Buying Luxury used cars

jrosasmc · January 2011

I happened to be at a local Volvo shop over the weekend and I got to talking with several Volvo owners/enthusiasts who were present. Just about every one of them said that the older ones, specifically the 240s, were (and are) more reliable and solid than the newer ones - they dismissed those made in the last ten years as having too much "electronic junk."

But I take it even the 240s were troublesome for your shop too?

andre1969 · January 2011

The only car I can really vouch for that's made it over 300,000 miles is my Mom and stepdad's '99 Altima. They bought it brand-new, and I think it has around 330,000 miles now. And it even still looks good, both inside and out. The only flaw I've noticed on the interior is the passenger side carpet has a worn spot, where it looks like somebody might be resting the edge of their shoe on it and rubbing it. Oddly, the '86 Monte Carlo I got from them had the same worn spot in the carpet. I'm going to have to ask my Mom which one of them is muffing up the carpet in their cars!

They haven't had any engine problems with the car, but the transmission did fail, around 35,000 miles and had to be replaced. But #2 has been solid.

The only other car I can think off off the top of my head that made it that far was my old '68 Dart. I retired it at 338,000 miles, when the fuel pump went out and I didn't have the money or time to mess with it, and then just let it sit too long. However, I bought that car with around 252,000 miles on it, in 1992. The previous owner, who was the second owner, said he had the engine rebuilt at 241,000, and soon after put a newer, but still used, tranny and rear in it. But, who knows what other work that car might have had done on it in the decades before it came under my ownership?

isellhondas · January 2011

Nope, not anecdotal since both of those examples I used were only serviced by us and we had all of the records since day one.

I saw many, MANY Hondas in the mid 200.000 mile range that were running just fine.

lemmer · January 2011

Are your parents travelling salespeople or something?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2011

GEEZ --You still have to wonder how someone could drive 40,000 miles a year consistently for 9 years in order to get that many miles up.

Okay, tell him to send me a printout of the dealer records, and I'll surrender. :P

andre1969 · January 2011

Are your parents travelling salespeople or something?

Yeah, sounds like it with that kind of mileage, doesn't it? But no, they just have a long commute. They moved to southern Md in 1989, which really stretched out their commute. They ride in together, with my stepdad dropping my Mom off, and then continuing on into work. Total commute is about 130 miles per day I think. They also go down to Florida fairly regularly, but in more recent years they've been taking something other than the Altima.

They bought a 2008 Altima back around Feb of 2008, and I think they might have 20,000 miles on it. And a few months ago, they bought a Prius, but they keep the '99 Altima around for most of their commuting. They offered to give it to me, but with 330,000 miles on it, I think that thing's a rolling time bomb. Kinda like that 96 year old body-builder/fitness guy who recently passed away. Yeah, he looked great for that age, but at that age, you could be gone tomorrow.

isellhondas · January 2011

Jack La Lanne told someone recently...

" I can't die. I would lose all of my credability"

hpmctorque · January 2011

I think any car with air suspension, regardless of country of origin, is a future money pit. The most cost effective solution, when the air suspension fails, is usually to convert it to a conventional suspension.

hpmctorque · January 2011

Do you think that Hondas are still this reliable, or nearly so?

hpmctorque · January 2011

The "were" refers to what (most recent) year?

isellhondas · January 2011

Yes, more than ever.

fintail · January 2011

I can't think of any older ones which are known to be without hassle.

I have noticed MB has moved away from 4 wheel air suspension on the new E63, maybe for durability reasons.

astphard · January 2011

So it looks like the luxury makes (BMW, MB, Porsche, etc) became too electronic/gadgety in the late 80s, while Japanese (and presumably American) makes followed along a few years later in the early 90s?

Would people predict that future car collectors won't be collecting cars after this era because of the extraordinary cost of maintaining the electrical components of them?

fintail · January 2011

I have my doubts that many will make it to 40-50 years old or so to begin with.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2011

it all depends on whether or not some enterprising capitalist will see an aftermarket opportunity that is viable.

If you're asking do I think people will be saving most cars made today, I would say definitely NOT. They are too similar, generic and mass produced.

jwilliams2 · January 2011

Hard to generalize. None of us who owned musclecars in the mid sixties ever thought they would be worth anything today. As a matter of fact, when gas prices jumped in the 70's, no one wanted them. And look at what they sell for today.

Now, I doubt a current Toyota Camry will ever be collectible, but some of the rare high end performance cars certainly could be.

hpmctorque · January 2011

"...some of the rare high end performance cars certainly could be."

Only time will tell, of course, but I tend to agree with Shifty on this.

Most if not all of us seem to agree that no recent or current Camry or Accord will ever have the collector status of, say, a '55-'57 Chevy, or anywhere close to it. Which rare high end performance cars are you thinking of? they're the most complex cars on the market, and their components are produced in small quantities, so where will you get replacements for even a sky high price in 2036 and beyond? As for certain luxury car models - Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. - well maybe, maybe, but I don't know which models would achieve affordable collector status. Help, anyone?

Can anyone think of a modern day counterpart to a mid-late '60s Mustang, in terms of future collectable desirability? I sure can't.

andre1969 · January 2011

Most if not all of us seem to agree that no recent or current Camry or Accord will ever have the collector status of, say, a '55-'57 Chevy, or anywhere close to it.

I know they'll never have the appeal of the hot '55-57 styles, like the hardtops, convertibles, top V-8's, Nomad, etc. But I wonder if something like an Accord or Camry would even reach the status of something like a low-demand model? Say, a 4-door 150 stripper with the straight-6?

I have a feeling that they probably won't even achieve that. Those low-line Chevies still probably benefit a bit because there are people who want a '55-57 Chevy, but can't afford a glamorous hardtop, convertible, fuelie, or whatever. But they want one so bad they'd settle for a basic 4-door.

I just can't see people clamoring for current-gen Accords in 30, 40, or 50 years. Every once in a blue moon, I've seen a 1980 or so Accord show up at the big Das Awk Fescht car show in Macungie PA, but they're hardly a common occurrence.

fintail · January 2011

There isn't really a complete counterpart for an old Mustang or a Tri-Chevy, especially in the Euro or luxury lineup. The closest to an old Mustang is a new Mustang - and just like the old one, there are so many of them made that values will always be reasonable.

I don't see many modern Euros becoming big collectibles - maybe special interest cars at best. AMG/M/S-RS etc cars will be curiosities, but not particularly valuable, if they survive at all. Then they'd just be affordable to purchase, but like a 25 year old MB now, maybe not affordable to maintain unless you are really devoted. Perhaps something like an AMG Black Series will be coveted.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2011

yes sure, hard to generalize, and no doubt some car or another will defy the odds---but in general, we CAN learn from past history of collectible cars.

Here's what I've learned, or think I've learned:

1. If a car is loved passionately when new by real car enthusiasts (not the "I think my XX is cute" or "this is the best little car I ever owned"---not *that* kind of love)....than this type of car has a chance of being loved and preserved in later time. I think the owner of a '70 Hemi Cuda most definitely knew he had something special. The fact that *so many* of these rare cars still exist suggest that this is true.

2. Cars with huge amounts of usable, demonstrable horsepower will generally survive, although not perhaps with great value. By *huge* I mean awesome, not 278HP in a minivan or even 325HP in a big sedan. I mean tire-burning, street-ripping HP in a car that can use it.

3. Most ultra-expensive exotics will survive---but again, maybe not at anything near their original MSRP.

4. Cars with legendary names or history tend to survive more. Again, I don't mean "endurance history" as in "the longest running 4D sedan in production", or "this car is celebrating its 100th anniversay"---what did that do for Oldsmobile after all? So *most* Ferraris, Porsches, etc---but not all. A Cayenne? I don't think so. A dime-a-dozen base level Boxster? I don't think so.

5. Cars of superior and highly specialized utility may survive, oddly enough, like some race cars, some 4X4 Jeeps, some 4X4 dually 3/4 ton pickups. Why? Because they can still do the work they were built for--they can "pay for themselves" in other words, by either racing, hauling or hunting,etc.

I realize these "rules" aren't hard and fast, and can get mushy, but this is my interpretation of the future. Like most Swamis, I could be wrong :P

Where does this leave 97% of all modern cars? In the junkyard, that's where.

hpmctorque · January 2011

"...unless you are really devoted."

Ah, you nailed it; "devoted" is the key word. As I see it, there just don't seem to be as many people devoted, to the extent that those of us who regularly post on Edmunds are, to classic and collector cars as there once were. Sure, a lot of people are interested in cars today, but not devoted to the hobby.

houdini1 · January 2011

Good post. I've got a 2002 v6 Toyota Tacoma 4-door, 4X4 that is pretty much cherry that I plan to hang onto.

With collectible cars it is always a crapshoot. In a few years we all may be driving street modified golf carts !!

fintail · January 2011

You have to be devoted to keep a lot of old Euros on the road, so it comes with the territory in a way - probably why a 30 year old MB or BMW etc isn't rare - enough people take care of them to keep some around.

I don't know if there were ever a lot of people really into the hobby...it'll just be tougher for modern cars as their electronics decay, and the socio-economic devolution makes so less people can play with such toys.

omarman · January 2011

Your lesson #1 really does work for musclecars in general and maybe even BJ auctions too. This has come up before and I suppose it may always evoke anecdotal stories. My own experience was that real musclecars were always prized--right through the gas crunch malaise and all. But for every example I can recall about high-priced well-kept musclecars in the 70s it usually draws an opposite recollection from another. But there are other supporting resources...

A quick google of the Chicago Trib classified gave this result for May 20, 1979: "1970 HEMI CUDA $8500. 1970 HEMI ROADRUNNER $5500. Both mint Southern Cars." Someone with a collection of late 70s Hot Rod may find similar asking prices in the classified section.

In todays money $5k to $8k is nothing for a Hemi musclecar, but in 1979 that was not just "old 1970 used car" money either! How much did a new 1979 Olds Cutlass sell for back then? About the same? I never understood why some people claim that the gas crunch 70s was some sort of dumping ground for musclecars. Personal experiences and anecdotes aside, there are enough surviving newspaper and magazine ads to refute the "dumping ground" theory.

What makes rule #1 ring so true is car fanatics knew that a 1970 Hemi Cuda was something special and that allure has never changed. Sure nobody predicted that musclecars would ever approach blue chip auction status such as classic $200k Duesenbergs in 1979, but real car guys loved them anyway.

Wasn't the musclecar era the very last gasp at the same kind of reckless freedom which also created Duesenbergs? Life was never the same after the early 70s, not the the cars, the people, or the future. What's the next big thing in store for BJ auctions after musclecars? The end of that wild and crazy auction era, I think!

hpmctorque · January 2011

"What's the next big thing in store for BJ auctions after muscle cars?"

Great question! I'm interested in others' responses because I can't think of the sequel. Not that there were no interesting affordable cars built after the muscle car era, but the muscle cars had the huge advantage of being relatively simple and low cost to repair and maintain.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2011

Well try to think of some modern car where people would try to tear the doors off a dealership in order to just look at the car. Can't think of any? Well then, there is no sequel, because "muscle cars" created enormous public response in their day. Also you have to remember that muscle cars were "everyman's car", not the plaything of the wealthy.

I thought maybe that cars like the Mitsubishi EVO and Subaru STi would take over this roll, and we may yet see a minor collector market for these cars in another ten years. I mean, a well-sorted EVO or STi is a pretty ferocious performer. Problem is, they look like what they are---entry-level Japanese sedans.

circlew · January 2011

Let's stay on your line of thought and expound a bit.

The reason that "collectible" cars are not really in existence today is because who can be enthusiastic at the products spit out by the D3 from 1972 - 2011??

They stopped making super cars in the U.S.A. around 1970...period. They make real Sleepers now.

Once that changes 180 degrees ( we are at the bottom now), perhaps collecting will begin again. Until then, not much to collect! :sick:

Perhaps when the new guys realize they need to push the envelop and put 4 @ 160HP electric motors (battery recharged by a Honda 4-pot, of course) at each wheel in a nice Challenger or Mustang (Camaro just ain't there yet for that crave feeling IMHO), then we can get excited again. We want 100mpg and 600 HP.

Then, the economy will skyrocket as in the past golden age of cars.

Regards,
OW

circlew · January 2011

About the only car remotely close to an enthusiast "everyman's car" today is the Corvette. Still too high priced for that distinction but compared to the offerings well north in price but not so north in power/performance per dollar, it's all we have left!

This is the clue of why the D3 went broke. Who has passion for their ride these days? They lost it 40+ years ago.......

Regards,
OW

Mr_Shiftright · January 2011

But if we look at the pricing history and collectibility of previous C4 and C5 Corvettes, that doesn't look very promising. Used Corvettes are a dime a dozen, and they've made gazillions of them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

Getting back more to the topic at hand, the reason old luxury cars are so cheap is because people understand how difficult it will be to fix them.

So complexity is now driving the price of olders cars down, not up as it might have say with 60s Ferraris.

Modern cars are so modern that we can no longer point to Detroit iron and say "well, I treasure only sophisticated cars".

astphard · January 2011

Yeah, that 600HP getting 100MPG would be snapped up in a jiffy (or heck, 300hp getting 50mpg).

I think there will be a few cars (SSR, new T-Bird, Prowler) that will appeal to people who like the styling, but want the modern conveniences that the originals didn't have. And since they weren't produced for that long, I think overtime they will become scarcer than most other models, making them relatively rare. After all, I don't think everyone interested in a collectible/classic car is looking for a racehorse; I think a lot of it has to do with the more interesting styling than most blah cars.

Or there were cars like the new MINI that seem to be cultivating a following, and had a lot of consumer interest when it debuted. The BMW Z3 seemed to be rather popular when it came out as well. Basically, I predict that cars whose body styles were a bit more unusual from the pack will be kept longer than the nondescript vehicles that all blend into one another.

And if the automotive world continues with blah styling, then I think that will help to keep the classic/collectible car world alive. Because my burgeoning interest in classic cars is because they don't look like the boring vehicles I see everywhere else, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one.

kamazas · February 2011

Classic cars for sale - this one covers all of the states
Classic for sale

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

too bad there are no listings.

stever · May 2011

Did you go looking for a used car and find that prices were so high that it made more sense to buy a new car instead? Or found that your trade-in was worth a lot more than you expected?

If so, a reporter wants to interview you. Please email pr@edmunds.com no later than 3pm Eastern on Thursday, May 5, 2011 and include your daytime contact information.

gouthro · June 2011

Hello,
I am beginning to think that it might be a worthwhile purchase to get a luxury car, say about 2 years old at about twenty five or thirty thousand dollars. I looked over your forum, hoping that I could find some recommendations. I didn"t see anything that qualified, however. I would be looking for reliability. In this regard I noticed your discussions on German cars and electrical problems. My preference would be a station wagon, but I would look at others, if there was a better deal. I wonder if anyone could make recommendations.
thanks Joe

berri · June 2011

Personally, I've always thought that luxury cars are generally best off either leased or purchased used.

fintail · June 2011

If you have a solid warranty, a used one is the way to go. Initial depreciation on most higher end makes is just insane.

gouthro · June 2011

one of the reasons i am looking at 2 years old is becauses of the depreciation and the warranty. I am wondering, though, which type would be a good bet. I would like a station wagon, although it is not necessary. For that reason I was looking at A volvo Xc 70 or a Passat. I dont know if they would qualify as luxury cars. But, from the discussions on this thread I would be alittle afraid of a bmw or a mercedes because of electrical problems. dont know if i am right on that.

thanaks Joe

texases · June 2011

I'd put Volvo, VW, Audi, BMW, and MB in the same boat, reliability-wise. If you're wanting something significantly more reliable a Lexus RX350 would work.

fintail · June 2011

For anything European, you need some kind of warranty, or a willingness to spend. Older Volvos VWs and Audis can be especially troublesome.

At 2 or 3 years old, a nice used E or 5er wagon would be appealing to me - late in their model runs so a lot of kinks have been ironed out and they are genuinely nice cars, but you won't get it for 20K just yet.

If you like wagons, Acura TSX is interesting too - resale will be good so it won't be as cheap, but it will have less dramatic maintenance.

martian · August 2011

I also believe that cars from 1985-on will be next to impossible to restore-the electronic modules are not repairable, and most of the components (even if you were able to take one apart) are simply not available. For example, the Alfa-Romeo 164 has 5 Z-80 microprocessor chips inside-where would you get these today?
Second: young people are increasingly disinterested in cars-they are beginning to think that automobiles (and their emissions) are becoming a problem for the environment.
So, outside of big collectors, you won't see many old car hobbyists in 30-40 years.

srs_49 · August 2011

For example, the Alfa-Romeo 164 has 5 Z-80 microprocessor chips inside-where would you get these today?

Could probably find a Z-80 core that would easily fit into an Altera FPGA or something similar. What's the gate count on a Z-80, couple of thousand?

Not saying how cost effective this would be :shades: .

Mr_Shiftright · August 2011

There's already an aftermarket in engine management systems, like for running a fuel-injected V8 crate engine in a '55 Chevy---but I don't know as they would design one for an old Benz or Lexus.

Kirstie_H · January 2012

Have you ever bought a used car, only to find out later that the vehicle had suffered flood damage? A TV news show is working on a story about the resale flood-damaged vehicles, and would like to help tell your story. If youve ever been a victim of this practice, please send your contact information and a brief description of your experience to pr@edmunds.com by no later than January 16th, 2012.

hpmctorque · February 2013

Detroit defined luxury in the first three decades after WWII. With few exceptions, mega size, big engine displacement, convenience features such as PS, PB, AC, power seats and windows first appeared on high end GMs, Chryslers and Lincolns. Vinyl tops and abundant chrome trim dressed up the exterior. Soft velour seats and rich carpeting did the same for the interior. Of course, a soft, floaty ride was generally prized over better control, and brakes were marginal. The '52-'54 Lincolns firmed up the suspension some, in an effort to provide better road holding. Chrysler/Imperial took the balance of ride and stability a step further with the introduction of the torsion suspension in '57. For example, these cars leaned a lot less than the competition on curves, and the steering was quicker, though very light. It wasn't long, though, before Chrysler softened the ride. Most Americans still valued soft, quiet isolation.

The main exception to American luxury in the late '40s-late '50s that stands out in my mind were the Jaguar sedans and XK sportscars. The dimensions were trimmer, as were firmer suspensions. No vinyl tops. The interiors featured bucket seats covered in leather and beautiful wood dashes. Power was supplied by DOHC I-6s of moderate displacement instead of big block OHV V8s. Many Jags were equipped with 4-on-the-floor, with or without overdrive rather than column shifted automatics. Rollers and Bentleys were always factors in high end luxury, but limited due to cost of ownership. They always turned heads.

By the '60s Mercedes and and BMWs appeared in greater numbers, and by the '70s these Germans, and to a much lesser extent Audi, became the cool ones to own. Understated luxury rose in popularity as large, nouveau riche receded. Volvo, Saab and other Euro brands were near luxury outliers. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were a variation on the German business model, but with greater emphasis on value.

Cadillac and Buick, Lincoln and Chrysler are still trying to define themselves in the luxury segment.

What comes next?

hpmctorque · February 2013

I forgot Packard. Packard was a factor in the near-luxury and luxury market from '46 through the early '50s. It deserves to be remembered.

hpmctorque · February 2013

Fashions tend to come, go and, sometimes, return. Will vinyl roofs, velour seats and opera windows ever be considered upscale again? As odd as it may seem now, I wouldn't rule one or more of them out forever. At some point people may tire of leather and restraint, and will want a new look and feel. Today's luxury will look very yesterday.

fintail · February 2013

I don't know - maybe as some kind of hipster driven fad, and then it might be more on mainstream cars than luxury. I think today, high end design comes out of Europe first - and they won't want to replicate a 74 Lincoln anytime soon.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

It's going to be difficult to combine advanced electronics with someone's vision of Cleopatra's boudoir. I suspect cars will continue to look more and more like 4-wheel iPads.

hpmctorque · February 2013

The applications would be different, and wouldn't resemble a '74 Lincoln because the shapes of the cars would be very different from those of the '70s. For example, leather might be discreetly applied as external trim pieces. The velour colors and patterns would be subdued, or combined with leather. For example, leather on the outer portions of the seat and velour inserts. No gauche bordello reds. The German exterior and interior styling model has been updated over the years, but hasn't really changed. At some point I'm thinking it will, because nothing remains constant forever. The new styling language may come from anywhere, including German design studios. Also, the applications will look new and exciting to buyers who are way too young to remember the cars of the '60s and '70s.

It's easier to use a variation of something from the past than to create something totally new. That said, the changes could incorporate new metal textures and colors.

One thing that won't come back is bench front seating.

fintail · February 2013

I guess I would need to see examples. Exterior leather and velour seating sounds like something that would come from Mansory or maybe somewhere in Russia.

With the dumbed down economic devolution taking place, there will also not be as large a target market for showy yet relatively affordable luxury cars, so it might not be cost effective.

I wonder if the new Impala will have a bench.

Buying Luxury used cars

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