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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    8:21AM EST December 4. 2012 - As embarrassments go, Ford Motor couldn't face a worse recall than one that wraps together two critical 2013 vehicles and a technology that it has spent the most time and money trying to burnish: Fusion sedan, Escape crossover and the EcoBoost turbocharged engine.

    Yet on Monday Ford was at a loss to explain why the 1.6-liter EcoBoost engine in two big-selling models was overheating and might catch fire — or how it plans to fix the 89,153 vehicles involved. Ford is urging owners to park their vehicles, contact their dealers and arrange for loaners.

    So far, 12 fires were reported in the Escapes and one in the Fusion, which just went on sale, says Ford spokesman Said Deep. No injuries were reported.

    What's more, the latest recall marks the fourth for the Escape since last spring. One involved a swatch of carpet that could block the gas pedal. The others all involved the same 1.6-liter, four-cylinder engine, including a recent recall because of coolant leaking from a freeze plug.

    That track record now has some asking whether the automaker, which has tried hard to burnish the reputation of the Ford nameplate under CEO Alan Mulally, has gone astray.

    "It does beg the question: 'Does Ford have a serious quality problem?' " says George Cook, executive professor of marketing at the Simon Graduate School of Business at the University of Rochester and a former Ford marketing executive.

    Consumer Reports recently dropped Ford to second-to-last place in its annual reliability survey. Only two years ago, Ford was in the top 10. Ford has created so many all-new products that the kinks haven't been worked out of many of them, lsays Jake Fisher, head of the non-profit magazine's automotive test division.

    The Ford brand has had 92 recalls since 2009, substantially higher than the next highest brands — Chevrolet, at 70, and Toyota, at 68, a search of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database reveals. Of course, such a search doesn't take into account the severity of individual recalls or that the Ford nameplate is part of the larger Ford Motor. When recalls in its various divisions are added up, General Motors outpaces Ford on recalls overall.

    It hurts even more that the problems involve 73,320 Escapes and 15,833 Fusions. In launching the new Escape this year, Ford said the two models compete in segments that make up 30% of all sales.

    With fuel economy a top consideration, Ford has heavily touted its EcoBoost engines — and is bringing them to 90% of its models. Though the recall is "just isolated to that engine," the 1.6-liter, Ford fears the recall "might tarnish the entire line of engines," says Mike Omotoso, senior manager of global powertrain for LMC Automotive.

    Continuing to build a product that catches fire at will, without having any idea why that product explodes in flames, seems like a poor business decision, especially as the manufacturer tells existing owners to park their vehicles and stop driving them.

    And, seeing as how 2 cars bursts into flames while still at the assembly plant, it must not take much to create the condition that causes the fire...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    If ICE cars were introduced today, the regulators probably wouldn't let them on the highway. Imagine carrying around an incendiary device in your trunk.

    Naturally GM has a better idea. :-)

    General Motors Looking to the Future with Natural Gas (Motley Fool)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Actually, cars were the first big examples of a "green" product. For fuel they used a to-that-point useless by-product of the production of kerosene. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    Horse hockey!

    (and mule hockey and ox hockey and all the other hockey filling up the streets ;))
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Continuing to build a product that catches fire at will, without having any idea why that product explodes in flames, seems like a poor business decision, especially as the manufacturer tells existing owners to park their vehicles and stop driving them.

    Explodes into flames might be a bit incendiary - don't you think? :D

    Automakers do this all the time. They continue to build even with problems and then go back and fix them.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Automakers do this all the time. They continue to build even with problems and then go back and fix them.

    Didn't GM invent that strategy? Or was it Ford or Chrysler???? :sick:

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    Didn't GM invent that strategy? Or was it Ford or Chrysler????

    Well, in 1958, Chrysler designed some little crimps into the exhaust ports of the DeSotos, so that if one refused to start as it left the assembly line, it could be pushed by the one behind it, without fear of damage to the bumpers!

    So, the cars not only had the "Forward Look", but also had "Forward Thinking" :P
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Explodes into flames might be a bit incendiary - don't you think?

    New marketing strategy - "Now, with the first external combustion engine.".....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    "Instantly Escape From All Your Worldly Problems!" KABOOM!!!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited December 2012
    http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2012/12/2013-cadillac-ats-and-so-it-begins- - .html

    My suspicion: The 2013 Cadillac ATS's ambitious CUE infotainment system was fast-tracked into production and side-stepped usability engineering. It makes MyFordTouch look comparatively excellent.

    My prediction: CUE will be deservedly skewered here and elsewhere for its slow response to touch, poor indexing (correspondence to where it is touched), intermittent outright crashing (pictured), illogical menus, pagination and interface, and so on. Just one night in the car and I experienced all of these. Sorry to start the blog like this for such a highly anticipated and needed vehicle, but boy, this feels so beta that it should never have made it to market in this state.

    Why am I not surprised?

    This is not the first time I've read about such complaints.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    Hm, lost the link but the review I read liked CUE better than My Touch.

    But that reviewer thought Chrysler's "simpler" interface that included dials and buttons was the best implementation of telematics so far.

    And the reviewer took a shot at BMW and their early iDrive stuff.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    If they keep going like this they may as well just provide iPhone and Android docks, and write apps for both platforms.

    They may be better off doing that anyway....
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited December 2012
    I think myself and others might be a lot more forgiving if this was the first significant issue Ford had with the vehicle. Clearly, it's been a problem-filled launch on the product.

    And, I take no issue with the continued building of said product, as long as the product being constructed doesn't contain the specific engine prone to catch fire. After all, there are other engine options than don't seem to burst into flames.

    As for the comment being a bit incendiary (great pun!), ask the guy it happened to on the highway.

    One buyer complained to NHTSA that he had already gone through three recall repairs on his 2013 Escape and was driving on the freeway near Charlottesville, Va., when a pop came from the engine. The engine temperature light came on, steam, then oily smoke poured from the engine and it burst into flames.

    From a PR perspective, this is turning into a nightmare for Ford. If they keep it up, they may get a Vega on their hands, publicity-wise.

    And, I ask once more. When the problem manifests itself inside the assembly plant, just how difficult could it be (or should it be) to isolate the cause(s), seeing as how you can't get any closer to the "expertise" that designed and built the product?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    I don't like touchscreens, even if they work well (and most don't seem to come close). Fingerprints.

    I can deal with less than intuitive mouse/wheel style controllers.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'd rather they use old school switches, buttons, knobs, and levers.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    How about we replace your steering wheel with a tiller, too?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited December 2012
    Didn't GM use a CRT based touch screen in the late 80's Riviera? IIRC, Motortrend or C&D had one for a long term test and it was full of gremlins. And that was the car, the CRT was problematic too;)
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    How about we replace your steering wheel with a tiller, too?
    LOL
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, there was a weird guy in my old neighbohood who had one of those Rivieras with the GCC, (Graphic Control Center). I don't recall if the one in his car was burnt-out or not. GM soon replaced it with conventional controls.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    I dunno how I'd feel about a touch screen, as I've never used one other than limited fumbling around on an iPad or iPhone. But I'd worry about scratches, fingerprints, reliability, etc.

    As for buttons, knobs, levers, etc, I don't mind, just as long as they make the setup simple, intuitive, and so that you don't have to take your eyes off the road for any longer than necessary. I'm not so crazy about the controls of my 2000 Park Ave, because it has a bunch of look-alike buttons, and is mounted low enough that I have to take my eyes off the road to see what I'm doing. My old Intrepid, and the current Ram, have the fairly simple, generic 3-dial setup where one dial controls the temp, one controls the fan, and the other controls the various functions.

    I actually liked the old 1970's and 80's GM setup where you just got one lever for fan speed, one for temperature, and other for the various functions. That one, I can easily control just by feel.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    One of these days it'll all be voice activated and the info will be displayed on augmented reality windshields.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I've got Ford MyTouch and with the most recent update, the performance has improved greatly. The voice activated feature works for the most part - I think the problem is mainly me because I have never sat down and RTFM.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    lol, who does?

    Good news though about the My Touch.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My 2007 Cadillac DTS has a touch screen. It's pretty simple and intuitive to use. No problems with scratches, but it does get finger-printed up a bit. I wipe it down with a microfiber cloth with no ill effects.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Andre - you need to check out the new Lincoln MKZ - it comes with a push button transmission! You'd feel right at home - like your DeSoto was back!

    If I were Ford I certainly wouldn't want to remind people of their history with the push button tranny. I think the 58 Edsel was the only one.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    Mercury used a pushbutton transmission for a couple years as well, like maybe 1957-58? IIRC though, the Mercury selector was on the dash and purely mechanical, so it was fairly reliable, as was the Mopar setup. However, the Edsel's was mounted in the center of the steering wheel, like the buttons on Speed Racer's Mach 5. And it was an electro-mechanical setup that was much more troubleprone.

    Edsel dropped the pushbutton setup for 1959, so I guess Mercury did, as well?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Didn't dodge use a push button gear select in something like a Fury and a few other models?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Mopars started with a dash mounted lever in 55 (sound familiar in today's crossovers?), then went push button from 56 until around 64.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    Actually, all Chrysler product cars started using pushbuttons for their automatic transmissions in 1956, and they would be the norm through 1964, although some sporty models, such as the 1960 300F, could be had with a console shift I believe.

    The government made them standardize shift patterns for 1965, and that forced Chrysler to go to column shifts. Also, the early pushbuttons did not have a provision for "Park". You simply left it in gear, or put it in neutral, and then put on the handbrake. I think they were also originally equipped with a wedge, made out of either wood or plastic, that you could place under a wheel if you were parked on a hill.

    In 1960, when the lightweight Torqueflite 904 came out for use in the compact cars, they added a separate lever that you'd push to put the car in Park. I think this was added to cars with the bigger transmission for 1962.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I've thought all along Ford went into Turbo's too all or nothing (maybe they were forced by limited resources?). Turbo's can have some unique driving traits and the high pressure in the past has sometimes led to shorter drive train life. I think they should have also put a little money into bringing the 2.5L 4 banger up to today's Asian standards so they had some flexibility here.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I've got Ford MyTouch and with the most recent update, the performance has improved greatly. The voice activated feature works for the most part - I think the problem is mainly me because I have never sat down and RTFM.

    My '05 TL has voice activation and I can control the nav, climate control, phone, and audio system by voice. I find that I do dialing on the phone by voice, and a few nav searches by voice fairly frequently ("Find nearest fast food", "Find nearest gas station"), but I rarely do the other functions. I find the radio functions a bit error prone, and it's just easier to reach over and push the temp up/down buttons than to try and speak the temp or tell it to turn off the AC.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Also, the early pushbuttons did not have a provision for "Park". You simply left it in gear, or put it in neutral, and then put on the handbrake. I think they were also originally equipped with a wedge, made out of either wood or plastic, that you could place under a wheel if you were parked on a hill.

    Yeah, our 57 Plymouth had no Park. Our 61 Valiant did.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    My '05 TL has voice activation and I can control the nav, climate control, phone, and audio system by voice. I find that I do dialing on the phone by voice, and a few nav searches by voice fairly frequently ("Find nearest fast food", "Find nearest gas station"), but I rarely do the other functions. I find the radio functions a bit error prone, and it's just easier to reach over and push the temp up/down buttons than to try and speak the temp or tell it to turn off the AC.

    Same with my '10 328i.

    The problem is, at least for me, there are far too many commands to remember, so it's simply easier to use the iDrive controller.

    The voice radio control works really well, but I can iDrive it faster than I can say the voice command that selects the station.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,094
    I'd rather they use old school switches, buttons, knobs, and levers.

    Good grief, me too. They're intuitive. The other schlock is to massage somebody's ego IMHO.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,094
    My best man had an '88 (I think) Riv with the touch-screen. Conventional wisdom was that they were trouble-prone, but he insisted he never had any issues with it (drove it for probably ten years). I just didn't like it as it seemed so 'gadgety' to me.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Intuitive: what you're used to.

    Newfangled, complicated error-prone useless shlocky unnecessary gadgetry: what your kids are used to.

    That look that you have right now is the same one your kids give you when you lecture them about how they don't need a phone that can talk and give directions through their car stereo. :shades:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited December 2012
    Technology gone wrong though.... B of A ATM's, yes, you don't need to use envelopes for deposits, but dang, it takes at least 5 times longer to do anything and everything compared to 80's era ATM's.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    For those thinking Ford would get a free pass:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/06/consumer-reports-calls-out-ford-for-false-fus- ion-c-max-h/
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,094
    edited December 2012
    I know they're supposed to be great-driving vehicles, but I just cannot like the current Ford 'fish mouth' grille styling.

    I worked in Pittsburgh with a fellow who also has an '11 Malibu (his is an LTZ though). Like me, he only likes the rear-view of the current car better than his. I like the look and feel of the interior of the new car better, but dislike the shorter wheelbase. Again, I'd sure think there was an SAE standard for measuring interior space, but maybe not, since the Malibu is reported to have two inches more in the rear than Sonata.

    I'm 5'8" and I sat in one in front, where I'd place the seat, then sat in back and I had room. If my wife and I needed a new car, I'd have her check out the space front and rear and see what she'd say, although she's four inches shorter than me. I'm thinking there could be some good buys on the current Malibu soon. I look for that kind of thing.

    I'm quite interested in the next Impala, although don't see myself buying a new car for a long while yet.

    Someone mentioned inventories of Fusion versus Malibu. I think one doesn't have to be an auto analyst to know that there'd be more Malibus than Fusions, as the Fusion is just a recent rollout. The Malibu has been out for what, eight months?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    I liked the new Fusion when I first started seeing pictures of it, partly because that front-end reminded me a bit of a '57-59 Chrysler 300 Letter Series. But, when I finally saw one in person, it just had a sort of blandness about it.

    As for legroom, I honestly have no idea how they measure it, but I'm sure it's some kind of combination of the fore-aft room, plus, how high the seat is off the floor. So, two cars could have, say, 38 inches of published legroom, but if one has a seat that's high off the floor, but not that much fore-aft room, it's going to feel cramped. But, if the seat is too low, you're not going to have much thigh support.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Sometimes i think each vehicle measures legroom differently. There have been vehicles that looked meager in the specs, but fit my tall frame fine, while others were the reverse. One thing I have found consistent is that Toyota's with a sunroof generally lack head room if you're tall. Gotta pimp drive them with the seat back reclined or otherwise move on to something else.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The Malibu has only been out for 8 months because GM rushed they hybrid version out the door so it wouldn't look like Nissan's Altima caught them flat-footed (as if no one figured that out). Realistically the entire Malibu line has been out not much longer than the Fusion.

    However, it's looking like the Altima and the upcoming Accord and Mazda6 are going to dominate for a while. Malibu's a disappointment, and the Fusion is suffering from QA gremlins. Hyundai's little EPA faux pas will hurt Sonata sales some. It's SO easy to lose market share due to a misstep in the midsize category.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It's SO easy to lose market share due to a misstep in the midsize category.

    ...and much harder to gain it back sometimes
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    For those thinking Ford would get a free pass

    I'm sure it's only because CU is biased and hates on US nameplates. :P ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,094
    edited December 2012
    Not talking specifically about CR, but I think to say there hasn't been a general bias towards imports by writers over the past thirty years is not keepin' it real. Classic example: Dustbuster vans' high-mounted taillights mocked; nearly-identical units in Volvo praised; pull-out/push-in light switch mocked as anachronistic in a GM; praised in an import. Those are two that I remember quite specifically, although the import in the last example escapes my memory.

    Also, raves about tactile 'feel' of switches, etc., but mentions of domestic advantages in price, interior space, trunk space, choice of models and trim levels, downplayed back then or not mentioned at all. Those were very real advantages whether one particular writer cared about them or not.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited December 2012
    I believe so. Also, pickup sales along with Camaro dissapoint....

    Car unit sales were pretty good, though some standouts included the Volt (up 303.4%), the Corvette (up 21.2%), and the Buick Enclave (up 22.8%). However, unit sales of the Camaro dipped 12.9%, while SUV unit sales were down pretty much across the board. We expect this trend to continue as crossover and small SUV sales cannibalize sales of the more profitable likes of the Tahoe and Suburban.

    Pickup sales were poor, with the Colorado diving 33% year-over-year (even without competition from the Ford Ranger), while the Silverado fell 10%. Competition from Ford and Toyota (NYSE: TM) seems to be eroding Chevrolet’s pickup market share, and we do not see the trend reversing itself in the near term. Further, days sales of inventory for trucks sits at 139—nearly double what the company is targeting. Although truck sales should see a nice bounce from the Sandy aftermath, we won’t like the profitability outlook until the company cleans up its inventory. We remain on the sidelines.

    Poor GM. Everyone is loosing faith. What's going on? :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The Traverse/Acadia is a decent vehicle, they really need to figure out how to make money off of that one. Tahoe needs to go, it's a niche now. Frankly so is Suburban, but that's a niche no one else really serves, and it's mostly a Silverado HD anyway.

    The reason those BOF SUVs are so profitable is because there is little to no development to them. Under the skin they're modified Silverados. Not necessarily criticism: that's how most companies would build a BOF SUV. The problem is that BOF SUVs are not the vehicle of choice for the masses anymore, and that's not going to change with $4/gal gas.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,094
    edited December 2012
    I'll agree that the 2013 Malibu launch, now eight months or so in, appears to be a failure...unlike the Camaro's, with strong sales right out of the box.

    Someone mentioned the Traverse, above. I saw a new one at our dealer last time I was there, and I think the new grille (a la '14 Impala style...top of headlights and grille at same level) is a big, big improvement.

    If Chevy incorporated that look into more lines, I think it'd be a plus. I'm reminded of the front end of the '79 Impala...a 'low profile' look and one line straight across the top of the headlights and grille. I like it.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,094
    edited December 2012
    Realistically the entire Malibu line has been out not much longer than the Fusion.

    This is a no-brainer, but I'm guessing you haven't spent much time at a Chevy dealer's of late.

    They had pretty significant inventory of the Eco Malibus, eight months ago. I just saw my first Fusion (I actually typed 'Focus' first, the looks remind me of each other) about six weeks ago. About three months ago I first saw non-Eco Malibus on dealer lots, and at that point they outnumbered Eco models significantly in stock...if perhaps only at the two dealers I looked at.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,094
    Since I just mentioned the Traverse, I was reminded of the very recent X5 recall:

    http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2009-12-bmw-x5-recall-delivery-stoppage-ordered.- html
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
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