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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 10,261
    Honestly Lemko, I always thought they were 'girly' too. The typical driver around here was a twenty-something office type.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I postulate that the EPA testing doesn't discriminate and show the real advantage of the fuel efficiency of the smaller car

    I agree. At least their web site also accepts real-world MPG as input. We should check those numbers as well, and not just rely on EPA numbers, which are obtained in a lab.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    GM seems to be taking the lead in a low priced e-assist system

    It's not really low priced, though:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2011/12/19/2013-chevrolet-malibu-eco-first-drive-revie- - - w/

    The 2013 Chevrolet Malibu will set you back $25,996, including destination, which doesn't exactly make it a steal compared to the more efficient 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid at $25,900 excluding destination

    I hope it's very well equipped else it will need a $1000+ rebate ASAP.

    By the way, I agree that the Passat's success is a curiosity. I think it's because they dropped the price, primarily. $19,995 base now.

    How long before you save $6000 worth of gas on a Malibu Eco?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I still remember going to the DC auto show back in early 2010, and I swear the Chrysler products they had on display had about the most perfect paint jobs of all the cars there

    I was there, too.

    Did you also notice the Fiat booth had the hottest models?

    wife slaps me

    I mean, I *HEARD* from other unmarried men that Fiat had the hottest models.

    wife slaps me again

    Never mind.

    You going again? We should get an Edmunds crew together and meet up there.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,727
    I always thought they were 'girly' too.

    Regardless, the last gen Probe GT was a very good performing car and Ford sold a lot of them.

    I have an uncle that's about 6 years older than me and he bought a '94 Probe GT v6 manual trans of college. I drove it many times and it was a fun car. Extremely smooth revving v6 with a broad powerband, tight handling, good gearbox, good steering feel, and strong brakes. Plus they were reliable. A better engineered and much tighter car than a Mustang at the time.

    Girly or not, they were about as much fun you could have in a FWD car. No they weren't a Mustang. Thankfully Ford came to their senses and listened to the customer for once.

    I don't know if they're girly or not. I see women driving v6 Camaros all of the time, are they girly too? A base Mustang was know as a secretary's car for years. Who cares, some women like sporty cars too.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,143
    he Civic was significantly smaller than the Vega, and the Chevette was significantly smaller than the Vega as well. The Civic came out in 1972, the Chevette in 1975 (gee, just about the right amount of time to realize they needed to get into the subcompact segment). The Vega continued to be made until 1977, the Vega was clearly in a different class and the Chevette didn't replace Vega, it sold concurrently:

    Chevrolet Vega - 170 in long (and that was BEFORE the 1974 bumpers which added 5 more inches to the length)
    Honda Civic - 147 in long
    Chevrolet Chevette - 159 in long


    Those are pretty noticeable differences by today's standards, but back in those days, if it was shorter than about 190 inches, I think the typical American lumped them all together as "small" cars. The smallest domestic compact was probably the 2-door Maverick, which was sort of an anomaly, on an abbreviated 103" wheelbase and probably around 185" long. Your more typical compact was around 190-206", midsized cars ran from around 205" to 220" plus, and big cars started around 218" and, once they started putting the 5 mph bumpers on, some of them broke the 230" barrier.

    IMO, GM really botched up with the Chevette by initially only offering it as a 2-door hatchback, from the abbreviated 1975 model year though 1977. The 4-door hatch wouldn't debut until 1978, the same year as the much more modern (but not necessarily reliable) Plymouth Horizon and Dodge Omni.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 10,261
    don't know if they're girly or not. I see women driving v6 Camaros all of the time, are they girly too?

    Yes. And this from a GM guy.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,143
    Did you also notice the Fiat booth had the hottest models?

    No comment, because I fear it will summon a phone call from my ex-wife! :P

    Another thing I noticed at the 2010 show was that they no longer had the Rolls Royces and Bentleys up on the pedestals and roped off, so all of us bougie class and trailer-park dwellers could actually get up and get our fingerprints on the things!

    Maybe business was hurting enough for RR and Bentley that they decided they need to get off their high horse and mingle a bit more with the crowds. Not that any of us could probably afford one!

    You going again? We should get an Edmunds crew together and meet up there.

    Haven't decided yet on this year, but I might go down. I missed it last year. Was planning on going to the Philly show last year, but I came down with an ear infection and had to back out.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    edited December 2011
    LOL, the girls I went to college with at the time were driving what we used to call "Plasticars"; Z24 Cavaliers, and Grand Ma's with tacked on plastic and rubbermade interiors, handed down to them by their parents.

    image

    "Ribbed for her pleasure" :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,143
    don't know if they're girly or not. I see women driving v6 Camaros all of the time, are they girly too?

    Yes. And this from a GM guy.


    Last year, when I was in a different location at work, I used to see a V-6 Camaro in the parking lot, which was driven by a guy. Found out that he was a secretary! :P So, I guess that stigma still stands! Actually, is it politically correct to say "secretary" anymore?

    Kinda sad though, that the V-6 still has that chick/secretary stigma. That ~300 hp would probably equate to around ~400 gross, back in the good old days, and I'm sure the V-6/automatic Camaro would smoke most of those old 60's muscle and pony cars.
  • Another Equinox rebadge.

    Latest Buick Encore teaser shows us more of the same

    Don't want to leave Buick out! :sick:
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,143
    Kinda sad, but I always remember the Cavalier Z-24 as being a decent little car, but the one that comes to mind for me is the 1988-90 style which, IMO, was probably about where the Cavalier peaked out. It actually had, dare I say, a nice interior! And good looks, too. They started botching it up with a 1991 restyle though that cheapened the look, both inside and out, and then when the 1995 redesign came out, I didn't like it at all. That's when it really started feeling like a cheap rental car, IMO.

    One of my cousins, who I guess is in her mid 60's by now, wanted a Grand Am SOOOO bad back in the day. She had a Ford Probe, but it's been so long ago that she had it I can't remember the year, but she was probably in her mid 40's when she got it.

    She finally did get her Grand Am, a silver coupe. Forget what year it was, but it was the final generation. I think it was fairly reliable, but just an uninspiring car all around. I don't know what happened to it though. When her mother (my great-great aunt) went into a nursing home, she got her '04 or so Impala, and whenever I see her she's driving that.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,727
    edited December 2011
    LOL, the girls I went to college with at the time were driving what we used to call "Plasticars"; Z24 Cavaliers, and Grand Ma's with tacked on plastic and rubbermade interiors, handed down to them by their parents.

    Those and Chevy Berettas. A Probe was an exotic compared to those piles of junk.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,727
    Yes. And this from a GM guy.

    Fair enough;)
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,727
    edited December 2011
    Actually, is it politically correct to say "secretary" anymore?

    LOL, I guess that would be an administrative assistant;)

    But yeah, today's v6 Mustangs and Camaros will out perform most pony cars from the 70's and 80's.

    The v6 Mustang is probably nearly as quick as the early '90's Cobra mustangs. Granted it doesn't have the torque but is nearly matches the HP and add better gearing and it's close.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,727
    400 gross, back in the good old days, and I'm sure the V-6/automatic Camaro would smoke most of those old 60's muscle and pony cars.

    No question. My dad had a 71 Mustang convertible with a 2bbl 351 that I drove quite often in HS and it probably would have a hard time out running a Cruze. Sure the Mustangs and Camaros back then could be had with big HP v8's, but few had them, so no doubt a base mustang or camaro would blow away the average model from the '60's and 70's.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,727
    My hot rod would be a Boss 302. :)

    Good choice, Ford's new DOHC 5.0 v8 is sweet. Over 440hp and 7,500rpm. NICE!
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,630
    Perhaps that is the reason as Jeep looks vastly improved as well.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,630
    Actually I am having a hard time with my dream 'Vette now that the Boss 302 is around...

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 10,261
    I never knew a girl with a V6 Cavalier. I bought a Beretta GT new and enjoyed it. I think it looked way less-girly than a Probe, of which I remember so many being naked down the side and having plain silver wheel covers (the Probe, that is). Plus, who wants a car with a name that reminds one of a visit to the proctologist?
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,630
    Looks like the blast out of the gate has slowed significantly. Market is filled to the brim.

    image

    Last week, GM shut down production of the Cruze, saying only that it had an unspecified “supplier issue.” But Automotive News [sub] reports that had already GM shut down the Lordstown plant for the entire week of November 28, after inventories shot from 33 days supply to 73 days supply during the months of September and October. As of December 1, inventories had risen higher still, to 88 days, as sales continue to slacken. Lordstown reopened yesterday, but with sales falling and inventories running out of control, another slowdown or stoppage of production seems inevitable.

    So, what happened to the Cruze’s sales? The fact that its downturn coincided with the switch from 2011 to 2012 is certainly mysterious, as GMInsidenews’s reliable guide to 2012 model-year changes shows that only the following features were deleted from Cruze in the switch from 2011 to 2012:

    (GAP) Imperial Blue Metallic exterior color
    (EN4) Cargo cover compartment
    Rear center headrest on all trims

    Surely a lost cargo cover compartment and rear center headrest don’t explain the downturn… which might actually be cause for even greater concern. If GM could pinpoint a specific problem that is keeping buyers away from new 2012 Cruzes, it could remedy it fairly easily. As things stand though, it’s tough not to conclude that GM may simply have filled the bulk of market demand for their car, and that it’s now losing out to the brutally tough competition in its segment. If that’s the case, it doesn’t bode well for The General… at least in terms of perception, as the Cruze goes, so goes GM.


    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,170
    And I'm in California and am definitely in a state that is losing to others.

    I'm in CA too. I think CA has the problem of being too greedy. They are chasing away businesses, and or driving boycotts toward CA businesses by going after online companies such as Amazon for greedy sales tax.

    What do online companies do in response to CA's claim for greedy sales tax since they had affiliates in CA? They simply drop all their CA affiliates, merchants, and manufacturers, and go on about their way!
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,170
    Where's the "rocket" part? How about the DI 3.6L in there, and add AWD. Then sell it for $25K.

    Maybe the 138 HP, which is less than a base standard Civic these days is rocketable since the car could be 2,000 lbs light. OH WAIT, it's a Chevy/GM, nevermind, I'll bet 10,000 dollars it isn't 2,000 lbs. or less.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Just for kicks:

    Year, Make, Model, Passenger Volume, Cargo Volume, EPA combined, Price

    2012 Hyundai Sonata SE 104 16 28 $23,855
    2013 Chevrolet Malibu Eco 100 14 30 $25,995
    2012 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid 104 11 37 $26,545
    2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid 103 13 41 $26,660
    2012 Kia Optima Hybrid 102 10 37 $27,250
    2012 VW Passat TDI SE (AT) 102 16 34 $27,895
    2012 Ford Fusion Hybrid 100 12 39 $29,395

    I put them in ascending order by price, for similar models (not cheapest because the Eco is well equipped).

    Using the Sonata SE as the fuel economy benchmark for non-hybrids, gas was $3.39 this morning, diesel $4.09, you can adjust for prices in your region but this is my post so here goes...

    Benchmark (Sonata SE) cost per 100 miles is 100/28=3.57*$3.39 per gallon=$12.11.

    Eco cost per 100 miles is 100/30=3.33*3.39 per gal is $11.30, so you save 81 cents every hundred miles. To make up the $2140 premium you would have to drive 264,198 miles. Assuming the chinese-made eAssist motor and the batteries last that long.

    Creating an Excel spreadsheet to make life easier, and I get:

    73,014 for TCH
    91,253 for Sonata vs. Sonata
    115,169 for Optima Hybrid
    162,098 for Fusion
    264,198 for Eco
    5,013,139 for TDI (because diesel costs $4.09)

    The only ones even worth considering for the MPG gains are the Sonata and Camry. You may want the TDI for the 700 mile range, though, or if diesel costs less in your region.

    If gas prices go up, you break-even sooner, but it's still proportional, so the ranking order would not change.

    The only way the 100k+ crowd makes any sense is if you get much deeper discounts. Else forget it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Don't write off the Encore as just another rebadge - I'm hoping they stuff the 3.6l V6 in there.

    Remember, the Verano got powertrains that were unique, not the ones from the Cruze.

    The 3l V6 in the 'nox and Terrain isn't nearly as intersting as the 3.6l from the Buick Enclave, and Buick dealers already know how to work on that engine.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,727
    edited December 2011
    Probe, of which I remember so many being naked down the side and having plain silver wheel covers

    Yeah, there were a lot of those, and there were a lot of GT's too. My wife had a '94 Probe SE (basically looked like a GT w/o the v6) with a manual trans. It actually was a fun car. The Mazda sourced 4cyl was a gem compared to the buzz box her previous Saturn SL2 had. It was fun to drive and 100% reliable to over 100k miles. Would have loved for her to get a GT, but back then the we were thin on money.

    Sure the name was dumb, but the car was fun. I had friends with Beretta GTs and Z24s, the Probe GT was in another league. But it was a more sporty car overall too. I don't think they really competed. I'd say the Probe competed with more with the Eclipse/Laser/Talon and maybe a Prelude. I know all girly cars compared to a tough macho Beretta LOL.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    GM just needs to bring the diesel and maybe consider the 5 door as well, to keep the product fresh.

    Let's hope they keep improving on it.

    Also, gas is cheap, so I wonder if the whole 40mpg club is suffering?
  • image

    IIRC, this was a stock color. :D
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,170
    edited December 2011
    That does stink of Saab to do that.

    I think you meant that does stink of GM to do that. Blaming SAAB is like blaming Obama for the Recession. The problems started with Bush and GM in these cases.

    I'm sure the gov't will honor SAAB's warranties just as our tax money already goes to paying for GM and Chrysler's warranties (even if indirectly).

    Why not bail out SAAB? Who's picking winners and losers?
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
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