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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    What's also interesting is the seams that WEREN'T finished by the companies on many cars. For example, the 1973-79 Honda Civic had a body-color panel under the front bumper that was attached with bolts to the front fenders.

    The 1970-71 Ford intermediates had A-pillars that were finished with a separate, full-length body-colored panel. The seams where this panel meets the roof are clearly visible.

    Interestingly, for its all-new 1972 intermediates, Ford used a finished pillar with no visible seams, while GM picked up the separate panel with seams for the A pillar on its 1973-77 "Colonnade" intermediates.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    uplanderguy: As a result, IMHO, they were a comfortable, pretty quiet car, and were roomy inside too as you've noted before. The Fords seemed cheap by comparison IMHO--however, IIRC, they were a good bit less expensive. An Olds or Buick intermediate in '78 could cross the $7K sticker mark--a Monte Carlo could do, now that I think about it--and that was pretty high back then for a car that size.

    GM and Ford were downsizing their line-ups at different rates in the late 1970s - GM was the clear leader in this regard - so their offerings didn't match up as neatly as they did in the 1960s and early 1970s.

    The Fairmont/Zephyr were replacements for the old Maverick/Comet, and thus were supposed to be inexpensive compacts. They competed with the Nova. (This got even more jumbled when GM replaced the old, rear-wheel-drive compacts with the new front-wheel-drive X-cars in April 1979.)

    The 1978 GM intermediates were supposed to be new-age intermediates, and thus more expensive and more "premium" than the Fairmont/Zephyr.

    Even though the cars were roughly the same size, the first Fox-platform cars weren't direct competitors with the GM intermediates.

    That didn't happen until 1980, when the Fox-based Thunderbird and Cougar XR-7 appeared to take on the Cutlass Supreme/Regal/Grand Prix/Monte Carlo, followed by the 1981 Granada and Cougar.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Ok yeah, had to do it. GM is the most popular auto manufacturer....with the government. GM has retaken the lead for fleet sales to people that pay with your money without checking with you first. ;)

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/01/gm-regains-its-crown-as-government-car-- of-choice/

    Hey, at least they're good at something, right?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    “Chevy Runs Deep” is being dropped as the Bow Tie Brand’s marketing slogan of choice, as the last vestige of the Joel Ewanick area has departed the RenCen.

    The new slogan “Find New Roads“, is said to resonate better with consumers across the globe. "


    I sort of like the new slogan, the old one sucked. Although even the new one doesn't mean much, but at least it suggests that you can drive the car!
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Well, per Power, 2009 models overall for Chevrolet are better than Audi, VW, Benz, BMW, Subaru, and Nissan. That's not 'new model' stuff.

    I understand your point here, but your comparative selections aren't really appropriate, except maybe for Nissan.

    Chevrolet isn't by any stretch of the imagination in the luxury vehicle market, which is exactly where BMW, MB, and Audi target their products.

    Having owned both "Everyman" and "Luxury" vehicles, I can tell you from personal experience that the quality I might find acceptable in a S-10 pickup would be totally unacceptable in a BMW 328.

    VW is in the competition car-wise, but doesn't offer pickups, a large segment of Chevrolet sales. Vw should be on the same level if one is rating quality and construction.

    And Subaru is definitely in a "niche" market and doesn't even come close to being a market-wide player. Most buyers of Subarus are not your typical GM car buyer. AFAIK, every Subaru has a boxer engine, so it has limited variance within individual model power trains.

    Nissan is perhaps a suitable target comparison, since it offers a similar product lineup in cars and it sells pickup trucks.

    IMO, its like comparing the sales of handbags by Walmart and Gucci. Walmart will always sell more due to price, and most buyers of high-line Gucci handbags aren't the least bit interested in what handbags Walmart has on the shelf.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    From your link...

    Topping the sales charts for the feds was the Chevrolet Malibu, with 4,341 sold at an average transaction price of $15,778.

    That price seems a bit below market value, as its the average price. The current base price listed on the Chevrolet web-site is $21,995.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    edited January 2013
    That didn't happen until 1980, when the Fox-based Thunderbird and Cougar XR-7 appeared to take on the Cutlass Supreme/Regal/Grand Prix/Monte Carlo, followed by the 1981 Granada and Cougar.

    Things really got jumbled up in the late 70's, as GM was really the only manufacturer to offer a truly new downsized intermediate platform, with the '78 Malibu et/al. Ford and Mopar just took their compact cars, restyled them a bit, and tried to pass them off as intermediates.

    In 1978, Consumer Reports actually got rid of their "intermediate" category for cars. Everything was either "subcompact", "compact", or "large". "Compact" included the Nova, Granada, Fairmont, Aspen/Volare, and Diplomat/LeBaron, but also the newly-downsized Malibu and company. "Old school" intermediates, such as the Fury/Monaco, Cordoba, LTD-II/Cougar and Thunderbird were actually grouped in as "large cars", along with the Caprice, Impala and the old mastodons like the Newport/New Yorker and the full-sized Ford products.

    Actually, I wonder if they dropped the "midsize" category in 1977? That year, when they tested a Caprice sedan, they compared it to an LTD-II, a Cutlass Supreme, and a Fury or Monaco. They called them all "large" cars, and said that nobody needed anything bigger, so they refused to test anything like an LTD, Marquis, Gran Fury, or Newport/New Yorker, etc.

    I guess you could argue that Ford never came up with a truly new "downsized" intermediate until the 1986 Taurus/Sable? And since Chrysler started basing everything off of the K-car, a compact, for them a "new" intermediate wouldn't arrive until the 1993 Intrepid/Concorde? Those were marketed as full-sized cars by that time, but I think the EPA classified them as midsized, because they came in slightly under the "full size" threshold.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    edited January 2013
    The chart isn't about 'owner satisfaction', it's about problems. I think you're implying that we should be OK with more problems if it's a higher-end vehicle. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    That price seems a bit below market value, as its the average price. The current base price listed on the Chevrolet web-site is $21,995.

    That was for the fiscal year ended September 30, so those would have all been the old style Malibu. Unless they were dumping ECOs into government fleets, which could be possible. We ended up getting a Fusion hybrid or two, although my project ended up with an Impala.

    Also, the government doesn't have to pay sales tax on those cars, so that will keep the transaction price down lower, as well. I remember back in 1996 or so, we got five Oldsmobile Achievas for $65,000 total. Or, $13K apiece.

    I thought that was pretty cheap at the time. But, adjusting for inflation, and considering what a major improvement the Malibu is, $15,778 is dirt-cheap in comparison!
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    It's interesting how much richer GM was than even its two domestic rivals in those days. Its downsizing effort was much more elaborate and comprehensive than those of either Ford or Chrysler.

    When the 1977 GM full-size cars debuted, they were huge critical and sales successes. Everyone knew that Chrysler and Ford would have to follow suit, given the success of those cars and the pressures of CAFE. The GM cars made everything else seem outdated.

    Consumer Reports may have wanted to make a statement by not testing anything larger than the GM full-size cars, but all of us knew that the Ford and Chrysler offerings were ultimately obsolete products biding their time.

    The first Taurus, ironically enough, did the same thing to the contemporary GM and Chrysler offerings that the 1977 GM full-size cars did to their competitors - make them look old-fashioned and obsolete. In 1986, GM's competitors in this class were the four-year-old A-body Celebrity/Century/Cutlass Ciera/A6000, while Chrysler was still peddling stretched K-cars.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Oh I'm sure we can pick on the new one too (Find new roads because it can't handle the road you're on, hah!), but I like how Chevy is at least trying to talk about the car and the drive now.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Fleet sales, as I've mentioned repeatedly, are not nearly as lucrative as retail sales. Fleets demand, and generally get, bulk discounts, and know they have the whip hand when it comes to any negotiation. They also know they're getting the models that most people don't want in some cases.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    The chart isn't about 'owner satisfaction', it's about problems. I think you're implying that we should be OK with more problems if it's a higher-end vehicle.

    No, exactly the opposite.

    I'm far more likely to accept minor issues on a $300 Hotpoint refrigerator than a $3000 SubZero refrigerator, therefore I'm far more likely to complain or respond to a survey with an issue on a higher priced product than a base-line, economy product... As I suspect most people are as well.

    Besides, typically a higher priced vehicle has far more options, which means far more potential things to break and cause problems.

    The iDrive controller will NEVER be a problem on a Malibu...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Also, the government doesn't have to pay sales tax on those cars, so that will keep the transaction price down lower, as well. I remember back in 1996 or so, we got five Oldsmobile Achievas for $65,000 total. Or, $13K apiece.

    Sales tax really isn't a factor at all, as it isn't included in any new car pricing on its web site.

    I guess as a taxpayer, I appreciate the low cost of he vehicles. As a GM co-owner, I'm not so appreciative...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    Yeah, but a problem is a problem is a problem; it's not about how we react to it.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Yeah, but a problem is a problem is a problem; it's not about how we react to it.

    I disagree.

    A recall for a missing tire pressure label isn't in the same league as a leaking fuel line fitting causing fires.

    I'm betting most folks would react differently to those 2 problems.

    Can you honestly say you would see 2 airline's problems equally if one had complaints of tight seating and the other had known severe maintenance issues?

    I doubt it.

    So, it IS all about how we react to it. Cars aren't any different.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We're going around and around but let's consider that Chevy may have improved and actually earned a good score.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    Thanks. It's not impossible.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Now, where can I get a new Malibu under $16k? I'm OK if it's the outgoing model. ;)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Yes, I'd like to get in on that deal as well.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Fitzmall.com had some good deals on the outgoing 2012's not that long ago, but I just checked their site, and they're all sold out. Cheapest they're showing now is a 2013 LS model for $21,432, with an MSRP of $23,290. That price does include freight though, so it seems pretty reasonable if you want one of these.

    I don't think the 2012's ever got as cheap as $16K...I think more like $17-18K I think the botched launch of the 2013 ECO-only model might have actually helped dealers clear out the 2012's. People probably saw the price of the ECO, the small trunk, and how fuel economy really wasn't all that, but then it made the 2012 look like a screaming deal.

    I think Fitzmall was pushing the V-6 model, with leather and a sunroof, for around $22-23K.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    We're going around and around but let's consider that Chevy may have improved and actually earned a good score.

    Of course, that's quite possible, and it was never my intention to imply otherwise.

    What concerns me the most is how surveys, ratings and numbers get thrown around as if they are always empirically significant, when in fact, they aren't.

    When products or services are of like quality and price, ratings can be quite useful and accurate.

    My favorite misapplication of numerical data is the hysterically overused "Our organization has over XXX years of combined experience in blah, blah, blah". It's a totally meaningless number by itself.

    IBM has how many years of combined experience in computers?

    Yet computers have only been in existence for roughly half a century.

    Example: You have the choice of flying across the Atlantic on one of two airliners. Jet 1 has 3 pilots, each with 2000 flight hours. Jet 2 has 300 pilots, each with 20 hours of flight time. Both airliners have the same total experience on board.

    Which one would you select? Without knowing that additional information, its impossible for one to know there's any difference at all.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I don't like JD Powers because they come off as "will say good things to the highest bidder" to me.

    That being said, who here likes cars being reviewed after 3 years? That's just the warranty period, I'm much more interested in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th years.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Midsize Sales?

    Malibu launch proves New GM is not any better than Old GM in the car department.

    Most of the competition beat Malibu except the Optima, Prius, Outback, C 200 and Passat.

    It was #6....despite the incentives and the fleet sales.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Even at that low price, Malibu was #6 in Mid-size sales last year.

    Not too good a showing for America. :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    They must have changed it, finallly, after reading my posts:

    "Runs Deep into..."

    Regards,
    OW
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I don't like JD Powers because they come off as "will say good things to the highest bidder" to me.

    Nah. JD Powers is more "we'll slice and dice the data until it says something good about your product."
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited January 2013
    Let's consider the Malibu as above-average dependability for a moment. Why have sales tanked?

    I just can't understand why the top global auto manufacturer doesn't have a #1 mid-sizer that blows away the competition in their home market! That should happen every year, just like the 3'er for the Bimmer brand in the ELLPS category!!!

    Mind-boggling, even for me, who can't think complex to save his life! ;)

    Go Kia! :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    edited January 2013
    Have you seen the February CR?

    You may be in for a surprise concerning the Malibu. I know most everybody here thinks CR is important.

    A 1LT was rated higher in total points than an Optima, Subaru, Altima, and Passat.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That being said, who here likes cars being reviewed after 3 years? That's just the warranty period, I'm much more interested in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th years.

    Exactly. I wouldn't even consider a car I couldn't trust to 60K+ miles. I've only ever gotten rid of a car once under 100K, and a couple have gone over 200K. My current one is still pretty sprightly at 130K and counting.

    I want to know how a car holds up over the longer term. Somebody else can buy cars every three years, eat the depreciation, and power the economy. Doesn't have to be me. :shades:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I just can't understand why the top global auto manufacturer doesn't have a #1 mid-sizer that blows away the competition in their home market!

    This.

    GM just pulled a Honda (like the recent Civic refresh). Difference is that Honda can afford the mistake, GM is much more fragile.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    A 1LT was rated higher in total points than an Optima, Subaru, Altima, and Passat.

    Maybe it will convince some buyers to come into the showrooms...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    It's not the conventional wisdom. I hate conventional wisdom. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Let's consider the Malibu as above-average dependability for a moment. Why have sales tanked?

    I just can't understand why the top global auto manufacturer doesn't have a #1 mid-sizer that blows away the competition in their home market!


    Saw Motorweek tonight (it apparently was a rerun) and they rapped Malibu on two counts. Poor rear seat legroom - they showed it. Poor gas mileage, only 22.4 mpg. This was a turbo that was tested.

    Another car tested, in the ultra luxury ultra expensive segment, was a Bentley GT Turbo V8 with 500 HP and weighing 5000 pounds. It got 20.7 mpg per the testers. The show DID NOT compare the Bentley to the Malibu.

    I know this is apples and oranges, but how embarrassing is it to GM that their Malibu got only 1.7 mpg more than the heavier and much more powerful Bentley.

    People watching this Motorweek show probably wondered why the Malibu did not return far, far more mpg with a 4 cyl engine than the Bentley with a 500HP turbo V8.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    edited January 2013
    I think a lot more people follow CR than MotorWeek (for right or wrong). Again, the Malibu was rated higher than most all cars in its class, if one looks at total points, in the Feb. CR. They did mention its higher sticker price, but again, I'd ask what can the cars really be bought for?

    I still believe it needs more rear legroom. But it's not a t*** like most people here have said without so much as getting within three feet of one.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    Nah. JD Powers is more "we'll slice and dice the data until it says something good about your product."

    Apparently, nobody told Benz, BMW, Audi, Subaru, Nissan, Mini that.;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited January 2013
    A 1LT was rated higher in total points than an Optima, Subaru, Altima, and Passat.
    Maybe it will convince some buyers to come into the showrooms...

    Perhaps this is why it might not....

    For US Automakers, Where Does Broken Trust Go?

    So GM, consuming taxpayer funds, wiping out many dealers, investors and paying NO compensation, may need to look beyond BP to judge how long potential customers might hold grudges.

    Regards,
    OW
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Apparently, nobody told Benz, BMW, Audi, Subaru, Nissan, Mini that.

    More info please?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I'd ask what can the cars really be bought for?

    This may shock you but there are mainstream cars out there that people pay sticker for. Or more, in some cases.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    Just that all those brands were below Chevrolet on J.D. Powers' three-year reliability survey, 2009 models, that was posted on this site maybe a week or so ago.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    That does shock me. After never doing that once in thirty-two years of new car buying this month, I wouldn't start now.

    In fact, I tend to avoid new and desirable models, even when they were Chevys, for that very reason.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I notice there's cash on the hood of the "new and desirable" Chevy right now. And not long after people were paying sticker for Hyundais. Not even Hondas, which also go for sticker sometimes. Hyundais were going for sticker, when GM can't get sticker for a Chevy (outside of the 'Vette anyway).
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    The Equinox was going for sticker when I bought my Malibu, in mid-'11. My wife wanted one, and besides my not liking the looks of it, the refusal to deal on them was another reason I guided my wife to the Malibu.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What's funny about JDP is that some brands do well on IQ but not longer term 5+ year Durability (VW), while others are just the opposite (Subaru).

    I echo the post above that the post-warranty era matters more to me.

    Will be interesting to see if Chevy's good scores hold up in their longer term survey. I don't see a reason to think they won't. The trucks last forever and it is sales weighted.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Just that all those brands were below Chevrolet on J.D. Powers' three-year reliability survey, 2009 models, that was posted on this site maybe a week or so ago.

    Well that's not the only piece of data they can sell to the car companies. Ever read the disclaimers at the bottom of a car commercial:

    "What we are claiming is base on JD Power data of white vehicles with tan interiors registered in Tiny Town, ND."

    JD Power can pull out any piece of data on a vehicle and help the car maker create an ad around it.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    I think that's a slight exaggeration. ;)

    "Most appealing" is always kind of laughable to me, I'll admit that.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For me the funny part was when they dinged Mini for a poorly designed cup holder. Then again, they do not measure reliability, they measure Quality and what they call Durability.

    I mean, it's not like the cup holder broke.

    They also dinged Hummer when owners complained about gas mileage. Hummers use gas very, very reliably.

    They're measuring different things than CR, that is for sure.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    edited January 2013
    I guess I thought it was 'reported problems', including mechanical things in their individual charts. Are you saying that mechanical reliability does not factor into the Power numbers? Extremely hard to believe, as you know. BTW, a broken cup holder would be 'interior hardware' on the CR survey.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I guess I thought it was 'reported problems', including mechanical things in their individual charts.

    JD Powers measures problems as "things gone wrong." It can be a defect or a design issue in the view of the person reporting the problem.

    Ford was dinged for Sync. Hummer was dinged for poor fuel economy. Porsche was dinged for dusty brake pads. All of these were reported as "problems" by JD Power although they all worked as designed.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    CR reports 'things gone wrong' as well. Somehow I do not believe that 'poor fuel economy' for Hummer ended up in Powers' three-year reliability survey. I don't believe you believe that either.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
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