Go Green By Driving It 'Til The Wheels Fall Off

stever · March 2012

Sounds about right to me. I'm in the waning days of a 3 week road trip in my '99 minivan and have 172,000 miles on it. Back in the day, I'd be afraid to drive a ten year old car with 100k on it around the back pasture.

My nephew's Chevy Avalanche is newer than my van, and he's got 270k on it (yeah, I'm jealous). He drives it all over and has towed a lot with it. He's not buying another one until this one dies.

hpmctorque · March 2012

So, since you agree with Shifty, are you going to drive your minivan until it dies, or trade it shortly after you return from your road trip?

Mr_Shiftright · March 2012

makes sense to just drive it and when something big breaks, just walk away..presuming that the car/van is essentially worthless. And at 250K, most vehicles are essentially devoid of any significant market value anymore. So you blow the engine, you're out maybe..what...$1500 bucks? But when you blow the engine on a $10,000 German car, that hurts.

hpmctorque · March 2012

"150K is a very good time to bail out of a car."

That's reasonable. However, at 173,000 (by the time he returns to the UP) Host Steve is in that large grey area between 150,000-250,000. At 173,000 the condition of the vehicle, the reputation of the model for reliability (Yugo vs. Camry, to cite extremes), the owner's financial situation and how much the owner likes the vehicle vs. the desire for a different one, are among the factors to consider in deciding whether to spend as much as the value of the vehicle on a single major repair. Other factors include an owner's risk tolerance and patience, ability to perform repairs and how the vehicle will be used in the future. Since some factors are quantifiable, while others are subjective, conclusions about what to do and how much to spend will vary a lot in the 150,000-250,000 mileage range.

Circling back to an earlier question, about whether 150,000 or 200,000 is the new 100,000, I think the risk of a vehicle dying a premature death due to an accident is not relevant, even though accident risk is mileage related.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2012

Well accidents are relevant if you're the type of owner that has made all his decisions based on the assumption that the vehicle will last 250K miles--that is, for instance, putting lots of $$$ into the vehicle at 150K because "I intend to keep it another 10 years".

Lots of cars...LOTS of cars, get wiped out every year by accident. Your odds of at least getting smacked are pretty good actually.

Since most people wouldn't be carrying collision insurance on a 10 year old car with 175k on it and worth $2000--$3000 bucks, it's kind of a heart-breaker to have a perfectly good running car suddenly with a bashed in tailgate, smashed in unworkable door, etc.

It changes the entire equation of one's lifetime goal for the vehicle.

andre1969 · March 2012

Since most people wouldn't be carrying collision insurance on a 10 year old car with 175k on it and worth $2000--$3000 bucks, it's kind of a heart-breaker to have a perfectly good running car suddenly with a bashed in tailgate, smashed in unworkable door, etc.

I'm thankful I still had full coverage on my 2000 Intrepid when it got wrecked. Even though I only got $2,000 for it, the full coverage was only adding about $100 per year to the insurance policy, so I figured it was worth it.

Actually, in my case, my car might have been covered even if I didn't have full coverage. It was a victim of hit and run, which in Maryland is covered under the Uninsured Motorist portion of your insurance coverage. My '69 Dart, which just had liability, was covered by that when I got run off the road and ended up playing pole-vault with a traffic light post.

And, it looks like I'm in line to average totaling roughly one car every 10 years. I've been driving for 25 years now (got my license in December 1986, and Mom's old car in January 1987). Totaled the Dart in 1992. Got T-boned delivering pizzas in my '86 Monte Carlo in 1998. And in 2009, my Intrepid got hit-and-runned. Actually, that's three cars in 25 years...hope that doesn't mean I'm gonna average one every EIGHT years! :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright · March 2012

er...maybe not Andre. The way uninsured motorist reads is that you're covered IF you can identify the hit and run driver. But if you can't, tough duck.

andre1969 · March 2012

er...maybe not Andre. The way uninsured motorist reads is that you're covered IF you can identify the hit and run driver. But if you can't, tough duck.

I wonder if it's changed over the years? Back in 1992, I wasn't able to identify the truck that ran me off the road, beyond it being a dark blue 1987-91 Ford F-series. I couldn't get a license number, as it all happened too quickly. The policeman wrote up the accident as hit and run, and the insurance company paid me.

Unfortunately, I also had the state of Maryland trying to come after me for about 4 years, in an attempt to pay for that traffic light. Even though the accident wasn't my fault, was classified as hit and run, they didn't want to hear it. Eventually they dropped it though, once they finally saw the police report.

I guess it's possible that I just lucked out in that case, though?

I think the full coverage portion of my insurance is actually a little cheaper on my Park Ave, so I'm probably going to keep it, for the forseeable future, at least.

qbrozen · March 2012

only totalled my first vehicle, and we didn't report it to the insurance company.

xwesx · March 2012

My '69 Dart, which just had liability, was covered by that when I got run off the road and ended up playing pole-vault with a traffic light post.

I wasn't so lucky with my '96 Outback. Even though I was run off the road as well and ended up with a totaled vehicle, I got nothing for it. The insurance companies wouldn't touch it through, essentially, plausible deniability. I managed to avoid contacting the other vehicle, but not keeping it on the road, so even though I tracked the other driver down and he admitted to involvement, there was no physical proof that the vehicle was involved.

I learned my lesson on that one. If ever a situation arises again where a crash is likely inevitable, I'll take the contact first, then crash. I won't let another one go down without a fight.

stever · March 2012

So, since you agree with Shifty, are you going to drive your minivan until it dies, or trade it shortly after you return from your road trip?

Sloppy reply. :-) I agree with you (or, rather the article I guess) that 200k is the new 100k.

We like our van but if it croaks that's okay too. Certainly got out money's worth out of it. No plans to trade until we have to make that decision. Even then we may just deal with the Outback for a while.

I would like being in a newer car with more airbags though.

andre1969 · March 2012

I would like being in a newer car with more airbags though.

Just get a few more airbags in your current minivan. The cast from "The View" called. They need you to pick 'em up and drive them to the studio. :P

stever · March 2012

Not sure I get the reference. I transported someone's goat across town in a VW Bus one time back in the early 70s. The van is already full of flying projectiles as it is.

andre1969 · March 2012

Not sure I get the reference.

That was a clip from "Family Guy". And admittedly, my "airbag" comment could be taken a bit mysoginistically, so I apologize for that!

fintail · March 2012

I was going to say, I used to claim my fintail had an airbag - every time I gave my sister a ride :shades:

andre1969 · March 2012

I was going to say, I used to claim my fintail had an airbag - every time I gave my sister a ride

I think an older version of that type of joke was "My car has an automatic starter. It doesn't need a crank!"

stever · July 2012

I did a quickie road trip last Thursday on the way to a canoe camping trip and the service engine light flashed rapidly three or four times as I was going up an easy grade. We were loafing along, no AC on, and I had just cancelled the cruise control so the van wouldn't downshift going up the little hill.

Oh oh.

Ignored it, kept going. No more lights on the way to the put-in nor on the way back home. No easy access to a (free) code puller so I think I'll keep ignoring it until it flashes again.

The van may be irritated with me because in addition to new shoes a while back, the Subaru got a 4 wheel brake job done a couple of weeks ago.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2012

Might have been a misfire--a burp---

xwesx · July 2012

Let us hope!

When is the last time you put new plug wires (or plugs, for that matter) on it, Steve? If it is otherwise running well, it could just be a symptom that it might be time to check those things to make sure they aren't going to cause more frequent issues in the near future.

xwesx · July 2012

I finally ran a leak-down test on my Escort a couple weeks ago, and the results pretty much confirmed what I already suspected: The rings aren't happy, and the valve seats may (?) be developing cracks.

I almost don't even want to dig into it because I'll be thinking the whole time, "while I'm in here, I might as well do this, and that, and this, and the other, and...." The engine generally runs great aside from it continually losing power little by little. While I ran the test, there was a substantial amount of air flow from the crankcase (coming out the hose that goes (or used to go, anyway) to the PCV). All four cylinders were within a couple percent of 20% loss, according to the gauge. So, that indicates that while wear is fairly consistent, it is at the point where something needs to be done.

I was thinking I would get a rebuilt head (save me quite a bit of time and not really cost much more considering the incremental cost of all the parts that go in there) and focus on just going in, replacing the rings, and re-hone the cylinder walls, while only replacing the gaskets, seals, etc., that need to be done as part of that process.

I'm sure I could go overboard and replace every little piece and part in there along the way, but I am planning to move on to a new car in the not-too-distant future. If I can keep myself to a $1000 (or under) project, this seems like a reasonable course of action to me.

Thoughts?

stever · July 2012

Plugs and wires were done at 124k back in May, 2008, so only 52,000 miles ago.

while I'm in here, I might as well do this

Sounds like home remodeling. At least when you change out the plugs, that doesn't make the battery look dingy or the air filter housing look outdated.

tjc78 · July 2012

I think before I did all that refurb work, I would be checking out the junkyards for a decent used engine. It can't be that horrible a job on an Escort and would probably have the car up and running faster.

Just my .02.

xwesx · July 2012

If the car wasn't running currently, I would strongly consider that. As it is, I am not convinced that any used engine out of a yard would be in any better running condition than the one I currently have.

tjc78 · July 2012

Good point. If you could get lucky and find a low mileage wreck, otherwise your plan may be better.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2012

How many miles on this engine? Is it burning oil?

xwesx · July 2012

I'm just about to turn over 160,000. It loses a little bit; perhaps a quart+ every 3,000 (I tend to put around a gallon of "make up oil" in it every year between changes). I don't have the hose to the PCV connected, though, and it does send a little bit out that way (not sure how much that adds up). I'm sure some of it ends up in the cylinders, but not enough to observe any blue smoke out the tailpipe. It doesn't have any leaks on the engine, though, so oil loss must be through one of these other means.

Sorry for the slow reply; had a bit of an emergency last week that put me way behind on everything, including visiting Edmunds!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2012

Well that's not an oil burner, so internally the engine is probably okay. your leak down is probably a valve issue then--so a new head would fix that. I usually dont' recommend a new head on an oil burning engine.

xwesx · July 2012

Meaning that I shouldn't bother pulling it apart, or that it is worth the effort to do so because the major components are likely to be in good condition? If the former, any thoughts on what else might be causing the excessive pressure in the crankcase?

bioman · July 2012

I don't want to make waves or controversy, but why is this thread here? By repairing older vehicles you are not being that green. I could better see threads like this in a forum deal with keeping older vehicles rolling or a forum dealing with restored vehicles. Most of the last few discussions did not involve the Prius.

Just m2C.

Bioman

xwesx · July 2012

It's here because somebody wanted to discuss it. One of the best aspects of the Edmunds forum is its breadth, not to mention the voluntary nature of participation in discussions held within.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2012

Well I think one could argue quite persuasively that rebuilding an old car is "green", in the sense that it takes quite a few barrels of oil to make a new car---even one whole barrel just to make a new tire.

It's an oblique way of interpreting what "going green" means---it's the "conservation" angle IMO.

stever · July 2012

Four Rs of recycling:

Reduce, reuse, recycle and repair.

For the classic car crowd, add restore and rebuild.

If you a geeky tinkerer, then convert it to CNG and reinvent it.

If you're a gardener, then substitute rot for repair (which is what your old car will do in your yard if you don't keep it running

)

Okay, 8 Rs of recycling.

andre1969 · July 2012

Plus, I imagine it would take a lot of energy to dispose of and recycle an old car. Unless you just retire it out to the back forty and let it rust in peace.

hpmctorque · July 2012

Clever play on words!

lemko · July 2012

Reduce, reuse, recycle, repair, and R-body?

Mr_Shiftright · July 2012

However, it is, IMO, a myth that a modern country could "conserve" itself back to energy independence.

At best, we can mitigate the downward spiral by conservation.

stever · November 2012

We're counting years before trading, not miles.

Ford 6.02 years
Infiniti 6.1 years
Lincoln 6.79 years
Mitsubishi/Buick 6.92 years (tie)
Jaguar 7.0 years
Volvo 7.05 years

"Recent data from Edmunds.com show which car brands Americans drive the longest before they exchange them for new vehicles."

Which Cars Do Owners Keep Longest? (Wall St Journal)

stever · February 2013

A journalist is looking for proud owners of cars 11+ years old to ask why you love your car. If you love your old car and would like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Monday, March 4, 2013 at noon PT/3 p.m. ET.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2013

6 years for our 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. Still love the car and it's exhibiting the coolest engine scrolling these days. We're gonna head over to Las Cruces to this Chinese fast food place tomorrow, then head the short 45 miles south to El Paso to shop.

I need a pair of black scrubs. Cardiopulmonary employees have two scrub color choices: maroon or black. Need me a dark, black pair of scrubs. There's a strip mall with a scrub store located between Las Cruces and El Paso on the way south to El Paso I'll check out. And I'll open up those 4 cylinders on the Mitsu, too.

That's what I'm talkin' about!

stever · May 2013

"For local dealers, it's just a paycheck. "I don't know why Americans don't fix their cars after an accident and keep using them," salesman Abdullah said. "Perhaps they have so much money they don't care? Anyways, we sell 'em all."

Smashed U.S. cars get a second chance in Afghanistan (LA Times)

hpmctorque · May 2013

Interesting article! It makes me feel very fortunate.

fintail · May 2013

Very cool article. Europeans have been selling their cast offs - inspection failures to the less developed world for decades, makes sense that we'd get in on it too. It's kind of the ultimate recycling.

Rebuilt wrecks are a touchy subject. Many fear them and with good reason, as you never know the quality of the repair, and it destroys resale value, so one better be prepared to drive it til it dies. I wouldn't be scared of the right rebuild, but I would want all the history.

hpmctorque · October 2013

"The average age of all light vehicles on the road climbed to 11.4 years in 2013, and an aging fleet will continue to force buyers back to the market next year," says Edmunds.com Chief Economist Dr. Lacey Plache.

I think this represents a record, and proof that more people are driving their cars into the ground. Maybe the increasing average age of cars on the road is due more to improvements in car design, materials and assembly than to the soft economy and greater income disparity. Just a guess. Also, people are driving less, on average, thereby decreasing wear.

Any guesses as to what the average age will be in 10 years?

xwesx · October 2013

Depending on how the statisticians go about their business (is this based on registered vehicles or driven vehicles?!), I predict the average age will drop, and somewhat dramatically, from the current 11.4.

Why? Well, we are in a transitional time, I think. Emissions and fuel economy standards are pushing technology to new levels, and cabin tech is also changing at an increasing pace. Interactive technology in cars will also lead people away from their current vehicles as it ages and their dissatisfaction/frustration grows, and the time it takes for that to happen is going to drop.

I think the average car age will be closer to 7 years in 10 years, perhaps moderated a bit by those second/third/fourth vehicles on the registration rolls (even if rarely used or not used at all), so let's say ~9.

hpmctorque · October 2013

So you're saying that the average age will reverse course and decline, and rather rapidly. I'd bet against that, and predict that the trend in motion will remain in motion. My guess is that the average vehicle age will be around 12 years by the end of 2023. I understand what you're saying, but cars are lasting longer than they were, which I believe will trump the reasons you cited.

andre1969 · October 2013

I don't think the average age is going to drop anytime soon, but I don't think it can stretch out much further. Even though cars tend to last longer, they also tend to be more expensive to repair than in days gone by. As they age, they still lose value, and eventually it gets to the point that one major repair will make the car not worth fixing.

Also, cars are much easier to total in an accident than in days gone by. I know someone who recently totaled a fairly new Passat CC, or whatever they call that good looking "pillared hardtop" looking thing, in a rear end collision. I saw pics of it, and it didn't look *that* bad. But it was enough to total it.

My uncle hit a deer with his 2003 Corolla a few years back, and it did about $4800 worth of damage. Also left him stranded, as all the coolant leaked out, and it pushed the fender back into the tire. Also pushed the fender back into the door so it wouldn't open!

Dunno if the deer thing is really an indication of how flimsy cars are these days. Back in the 1990's, one of my neighbors hit a deer with a '65 Impala, and it did a pretty good number on that car. And I'm sure that if, in the late 70's you hit a deer with something like a Pinto, Vega, Civic, Corolla, etc, the results wouldn't have been pretty, either.

I know my actions would never be enough to sway the averages, but I've been thinking about trading more often. I've been toying with the idea of trading my 2012 Ram right around the time it turns 5 years old and the warranty runs out. But, to offset that, I also have a '57, '67, '76, two '79's, an '85, and an '00 that get another notch added to their bedposts every year they stay registered, titled, and out of the junkyard!

ohenryx · October 2013

What you are speaking of is known as the "crumple zone" or "crush space". It is on purpose, it saves lives, and it makes cars much more expensive to repair after a collision. But it is still a "very good thing" (copyright applied for).

Yes, it will put more cars in the junk yard, but people are walking away from accidents that might have killed them in years gone by. What we need now are fewer accidents, but that would require real driver training, and that ain't gonna happen.

Back to the original topic: My belief is that the average age of cars on the road will continue to go up, although not by much. Cars do last longer (leaving aside collisions), and the ever widening income gap means that fewer and fewer people will be able to afford a new car.

lemko · October 2013

...of my fleet is 11.5 years, as including my 1989 Brougham in the mix acounts for it. I imagine andre1969 including his 1957 DeSoto would really drive up the average age of his fleet.

snakeweasel · October 2013

I'll throw in my 1 cent (that's my two cents after taxes). First I would like to know what is the average age of ownership for the cars on the road. I would guess that a lot of cars that have been on the road for 11.4 years have had more than one owner.

While build and reliability of todays cars has a lot to do with that average age of a car the economy has a lot to do with it to. Not many people today can afford either to get a new car every 4 or 5 years or a new car at all. I cannot see that changing in the next 4 or 5 years. We may never see a sizable true middle class again for quite some time.

My guess is that over the next ten years the average age of a car will increase by 0.1 to 0.2 years per year. So in ten years look at the average age to be around 13 years.

andre1969 · October 2013

Yeah, crumple zones are definitely a good thing, there's no denying that. But it is aggravating how much damage even a low-speed impact can inflict.

However, even that is nothing new. One reason that 5 mph bumpers were enacted in the first place back in the 1970's was that it was getting too easy to run up big repair bills in minor impacts. It was mainly the safety aspects of the car they were looking to protect...lights and such. But, I remember Consumer Reports running some vehicle into a wall at only 2.5 mph or so, and it was enough to disable it! I think it was a Chevy LUV, and the impact punctured the radiator.

And, crumple zones aside, sometimes cars are just designed stupidly. My 2000 Intrepid was totaled when someone pulled a hit and run on it in a restaurant parking lot. The damage actually looked fairly minor, but the wiring harness was routed in a bad spot, passing just behind the headlight, and ended up getting ripped. I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Anyway, here's all it took, to total that car...

Before I bought my 2000 Park Avenue, I made sure to check the location of the wiring harness. Even though they say lightning never strikes twice in the same spot, I was a bit paranoid at the time...

Go Green By Driving It 'Til The Wheels Fall Off

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