GM News, New Models and Market Share

andres3 · December 2012

Do you know how heavy all the Camaro's are? That alone substantiates my statement.

The ZL-1 may be the lone exception, I haven't researched that one much, but then again, how long has it been out? From the one review I did see, I'm guessing they trimmed some of the pork out of that model.

andres3 · December 2012

Hahaha... well, rumor is it was a rental V6 Camaro, but still, you'd expect it to survive a track weekend in tact.

I think the track tow truck was nice enough to tow him 100' off the property onto the street so that Hertz wouldn't raise a flag.

tlong · December 2012

And if you can say, 'well, OW has made positive comments about GM', I'd sincerely ask you to read his last, say, twenty-five posts and get back to me on the balance there.

To me, a Corvette owner is almost always a middle-aged man of lower sophistication who wants a muscle car to show his continuing virility. He often is wearing gold chains, too. he can afford to get a less-sophisticated raw-power muscle car as the "entry-level" to powerful sports cars.

And by the way, this is the perfect description of my next door neighbor with, yes, a red Corvette.

If a woman, she's a cougar trying to live a younger life.

I guess we each have our own stereotypes.

andres3 · December 2012

I see probably 10 Corvettes for every Camaro at the track weekends, maybe even a higher ratio.

To be fair, I probably see about the same low ratio in regards to Mustangs (though it was a Boss/special type). Also saw on Challenger, so it seems 1 of each shows up.

bpizzuti · December 2012

How many Subies? Probably mostly BRZs, Rexes, STIs, and the odd GT/XT turbo model.

When I see Cruzes on tracks I'll think GM's taking the compact car market seriously. There needs to be a Cruze SS.

uplanderguy · December 2012

My stereotype of BMW drivers (not you, busiris) is darting in and out of traffic while talking on the cell phone, at unsafe speeds. Also, the kind that thinks they are enlightened and that other people, aren't. My B-I-L fits this stereotype. Benz owners are status-seekers IMHO (not you, fintail).

Just yesterday, during our first serious snowfall of the year, I witnessed a driver of a larger BMW run a stop sign and nearly get t-boned, while the pedestrian car that nearly hit him (so 'pedestrian' I can't even tell you at this point what it was) just laid on the horn.

tlong · December 2012

My stereotype of BMW drivers (not you, busiris) is darting in and out of traffic while talking on the cell phone, at unsafe speeds. Also, the kind that thinks they are enlightened and that other people, aren't. My B-I-L fits this stereotype. Benz owners are status-seekers IMHO (not you, fintail).

Funny, I like sport/luxury smaller cars with very high interior quality. So of course that takes me to brands like Audi. I owned an A4 a few years back and loved that car, except for the cost to repair. I'm driving an Acura TL right now, which has had nearly flawless Japanese reliability but is a bit bigger than I like, and a bit softer than I like.

I've been eyeing the C-Class MB as I love the lines on the current model. Was thinking of trying to find a slightly used one, preferably with a manual! The leather interiors smell wonderful and the cockpit just cradles you. Not like the run of the mill sedans. There is a big difference. Even I worry about getting an MB, first for maintenance costs, and second for the image. I don't want the image, I just like that type of vehicle.

There isn't much in the US nameplates that fit that mold. I may take a look at the ATS, but there aren't going to be any used ones yet, and I'm not paying $50K to get any vehicle.

It seems that our brand preferences mirror the strengths of each brand and our personal likes. If you like soft, large sedan - you go large US metal (lemko); if you like low cost, value, you go somewhere like GM or Ford (you), if you like small, quality/sporty you go Audi/MB/maybe Mazda (like me), etc. So really each of us in our own way is "rational" based upon our personal vehicle type preferences.

busiris · December 2012

To me, a Corvette owner is almost always a middle-aged man of lower sophistication who wants a muscle car to show his continuing virility. He often is wearing gold chains, too.

Do you live in Key West?

I ask, because the last time I was down there (around 5-6 years ago), that was a perfect description of every Corvette driver I saw.... Not that there were tons of Corvettes there, though.

Here in upstate SC, its rare to see any driver wearing gold chains nowadays, regardless of make. I guess the "new" must have worn off by now...

busiris · December 2012

My stereotype of BMW drivers (not you, busiris) is darting in and out of traffic while talking on the cell phone, at unsafe speeds. Also, the kind that thinks they are enlightened and that other people, aren't. My B-I-L fits this stereotype. Benz owners are status-seekers IMHO (not you, fintail).

Oh, I agree. I just wouldn't limit it to the BMW brand. I see the same behavior here with Lexus, Audi and MB drivers. Several years ago I would have also included Volvo drivers, but once Ford got ahold of Volvo, the owner dynamics seems to have changed.

If you drop the "I'm socially better than you" part of the description, I would say I see a lot of that the of driver in any car model that's marketed as any type of "driver's car". I think these folks somehow think that driving a performance-style car translates into a "performance-ability" driver.

imidazol97 · December 2012

GM workers can expect bonuses of between $5,500 and $7,000, and Fords employees could receive a payment of more than $8,000 each, according to a report in The Wall Street Journal. The payments are based on a formula that gives workers a $1 bonus for every $1 million in North American operating profit at the two companies.

Read more: Workers at GM, Ford to Score Nice Bonuses This Year - 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/2012/12/21/workers-at-gm-ford-to-score-nice-bonuses-this-ye- ar/#ixzz2FonO3cvc

bpizzuti · December 2012

I'm actually OK with that, those sort of bonuses are based on the performance of the company. Something tells me the math is a little fuzzy though.

uplanderguy · December 2012

The Challenger rarely gets mentioned in any context here, but as a guy who fondly remembers the original Challengers, I think it is the closest to imparting the 'coolness' of the original, compared to Mustang and Camaro. That said, I dislike pulling up behind one, because the svelte rear-end of the original is now a chunky bottom of the 'middle aged' Challenger, so to speak.

Ironically, the rear end is IMHO the best-styled feature of the Camaro. The Mustang has a nice profile not unlike the first 2+2 Mustangs I think.

explorerx4 · December 2012

Some GM execs have been cashing in their nice $0 stock options.

uplanderguy · December 2012

Since Subarus were mentioned recently, I always thought this was a dorky-looking model:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38389354@N07/6804036218/in/pool-44119739@N00%7C3838- 9354@N07

Another goofy Subaru I think, is the one where the side windows open like a drive-up window at a fast-food place. WTH were they thinking?

Although, the rest of the car looks pretty nice I think.

bpizzuti · December 2012

Some Subarus do tend to look a little dorky, some of them anyway. Always seems like they manage to boy-ricer the turbo models just enough to change them from "dorky" to "sharp" with an option on "mean."

Other than the windows, I always thought the XT was pretty sharp looking though, and they manageg a .29 drag coefficient LONG before most of their competition.

tlong · December 2012

I guess it's more important to reward the workers than to repay the taxpayers.

imidazol97 · December 2012

> to reward the workers than to repay the taxpayers.

Let me know how many of the foreign car companies from other countries have never received any assistance from their governments be it protectionism, currency undervaluation, etc..

It looks to me like the US people got their economy saved by not losing all the suppliers to their foreign brands who are building some of their cars here at that time and by not losing as many jobs as could have been lost.

busiris · December 2012

I think the track tow truck was nice enough to tow him 100' off the property onto the street so that Hertz wouldn't raise a flag.

I think I've seen that movie before...

When I went to pick up a minivan to move my younger daughter to college a few years back, there were 2 sporty-type models (don't remember the make) in front of the rental office, both obviously totaled. I thought 2 wrecked vehicles out front were a bit odd, so as I was doing the sign-in procedure I asked the clerk why they were there.

According to him, 2 young idiots had rented the cars for the previous weekend to do a little street racing. Not so good at driving in a spirited manner, one of the dudes took his buddy out. Somehow, they escaped serious injury.... But, not the cops, as they were charged with drag racing, speeding, etc.

The clerk said when they were talking to the branch manager, they didn't seem too worried about the damage... After all, they had signed up for the rental insurance. Evidently, when he explained to them it didn't cover damage caused by racing and intentional neglect, and they were still "on the hook" for the damages, their attitude changed. I never found out how it ended up...it may not be done yet...

Both of these examples are why I would never judge a vehicle based on a rental experience, other than the design layout, comfort, etc. I've seen car renters that could break a hammer and anvil... Heck, I used to work with some of them!

busiris · December 2012

That said, I dislike pulling up behind one, because the svelte rear-end of the original is now a chunky bottom of the 'middle aged' Challenger, so to speak.

To me, I think the Challenger, Camaro & Mustang have all suffered a little "middle-age" broadening of the rear end as compared to the original models they're based on.

Maybe we could say they've been "Kardashian-ized".

tlong · December 2012

It looks to me like the US people got their economy saved by not losing all the suppliers to their foreign brands who are building some of their cars here at that time and by not losing as many jobs as could have been lost.

...yet I wonder how much more competitive we MIGHT have been, if Ford could have done much better due to the demise of GM, and we could have had the few good parts of GM bought by somebody else who actually cared about running a lean, competitive car company. Oh, and no UAW legacy contracts, either.

circlew · December 2012

That is the best GM news I've heard. The bonus based on profits motivates the staff. If they get rid of the UAW baggage and then take care of the staff better than the UAW, GM will lead the World.

Balance.

Regards,
OW

circlew · December 2012

The Challenger rarely gets mentioned in any context here, but as a guy who fondly remembers the original Challengers, I think it is the closest to imparting the 'coolness' of the original, compared to Mustang and Camaro.

Completely agree. The Challenger wins the Retro theme in pony cars presently. In looks only!

My order is:
Challenger
Mustang
Camaro

Regards,
OW

fintail · December 2012

I stereotype Chevy drivers as undemanding cheapskates, and Buick drivers as those so old they still think Buick is what Lexus is now (as it was once), so no worries, uplanderguy

And Audi drivers...well, I share Jeremy Clarkson's observations there :shades:

There are a lot of status seeking drivers of most brands. You'll even see it in the type who will buy a loaded Suburban thinking it is an exotic, especially if they are in a small town with little exposure to global highline brands. And many leasers of premium cars are in it for the badge. That's what drives the astounding sales volume of late. IMO...as it becomes harder to actually make it, there are ways people can kind of fake it and still feel like they have something.

I like something rare, fairly subtle, with a high quality interior, the ability to be driven hard, and something that has a consistent smooth ride on top of it. A sport model MB is good at that, a BMW in comfort mode is there too.

fintail · December 2012

And the bailed out FIRE industries (who created a lot of this malaise) even moreso. Wall St bonuses will surely hit record territory once again.

maple2 · December 2012

Have you owned a GM?

tlong · December 2012

And the bailed out FIRE industries (who created a lot of this malaise) even moreso. Wall St bonuses will surely hit record territory once again.

As far as I recall, the govt actually MADE money on companies like AIG.

Which of course is no reason to reward them. They and the big banks should have been split into little pieces, but of course that would have endangered certain campaign contributions.

I just don't see there being any fundamental change that will prevent it from happening again.

Are there fundamental changes enough to keep GM from happening again, too? It's not trending the right way. A non-government interference bankruptcy would have been much likelier to produce GM offshoots that could have been successful, IMHO.

uplanderguy · December 2012

I'm actually a fussy Chevy owner, during the warranty especially. I'll take a car back for stuff most people wouldn't bother. My Service Manager and I regularly kid about that, too.

I'm certain I could find things on a new Lexus, Benz, or whatever, to take back during the warranty period. That's not a slam on those cars, but it's a description of me.

andres3 · December 2012

Not too many Subies. Of course, I'm in Southern California, far from Subie country, but on my trip to Tahoe, it was a good mix of Audi's and Subies.

Of course, my usual track event is with the Audi club, so it's Audi biased, but I have heard the phrase "Subie is the Japanese Audi."

I'd say there's usually one STI in the mix, along with 2 or 3 Evo's.

BRZ is too new... get back to you in April on that. There was a regular old souped up Scion, so I'm sure the newer and much better Subie clone will make an appearance or two, if not the BRZ itself.

andres3 · December 2012

I'm fussy too... an ill fitting small interior trim piece is plenty for me to take a car in for warranty.

My view is that for thousands of dollars, I can be fussy, if they lower the price of new cars down to the 4 digits range, maybe I'd be willing to be less fussy, but at 5 digits, no way.

andres3 · December 2012

o of course that takes me to brands like Audi. I owned an A4 a few years back and loved that car, except for the cost to repair.

If you don't mind me asking, where did/do you live with tha Audi A4?

Were you able to find a good independent mechanic? I've found that a good mechanic makes German cars seem very reasonably priced to work on and maintain/repair. Of course, I haven't owned an R8 yet :P

andres3 · December 2012

Glad to see bonuses for UAW workers is more important to the Big 3 than paying back the taxpayers and making the country whole! :sick:

andres3 · December 2012

Both of these examples are why I would never judge a vehicle based on a rental experience, other than the design layout, comfort, etc. I've seen car renters that could break a hammer and anvil...

That's one way to look at it I suppose. A reasonable view I'm sure. I, however, take the other side and as an owner, I particularly want to know how a car works, runs, lasts under hard use, such as rentals.

Good demonstration of durability, reliability, being driving by different people under different conditions.

If it can't handle the heat, I might not want it. (If the rental agency skimps on maintenance, that's another can of worms). I've always imagined rental agencies to be vigilent on routine maintenance intervals.

andres3 · December 2012

No, but I've owned something HQ'd in the same city.

tlong · December 2012

If you don't mind me asking, where did/do you live with tha Audi A4?

Near the LA metro area. I had a pretty good mechanic, but was going to the dealer for a while. And that was sort of a bend-over period ($$). Although they were certainly nice, they couldn't always diagnose the problem correctly.

maple2 · December 2012

No, but I've owned something HQ'd in the same city.

Michigan is a city now?

fintail · December 2012

Banks should have been split, and many financial leadership types should have been sent off to Alcatraz or worse. But now they are still traipsing around Manhattan, deciding if they should buy a Rolls or a Bugatti, enabled by my taxes. Just as some nations continue to stir the pit on my and your dime. I'd rather the latter be cut off and the monies used against deficit/debt or maybe to aid domestic industry too. What's good for our competition should be good for us.

I don't see any changes that would GM from getting sick again. You are correct that a normal bk could have fared better, but it also could have collapsed and caused an economic tidal wave of sorts. I think in this case, the feds were engaging in risk mitigation, at a price of course.

fintail · December 2012

I've never had a car with a factory warranty, so I am even pickier. Anything that seems off, I just don't buy to begin with. When the aftermarket warranty on my current car was about 3 months from expiration, I took it to my indy mechanic and told him to fix anything amiss that the warranty would cover. Would a Chevy dealer do that? :shades:

imidazol97 · December 2012

>You are correct that a normal bk could have fared better, but it also could have collapsed

A normal bankruptcy with the federal government providing cash to keep things going was what most smart folks were expecting. Instead the idea that a crisis is a terrible thing to waste was used to give ownership to the UAW taking it away from bondholders as far as equity left in value of the old GM. In a bankruptcy as described earlier and money supplied by the government, the unions would have started over on negotiations. The high cost of labor for GM would have been mitigated and a much stronger GM in terms of pricing, money spent on R&D, quality of interiors, would all have helped the current position. Even the choice of size for the new Malibu would have been more market oriented.

So the wrong games were played in the bankruptcy and GM is still being criticized for doing the best they can under the "leadership" of the government we have.

stever · December 2012

"The creditors' suit challenges a lockup agreement in which several hedge funds agreed to accept $367 million to settle $1.3 billion in claims against Old GM, known in bankruptcy court as Motors Liquidation.
Attorney Michael Richman, who represented a group of unsecured creditors during the bankruptcy, said GM's restructuring could have ended differently if the hedge fund deal had been disclosed immediately."

Creditors' claims that old General Motors shorted them will be ruled on soon by a federal bankruptcy judge (Detroit Free Press)

fintail · December 2012

I don't recall much government oversight being suggested in speculation before the deed was done, but I didn't pay close attention. I assumed some of our treacherous private equity men would have been at the helm, those who have done so much for the national employment spectrum. I don't know if the labor rates would have been instantly dissolved, nor the issues of interior quality and Malibu design etc that seem to stem from the minds of entrenched lifer upper management than from union expenses.

uplanderguy · December 2012

I have never once had my dealer tell me 'no' on a warranty issue. That's for real.

tlong · December 2012

You are correct that a normal bk could have fared better, but it also could have collapsed and caused an economic tidal wave of sorts. I think in this case, the feds were engaging in risk mitigation, at a price of course.

Risk-based, certainly. With these things you can't run both sides of the experiment. We can conjecture on what would have happened. There are scenarios from most good things to mostly bad things. And nobody can really know how it would have turned out had the bailout of GM and C not happened.

tlong · December 2012

In a bankruptcy as described earlier and money supplied by the government, the unions would have started over on negotiations. The high cost of labor for GM would have been mitigated and a much stronger GM in terms of pricing, money spent on R&D, quality of interiors, would all have helped the current position. Even the choice of size for the new Malibu would have been more market oriented.

So the wrong games were played in the bankruptcy and GM is still being criticized for doing the best they can under the "leadership" of the government we have.

Absolutely.

andres3 · December 2012

A normal bankruptcy with the federal government providing cash to keep things going was what most smart folks were expecting.

I find a fundamental flaw in your analysis.

First, usually the smark folks follow the smart money and the smart money follows the smart folks.

Second, if the smart folks were expecting a wonderful GM through bankruptcy, then they should have put up the smart money instead of the government.

Why would the Federal Government need to provide cash when the smart folks have plenty of smart money to have moved GM along.

I think the truth is that the smart money and folks wouldn't touch GM with a 10' pole.

andres3 · December 2012

Detroit????

uplanderguy · December 2012

Ah, so that's why you post constantly on a GM forum? You owned a Chrysler, but its headquarters is in the same city as GM. Makes perfect sense to me.

andre1969 · December 2012

That black thing that Spike drove was a 1959 DeSoto. It was a 4-door hardtop, and one of the bigger models, but I can't remember if it was a Firedome or Fireflite.

Umm, not that I'm a devout fan of the show, either! :P

bpizzuti · December 2012

Sorry, couldn't really tell between the blacked-out windows and the hip-deep pile of bottles.

Not that I started watching Smallville because I heard James Marsters was in it or anything. :P

busiris · December 2012

I think the truth is that the smart money and folks wouldn't touch GM with a 10' pole.

After working over the years and being involved in capital-raising ventures, I often find the term "smart money" laughable... Not that there isn't some smart money, but that there is so much stupid money that so many interpret as smart money, if for no other reason than it simply being available money.

IMO, relatively speaking, smart money is in the minority.

As I see it relating to the bailouts, the smart thing to do was to just sit on the cash until some market direction could be determined, while everyone else was so overextended by hedging and speculation they simply didn't have any available cash reserves.

In any case, what's done is done. While debating the issue of whether or not it should have happened will go on for decades, it won't make any difference.

I'm looking to see if GM can change its old ways on its second chance at life, much like the guy that has potential but never uses it, has a brush with death, then decides to do something meaningful with his life. Of course, he may simply decide to keep on doing the same things, too.

Time will tell. I would say GM better make it stick this time. I really don't see round 2 of government funding/bailout coming anytime soon. What I do see is the continued consolidation within the global auto industry in which fewer players are around in 10, 20 years.

andres3 · December 2012

I've had rental Cavalier's, Cobalts, Aveo's, and Malibu Classics all from GM.

Even a Buick LeSabre.

None of these rental experiences gave me any confidence in the way the Big 3 is making cars.

For balance... the Cobalt was way better than the Cavalier. But that's like saying Tebow is better than Sanchez.

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