GM News, New Models and Market Share

uplanderguy · November 2012

Our dealer got exactly one Cosworth Vega in...serial no. 372 which is now owned by a longtime acquaintance. I was 17 then, and a salesman friend of mine took me and a buddy on a thrill ride over 'West Main Hill' out into the country with it. I remember saying "this thing is fast" and the salesman, Claude, replying, "Hell, I'm still in third gear".

They weren't fast by today's standards, but they were fast for a four, good-looking, and collectible today (though not bringing huge money). The sticker was $6,300 and it was eventually sold to a little old lady who worked at Thiel College...no s**t. She traded in a '72 Nova six for it and the salesman, who was my Dad's salesman, said that 'it reminded her of her husband's old Corvair'. She could barely see over the wheel. One day while parked in our library parking lot, an acquaintance went over and tapped on the fenders and realized she was sitting in it! She was amused. That guy owns the car now as she passed and it went through two or three other owners before being traded in the '90's at a Chevy dealer fifteen miles away, on a used Corvette. He bought it there. BTW, the $6,300 sticker price was down to $4,800 before her trade, according to the paperwork that came with the car when the current owner bought it.

uplanderguy · November 2012

Tsk-tsk on HyunKia.

ateixeira · November 2012

Also happened with the Honda Civic hybrid, though laywers got billions and owners got $100 coupons if and only if they bought another new Honda, LOL.

Wonder how much the lawyers are getting this time? At least owners get something.

imidazol97 · November 2012

>exaggerated mileage claims by Kia.

WHAT? They aren't 100% the perfect cars? Amazing.

Just saw one getting great mileage today: Kia Optima sitting along I-75 with its flashers going. No driver. No movement. Great gas mileage!

A few days ago saw an Optima on a flatbed truck being helped back to the garage.

Is there a problem with these Kias?

iluvmysephia1 · November 2012

a 1968 Datsun 510 sedan. Built ta take on BMW at its best!

ateixeira · November 2012

No, it's a fuel saving feature meant to reduce your environmental footprint.

ateixeira · November 2012

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/01/october-2012-brewing-storm-edition/

Kia was up 13% but Hyundai reported their first drop in 2 years.

tlong · November 2012

WHAT? They aren't 100% the perfect cars? Amazing.

Now imid, you just KNOW that all brands except GM are perfect. :P

imidazol97 · November 2012

>all brands except GM are perfect.

Exactly my point. Why are these cars having troubles? They're the perfect ones.

bpizzuti · November 2012

Had to see this coming, they had too many models that simply couldn't make their numbers unless they happened to be press vehicles.

GM. Toyota, Ford, etc etc have been criticized, and rightly so, for designing to the EPA tests and/or making it hard to reach the numbers in any situation outside of the EPA test. But it looks like they outright fudged the tests intentionally, though they're not admitting that they fudged them with the objective of a 40 MPG rating (the idea was to "ensure accuracy hah!).

cooterbfd · November 2012

"........ On a media conference call, Hyundai and Kia attributed the discrepancies to "honest mistakes" and "human error" during in-house fuel economy evaluations"

Like their cars, you get what you pay for!!!!

dieselone · November 2012

Like their cars, you get what you pay for!!!!

That would be an improvement over the GM vehicles I've had.

andres3 · November 2012

That would be an improvement over the GM vehicles I've had.

Exactly! With the Korean brands, you get what you pay for, lower initial cheap costs, and perhaps some extra hassles and decreased fuel economy down the road.

With the US brands, it seems you pay top dollar and get bottom feeding product.

uplanderguy · November 2012

My '11 Malibu 4/6AT was rated at 33 mpg highway. Put 250 highway miles on it yesterday, with speeds of 75-80. 33.4 mpg.

I do remember having a discussing with circle a few months ago, that MT got only 20 or 21 mpg with their Optima, and he was arguing that the EPA rating was 37. THAT is quite a difference.

andres3 · November 2012

Consumer Reports also reports real world mileage which is more trustworthy and accurate than the EPA numbers, but I have a feeling the car mags other than CR will give better indications of real world mileage for a driver that likes to drive spiritedly.

dieselone · November 2012

I do remember having a discussing with circle a few months ago, that MT got only 20 or 21 mpg with their Optima, and he was arguing that the EPA rating was 37. THAT is quite a difference.

That's what MT got out of a '13 2.5 powered Malibu in this months family car comparison.

Granted they weren't testing highway mileage, but calculated the mileage during the entire evaluation.

dieselone · November 2012

I have a feeling the car mags other than CR will give better indications of real world mileage for a driver that likes to drive spiritedly.

I agree. My wife has averaged about 25mpg over the 35k miles she's put on her '11 Taurus. When I drive it, the average will easily drop 5+mpg.

uplanderguy · November 2012

With the US brands, it seems you pay top dollar and get bottom feeding product.

With that statement, it is crystal clear to me how long it's been since you've actually shopped a domestic brand for price. I'm not talking sticker...I'm talking about what you can actually buy for if you're even the remotest negotiator.

bpizzuti · November 2012

If they come off of sticker that easily then something is wrong with the sticker pricing. They aren't priced properly to move product, and coming down off of MSRP makes it much more likely they they AREN'T making money off of them, and they're just trying to get them off the lots before they cost even more money.

BTW, Ford seems less inclined to move off of MSRP than GM and Dodge around here. Not quite as glued to MSRP as Subaru (this IS the northeast after all) but pretty close.

dave8697 · November 2012

Hundai and Kia.... The two companies that just admitted to lying about gas mileage numbers. You can do well lying to Americans so why not? 34 mpgs....5.5 million new jobs.

andre1969 · November 2012

Heck, I just got out of a Kia that only averaged something like 14.8 mpg! :sick: However, I guess I should mention the context...it was a Kia Opirus (or rather "OP RUS", as the I was missing on the trunk) rental car in Aruba, with about 66,000 KM on it. Essentially, what we got here in the States as the Amanti. I dunno what year it was or what engine it had, but it was pretty beat on. Every single body panel, with the exception of the trunklid had some kind of scrape or dent. Steering felt loose, numb, and sloppy, the belts squealed from time to time, and sometimes it cranked awhile before starting. Oh, and it had a roach in it! :surprise:

But, to be fair, rental cars, or any car for that matter, probably lives a very rough life down there. We had the a/c running all the time, usually full blast, and just about all the driving was local stop and go, very rare that I even had the chance to get up to 80 kph.

I kinda looked down my nose at the car when Avis gave it to me. But all in all, it wasn't a bad car. It was fairly comfortable and roomy, and had a big trunk...seemed much roomier than the 16 cubic feet the EPA rates it at. I just hope we didn't bring any roaches back home, because of it!

dieselone · November 2012

Oh, and it had a roach in it!

Was it the kind that is a creepy crawly, or the type Cheech might have left behind?;)

berri · November 2012

Andre is in Aruba my [non-permissible content removed]...Fintail posted a pix of his Park Ave. in Europe over on I spotted a classic car!

busiris · November 2012

Remember... A bad ride always beats a good walk!

circlew · November 2012

There's treatment for obsessions and compulsions today, you know.

Yes. GM-Disease is easily curable. :shades:

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy · November 2012

If they come off of sticker that easily then something is wrong with the sticker pricing.

Your relative youth is showing.

It's been that way since the mists of prehistory in the auto-buying world.

circlew · November 2012

I beleive my statemet was I achieved 37 mpg on long strictly hwy trips. That was with the oem nexen tires. I dropped 3mpg's with the new Khumo Ecsta 4x tires rated at AA traction.

I consistently get 26mpg tank/tank on commutes to work which is stop and go turnpike/back roads 50/50.

Seems my model wasn't affected!

EPA Investigation Prompts Carmaker to Correct Inflated Mileage Claims

1 mpg in most cases. No big deal but like I said before, GM-Disease is highly contagious given the quest to be #1 instead of "The Best".

I noticed sales of the Malibu have fallen well below the Optima. What's going on??

Regards,
OW

bpizzuti · November 2012

It's been that way since the mists of prehistory in the auto-buying world.

Only for auto companies that required bailouts. Gee, maybe there's a pattern there! :shades:

busiris · November 2012

True, ever since I was a child I remember my father negotiating car prices.

What changed over my lifetime was the amount, in $$$ and %%%, of those discounts.

Unless it was a year-end clearance of bloated model lineups in the 1960's, getting anything like a 10% discount on a new car purchase was unheard of.

Today, with manufacturer rebates, dealer discounts and special programs (ie., student, military, first time buyer discounts), its certainly not unheard of to see a $20K car discounted well over $2K, even before the price "dickering" begins.

And, from the car buying I've done in my life, the Big-3 seem to be leading the pack in that regard.

It's great for a buyer wanting the highly discounted product, and it may indeed be an excellent deal, but it does nothing to improve the image of the selling car company. In fact, it "brands" it with an inferior image.

uplanderguy · November 2012

I can only reply with 'duh'. Trust me, it's been like that for Ford since the mists of prehistory, too. You just were in diapers then apparently.

uplanderguy · November 2012

I'm not an 'image' buyer, although we could afford to be. Never was, never will be.

bpizzuti · November 2012

And yet Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and Mazda are generally able to sell at or close to MSRP.

Your reply tells me you don't care, obviously your GM does things the right way and it matters not if they lose money, right?

fezo · November 2012

I can only reply with 'duh'. Trust me, it's been like that for Ford since the mists of prehistory, too. You just were in diapers then apparently.

I know that this time your rude comment was not directed at me but it's the one that puts you over the top. You've made it to my ignore list.

ateixeira · November 2012

GM. Toyota, Ford, etc etc have been criticized, and rightly so, for designing to the EPA tests

Problem could be the test itself, which is performed on a dyno indoors, which all sorts of mathematical corrections. Lots of numbers to play with.

I keep reading that idle start/stop doesn't affect EPA number, but it sure would change real world mileage.

I'm skeptical when I see Ford claiming the C Max beats its rival by +7mpg, it just doesn't sound realistic. If it actually does, it would be on my short list for my minivan replacement, as I will likely downsize the family car next time around.

busiris · November 2012

"And yet Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and Mazda are generally able to sell at or close to list..."

That's sort of the point I was making. And, it isn't just those brands...

GM's attempt at implementing "no discount selling", ala Saturn, was a failure, both in its pricing strategy and product lineup. Dent free door and body panels? Not on any recently made Saturn that I remember. Saturn simply became America's Opel dealer.

The pricing strategy failed because buyers knew who owned Saturn, and if the Saturn dealer wouldn't discount, the guy right down the street at the next big-3 dealership would be more than happy to oblige.

I give credit to GM for its attempt to break out of the "discount pricing" model, but it was never going to work due to the way the rest of GM operated its sales patterns.

Apple certainly has proven you can gain market share, without discounting, by selling desirable products. Some may say "only yuppee-types buy Apple stuff", but it's awful difficult to argue with Apple's results... And there isn't any shortage of competition in the market Apple operates in, either.

ateixeira · November 2012

I think the reason GM uses incentives is that it allows them to artificially increase sales figures, on paper at least.

If they really did cut discounts, claimed income would drop.

Example: say a car sells for $25,000 but comes with a $3000 rebate. On paper, they will add $25,000 to sales, and then add a line item for incentives at ($3000) to offset.

Truth is it was $22000 in sales, not $25k.

But by adding the rebate, they can claim sales are 3/22 = 14% greater!

The real loser is the consumer, in states like MD you pay sales tax on the pre-rebate amount. At 6% here in MD, that means you pay an extra $180 in state sales tax just so GM can fudge their income statement to look better.

Dealer friends I speak to ask for Factory-to-dealer incentives instead, because that's not taxed, and lowers the price a consumer pays by that $180.

It's basically a game of numbers. If GM eliminated all rebates tomorrow and instead just lowered prices by the same amount, Wall Street would scream murder about a huge drop in "sales" the next quarter and the stock would plummet.

It's a messed up system.

uplanderguy · November 2012

I'm sorry about that, but your choice of course. I have been far more on the receiving end of rude and even idiotic comments here...only a couple posters in particular...but I haven't yet felt the need to use the 'ignore' feature. Ignore away, though. (By 'idiotic', I primarily mean factually incorrect. Anyone can have an opinion of course, but the factually-incorrect stuff I've seen on here is just, well...staggering.)

Did the poster who claims people who 'Buy 'Murican' are racist, make it to your 'ignore' list?

I could only add that apparently you haven't been reading two or three of the regular posters' posts here, for very long.

I don't go on a Toyota forum and spew venom... because I don't like Toyotas. But there's a lot of the opposite that goes on here.

uplanderguy · November 2012

Well, since the Malibu is a new car and only available with anything but the Eco engine in the past sixty days, I would say that was to be expected. You're famous for leaving out stuff that should be in the discussion...but you know that already.

What in your opinion is the reason for Hyundai's reliability free fall of late?

uplanderguy · November 2012

Since we usually traded-in a car, it wasn't easy to figure out what could be obtained off sticker for a new car in the late '60's/early '70's, but I do remember these couple of points:

1) The first GM rebates I'm aware of were on 1975 model cars, in Feb. of that year. The Chevy Monza 2+2 had a $500 rebate which was over 10% of base retail. I know this because I had two friends whose parents bought new Monzas during the rebate period. The one ordered a 4-cyl. but when it couldn't be delivered by the end of the month, bought a V8 instead to get the rebate. My friend wasn't exactly crestfallen about that.

2) I remember our new 1973 Nova, which was a popular model of the Number One nameplate at the time. Sticker was $2,625 including destination for a six, three-speed coupe. We were trading in a six, stick '67 Chevelle for which we got $550 trade. I remember at the time our salesman (there for decades) who offered Dad $400 off without trade. Dad didn't want the hassle of trying to sell a car so 'bit'. In other words, we were offered $400 off on a $2,625 sticker...well more than 10%.

My longtime coworker, a Ford guy, bought his first new car in '68--a Torino--and he and I have often said that, although not always, it seems like you got more off on a new car then than now, percentage-wise.

fezo · November 2012

OK. Sorry I overreacted. (BTW, if there is an actual ignore feature I'm un aware of it.) I just get so tired of the tone that gets going in here and no, you are not the only one - we could all name your #1 counterpart who is even more over the top.

It's too interesting a topic to ignore so I'll still be in here and, yes, Im still talking to you. Peace?

uplanderguy · November 2012

Peace.

I get so frustrated here too, but then...there's hardly anyone else in my 'real' world to talk cars with! LOL

andre1969 · November 2012

The real loser is the consumer, in states like MD you pay sales tax on the pre-rebate amount. At 6% here in MD, that means you pay an extra $180 in state sales tax just so GM can fudge their income statement to look better

Yep, that happened to me when I bought my Ram. I paid $1,347 in sales tax on my 2012 Ram. At 6%, that would mean a transaction price of $22,450. Yet the out the door price was only $20,751. I estimate the transaction price of the truck was around $18,200, after you subtract out the freight, tax, and other fees.

stever · November 2012

The new revolver provides a significant source of backup liquidity and financial flexibility, further bolstering our fortress balance sheet," said Dan Ammann, GM senior vice president and chief financial officer. "This level of commitment from the global banking community represents a strong vote of confidence in the financial strength of our company."

GM secures $11 billion line of credit (Detroit News)

tlong · November 2012

I know that this time your rude comment was not directed at me but it's the one that puts you over the top. You've made it to my ignore list.

I'll add that while everybody is usually polite here, there are snarky comments at times which appear to be thinly veiled insults. If we can criticize various brands, but not each other, it would be better.

uplanderguy · November 2012

I'll add that while everybody is usually polite here, there are snarky comments at times which appear to be thinly veiled insults

I've been on the receiving end of my share, but...some folks are just beggin' for it! LOL

dave8697 · November 2012

Drove around W.N.C. for a few hundred miles in a Sonic last weekend. I have no complaints about the car other than I hate windshields without rainx on them. About 38 mpg overall with no interstate miles. 10 inches of snow at Newfound Gap was unexpected. Caused by Sandy.

uplanderguy · November 2012

Hatch or sedan, and how was noise levels?

ateixeira · November 2012

I've been on the receiving end of my share

You have and that's because of the title of the thread.

I can say the hecklers here aren't quite as bad as the ones in the Toyota threads, though. Hit and run, too, so now that things are going well the hecklers have disappeared. Of course.

bpizzuti · November 2012

It's hardly "heckling" to point out legitimate issues with GM's models, marketing, or business model. Anyone why implies or claims that they are perfect deserves heckling, given the evidence that they aren't (perfect competitive and profitable companies don't need to be bailed out, don't go through bankruptcy, and don't need special tax deals). GM's got problems, and it's simply silly to say otherwise.

Now if you'll excuse me I'll go finish cleaning up after my hurricane. :shades:

ateixeira · November 2012

8 of the top 10 most reliable American cars are from GM:

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/11/top-10-most-reliable-american-cars.- html

Of course disregard completely because CR is totally biased. :P

Small cars: Chevrolet Sonic
Fuel-efficient hatchbacks: Chevrolet Volt
Compact sports sedans: Cadillac CTS
Upscale cars: Chrysler 300 (V6)
Sporty cars: Ford Mustang (V6)
Large SUVs: Chevrolet Traverse
Midsized SUVs: Chevrolet Equinox (V6)/GMC Terrain (V6)
Luxury SUVs: Buick Enclave
Full-sized pickups: Chevrolet Avalanche

Gotta tell my buddy who just invested $42 large on his Enclave, he'll be happy.

Heck, the neighbor who bought the used Traverse also!

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