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But I take it even the 240s were troublesome for your shop too?
They haven't had any engine problems with the car, but the transmission did fail, around 35,000 miles and had to be replaced. But #2 has been solid.
The only other car I can think off off the top of my head that made it that far was my old '68 Dart. I retired it at 338,000 miles, when the fuel pump went out and I didn't have the money or time to mess with it, and then just let it sit too long. However, I bought that car with around 252,000 miles on it, in 1992. The previous owner, who was the second owner, said he had the engine rebuilt at 241,000, and soon after put a newer, but still used, tranny and rear in it. But, who knows what other work that car might have had done on it in the decades before it came under my ownership?
I saw many, MANY Hondas in the mid 200.000 mile range that were running just fine.
Okay, tell him to send me a printout of the dealer records, and I'll surrender. :P
Yeah, sounds like it with that kind of mileage, doesn't it? But no, they just have a long commute. They moved to southern Md in 1989, which really stretched out their commute. They ride in together, with my stepdad dropping my Mom off, and then continuing on into work. Total commute is about 130 miles per day I think. They also go down to Florida fairly regularly, but in more recent years they've been taking something other than the Altima.
They bought a 2008 Altima back around Feb of 2008, and I think they might have 20,000 miles on it. And a few months ago, they bought a Prius, but they keep the '99 Altima around for most of their commuting. They offered to give it to me, but with 330,000 miles on it, I think that thing's a rolling time bomb. Kinda like that 96 year old body-builder/fitness guy who recently passed away. Yeah, he looked great for that age, but at that age, you could be gone tomorrow.
" I can't die. I would lose all of my credability"
I have noticed MB has moved away from 4 wheel air suspension on the new E63, maybe for durability reasons.
Would people predict that future car collectors won't be collecting cars after this era because of the extraordinary cost of maintaining the electrical components of them?
If you're asking do I think people will be saving most cars made today, I would say definitely NOT. They are too similar, generic and mass produced.
Now, I doubt a current Toyota Camry will ever be collectible, but some of the rare high end performance cars certainly could be.
Only time will tell, of course, but I tend to agree with Shifty on this.
Most if not all of us seem to agree that no recent or current Camry or Accord will ever have the collector status of, say, a '55-'57 Chevy, or anywhere close to it. Which rare high end performance cars are you thinking of? they're the most complex cars on the market, and their components are produced in small quantities, so where will you get replacements for even a sky high price in 2036 and beyond? As for certain luxury car models - Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. - well maybe, maybe, but I don't know which models would achieve affordable collector status. Help, anyone?
Can anyone think of a modern day counterpart to a mid-late '60s Mustang, in terms of future collectable desirability? I sure can't.
I know they'll never have the appeal of the hot '55-57 styles, like the hardtops, convertibles, top V-8's, Nomad, etc. But I wonder if something like an Accord or Camry would even reach the status of something like a low-demand model? Say, a 4-door 150 stripper with the straight-6?
I have a feeling that they probably won't even achieve that. Those low-line Chevies still probably benefit a bit because there are people who want a '55-57 Chevy, but can't afford a glamorous hardtop, convertible, fuelie, or whatever. But they want one so bad they'd settle for a basic 4-door.
I just can't see people clamoring for current-gen Accords in 30, 40, or 50 years. Every once in a blue moon, I've seen a 1980 or so Accord show up at the big Das Awk Fescht car show in Macungie PA, but they're hardly a common occurrence.
I don't see many modern Euros becoming big collectibles - maybe special interest cars at best. AMG/M/S-RS etc cars will be curiosities, but not particularly valuable, if they survive at all. Then they'd just be affordable to purchase, but like a 25 year old MB now, maybe not affordable to maintain unless you are really devoted. Perhaps something like an AMG Black Series will be coveted.
Here's what I've learned, or think I've learned:
1. If a car is loved passionately when new by real car enthusiasts (not the "I think my XX is cute" or "this is the best little car I ever owned"---not *that* kind of love)....than this type of car has a chance of being loved and preserved in later time. I think the owner of a '70 Hemi Cuda most definitely knew he had something special. The fact that *so many* of these rare cars still exist suggest that this is true.
2. Cars with huge amounts of usable, demonstrable horsepower will generally survive, although not perhaps with great value. By *huge* I mean awesome, not 278HP in a minivan or even 325HP in a big sedan. I mean tire-burning, street-ripping HP in a car that can use it.
3. Most ultra-expensive exotics will survive---but again, maybe not at anything near their original MSRP.
4. Cars with legendary names or history tend to survive more. Again, I don't mean "endurance history" as in "the longest running 4D sedan in production", or "this car is celebrating its 100th anniversay"---what did that do for Oldsmobile after all? So *most* Ferraris, Porsches, etc---but not all. A Cayenne? I don't think so. A dime-a-dozen base level Boxster? I don't think so.
5. Cars of superior and highly specialized utility may survive, oddly enough, like some race cars, some 4X4 Jeeps, some 4X4 dually 3/4 ton pickups. Why? Because they can still do the work they were built for--they can "pay for themselves" in other words, by either racing, hauling or hunting,etc.
I realize these "rules" aren't hard and fast, and can get mushy, but this is my interpretation of the future. Like most Swamis, I could be wrong :P
Where does this leave 97% of all modern cars? In the junkyard, that's where.
Ah, you nailed it; "devoted" is the key word. As I see it, there just don't seem to be as many people devoted, to the extent that those of us who regularly post on Edmunds are, to classic and collector cars as there once were. Sure, a lot of people are interested in cars today, but not devoted to the hobby.
With collectible cars it is always a crapshoot. In a few years we all may be driving street modified golf carts !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't know if there were ever a lot of people really into the hobby...it'll just be tougher for modern cars as their electronics decay, and the socio-economic devolution makes so less people can play with such toys.
A quick google of the Chicago Trib classified gave this result for May 20, 1979: "1970 HEMI CUDA $8500. 1970 HEMI ROADRUNNER $5500. Both mint Southern Cars." Someone with a collection of late 70s Hot Rod may find similar asking prices in the classified section.
In todays money $5k to $8k is nothing for a Hemi musclecar, but in 1979 that was not just "old 1970 used car" money either! How much did a new 1979 Olds Cutlass sell for back then? About the same? I never understood why some people claim that the gas crunch 70s was some sort of dumping ground for musclecars. Personal experiences and anecdotes aside, there are enough surviving newspaper and magazine ads to refute the "dumping ground" theory.
What makes rule #1 ring so true is car fanatics knew that a 1970 Hemi Cuda was something special and that allure has never changed. Sure nobody predicted that musclecars would ever approach blue chip auction status such as classic $200k Duesenbergs in 1979, but real car guys loved them anyway.
Wasn't the musclecar era the very last gasp at the same kind of reckless freedom which also created Duesenbergs? Life was never the same after the early 70s, not the the cars, the people, or the future. What's the next big thing in store for BJ auctions after musclecars? The end of that wild and crazy auction era, I think!
Great question! I'm interested in others' responses because I can't think of the sequel. Not that there were no interesting affordable cars built after the muscle car era, but the muscle cars had the huge advantage of being relatively simple and low cost to repair and maintain.
I thought maybe that cars like the Mitsubishi EVO and Subaru STi would take over this roll, and we may yet see a minor collector market for these cars in another ten years. I mean, a well-sorted EVO or STi is a pretty ferocious performer. Problem is, they look like what they are---entry-level Japanese sedans.
The reason that "collectible" cars are not really in existence today is because who can be enthusiastic at the products spit out by the D3 from 1972 - 2011??
They stopped making super cars in the U.S.A. around 1970...period. They make real Sleepers now.
Once that changes 180 degrees ( we are at the bottom now), perhaps collecting will begin again. Until then, not much to collect! :sick:
Perhaps when the new guys realize they need to push the envelop and put 4 @ 160HP electric motors (battery recharged by a Honda 4-pot, of course) at each wheel in a nice Challenger or Mustang (Camaro just ain't there yet for that crave feeling IMHO), then we can get excited again. We want 100mpg and 600 HP.
Then, the economy will skyrocket as in the past golden age of cars.
Regards,
OW
This is the clue of why the D3 went broke. Who has passion for their ride these days? They lost it 40+ years ago.......
Regards,
OW
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Getting back more to the topic at hand, the reason old luxury cars are so cheap is because people understand how difficult it will be to fix them.
So complexity is now driving the price of olders cars down, not up as it might have say with 60s Ferraris.
Modern cars are so modern that we can no longer point to Detroit iron and say "well, I treasure only sophisticated cars".
I think there will be a few cars (SSR, new T-Bird, Prowler) that will appeal to people who like the styling, but want the modern conveniences that the originals didn't have. And since they weren't produced for that long, I think overtime they will become scarcer than most other models, making them relatively rare. After all, I don't think everyone interested in a collectible/classic car is looking for a racehorse; I think a lot of it has to do with the more interesting styling than most blah cars.
Or there were cars like the new MINI that seem to be cultivating a following, and had a lot of consumer interest when it debuted. The BMW Z3 seemed to be rather popular when it came out as well. Basically, I predict that cars whose body styles were a bit more unusual from the pack will be kept longer than the nondescript vehicles that all blend into one another.
And if the automotive world continues with blah styling, then I think that will help to keep the classic/collectible car world alive. Because my burgeoning interest in classic cars is because they don't look like the boring vehicles I see everywhere else, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one.
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I am beginning to think that it might be a worthwhile purchase to get a luxury car, say about 2 years old at about twenty five or thirty thousand dollars. I looked over your forum, hoping that I could find some recommendations. I didn"t see anything that qualified, however. I would be looking for reliability. In this regard I noticed your discussions on German cars and electrical problems. My preference would be a station wagon, but I would look at others, if there was a better deal. I wonder if anyone could make recommendations.
thanks Joe
thanaks Joe
At 2 or 3 years old, a nice used E or 5er wagon would be appealing to me - late in their model runs so a lot of kinks have been ironed out and they are genuinely nice cars, but you won't get it for 20K just yet.
If you like wagons, Acura TSX is interesting too - resale will be good so it won't be as cheap, but it will have less dramatic maintenance.
Second: young people are increasingly disinterested in cars-they are beginning to think that automobiles (and their emissions) are becoming a problem for the environment.
So, outside of big collectors, you won't see many old car hobbyists in 30-40 years.
Could probably find a Z-80 core that would easily fit into an Altera FPGA or something similar. What's the gate count on a Z-80, couple of thousand?
Not saying how cost effective this would be :shades: .
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The main exception to American luxury in the late '40s-late '50s that stands out in my mind were the Jaguar sedans and XK sportscars. The dimensions were trimmer, as were firmer suspensions. No vinyl tops. The interiors featured bucket seats covered in leather and beautiful wood dashes. Power was supplied by DOHC I-6s of moderate displacement instead of big block OHV V8s. Many Jags were equipped with 4-on-the-floor, with or without overdrive rather than column shifted automatics. Rollers and Bentleys were always factors in high end luxury, but limited due to cost of ownership. They always turned heads.
By the '60s Mercedes and and BMWs appeared in greater numbers, and by the '70s these Germans, and to a much lesser extent Audi, became the cool ones to own. Understated luxury rose in popularity as large, nouveau riche receded. Volvo, Saab and other Euro brands were near luxury outliers. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were a variation on the German business model, but with greater emphasis on value.
Cadillac and Buick, Lincoln and Chrysler are still trying to define themselves in the luxury segment.
What comes next?
It's easier to use a variation of something from the past than to create something totally new. That said, the changes could incorporate new metal textures and colors.
One thing that won't come back is bench front seating.
With the dumbed down economic devolution taking place, there will also not be as large a target market for showy yet relatively affordable luxury cars, so it might not be cost effective.
I wonder if the new Impala will have a bench.