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Yes the Legacy had the 2.5L engine first, then it became standard in the Forester, and then in the Impreza. I, being an owner, don't have a problem with that. I also spend most of my time over in the Subaru boards. To this date, I have never heard that complaint from any Subaru Legacy owner, that "lesser" Subarus also use the same engine and AWD. It's a non-issue.
Sharing engines and drivetrains is as old as the automobile itself. Look at Detroit. Even the very expensive Mercedes S-320 uses the same engine as the lowliest Mercedes C-320.
Bob
This is a first for Honda, that I know of. And if you're the buyer of the lower priced vehicle it is great at IMO the expense of the buyer of the higher priced vehicle.
Again, regarding Lexus/Toyota and Acura/Honda, IMO there is enough differences in favor of the Luxury brands to justify the $ difference. And besides, the MDX will eventually have a different engine than the Pilot, it's a fact.
You hit it right on the head when you said "look at Detroit". This is something I expect from the Domestics. I just have to accept that Honda is no better than they are.
<< I would have no problem if Honda uses the power plant on a similarly priced vehicle. But on one that cost $7000 less? >>
Bob
You say there is enough difference from a Toyota to a Lexus, but you haven't even seen the Element yet, so how can you say it's not the same way? You might think it's worth paying $2 grand for full carpeting, an extra seat, and rear doors that open independently from the fronts.
Yes, the MDX will get a bigger engine, but the Highlander coexists with the RX300 and has the exact same engine. It even has a 4" longer wheelbase, and is roomier, and even has a VSC option! Heck, why would anyone buy the Lexus? Yet people do.
-juice
I am planning to purchase a cr-v ex sometime in the next 2 months, and I am wondering if anyone can point me to some dealers actually willing to deal. I live in the Oklahoma City area, but am willing to drive to Houston, Dallas, Amarillo, Lubbock, or Midland, TX to find the best price. I've read posts that I can't find now about autoinvoice.com coming out of the Tulsa area, so that is a definate possibility. I vaguely recall something about a Houston dealer, but don't remember if it was good or bad.
Can anyone help me out?
Thanks,
Heather
I realize the pricing isn't firm and the highest priced Element will be closer to the lowest CR-V than $7000 but they are still both Hondas. By putting the same engine/trans/AWD system in another Honda branded product, IMO they have diluted the $ differences. If the CR-V was an Acura, that would make it more palatable. Or if the Element was some new brand like Toyota is doing with Scion, again more acceptable. But these are both Hondas.
And looking at the RX300/Highlander and the MDX/Pilot, regardless of their similarities if you look around you will see lots of people saying why should I pay >$35K for the MDX when I can get the Pilot for less $. Hundreds of posts about that already in the Pilot topic. And people say the same thing about the Highlander. This supports my argument 100%.
Demand is so strong for the MDX it's almost sick. I'm sure Pilot will be a huge success, but I doubt MDXs are going to sit around on Acura lots, no way.
Lots of people will ask why pay more, and those people will buy Elements. I don't dispute that. But I still think the CR-V will sell well, because it has broader appeal.
-juice
Looks like the weathertech deflector doesn't cover as much as the collegehills honda deflector available. I stops about 4 inches shy on each side of the hood. There is about 1.5 inches between the hood and deflector, so cleaning looks to be easy. Also has a lip on the trailing edge of the deflector, looks effective in directing wind, bugs and debris over the windshield. Took 10 mins to install. Hope this helps some decide on which deflector to get. cost $55+$10 shipping.
You are right. Honda blind-sided you with a decontented CRV to be marketed as the Element. Same motor, and drivetrain options but in a relatively stripped down version using new inexpensive body panels to differentiate the model.
If you had known about it, you would have waited for the Element instead. You trusted Honda's (Honda/Acura)conservative, predictable model placement and differentiation to ensure that your Honda purchase would retain its niche (pricing, value, prestige) in the Honda line-up.
What happened to you has not happened to any other Honda owner. Honda needed to attract generation Y buyers and created a cheap spinoff of an existing vehicle. Kind of like when the Acura division was created to attract up-market customers (and profit), but this time without creating a new division, unlike Toyota and their new Scion line. But you didn't see this coming, and you're a gen Y guy so you really missed this boat.
You pegged Honda's behavior exactly, except for one characteristic. They are exceptionally secretive. You see their new vehicles/products on the street before you read about them. You're info network is dramatically improved with web forums, but still don't even know what the 03 Accord is going to look like and that's due in 6 months.
So you made your choice on then current info, and your prediction of Honda predictable behavior. Well, your assumptions were flawed and you have to live with them. Who knew Honda was going after the youth market and was determined to make a successful effort.
Well, actually there has been quite a bit of info on this for more than a year. See forum "Honda Element ("Model X" - miniSUV/Hatchback)":
moonkat "Honda Element ("Model X" - miniSUV/Hatchback)" Jan 26, 2002 5:55pm
So, you are right. Honda has not done this before. But, it is your responsibility. You didn't read the signs correctly.
The Pilot/Ody example: You are focusing on only the engine and AWD. That is where I think you are missing the point. A car is much more than just an engine and drive train. With the Pilot/Ody example, we have two Hondas that share an engine, similar seating configuration, similar demographics (family haulers), similar content (NAV or RES, leather, audio, and climate systems), and even the same colors.
If the Accord offered the 225 hp engine, I would still buy the TL. The TL offers a quiet ride, better seats, a five speed tranny, better audio, better styling, etc... Well worth the extra 3-4K I spent.
I also agree with many of the comments made before me. The Element is going to cost $21K. That is not significantly cheaper than the CR-V. We know very little about what the $16K is going to be. It may very well have a 2.0 engine and no AWD. In fact, I'm almost certain it won't have AWD.
that we can tow it (auto.) behind our motorhome 4 down, but still have plenty of carrying capacity for passengers/stuff if we need it.
We have compared possible tow cars for a year: Toyota, Ford, Subaru, Suzuki, Chevy, Land Rover and the '02 CRV is head and shoulders above any of them in value, looks, carrying capacity, economy, features AND reliability.
(We added running boards to it also and that really gives it a new attitude!) For us this redesigned mini ute suited our needs to a "T."
Absolutely no regrets here, we love it.
tidester
Host
SUVs
If the base Element costs (which it wont be that cheap) 16,000 then compare that to the base model of the crv which costs 18,800. The 2800 difference gives you a smoother ride, ac, cd, power locks and windows. Who knows if that stuff will come std with the element. My guess is not, look at the civic models.
If you wanna compare the 23k crv, then compare it to the element that costs the most, probably around 21k.
Your comparison is flawed because of the way you are looking at it. You can't compare a top of the line crv to a bottom of the line element. If you do that then I am suprised I am not hearing...
How come I paid 23k for a crv, when I could have gotten the crv for 18.8k? I paid over $4000 more for my crv with the same drive train.
I hope my language doesn't come across harshly..... I am merely participating in the debate.
I think the problem that many are missing is that these are both Honda branded vehicles.
So if the Accord had the same engine and tranny as your TL and both were badged Honda, you wouldn't have a problem paying more for heated seats (and a few other things as well)? People went back and forth on the Accord V6 vs. the TL thread, and what I got out of it was that people were willing to pay more for the TL because it was an Acura and it had among other things, a bigger engine and a better transmission. Eliminate those differences and would people still think the TL is worth the extra dollars? I really don''t think so.
And no dave your language wasn't harsh. Really I think this whole discussion has been pretty good, no bad blood I hope.
The toughest choice will be choosing between the Element and CRV, when the time comes, and having to pay the same price for either one comparably equipped (AWD models). CRV can be gotten discounted, but the Element will likely command no less than MSRP due to its limited (50k) production.
Common sense will tell you (me) that the CRV would be a better value at the same price, but good judgement does not always prevail.
In fact, I'm going to extend your differentiation scenario a bit: Remember, the Element is going into production later this year, which means it's coming in as a 2003 model with the puported 160-hp engine. Let's say that Honda decides to drop a 200-hp V6 into the CR-V EX for model year 2003. You want differentiation between models sold at the same time . . . that would make it happen to be sure. But I don't think it would make you feel any better, would it?
When we make a purchase as consumers, we are only getting the best deal we find available at that time. There will always be something better/cheaper around the corner. It's the best way to lure us back into the dealerships.
It is essentially the same engine...basically goes something like this...
The 160: uses the intelligent part on one end of the engine stroke.
The 200: uses the intelligent part on both ends of the engine stroke.
Honda will probably introduce the 200HP engine next year after the element has been out for a while....
Now, ticktocks point becomes clearer....
Scroll down a little over halfway for the reference to the two different but same engines!
Look at above post by me to see what I am talking about.
And I explained my reasoning as to why I have no issue with the CR-V having a $4000 spread. It was known, they didn't bring out the less expensive version later. Happens all the time. Accord has an approximately $5000 spread with the I-4.
And daveghh hit on my exact point as to why I don't think the Element will use two different engines (different hp maybe but the same displacement). As to the AWD, Honda is secretive but I'm thinking something would be known if the lower model won't be AWD.
When they start naming a syndrome after you, it's probably time to back off. Thanks for listening everyone.
Ticktock: be disgruntled all you want, it's your right, never mind us. "Dis" Honda and "grunt" all you want, you'll probably feel better. :-)
To answer your question: if the TL didn't have a 5 speed tranny, and the more powerful engine, the extra features, and the longer warranty that comes with being an Acura, well, then it would be an Accord V6 and be priced the same!
-juice
Here are some specs:
CRV vs RSX Type S
Displacement: 2.4 vs 2.0
Horsepower: 160@6000rpm vs 200@7400rpm
Torque: 162@3600rpm vs 142@6000rpm
The RSX version has been tuned as more of a racing engine whereas the CRV is more of a hauler.
I think Honda would be hard pressed to tune the 2.4 much higher and still offer high torque at low rpm AND have good fuel mileage.
-Rob
Someone mentioned the '99 and the mid generation changes. Again, IMO a different situation. The '99 didn't cost less than previous CR-Vs. It wasn't a new vehicle. They consistantly make changes to their vehicles mid generation. Maybe not always as significant as a 20 hp bump, but they change the styling slightly or whatever.
I am not disgruntled. I have a fine vehicle that hopefully will give me many years of trouble free service. I just wish they hadn't put the same mechanicals in a vehicle that cost thousands less. Doesn't seem that off the wall to me. Sums it up.
And to rburnard, I thought I was pretty clear. It's not that I am upset that I could have had an Element for less $ than a CR-V, I'm pretty sure I would never touch one. It's the fact that a lower priced vehicle will (potentially) have the same mechanicals. It will be a first for Honda within the Honda line in the US that I know of (that should be a good enough disclaimer).
-Rob
Gaveghh - The CR-V's 2.4L engine is based on the same block as the RSX, but it has been bored out and stroked. Making it generate more power would probably require making it spin faster. That's how they do it with the RSX-s engine which is a 2.0L block. With cylinders as big as the CR-V's, they would have difficulty moving that mass at high speeds. The bigger engine would shake a whole more than the smaller one. So there are limits.
That said, I suspect they could get another 20hp out of it without making it too rough. 180hp wouldn't be so bad in an SE trim level.
TickTock - I'm just guessing about the possibility of a smaller engine in the el-cheapo version of the Element. Don't quote me on it. With the AWD, yes, I am certain the lowest model will not have it. The cheapest CR-V doesn't have AWD and most other Hondas (across the ponds) follow the same pattern.
Yes, and that motor will be in the 03 Accord. Well, maybe not quite 180hp, but more than 160.
A more relevant example: would I pay $2k more for a 5-seater, over a 4-seater? Yes, because we require 5 seats. If it weren't for that I'd take a close look at the Element.
-juice
Now, I was just thinking that maybe the two vehicles won't have such a big spread in real-world price. Wasn't initial Element production slated for 50,000 units or so? That's as many CR-Vs as Honda sells in just four to six months. If this funky/trendy youth-oriented SUV thing actually catches on, there might even be some mild price-gouging by dealers for awhile. (It's happened before -- remember the XTerra at its launch? What were people thinking? ) Meanwhile, CR-V production is expected to increase with the new English plant coming online. Maybe then we see CR-V pricing back to near-invoice levels as before the new model introduction?
If you believe in free enterprise and are convinced that the two vehicles will actually offer similar values to buyers, then you can bet that they will end up with similar pricing in real life. We'll see what will have transpired by this time next year. . . .
The tailgate functions as a swinger for two reasons. The spare tire cannot be mounted on the back if the gate swings up. And the rear door cannot be used for storage if the gate swings up.
Personally, I find the design very handy. But I can understand why folks who park on the street would dislike it.
Can you please create a new board for the element. I'm tired of having to filter through these pages to find relevant info on the crv. i'm especially tired of listening to tick tock whine and complain. enough is enough. please give him another place to gripe.
thank you very much.... i hope this helps my headache that he created.
rockycow@aol.com
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Coupe I had. It is quieter accelerating and the
engine cannot be heard at idle unless you
roll down a window.It is easy to exceed the speed
limit if you aren't paying attention.If I could change one thing I would lower it.I am short
and getting in I have to grab the roof rail and lift myself into the seat.My wife's TL Acura sedan
is the perfect height for me.
Also, thanks to all for the info on the hood deflector. It looks like the one from college hills honda covers a bit more of the hood than the weathertech one.
is anyone out there with this under coating dry? if you go by any
sand or dirt can I scrub it? or will it come off?it would be nice to find out what is the deal with this. i will be calling north American honda and I will post any results until then go and see if yours still very soft and way too tacky to the point that you will end up with black finger tip.
greeting from sunny Miami
Anyway, live in the snowbelt with lots of salt and sand. Rustproofing from dealer, undercoating/waxoyl/various other amenities, costs $600. Research on how valuable this is seems confliting. Suggestions/recommendations?
Also, thinking of adding side cladding. Any concerns that this may cause rust problem by trapping water? Other experiences? My dealer said the service dept. doesn't like this add-on..difficult to attach.
Thanks!