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Comments
The Sandman
The Sandman
Will the base LX be watered down with the black door handles, etc.? Will there be an LX-S sedan and how will that be different from a VP?
Here's how it'll likely be, danny, if the past is a good guide.
DX models won't change (if they still exist).
VP models are a step-up from a DX. Think of it as a DX with a convenience package. In the past the VP has added things like standard A/C, a stereo, and a couple of other minor upgrades. The A/C and stereo would be the main ones. Pricing should split the gap from DX to LX.
LX models will not change much.
LX-S models will split the gap in an LX and an EX, much like the VP does with the DX and LX. You can look for things such as upgraded wheels, possibly an upgraded stereo, and possibly audio controls on the steering wheel; these wouldn't be all the upgrades, but give you an idea. Pricing should split the difference in LX and EX models.
These models are not meant to make things more confusing, but instead to provide more options to buyers who want some uplevel features but can't afford the big price jumps in DX, LX, and EX.
Now that gas prices are SO high, the Civic will be on a lot of shoppers' radars. Being competitive with prices and trim levels will help ensure people drive home in new Civics instead of Corollas, Cobalts, etc.
DX
DX VSC
DX AT
DX AT VSC
LX
LX VSC
LX AT
LX AT VSC
LX-S
LX-S VSC
LX-S AT
LX-S AT VSC
EX
EX VSC
EX AT
EX AT VSC
EX-L
EX-L VSC
EX-L AT
EX-L AT VSC
EX-L navi
EX-L navi VSC
EX-L navi AT
EX-L navi AT VSC
Of course, Honda might simplify this trim structure by making VSC standard on the higher-line trims, and/or not making VSC available at all on the lower trim levels (ala 2009 Fit). But any way you slice it.... it's a lot of trims! :confuse:
Don't look for VSA to be optional on Civics; expect it to be standard on some/all Civics, or not at all. You won't find it as an "option" I'll bet.
It'll be DX, VP, LX, LX-S, EX, EX-L. Transmission choice will be optional, as will NAVI on EX and EX-L models.
That's my bet.
I'll take your bet that we will not see VSC as an "option" on ANY Civic. It will be part of the trim levels.
Don't blame me for it!! :sick:
Edit: Check out post 105 of the 2009/2010 Fit discussion. It gives the trims for the 2009 Fit as follows:
GE8729EW 2009 FIT 5DR 5MT KA
GE8749EW 2009 FIT 5DR SPORT 5MT KA
GE8769GW 2009 FIT 5DR SPORT VSA&NAV 5MT KA
GE8829EW 2009 FIT 5DR 5AT KA
GE8849EW 2009 FIT 5DR SPORT 5AT KA
GE8869GW 2009 FIT 5DR SPORT VSA&NAV 5AT KA
Notice that the transmission choices, nav/no nav choice, and VSA/no VSA choice are part of the trim levels, not options
So depending on whether Honda always includes VSA with Nav and/or Nav and leather on the Civic, the trim levels will be along the lines I laid out, maybe with some consolidation at the top end and some simplification at the bottom end if Honda doesn't put VSC on all models, all the way down to DX.
Or as you said, they could do the simple thing, the right thing for safety, and make VSC standard across the board, like they did ABS for the 2006 Civic.
How can you define a difference in trim level vs. option in a Corolla LE with an automatic transmission and a Civic LX with automatic transmission?
There's no difference as far as I can tell. They sit on the lot the same way, and are listed on the sticker in that way. The difference is that the Corolla will have MORE options.
But maybe one of our resident Honda sales folks will set the record straight on how Honda handles trims and options, specifically with the Civic but also in general.
The VSC will be required soon on all cars, so who really knows how many trim levels it will come on initially this year.
We love our 2008 Civic. The EX's are really in short supply at the moment. Quite a few 2-doors left on the lots.
Brad
when did honda start offering the 08's last year?
other than maybe some different color options, the main issue i have with the car is the parking break location (rubs my knee).
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2009-honda-civic.htm
I live in a snowy area (about 3 months out of the year)...May consider a domestic or Korean 2009 if ESC is standard.
I have it already on the Si, but I've never noticed any part of it work other than the traction control program. I guess I don't over-drive enough.
Discs also cool better and seem to be easier to get more surface area (which is why they cool better) available to be acted on by the clamping forces produced by the brake piston (swept area). Don't let the idea of more available force fool you, as tires are responsible for the lion's share of a car's braking, being that they are what actually grips the road. However, the ability to generate this force sooner and more evenly can reduce braking distances.
Rear drums aren't terrible, since the majority of a car's braking is done up front, which is why front brakes are larger (Or at least more massive, by weight; many trucks use larger diameter less massive discs in rear. Why? I assume that it is for the potential to exert more leverage in high load situations; obviously not a factor where drums are involved, as they are still in many trucks.) However, it's really that extra edge when it counts that makes them worthwhile.
Typically, drum equipped vehicles don't stop with the same authority as the same model with optional rear discs, but it may be only a ten percent difference between them. I like that kind of margin and appreciate having brakes that are more capable than I need, since that ten percent is around a car length. Additionally, since discs cool better, the difference might even be more dramatic after driving down a long hill, or in heavy traffic with lots of stops that heat up the brakes.
I think I'm going for the Elantra SE due to safety and price. The Civic LX can't match the features of the Elantra SE. In 2008, ESC should be standard in every car. I saw a Consumer Reports video where a father is suing an automaker for not having ESC in a car that his daughter died in.
Things to note: Larger, mesh grille opening, extra air inlets in the front bumper, amber blinkers.
More photos can be seen here (that are larger format than I've used here) at this link and at this one.
Civic sales are off the charts right now, as it stands.
Honda already has the trans and they already have all the parts and trim pieces to easily swap it into the non-Si cars. I'm sure potential buyers would gladly pay the additional few hundred bucks for the upgraded trans knowing it will pay for itself with the increase in mileage. Honda gets to boast about even better mileage as well as having a real economy car with a 6 speed.
It seems to be a no brainer to me.....
I even used to have 74 hp 1.7 liter VW Passat (Quantum) with a stick and it also did 2100 rpm at 60 mph. This was in 1983 when everybody was trying to be real efficient. 5th gear was not labeled with a 5, but with an E for economy. The car would do 96 mph in 3rd gear and both 4th and 5th were overdrives.
I do understand that I am in the minority and honda (and others) are always fearful these days of promoting economy and efficiency because it screams "cheap". Why build and efficinet affordable wagon when you can make an inneficient SUV that has less room and provides greater profits. This has been the mantra - hopefully changing now.
The only way they can sell the MT is as a performance option hence the short gearing. After all they even killed the lean burn civics because economy did not sell. Hopefully this will change now that gas prices are high. I also never did understand why they put the most efficient engine in the least efficient body style. Seemed like you were alienating everybody with that move. A 4 door hatch or wagon would have had much more appeal to the "efficiency" types.
You're not in the minority for fuel efficiency - if you were, the ugly-as-hell Prius wouldn't sell, and the Honda Civic wouldn't have taken over the #1 car sold in America slot from the Ford F150. The Civic comes in a "normal" economy car - the DX/LX/EX, and it comes in a Hybrid which easily gets the rated 45MPG+. So I absolutely fail to see where your assertion that Honda is fearful of promoting economy because it doesn't sell comes from. Probably a 1/3 of all Civic sedans I see are hybrids.
Honda even used to sell a manual tranny hybrid until 2005. It was discontinued for a number of reasons, one being a lack of sales. The other is notably that when compared to a CVT, a manual transmission isn't nearly as efficient.
So, if you want pristine fuel economy, get the 110hp CVT Hybrid. Hell, you can expect better average fuel economy in the CVT LX/EX over the Manual tranmission on the same trim levels. But if you want to control your car driving experience, get a manual and suffer the hit.
For "efficiency" types - there's the Fit.
A 140 hp Civic can easily pull a taller gear. The Corolla did it with just as much weight. Remember, my 74 hp Quantum was a midsize not a small car. Even in 1983 it weighed nearly as much as todays Civic. Occasional down shift on the highway - so what I bought the manual because I enjoy shifting.
I have an Accord now and it could also easily pull a much taller gear. Right now it easily goes up moderate hills at 45 mph in 5th gear. I have never had to downshift on any highway. Currently it is about 2380 rpm at 60 mph. It could easily do 2,000 or 2,100 if it had a 6th gear.
We are just spoiled with power. Look at Europe and see a 518i. This was a while back, but this is a 5 series with the same engine size as the current Civic (the current 5 series has a 2.0 liter base engine). It did fine driving through the Alps and on the autobahn. Why do we need so much more to drive around the beltway on the way to work.
If fuel economy wasn't a selling point and important to people before 2008, then why did Honda use a new form of i-VTEC in it's non-si civic trims that is geared towards fuel economy, and not performance as it was in years past, as well as in the current si engine? Honda cars are high RPM cars, and the new fuel-efficient i-VTEC is working under 3500 RPM. In an American vehicle, 3500RPM is pretty high - in a Honda it's where it just starts opening up.
The Si's engine is VERY peaky in nature, and would be completely neutered with an automatic, therefore I don't look for Honda to do it; just as they didn't in the similarly peaky, low-torque S2000 Roadster.
Exactly my point as well. I would buy a 6 MT Civic EX and downshift whenever it was necessary, without any complaints, because that's where the fun is!
The milage boost would be an added perk as well as the cool factor of having the only economy car with a 6 speed. Besides all that, the SI 6 MT is one of the favorite manuals of all time, according to the major magazines.
I think Honda should do it.
Uh... no.
Uhhh, favorite maybe, that is until the 3rd gear syncro starts doing its little act.
Best Regards,
Shipo