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2001 - 2006 Honda CR-Vs

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Comments

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    LOL, Yeah, I think I'd call this one a nicher.

    I don't expect it to out-sell the CR-V. Though it may put a dent in the CR-Vs sales record. One thing it may do is free up Honda to raise the content (and price) for the CR-V. We may start seeing some of the JDM and Canadian toys in the US CR-Vs.
  • ssoto1ssoto1 Member Posts: 66
    I have my 2002 cr-v for 2 days now, but wondering about the white smoke coming out of the tailpipe is that normal. kind of worried or is it because it's new.But i do love the looks and drive.Happy cr-ving....
  • muckyduckmuckyduck Member Posts: 219
    I've noticed the smoke coming out of the tail pipe also.

    Does anyone have a squeaking/creaking noise from the front right side - I think it is coming from around the SRS passenger airbag - the dash area does not seem to be firm around the area where the bag is. At least it is not as firm as around the driver's side - I know there is no airbag on that side. It is fairly easy to push down on the dash area surrounding the airbag. It can be pretty loud when cross lanes and hit those white refelectors that are imbedded in the road (the ones that glow at night when headlights hit them).

    Otherwise, it is one, if not the one, of the quietest cars I've ever owned. Road noise is heard on bad roads, but it still is not very much.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Mitsu is going to unveil the Outlander (US's version of the Airtrek) at the NY Auto show.
  • tomsrtomsr Member Posts: 325
    If I install a non Honda alarm on my 02 CRV EX
    what kind of problems can I have? How would or could it interface with my anti theft system? I can get a perimeter alarm free installed free from
    a Ford dealer will it void my warranty.My son is a
    iechnician for Ford that's why it is fre.
  • fasteddie9fasteddie9 Member Posts: 63
    From the Honda OwnerLink:
    Exhaust Smoke

    Freshly started vehicles may emit some white smoke as condensed water vapor in the exhaust system is burned off. If smoke persists after your Honda warms up, it could indicate a problem.
    White indicates an internal coolant leak.
    Blue indicates burning oil.
    Black can indicate either an ignition or fuel system problem.

    If you think there is a problem, bring your Honda to your dealer for service. Filling out the Service Visit Preparation Form prior to your service will help to further pinpoint the problem.

    Hope this helps
  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    I would be very careful about aftermarket systems unless your son is experienced in Honda electricals and alarms. Honda uses what they call the multiplex system and apparently the wrong connection can blow your ECU and you'd be out $1500.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Element is definitely a niche vehicle. Very targeted audience, absolutely.

    I agree with varmint that they could move the CR-V upscale, maybe offer the stuff from the Open Air concept everyone seemed to drool over. VSC and bigger wheels, plus monotone paint, at least. Add ABS to the LX model, keep the EX as is, and then offer an SE model with all the goodies. The Pilot could pick up where the CR-V left off.

    Outlander: could the name have been any less original? Half Outback, half Highlander? And 140hp isn't going to put much of a dent in today's top contenders.

    The Nissan Murano looks far more intersting, with more than 240hp and AWD. We'll see about the price, though.

    -juice
  • kentwongkentwong Member Posts: 36
    "Element is definitely a niche vehicle. Very targeted audience, absolutely"
    I hope it won't sell like a Pontiac Aztek. What is Honda thinking?
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    I bought an '02 CR-V. Paid pretty good coinage for it. Now Honda tells me they will sell a smaller vehicle with the same engine and AWD system for thousands less than I paid. I feel (for lack of a better term) betrayed by Honda.

    Do they do this with any other vehicle? That is, offer the same engine, drivetrain, etc. from a higher priced vehicle in a lower priced vehicle? I can't think of any. I know the Element is a smaller vehicle, won't have the same amenities, etc. but I just feel something is wrong about this. They should have used a smaller engine or something to differentiate it more.

    Of course for Honda it is win-win. And for the purchasers of the Element it's a great deal, the same engine and AWD system as in a more expensive vehicle. But what about the people who bought the CR-V? Am I completely off the wall?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Honda is trying to enter a new niche, not compete with its vehicles in established niches (i.e. CR-V).

    In other words, it'll bring in new buyers that wouldn't otherwise have bought a Honda. If CR-V owners don't like it, well, they succeeded. They'd rather attract other people, earn a few new sales. People that do not want a traditional look.

    Honda showed the Model X last year, and hinted at production pretty early on. I think that for once they were actually not secretive, honestly.

    The value would appeal to me, as would the function. I value function over form, though perhaps I'm in the minority. There may be 50k buyers per year in that minority.

    -juice
  • moonkatmoonkat Member Posts: 265
    ticktock4321:
    What makes you say Element will be smaller?

    Element is trendy, decontented CRV. Probably noisier, may be lighter (quicker?), and likely roomier due to lower ground clearance (same/increased height with less ground clearance means more interior space), and boxy shape.

    We shall see.

    Oh, and Honda has done this before....Acura MDX vs Honda Pilot.
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    What about people like me who spent money on a CR-V only to see it's engine and drivetrain in a lower priced vehicle? That was my question/comment. You sort of say that Honda doesn't care, and I think you are right.

    What if the engine from the TL was offered in the Accord? Wouldn't TL buyers have an issue with that? As far as I can recall Honda never did something like this. Figures, after I buy the CR-V.

    Basically Honda is saying to me, ha ha we got you to buy a more expensive vehicle with the same engine and AWD we'll be putting in a lower priced vehicle. Not very nice, IMO.
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    Nope. Pilot and MDX will have different engines (at least as an option and as soon as the new MY MDX comes out). That has always been their strategy in the US with Honda/Acura, something to differentiate them. TL vs. Accord, RSX vs. Civic, there is always some type of differentiation. This is the first time they are (at least in the US) doing something like this with two Honda badged products. Think of it like they put the Accord engine in the Civic and offered them both at the same time. That is something I would expect from Ford or GM, not Honda.

    I don't think I'll win this argument but it's how I feel and I really think Honda blew it.
  • moonkatmoonkat Member Posts: 265
    ticktock4321:
    No worries. Your CRV has one of the highest resale values of any vehicle on the market. You can up and sell it at a good price and buy an Element if you want. People who want a CRV don't necessarily want an Element. Or, you can enjoy the CRV knowing it's a tried and true vehicle with a huge following.

    They are only planning to make 50,000 Elements in 03, so there will little impact on CRV sales and value. Leave it to Honda to be their own best competition.

    The 03 Pilot debuts in June with similar motor and same drivetrain (5spd auto) to 02 MDX. There is no 3.8L option on an 02 MDX. That is the rumored 03 MDX upgrade. This is also done with the RSX type S (2.0L, 200hp), and the European Civic type R, which is rumored to be coming to the US next year.

    You are describing Honda of a decade ago when there were no 6 bangers in the Honda line up. I welcome the application of Acura technology to Honda (it's all Honda), and likewise encourage their application of the 2.4L i-vtec motor in a variety of their products.

    Get over it.
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    And you seem to be missing it. I'm not questioning using technology across other vehicles. But again I will ask you, If you bought an Accord that cost you $20000 and two months later they offered the same engine and other mechanicals in a $15000 Civic, you wouldn't have a problem with that? If you say no you are a better person than most.

    And regarding the Pilot/MDX, that's Honda/Acura, not Honda/Honda.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    TickTock - I gotta suspect paranioa when people starting posting that Honda is laughing at them. =)

    As for the situation, I was surprised that Honda used exactly the same engine in the Element. I was expecting the 2.0 from the Stream (156hp and 141lb-ft). However, there is still a great deal more that separates the CR-V from the Element.

    First of all, the Element in those pictures is probably a $21K version of the vehicle. That isn't a whole lot cheaper than a CR-V.

    Second, the Element probably lacks a lot of ammenities that the CR-V has. It'll probably be loud and handle like a truck. It may lack the larger disk brakes, the 6 disk changer, the sunroof, the interior will likely be durable, but made from hard plastics. Basically, everything could be of cheaper quality and function.

    As for manufacturers messing with former customers, imagine how the folks with Maximas feel about the new Altima... Honda is simply out to meet the needs of a smaller market. They aren't laughing at anybody.
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    Anyone else remember a similar situation with Honda? I'm not talking about Nissan or anyone else. I'm not talking Honda/Acura.

    I understand they are different vehicles and will have different content. Not my point. See my Accord/Civic example.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota also does this with the Highlander and RX300. Of course content levels are different. Do you shop by the pound or by the features, though?

    Maybe they're considering a V6 for the CR-V to differentiate them? I doubt it, though. The styling does that by itself.

    I also like the Element's rear tail gate, and I guess the spare is hidden under the cargo area. Finally, I read it will have a rubber floor. Imagine being able to hose it out!

    Remember, this is meant to appeal to young folks. If you don't like it, you're too old. Kudos to Honda design that people are already complaining about it being TOO good.

    -juice
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe it was just cheaper to use the same drivetrain or they have more capacity to produce that engine under these circumstances?

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    TickTock - Honda has never had a large enough product line here in the states. You have to sell more than five or six cars before they start to look the same.

    In recent years, Honda has expanded enormously. What you're seeing is part of that process.

    As for your Civic/Accord example, this not the same deal. It's more like an Ody/Pilot situation. The CR-V and Pilot are SUVs. The Ody and Element are vans. Each pair uses the same drive trains.

    Juice - I think it was on another forum, but someone made an amusing remark about the Element: "What is Honda trying to completely crush the RAV4?" Obviously, someone sees the different facets of these two vehicles. IMHO, the CR-V stomped the RAV4 with additional utility. The RAV4 only has its funky styling to keep it afloat. Now Honda is attacking that as well.
  • scnamescname Member Posts: 296
    Honda is simply responding to consumer demand putting the 2.4 in newV and now the Element.

    We got ours,I appreciate that, now why some of us don't want Element owners engoy the 2.4 also ?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It is highly unlikely that a CRV buyer would cross-shop the Element, and vice-versa.

    These two vehicles are aimed at two completely different audiences. I don't think any CRV owner should feel threatened regarding plummeting resale values, due to the announcement of the new Element.

    Bob
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Honda is still questioning whether to put an even stronger engine under the Element's hood.

    As for cross-shopping the two - I personally would.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yeah, there will be some who will, myself included. However, I think the looks of the Element are so "radical," that more conservative customers will never (seriously) consider the Element over the CRV.

    That may change, however, as the Element becomes more "commonplace," and becomes more readily accepted. Even the PT Cruiser and VW Beetle now look almost ordinary; so it could happen. It will be interesting to watch...

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    is that Honda is going to stress the "truck" and/or "fun" aspect of the Element, much more so than they do with the CRV. I think Honda will stress more of a "sensible" image with the CRV. Have you noticed how new Honda CRV TV commercials poke fun at the "extreme" sports, and suggest a sense of "responsibility," as opposed to "craziness?"

    So, that type of very specific market "positioning" could easily separate customers into two different camps.

    Bob
  • sluglineslugline Member Posts: 391
    I like it a lot. After getting the feeling that the '02 CR-V had shifted a little too far to the grown-up and civilized end of the spectrum, it's refreshing to see this vehicle coming. Both it and the CR-V should find appeal to their respective audiences. (Varmit: I think you are alluding to my CR-VIX comments about Honda pummeling the RAV4 back to the drawing board. )

    ticktock4321: I've read your last five posts three times, and I still have no idea how "betrayal" describes your scenario. Our "pretty good coinage" just buys ordinary cars. Only "copious coinage" spent on an exotic can reasonably impart any kind of exclusive bragging rights.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    It's like the guy on the Sedans board who wanted to sue Toyota because the new Corolla is a vast improvement over the old Corolla that he has.
  • theracoontheracoon Member Posts: 666
    So maybe they'll update the CR-V commercials to have an Element parked at the top of the waterfall when the guy in the kayak goes over the falls??

    In that case, they should shoot an Element commercial looking down at the boring CR-V owners who never get out of their comfy CR-V.

    :D
  • civicwcivicw Member Posts: 135
    Just received the May issue today, which includes test reports on the CR-V and others. "Too much road noise is our main gripe" about the CR-V, says the report. But the CR-V was the top scoring SUV in the group which also included the VUE, Freelander, Suzuki SL-7, and Liberty(came last).

    The road noise part of it confirms my test drive impression. It almost seems that a high level of road noise is becoming a feature of all Hondas for some reason, and I expect the new Element to come with a generous helping. When will Honda give its owners(including me) some Toyota refinement?
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    I live an hour and fifteen minutes south of Ottawa and I want to install leather seats in my 2002 crv! I am from America, so my dollar is strong in your country.

    So, I was wondering how much it generally cost in Canadian dollars to have leather seats installled? Can you recommend any places that can do it.... Ottawa area, Kingston area or even Cornwall area. Montreal?

    Thanks for your help!
  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    People may initally look at it out of curiosity. After awhile they'd look and laugh. Even if it had the MDX engine, no one should feel cheated by Honda. The Element is just another showcase project by Honda along the lines of the S2000, Insight, NSX. They just have to come out with something different just to proof that they could/would.
  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    $1500 - 1,800 CAD seems to be commonly mentioned. However, I've never done it and I'm from out West.

    How about moving to Canada & commute to work so you can buy the Canadian-exclusive EX-Leather? :))
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Thanks Slugline. I didn't have time to check the post and give proper credit.


    Bob - You might be interested in how the Australians are selling their CR-Vs. With a test drive down an off-road track.


    Civicw - I hear you. Though, I don't see this as anything new. From what I understand Honda cars have never been the most quiet. CR may still think there is considerable noise, but it's still an improvement over the 1st gen.


    As for Toyota refinement... I'll buy Toyotas when they start providing performance. You can't get everything all in one car.

  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    And/or when they start offering decent styling. For the most part, Toyota products tend to be either ultra conservative, or funky/gawky.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Recent Toyota styling has been hit or miss with me. Don't like the Solara, new Camry, new ES300, or the Avalon. However, I do like the RAV4, Matrix, new Corolla, IS300, and RX300.
  • tomsrtomsr Member Posts: 325
    I thought I saw somewhere that the warranty is longer in the Canadian version CRV.May be my
    mistake because of the miles to kilometer
    conversion.If it is longer in Canada,why? Also
    the manual says regular Normal Service oil change
    should be at 10000 miles.That seems like an awful long time.Seems like if it burns a little oil it
    could run out of oil by then.I'll do mine at 5000
    miles which will be once a year.The coolant is a 120K life. Is this 4 banger that good or does Honda want to make sure you buy another in 5 years.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    my hat is off to the Aussies! That's a great idea.

    Bob
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    I still stand by my Accord and Civic analogy. IMO your Pilot/Ody analogy is wrong. Do they share the same AWD system? No. Someone who buys a Pilot gets something different than the Ody. Something to justify the extra cost beside the amenities. Someone who buys an Element gets the exact same engine and AWD system as someone who bought a CR-V.

    Varmint, let's look at your TL. I know you had many things to say to justify your choice versus the Accord V6. Now imagine that the Accord had the same engine and transmission as your TL, but cost thousands less (and was badged as Acura to eliminate that issue). You would be ok with that? Would the amenities be enough to make the thousands of extra dollars you paid acceptable? Would knowing that a lower priced vehicle has the same mechanicals as yours be accpetable? You mentioned Nissan and the Altima/Maxima. They are putting a different engine in the Maxima, no? (or at least a different version of the Altima's V6). What about Toyota? Do they do something like this?

    It's not about cross-shopping, it's not about different target markets, it's not about amenities, it's not about old Corolla versus new Corolla. I'm not talking about adapting technology from one engine to another. It's about the fact that Honda will put the exact same engine and AWD system from a higher priced vehicle into a lower priced vehicle. Never been done before. If you think that is acceptable, nothing I can do about that. IMO it is wrong. It is GM like.

    slugline, if you can't figure out why I feel Honda let me and every other CR-V owner down after this explanation not sure what else I can say. You don't have to agree with me, but hopefully you understand where I am coming from.

    I think it's easy for people to say no big deal because most of you didn't go out and spend $23000 only to see a $16000 vehicle come along with the same mechanicals. I wanted some exclusivity out of my purchase just like someone who buys an Accord expects it to have better mechanicals than the less expensive Civic. I realize Honda is growing and there will inevitably be overlap with components and prices. Since the Element is similar in pricing to the Civic, why didn't they use that engine?
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    I bought my 2002 crv for the overall package, not just for the engine. So I don't care if the elemnt gets the same engine and costs less.

    Obviously you chose the Crv because of its engine.... right??? If not then I think you should be happy with the overall package the CRV offers. If not, sell it and buy the element.

    I can assure you the 16k Element will be stripped down compared to the 22k crv!
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    I give up. You are all right, Honda is great, they can do no wrong. They should start putting V6's in the Civic, they should put the 5 speed auto tranny in the Civic and Accord (that one may happen) they should give the CR-V/Element (yep I view them as one vehicle) the AWD system from the Pilot/MDX, etc. but of course keep the prices where they are. So someone who spends >$30K on a Pilot will be thrilled that the $16K element has the same mechanicals, yea right. One big happy engine/trans/AWD system family.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << I'm not talking about adapting technology from one engine to another. It's about the fact that Honda will put the exact same engine and AWD system from a higher priced vehicle into a lower priced vehicle. Never been done before. If you think that is acceptable, nothing I can do about that. IMO it is wrong. >>

    Subaru does that. The Impreza, Legacy, Outback (except the H-6) and Forester all share the same engine, AWD, etc. I never hear a bit of complaining from my Subie friends. I also own two Subies, and it doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, I think it's smart marketing on Subaru's part.

    Let me ask you this: The Lexus $50+K LX470 shares the same engine as the $28K Toyota Tundra. Do you have a problem with that too?

    Bob
  • crviccrvic Member Posts: 37
    I know how you fee--sorta. When I went to the Chicago auto show in February and saw the Pilot, I was a bit disappointed that I had just gotten the CR-V...A few thousand dollars more (what's $75 more per month on your car payment anyway?)would have gotten me a bigger (perhaps better?) car...I knew nothing about the Pilot until I saw it, I would have probably kept my '98 CR-V and traded it in for the Pilot this summer.

    I felt somewhat 'betrayed' by Honda because I was not aware of the information...my sales guy could've told me: by the way, the Pilot is coming out. It's not like I had a junker to get rid of...
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Am I missing something here? Do you honestly feel that Honda (or any brand) is morally obligated to tell you what their future products are going to be?

    Bob
  • fasteddie9fasteddie9 Member Posts: 63
    1. When does the CR-V get noisy? Seriously, I have not noticed it yet. Do I have to drive fast, be on bad pavement etc to find out? I think it is very quiet.
    2. I am glad I didn't get the Pilot. Have you seen the interior? The CR-V is much nicer, cost less and better thought out. Cooler gauges, and amenities. The new CR-V has alot going for it. The Pilot is boring. Sure it's got a v6, holds 8, but so what. Do you want to be the neighborhood bus service? The Pilot needs some pizazz.
    3. I haven't pushed the CR-V yet, but from what I feel so far, the 2.4 ltr I-VTEC DOHC motor, is the biggest and best 4 banger Honda has ever built, and is more that enough (for me). I have had a 89 Prelude Si, 89 Accord EX, 00 Civic EX (still own) and now a 2002 CR-V EX. My CR-V is the best overall vehicle of the ones listed above. (But I really think the Prelude was my favorite-only time will tell if the CR-V will win out there).
    4. As far as the Element is concerned, the are marketing that vehicle to the next generation of car buyers. I don't think many 30 somethings will run out and but a "box" and show that off in their driveway. Personally I was hoping it would stay a "concept". just my .02.
  • crviccrvic Member Posts: 37
    I know that I, as a consumer, should search for information. Honda is not obligated to tell me anything. Actually, as a for-profit entity they should try to get the most money out of me to make their bottom line look better.
    What I felt was an 'emotional'reaction, perhaps feeling betrayed was irrational, however that's what I felt at that particular moment. I'm only human you know Bob
  • kentwongkentwong Member Posts: 36
    The Element's interior(control panel)looks much more modern than the CR-V. Check them out from the hondanews.com.
  • ticktock4321ticktock4321 Member Posts: 41
    Regarding your Lexus example. One is a pick up the other is an SUV (I think, Lexus isn't even on my radar). While the Element is not a traditional SUV like the CR-V it is similar enough as opposed to a pick up vs. an SUV, IMO. So I can't really answer but I will say if I bought the LX470 and two months later they came out with a lower priced SUV type vehicle with the same engine, transmission and AWD system you bet I'd be unhappy.

    Regarding your Subaru example. Was the Legacy out and then they put the same engine in the new Impreza? If so, again I would have a problem with that. Another factor, is the size difference between a Legacy and Impreza the same as the difference between a CR-V and Element? I know the Impreza is quite a bit smaller than the Legacy. If something is out already, hopefully my research will point those things out. But if they launch it after, like the Element, it is a different situation.

    The Element is a lower priced, smaller vehicle. Why doesn't it get a smaller engine? Again I say if next week Honda decided to put the Accord engine in the Civic, you don't think Accord owners would have a problem?

    And no I don't expect an automaker to tell me what future products it has coming (although with the Internet it's getting easier to know). What I expect is when they intoduce a smaller, less expensive vehicle it should have something besides lack of amenities to differentiate it. Something like a different powerplant, something like no AWD or a less sophisticated system, just like the CR-Vs AWD system is different from the Pilot. If the Pilot was out first and then they put its engine and AWD system in the CR-V and charged $7000 less, no one would have a problem? Not the CR-V buyer for sure, but I think the Pilot owner wouldn't like it.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    "Betrayed" is just a poor choice of words?

    What I think I'm hearing, is that you don't feel that Honda should spread this drivetrain around to other models, and that it should be reserved solely for the CRV. That's what mystifies me...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think the $16k Elements will have AWD, or even ABS for that matter. So they are not getting the same powertrain you paid $23k for. Just the engine.

    I'm sure there will be more differentiation, too. It'll have a rubber floor with no carpeting, which will turn some people off. It seats 4 instead of 5.

    Bob made a good point, and guess what? I bought a Forester precisely because it got a the bigger engine from the Legacy in a lighter and less expensive package. Did the Forester hurt Outback sales? Surprise, Outback sales went up! Resale values are actually stronger.

    The same could happen with the CR-V. Wild concepts like that bring in showroom traffic. Buyers arrive and see 4 seats and no carpets, and drive off in a CR-V. I'm sure that'll happen a lot.

    Please understand something: I fully respect your opinion, and understand your frustration. If the Element is the bargain you seem to think, then you'll appreciate Honda's strong resale value, and have a perfect excuse to trade-in for a new Element. Or get both! :-)

    Toyota is probably nervous. They already are worried about having older buyers than Honda (8 years older Corolla vs. Civic, for instance). Now they're being surrounded by Honda's SUVs. The RAV4 was a hit until the CR-V arrived. Now the Element just might be the check mate, forcing a mid-cycle update.

    Top it off, the Odyssey has been eating the Sienna's lunch. At least they have a new one on the way.

    And Highlander is really popular, but who thinks the Pilot won't put a huge dent in Highlander sales?

    Honda ought to offer a wagon to hit the Matrix where it hurts.

    -juice
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