger) and a state tax rebate of $1,500.

    Today GM announced that Volt’s with a new low emissions package meet the state's standards, and will be available at 140 dealerships in California by the end of the month. That’s too late to help February sales figures, but it could give sales a boost in March.

    Carpool access is a big deal on the crowded highways of Southern California. GM says commuters who use them cut their driving time by 36 minutes per day.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I cannot find anything from the state verifying that. And why not the $5000 given to the Leaf?

    Unfortunately, the Chevy Volt—one of the star plug-in cars—will not receive the coveted $5,000 California rebate because the vehicle does not qualify as an Advanced Technology-Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV). A number of conventional hybrids, like the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid, have qualified as AT-PZEVs for years. The Nissan LEAF is a pure zero-missions vehicle, and will therefore be designated as a ZEV.

    The lack of a $5,000 rebate will put the Volt at a cost disadvantage compared to the Nissan LEAF, which will indeed qualify for the $5,000 California rebate. The net result could mean that the Chevy Volt has a net price $10,000 or more than the LEAF.

    G.M. announced that the warranty all of the Volt’s electric-drive and battery components for 8 years or 100,000 miles. However, CARB requires that the emissions equipment of AT-PZEVs have a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles. If the Volt’s battery pack, for example, is considered part of the emissions control system, then G.M. would need to warranty the pack for 10 years or 150,000 miles, which apparently the company is not willing to do. That’s probably the right business decision.

    So has GM raised the warranty bar to 10 years and 150,000 miles?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, you'd have to ask the Cali legislators about why the amount is different.

    Google this phrase if you still are doubting me:

    "chevy volt california carpool lane tax credit"
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    More:

    "The first 35 miles or so that you drive in a fully charged Chevrolet Volt are emissions-free, but until now, that hasn't been good enough to make it eligible for a highly coveted Clean Air Vehicle Decal in California. Chevrolet has added a Low Emissions Package to the Volt that lets it achieve the California Air Resources Board's Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle rating (AT-PZEV).
    High-occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes in California require two or three occupants in the car to drive in the faster, less congested lanes. However, certain alternative fuel vehicles are approved for green or white Clean Air Vehicle stickers that give them single-occupancy access to the state's carpool lanes.
    The Chevrolet Volt, which is an extended-range electric vehicle that uses electricity stored in a battery to propel the car for 35 miles before kicking on the gasoline engine, wasn't eligible to apply for one of the 40,000 decals. To join the clean vehicle fleet, Chevrolet created a Low Emissions Package for the Volt. The new package brings its tailpipe emissions down to near zero, extends the emissions systems warranty to 15 years or 150,000 miles, and extends the battery warranty to 10 years or 150,000 miles.
    Commuters who use carpool lanes in Southern California save an estimated average 36 minutes a day, according to GM. The Volt's new status as an AT-PZEV vehicle in California will make it qualify for the green Clean Air sticker. It also makes them eligible to receive up to $1,500 in state rebates through the Clean Vehicle Rebate Project.
    But not all Volts can apply; only the extended range hybrids with the Low Emissions Package are on the Clean Vehicle list. Production of Volts with this new package began this week and should be available for sale in California Chevy dealerships by the end of the month. You'll be able to tell if the Volt qualifies by checking the Vehicle Identification Number, which will have an E, F, G, or H in the fifth position of the VIN number."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    And.....more:

    Volts achieve AT-PZEV and earn a rebate and a car pool sticker

    "The 2012 Volt with the Low Emissions Package should begin arriving in California in the next two weeks. It will cost the same as the regular version: $39,145 plus an $850 destination fee."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here is the info from the state. They are still waiting for EPA approval. It will be limited to the first 40,000 buyers and up to $1500 tax credit.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/clean_vehicle_incentives.pdf

    Notice that the Prius Plug-in Hybrid will be competing for the 40k green HOV stickers and tax rebate.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

    This will make the Volt models sitting on the showroom now about worthless. Bet that made the CA Chevy dealers real happy. No wonder so many were refusing to take the Volt. They had insider knowledge. Better bet for a HOV sticker would be a i-MiEV or Leaf. No limits and $2500 rebate.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    worthless volts on showroom floor in Cali because of the HOV pollution-increasing restrictions! Cool - I'll take one.

    btw, does anyone know percentage of drivers who routinely & strategically ignore the HOV rules, in areas where the separation is paint not an actual barrier?

    i'll drive my Cruze to Sacto from Boston tomorrow to trade for a Volt, using the carpool lane along the way if that's what it takes.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    General Motors Co. announced the temporary suspension of Chevrolet Volt production and the layoffs of 1300 employees, as the company is cutting Volt manufacturing to meet lower-than-expected demand for the electric cars.

    "Even with sales up in February over January, we are still seeking to align our production with demand," GM spokesman Chris Lee said. The car company had hoped to sell 45,000 Chevy Volts in America this year, according to the Detrot News, but has only sold about 1,626 over the first two months of 2012.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Um, are you kidding? They are just rolling it out to new markets. And gas prices going up?

    End of the Volt? Harumph..... :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2012
    So are electric prices. I say it is a last ditch effort. Nothing says they have to reopen 4/23. GM also said they may move mfg to China. GM says CA changed their rules. CA says GM extended their warranty. Who is telling the truth? And the $10k was only a passing thought. I would not count on getting the $1500 rebate on a Volt when and if they make it here. Half the money is gone and the Nissan Leaf has gotten most of it. Probably get the rest.

    http://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/clean-vehicle-rebate-projec- - t

    PS
    You can get a Leaf at near invoice now. With the two rebates at $10k less than $23k.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    image
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    A reporter is looking to hear from Republican and Democrat consumers who want to discuss the Chevy Volt. If you are a Republic or a Democrat, and are willing to discuss the Volt with a reporter, please email PR@edmunds.com no later than noon Pacific /3p.m. Eastern Wednesday, March 7, 2012 with your daytime contact information.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited March 2012
    If that happens, remember this post. I will EAT AN ENTIRE VOLT, piece by piece, if this happens.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You may have a hard time finding one to eat for a couple years, till they start dying. :shades:

    My prediction, they will still be available made in China. GM already mentioned that months ago. Very convenient closing. They are mostly made in China anyway. May as well assemble them there.

    After Receiving Bailout, GM May Move Volt Production to China
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    I'm bookmarking that one - not because I have any particular animosity toward the Volt, but I want to be there to film it for our InsideLine site. Plus, it'll get a MILLION hits on youtube.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Bring a case of BBQ sauce. I hear Lithium batteries are tasty with KC BBQ sauce. :shades:
  • kentmoon1kentmoon1 Member Posts: 2
    I leased it today. I think lease is the better way to go avoiding hassle with tax rebate ...etc. Does anyone know if I can still qualify for $1500 CA Tax credit since I am leasing it? The dealer received 4 Volts yesterday, and it looks like I got the last one, so they are selling well for now.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Did the dealer take the $7500 tax credit and reduce the lease? I did not think the CA AT-PZEV Volt was going to be available for about a month. Did the dealer guarantee it was an HOV qualified Volt? Only the new ones coming out are eligible for the Green HOV sticker. Hope you like it.

    The catch is that you need to buy a 2012 Chevy Volt equipped with a low emissions package. These are being made available for Volt’s built and sold in the state of California. Keep in mind not ALL 2012 Chevy Volt have the low emissions package and will not qualify. GM only started to produce the Volt’s with low emissions packages as of February, and will start to deliver low emissions Volt’s in March.

    If you are on a dealer lot and want to make sure the Volt you are buying will qualify for an HOV sticker, you can check the VIN number of the Volt. Look at the 5th position of the VIN for the letters (E, F, G, or H) For example, my Chevy Volt VIN number is 1G1RD6E4XBU100010. The 5th position is a “D” so it does not qualify for HOV lane privileges. Older Volts cannot be retrofitted to include a low emissions package so if you bought in the first year you are out of luck!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    image
  • ighigh Member Posts: 60
    I am in the Bay area. Got the base with rear camera package - 200 below invoice and 0% for 60 months. Qualifies for 7500 federal and 1500 CA tax credit (correct VIN). Carpool sticker not
    important to me. Will be wife's car - daily commute 31 miles. Yearly 9000 miles. Hoping to get
    by on one tank per year. The electricity comes from my solar panels.
    The dealer cannot keep them on the lots - already pre-sold 3 of the 4 new CA ones allotted
    to him. If Chevy is having trouble selling the car elsewhere maybe it can send all of them to the
    Bay area :) .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With solar the Volt makes more sense. I don't think the ones sent to other states have the same warranty. If they sell well in CA, Chevy will send most of the production there. Not sure where they are coming from with the factory shut down and all the people laid off. The 10 year battery warranty would be a big plus if I needed a car like that.
  • kentmoon1kentmoon1 Member Posts: 2
    I have double checked VIN, and it was definitely CA HOV car (5th Digit is G). I drove it home yesterday (60 miles away), and it went 45.5 miles before gasoline engine kicked in...not bad. Car was smooth and drove very well.

    I checked CA DMV site, and I have to wait until I have DMV registration card before I can apply for green HOV sticker.

    US Bank uses $7500 to reduce lease rate. HOWEVER, (this is kind of strange) residual is increased by $7500, so it won't make sense for me to purchase the car after the lease because residual is very high. I think it was around $26000 after three years and 15K per year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I understand the leasing company getting the tax credit. Does not seem right they add it back on the end. As you say best to give it back to them after the lease ends. If you really like it after 3 years you may want to buy a new one. If you don't have solar and live where it would work, that would be advisable. CA utility rates are outrageous. Do keep us posted how well you like the car. Who knows how many people's thinking you may turn around on the car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I understand the leasing company getting the tax credit. Does not seem right they add it back on the end. As you say best to give it back to them after the lease ends. If you really like it after 3 years you may want to buy a new one. If you don't have solar and live where it would work, that would be advisable. CA utility rates are outrageous. Do keep us posted how well you like the car. Who knows how many people's thinking you may turn around on the car.
  • ighigh Member Posts: 60
    The factory will close on March 19th and stay shut till Apr 23. The special CA Volt production started on Feb 6. Those Volts are currently arriving at the dealerships. The factory has a capacity of about 4000 Volts per month currently.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited March 2012
    awesome move with the solar-charged volt, iggy ! do you have a website showing maximally nerdly photos of components/systems involved in setting that up? is the car a big-dog with torque & power at real-world big-dog highway speeds? Or is volt really only good for commuting & around-town?
  • ighigh Member Posts: 60
    Unfortunately I do not have a website yet but I am thinking of setting one up. My renewable energy project is much more ambitious than the Volt. I want to be energy independent in day-to-day living. My solar panel system is a 11.8KW standard grid tied system. It generates about 17000 kwH of energy every year. It makes my all-electric home net zero energy and then there is about 6000 kwH left yearly for the cars. The Volt will use up about 3000 and I have 3000 kwH remaining for the Ford Focus Electric which I will buy next. Looking forward to a life free from PG&E, Chevron and Shell. Now if only they could make the plug in hybrids flex fuel, then I could get rid of all fossil fuels once and for all.

    About the Volt, it drives really well. Electric mode is buttery smooth with 0-60 about 8 sec. 0-30 is better than a 3 series due to the instant electric torque. The handling is excellent due to the low center of gravity resulting from the batteries. In gas mode with complete battery depletion, it is a bit sluggish at times but very quickly the generator builds up supplementary battery power and again you are good to go for those occasional high accelerations. You with hit 80-85 mph very often if you do not pay attention. The seamless drive train integration is a marvel of automotive engineering. No wonder it is car of the year in US and Europe. It is unfortunate that people trash this car for political reasons. This is what US innovation is all about.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I envy your solar system. Until recently SDG&E would not let you run the meter backward to save daytime power for night time usage. They now allow it. Though you cannot sell them power, only use it yourself. If you put in a battery system you can eliminate the utility completely and not be subject to outages and rolling blackouts. A well and being on septic would complete the system if you heat and cook with electric. Sounds like you are getting lined out. I wanted to convert my old Ranger to Electric. Just could not justify the cost. I would steer as far away from ethanol as you can get. It is not a good fuel. Maybe think about biodiesel as diesel hybrids come to the USA.
  • ighigh Member Posts: 60
    Actually I am an electrical engineer (every other person in Silicon Valley is one I think :D ) and designed the system myself and got an electrical contractor to install it. Right now solar panels are dirt cheap - as low as 85 cents a watt. You can actually get the 12 KW system installed for about 26K after rebates (I am not kidding. My cost last year was about 32K). That is $2.2/watt. If you assume conservatively 20 year life it works out to 7.5 cents/Kwh. No utility in CA can sell power that low now all the time and definitely not in another 20 years. So it is a great investment to make. I am in the middle of an incorporated city and probably cannot have my own septic and well. Heating, cooking, hot water is all electric - so no natural gas either.

    Ethanol can be a solution if used in moderation. In case of a flex fuel plug in hybrid 80% of the miles will be in electric and just 20% in ethanol. US already has the capacity to support that. It takes less than $500 to convert a gas engine to flex fuel and existing gas pumps can support it with minor modifications. The Govt can create enough incentives so that people remember to charge as often as possible and use Ethanol only on long drives where waiting to charge is not an option.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2012
    I go along with all your getting as much bang for the buck using Solar. Our tiered system in San Diego has most everyone in the 31 cents per KWH every month. I use all CFLs and am very frugal. My bill averaged $92 per month last year. My neighbor across the street with a smaller home never has a bill under $200. Propane is the worst part of the utilities. About $240 per month during the 4 months of cool weather. And we did not get a single frost this winter. We got a solar assessment, and the salesman said he could not save us any money with our low bill. If solar keeps coming down I will be tempted to get out from under the utility.

    I am not a fan of ethanol. I think the damage to the environment far outweighs any positives it presents. The only viable alternative I can see for the future is Algae biodiesel and other biofuels. It still has a long way to go. Do keep us posted on your Volt.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    thanks for all the info, igh ! low CG.
    sometimes lately as i sit stopped in commute/rush-hour traffic I wonder about getting a vehicle with mpg better optimized for immobility. :|

    it's true about the EEs in silicon valley. i had solar heat panels when I lived out there, but no PVs... a pal tried work installing home PV systems here on the east coast but not enough business in that as of a couple years ago... maybe better now.
  • unhappykrisunhappykris Member Posts: 3
    An"electric" car is actually a "coal powered" car in the US where 60% of power is coal generated. When will we learn that governments cannot decide what will sell over the Free Market. This is simply because government decisions are made by FEWER PEOPLE mostly for political gain or ideals (like: saving the planet or going green)while the Free Market with its "Invisible Hand" will ALWAYS win out in the end as these decisions are made by MANY MORE PEOPLE exercising freedom to buy or not. Imagine if Windows or the Iphone or Facebook or groceries were developped by government grants!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    unhappykris says, "An"electric" car is actually a "coal powered" car in the US where 60% of power is coal generated."

    First off, I'm sorry to hear you are so unhappy. Cheer up.

    Secondly, as all "generalities" tend to be, your brush is a little too wide.

    Anyone who owns/uses solar panels and drives an electric car is driving a "solar powered" EV.

    People near (or who get power from) nuclear power plants are driving a "nuclear powered" EV.

    People near (or who get power from) wind farms are driving a "wind powered" EV.

    People near (or who get power from) geothermal sources are driving an "earth powered" EV.

    People near (or who get power from) hydro electric plants are driving a "water-force powered" EV.

    People near (or who get power from) "clean coal" power plants are driving a "clean coal powered" EV.

    People near (or who get power from) natural gas power plants are driving a "natural gas powered" EV.

    The goal is to drive a vehicle that is AT-PZEV or cleaner. Many EVs fall into this category, depending on the power source for the electricity.
  • digliberrydigliberry Member Posts: 3
    In your opinion, how does the Chevy Volt compare to the Nissan Leaf?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Having driven neither ( although I AM going to take a Leaf for a spin just to see how it drives out of curiosity) I would imagine the Volt must be a little heavier since it's carrying around a gas engine as well as batteries. The spec pages on Edmunds list the Volt at 4553 pounds, but give no weight for the Leaf. Not sure why, but having sat in the Leaf and looked it over, I'm guessing it's somewhere north of the 3330 pounds that my 2012 Versa weighs. Subtract the engine, add the batteries and I'm sure that adds at least a couple of hundred pounds.

    I'm just curious to see how the package operates. Neither of them are a practical option for me, so I'm interested to see what I'll wind up thinking about them afterwards.
  • ighigh Member Posts: 60
    Volt weight is 3781 lbs. Leaf is 3360 lbs. Volt has dual drive train but 2/3 the battery of Leaf. Volt motors are 150 hp whereas leaf is 110 hp. So Volt 0-60 in electric is 8.5s, Leaf around 9.5.

    The main issue with the Leaf is the range anxiety. It basically limits you to within a 40 mile radius from home unless you can charge at work. Volt has no such drawbacks though it just seats 4 against the Leaf's 5.

    We use the Volt as the family sedan for our family of 4 and wife's commute car (28 miles total). I will get a Leaf or Ford Focus Electric for my commute (about 18 miles total). I personally do not like the styling of the Leaf but that is a personal matter.

    The second car I drive now is the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. That will remain as the third car for vacations and long trips. I think currently this is the most optimal scenario from gas consumption point of view - gas free in day to day life with about 100 gallons per year for vacations/long trips.
  • ighigh Member Posts: 60
    Since I was one of them this is really good news for me. This gives me hope that the Volt will not go the way of GM's EV1.

    An interesting observation is if everybody drove a Volt for commute and just charged overnight in their garage/carport like a cellphone, US could get rid of ALL crude oil imports right now. Now that would be something to look forward to. :)
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