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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    This is the Internet. Facts are completely irrelevant here. :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    bpizzuti, I've got to admit, you made me chuckle at that one. Thank you!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    You know, the ATS does look like a winning combination, able to steal some sales from MB, Audi and BMW (and some Japanese brands, too), especially for the folks that prefer to buy domestics (when they are available and competitive).

    I doubt the manual transmission characteristics will have much affect on sales, especially since so few BMW 3-series are sold with manuals anymore.... And, 3-series are selling better than ever...

    IMO, the real tests between Cadillac and BMW will be once the ATS is available in a 2-door coupe, and hopefully a metal drop-top convertible (although I've read conflicting reports on whether a convertible will ever be an option).

    ... lower cost to maintain, (not to mention it works fine without premium gas), and much better reliability.

    Other than the octane requirements, I don't know about that yet. I think the jury is still out on that one, and we'll have to wait and see how these aspects unfold over the next few years. In theory, costs to maintain should be less, since its a domestic model constructed of parts paid for in $$$, not Euros, as BMW, MB and Audi parts are paid for.

    So far, the car looks like exactly what GM needs to crack the sports-luxury market. Unless the dealer network somehow screws up the sales appeal, I think the ATS is going to do well.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    GM could also screw it up through platform sharing. Remember, BMW doesn't own any other makes to use their platform in, so it doesn't get "cheapened" by having a low-line version. GM, on the other hand, finds it impossible to keep a platform exclusive to anything. I think they need to keep the ATS platform exclusive for at least 3 years though and let it establish itself. If there's a Buick and a Chevy version, potential ATS buyers might be turned off (and yes, that might be snobby of them but that's a reality in the market segment the ATS plays in, it HAS to be factored in).
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited December 2012
    I forgot you are so sensitive. :)

    The Camaro is a great car and the sales are a success but GM(Chevrolet) F'd up the launch. Can YOU admit that? I posted the link regarding the ZL-1 incentives, remember? I didn't make that up. I remember you blaming Edmunds for that, though.

    The Volt is still costing more than it's investment. Can YOU call that a financial success?

    I agree it has proved itself as a good car to the current owners but under 28K-30K sales in 3 years vs. the R&D + Government subsidy? The jury is still working....sounds like the C-11 Government Management forced the taxpayers to pay for this...just sayin'!

    The precedent has been set by the Prius development/return formula. I know that's very difficult for you to agree. The Volt still needs to prove itself, afaic.

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    GM could also screw it up through platform sharing. Remember, BMW doesn't own any other makes to use their platform in, so it doesn't get "cheapened" by having a low-line version. GM, on the other hand, finds it impossible to keep a platform exclusive to anything. I think they need to keep the ATS platform exclusive for at least 3 years though and let it establish itself. If there's a Buick and a Chevy version, potential ATS buyers might be turned off (and yes, that might be snobby of them but that's a reality in the market segment the ATS plays in, it HAS to be factored in).

    I'm gonna disagree with your hypothesis on this one a bit. We wish GM would have such a problem that they have a legitimate 3-series beater, and then actually start making such good cars in the cheaper divisions. It's all about how similar the vehicles are to each other. They could use the same platform on a racy hatchback for Chevy that might have a cheaper interior than Caddy, and if so, that wouldn't really compete with the Caddy, even if quite a bit cheaper. But of course if they just rebadge (which I kind of doubt they would do), that would be bad. But GM's history has been rebadging the cheap cars for higher end (Cimmaron, Escalade as examples), not the other way around.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The precedent has been set by the Prius development/return formula. I know that's very difficult for you to agree. The Volt still needs to prove itself, afaic.

    The Volt is looking like a technical success with good reliability, which is already astonishing for GM and quite an accomplishment.

    However, the financial story is different and the ROI is a long way off, if it ever makes money. I guess you can do that when your rich uncle is covering your losses.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The type of buyer looking for a 3 series or an ATS, unlike those shopping for CR-Vs, Malibus, and Camrys, actually DO follow sites like this and WILL know if the platform is being shared or not. I think GM would be very wise to keep it exclusive for a while.

    Think of how Corvette fans would cry havoc if they used that platform to underpin a Buick. ;)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Now if Hyunkia was doing the Volt it would be smart upfront development costs toward future green vehicle investment, right?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Re: ATS platform sharing - I don't disagree with your position, but it does seem that if Lexus shares with Toyota or Audi with VW they often seem to get a pass compared to Detroit???
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Toyota shares truck platforms, but most Lexuses are RWD versus FWD Toyotas. Same with Nissan/Infiniti.

    Honda, on the other hand, is pretty bad about it. VW too. But notice Acura and Audi are generally NOT considered to be at the same level as Lexus, Infiniti, MB, and BMW?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,165
    I think the ES might be the most mocked platform share-r out there.

    Honda and VW both seem to just not care about being obvious about it. Some hide it better.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But notice Acura and Audi are generally NOT considered to be at the same level as Lexus, Infiniti, MB, and BMW?

    A European co-worker told me a number of years ago that Audi WAS considered the equal of BMW, at least in Europe. I suspect the US perception was due to the unintended accel publicity on the 5000 - which of course was not a real issue with the car.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Infiniti always strikes me as a local market thing - some rate them right up there in lux, while others seem to equate them more as high priced Nissans. Not sure why the seeming disparity on that make compared to some others, maybe it's a dealer thing?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    not a real issue with the car

    I'm not inclined to believe the car wasn't at fault. There were six recalls and a special service campaign to address the floor mats, lack of a shift interlock and pedal positions. There were 1500 sudden acceleration accidents reported and more than 400 people were injured when their Audi 5000s sped out of control in the United States. Seven people died.

    The Swedish blamed the SUA wrecks in their country on bad solder joints in the cruise control. (Audi Sudden Acceleration and The Multinational)

    What's amazing is that the brand still suffers from those perceptions almost 30 years later.

    That never happens with GM cars. :shades:
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Sometimes I think the issue that really holds both VW and Audi back is their dealer network. They seem to have a reputation as over complicated vehicles that are costly to maintain and repair, combined with indifferent at best dealerships.

    I hadn't heard about the solder theory. One thing that probably contributed was that the 5000 was pretty quick, so a pedal mix up would become a big issue in a real hurry.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    Who knows what the truth is; most of them were probably driver error. But it's too easy to blame CBS (or NBC in the case of side saddle gas tank issues on GM pickups or whoever did the hatchet job on Explorer rollovers by blowing up a tire) when the sheer number of incidents says there likely was more to it than dumb drivers.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    IIRC the Audi 5000 also built up a rather poor reputation for mechanical and quality issues (as did the prior model), so that may also have contributed to buyer reluctance toward the brand.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    edited December 2012
    Chevrolet's website did not show an incentive for the ZL-1, remember? It's not so hard to admit that. I remember posting e-Bay listings here, where people were paying thousands over sticker for ZL-1's then.

    It's very much like you to focus on the Prius when we were discussing Volt vs. Leaf.

    To me, 'lousy launch' means, among other things but at the top of the list, that sales never took off like intended. Certainly not the case with the Camaro.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No, wrong! :) Same goes for the Hyunderwear folks! Upfront development cost are a harbinger for future subsidies, particularly at GM.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Your view is EXACTLY why Caddy will never be the "Standard of the World" for luxury/performance automobiles. 2nd class for Caddy, I'm afraid.

    Exclusivety means no sharing! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    That never happens with GM cars.

    Because GM really hasn't made great cars for the last 30 years? Ya think??

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The sales did take off but the launch issues were horrendous, remember?

    So your take on the Volt launch, at the top of you list, spells failure, right? Sales definately did NOT "Take Off"!

    I posted Edmunds incentives on the ZL-1. Could they really be wrong? Desperate people paying thousands more than sticker leave incentives for the cheapskates! :) You know with GM, sooner or later huge incentives will arrive.

    Why pay more? :P

    Regards,
    OW
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,151
    >Swedish blamed the SUA wrecks in their country on bad solder joints in the cruise control.

    They should have had a superficial study by NASA of their cruise controls and they could have absolved them of all responsibility! :) No electronics problems here folks. NASA doesn't have much to do now that the space shuttle program was canceled. :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    That never happens with GM cars.

    Because GM really hasn't made great cars for the last 30 years? Ya think?

    No, I don't think so. I think it's because people like me get a bad car and never forget or forgive. Two unreliable '74 Volvos ruined me on the brand and I never shop them. Intellectually dishonest but there you go.

    But I don't go to the Volvo forums and try to drag the brand down with every post, adding nothing to the conversation.

    If I actually had wound up in a 740 wagon back in the early 90s, I'd probably still be driving it, and loving it. My alternative choice back in the 80s in lieu of minivans would have been a Suburban. Those things are real haulers.

    What say we get the discussion back to GM News, like what new models are coming out and how many they are selling? Make a good New Year's resolution for us. :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Well, they're selling the SS. Which in some circles was known as the Pontiac G8. But that's not possible because GM has never moved a model to another brand when they shut that brand down. :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    Please let me know where I can buy an SS. They don't seem to be for sale around here. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    "GM reported it sold 186,505 vehicles in November, up from 139,520 a year earlier and 4.7% below October's total of 195,764. The company said its large pickup truck sales fell 8% from a year earlier, which it blamed on strong competition.

    Its Chevrolet sales were flat while GMC sales increased 1.2%. Buick sales grew 22% and Cadillac sales jumped 30%. Sales of GM passenger cars rose 19% in November, crossovers were up 9% and sales of trucks overall were down 11%."

    Sales Rise for GM, Ford, Chrysler (Wall St. Journal)

    Similar story at the Free Press
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    But I don't go to the Volvo forums and try to drag the brand down with every post, adding nothing to the conversation.

    GM drags themselves down very well on their own. :P

    GM -0.97% shares shed 0.9% after the auto maker reported November sales rose 3.4%, compared with analysts’ estimate of 5.5%.

    At GM, sales of the Cruze were up 27 percent, but at 16,807 sold, the car fell behind Ford's Focus for the month. The Cruze dominated small car sales in September and was a close No. 3 behind Toyota's Corolla and Honda's Civic last month, but in both cases, GM had sold large numbers to car rental fleets, not retail consumers.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    'Please let me know where I can buy an SS. They don't seem to be for sale around here. '

    And it appears quite unlikely
    that the SS will be a G8.
    - Ray
    Former G8 driver.....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    3.4% increase for GM is pretty good considering the tsunami was still causing shortages for some competition last year.

    I'm surprised they grew at all.

    Caddy being up 30% is fantastic news. ATS must be well received.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.insideline.com/ford/escape/2013/2013-ford-escape-and-fusion-recalled-- for-fire-risk.html

    The 1.6l EcoBoost, and this is one of those "park it" style recalls, which are a bit embarassing.

    Affects both the Fusion and the Escape.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/01/buick-verano-nails-five-star-safety-rating-fr- om-nhtsa/

    5 stars on NCAP crash tests, but only 4 for rollover? That's a surprise, not like it's a tall crossover or anything.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-30/ex-gm-engineer-husband-found-guilty-of-- trade-secrets-theft-1-.html

    Now folks here might listen more closely when I say they have to tread carefully with all those "Joint Ventures" in China...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    When I think of hybrid technology (excluding the Volt), GM isn't the first car company that comes to mind.

    But your point is well made. It's usually cheaper and more efficient to steal technology than to create it...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    There'll be a "hot time" in the ole Fusion tonite!

    Embarrassing... Indeed!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,165
    And some out there would explain that away as just being a "cultural difference". Surprised they didn't just willingly give the info away though, it is practically a requirement of the joint ventures there.

    Longterm consequences from short term profits.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    With so much automotive equipment/parts/pieces being made off-shore nowadays, it doesn't seem like technology would be too difficult to decode and reproduce if someone was willing to exert just a small amount of effort.

    Add into that equation a society that doesn't have the same "understanding and respect" of intellectual property and ideas, and it seems the theft of technology is practically an issue of "when", not "if".

    Chasing $$$'s seems to always trump common sense. In this case, short-term profits rule over intellectual property.

    Who could have seen it coming??? (Sarcasm emphasized...)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Chevy will be happy to build you one....if you can afford it. ;)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited December 2012
    I can guarantee, though, that the ATS will cost a lot less in upkeep.

    Highly doubtful in my view.

    But it's also a lot harsher riding

    The reviews I've read say the ATS is harsher than the BMW's.

    and you have to flog the poor things to death

    I've never heard of a BMW being flogged to death. Do you mean to say if you drive a Caddy hard it'll die? Seems to me a lot here feel that the domestics have to be babied and driven like a typical 94 year old average slow driver in order to last.

    Except for the better warranty,

    You mean the warranty that wouldn't have been honored if Bush and Obama didn't gift billions and billions of OUR money to funding replacement parts for :lemon: vehicles?

    lower cost to maintain

    again, highly doubtful.

    not to mention it works fine without premium gas), and much better reliability.

    every modern car works "fine" without premium gas. Doesn't mean you'll get the advertised mileage and/or horsepower without premium octane.

    and much better reliability.

    Not from the history of Cadillac I've heard about.

    GM makes among the best automatics in the world, though

    Do they even make a dual clutch DSG performance automated automatic transmission yet?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Sometimes I think the issue that really holds both VW and Audi back is their dealer network. They seem to have a reputation as over complicated vehicles that are costly to maintain and repair, combined with indifferent at best dealerships.

    I've heard of bad VW dealerships. I've never heard anyone say anything bad about an Audi dealership. Most of the dealerships are separated now, even the one's that were previously combined in my county are now all separated.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The Swedish blamed the SUA wrecks in their country on bad solder joints in the cruise control. (Audi Sudden Acceleration and The Multinational)

    Guarantee 99.9 percent of the Swedes blaming SUA on the car had a lot of stock in automaker's that were competitors to Audi (or worked for a competitor).

    How does shift interlock and pedal positions have anything to do with blaming the car? You still have to blame the driver. Or did the pedals miraculously and mysteriously move and change positions between the purchase date and the crash date?>??????? ???? :sick: :cry:

    You must be one of the jurors that awarded millions for coffee being hot at McDonald's.... well, duh!!! Coffee's supposed to be hot; not spilled on yourself!
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Caddy being up 30% is fantastic news. ATS must be well received.

    Great, then GM should be able to put a new Cruze LTZ in every taxpayer's/company owner's driveway this Christmas, as they should be able to afford it given their stellar sales performance and business management as of late .... :sick:

    Then everyone can sell their newly found tax dividend and tax rebate in January, thereby plummeting the resale value of Chevy, but in turn using those funds to buy GM stock, thereby allowing a "break-even" sale of the stock.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Highly doubtful in my view.
    I can guarantee it. The body is built in Canada, while the engine is from Germany. The issue with German cars is that they all source from the same few electronics suppliers due to age-old contracts and huge tariffs and markups if they use non-German parts.

    VW, Mercedes, BMW, Audi. The weak link is always the electronics and accessories. The engines are great, though. As is the styling. But the parts and repairs are a world more expensive than even Lexus.

    and you have to flog the poor things to death
    You have to beat both cars to death to get a noticeable difference between the two, they are so close to each other. That's test-track territory. In normal driving, it apparently is like driving twins. And, yes, GM tends to put higher profile tires on their cars so they DO tend to ride a bit softer and nicer in normal driving.

    Except for the better warranty,
    GM has had that 100K warranty since before the bailout. If the reliability of the CTS shows anything, it's that the ATS is likely to be similarly good.

    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Cadillac_ATS/Reliability/
    That rating, for a *GM* car, is almost from another planet. It's way ahead of a typical German car.
    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/BMW_3-Series/Reliability/
    A bit worse, as expected. Add in parts and labor cost differences, and it's a clear win for GM this time. Maybe not next time, or, well, hardly ever in the past, but certainly true for the CTS and ATS.

    Do they even make a dual clutch DSG performance automated automatic transmission yet?
    Actually I was being nice. GM makes the *best* automatics. DSG is just more crap to break. I suppose if you plan on taking it to the track on weekends, you'd care. Otherwise, I happen to like plain and lower cost to repair standard automatics. The one in the CTS is superb, actually. I can't imagine that the ATS uses a different automatic transmission, given how many parts the cars share.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You must be one of the jurors that awarded millions for coffee being hot at McDonald's

    Sure, Mickey Dees was warned multiple times that their scalding coffee was dangerous. You could look it up.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Really, does anyone NOT understand that scalding hot coffee (or any other liquid) can severely burn someone?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,685
    Really, does anyone NOT understand that scalding hot coffee (or any other liquid) can severely burn someone?

    You would think that. BUT. This is America, after all, where common sense isn't so common.

    However, I think the McDonald's coffee was a special case, because they brewed it at higher temperatures than what most other places do. So it would burn you much more severely than if the waitress at Denny's or IHOP tripped and poured a pot of coffee on your crotch, for example.

    I've never had McDonald's coffee, but I've heard that because it was brewed at a higher temperature, it was supposed to taste better. Dunno if that's truth or simply marketing, though.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited December 2012
    Really, does anyone NOT understand that scalding hot coffee (or any other liquid) can severely burn someone?

    That's why I've never put a cup of coffee between my legs while leaving a drive thru!!!

    When I was about 12, I went with my dad to pick up a pizza. I had shorts on and held the pizza on my lap. The pizza was in a paper bag, and since I was sitting at an angle, the cheese and sauce leaked through the paper and onto my thigh. I received 2nd degree burns on my thigh and nearly 30 years later I still have scars. Did my parents sue? Hell no, my mom took me to the doctor, I was treated, and we moved on. Sure it hurt like hell, and I ended up throwing the pizza all over the seat and floor of my dads car;) I guess we should have sued so I could be living the good life because my dad and I probably made a poor choice in my holding freshly cooked pizza on my lap.

    I understand the Mcdonalds case was severe. IIRC, the woman injured was hospitalized and required surgery etc. So I do believe she was entitled to some type of compensation for her medical bills etc and Mcdonalds was likely wrong to dispense such hot coffee.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    They kept it scalding because it would stay "fresher" longer. And it injured more people than the granny.

    The only problem with the McDonald's case is that the judge lowered the damages award. I guess the judge felt the high powered plaintiff's lawyer really snowed those poor dumb jurors like me, and the McDonald's lawyer that just passed the bar did a lousy job of defending Ronald. :P

    The rest of y'all can depend on consumer protection agencies and corporate goodwill to save your skin; I'll call my lawyer if some GM defect injures me. Especially if it's a known defect that the company chose to ignore because it's cheaper to pay a few plaintiffs instead of paying more to fix the defect. Think Pinto and Ford's risk/benefit analysis that determined it was cheaper to let people die instead of redesigning the gas tank.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There are ladders with "STOP" written on the top rung. :D

    'nuf said.
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