GM News, New Models and Market Share

fintail · January 2013

Doing well wasn't the context though, it was questionable styling. Sonata sells well too, but design wise, it is a mess.

andres3 · January 2013

Who wants to be an early adopter from a company with transmission problems in their history?

I guarantee one reason tossed about in GM boardrooms is that with the lack of visibility on the long warranty, less people will "remember" to bring their cars back for warranty service after 50,000 miles. Less claims, less costs.

andres3 · January 2013

Really? They'd break a window and steal your Garmin for what might get $40 on the used black market?

Where are the police? Too busy getting so-called "speeders?"

lemko · January 2013

Hey, it's $40 closer to the drug high they're seeking.

Heck, you call 911 around here, you'll be lucky if they show up in half an hour.

tlong · January 2013

As for here, I'd consider their long-lived transmission problems, the VCM problem with oil usage currently, the VCM problem with engagement/disengagement, road noise, road vibration, the brake wear problems (have they cured those yet?), and many others that the fanboys tend to overlook for the perfect vehicles.

Nobody denies Honda has had some problems. Not perfect, as you would say.

But do you *really* think GM's cars have been more reliable than Honda? Even after 100K miles?

One either knows that's not true, or there's a reality issue going on.

tlong · January 2013

Doing well wasn't the context though, it was questionable styling. Sonata sells well too, but design wise, it is a mess.

At least it's a hot mess, rather than a cold mess like some others. I see analogies to *ahem* other situations but that's not the subject of this board.

:P

tlong · January 2013

Hey, it's $40 closer to the drug high they're seeking.

Just think, if we legalized the drugs, they would be so cheap that you could actually keep your Garmin, and they would have a bigger chance of OD'ing and simplifying the gene pool.

uplanderguy · January 2013

They'll need that warranty--the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid has a much-worse-than-average repair record according to the Feb. CR and cannot be recommended.

uplanderguy · January 2013

As I've mentioned here, my old Chevy van needed a TCM as it would shift hard when hot (still went in every gear). GM fixed it post-bankruptcy for me, at mileage in the high 70's, for free. My coworker's Honda Odyssey, same year as my Chevy? Total trans failure and their 'goodwill' offer was $1,800, which he paid. I remember him saying "This is supposed to be a Honda!".

I have not had oil consumption issues in any of my Chevys--or any other engine issues for that matter--in the 90's mileage as someone here posted their father is experiencing with an '09 Accord. These two things are reality.

imidazol97 · January 2013

>Not perfect, as you would say.

Since you brought it up, I just learn from what others have said about the perfect cars.

andre1969 · January 2013

Funny you should say that. I'd have probably been the guy buying a Packard over a Cadillac, Lincoln, or Imperial in 1955.

I dunno Lemko...I think you're too much of a Cadillac man. And the '55 Caddy was a beautiful car, and I'd say definitely the top choice. The '55 Lincoln just looked too much like a tarted up Mercury, and really doesn't exude luxury IMO. The Imperial did, but just wasn't different enough from a Chrysler New Yorker.

Now, if it was a used car you were looking for, say in 1958, I could see getting a Packard over the other three, just to be different. But if it was a new car, I think you'd go right for the Caddy.

I've tended to have a preference for middle-of-the-road cars, like Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Chrysler, DeSoto. In '55, I could have seen me buying a new DeSoto, but then I wonder if I would have been seduced into trading on a new '57, only to be burned by quality issues and vow never to buy a Mopar again?

busiris · January 2013

I have not had oil consumption issues in any of my Chevys--or any other engine issues for that matter--in the 90's mileage as someone here posted their father is experiencing with an '09 Accord. These two things are reality.

I had the transmission replaced on a 90 Dodge minivan at 77K miles, when the warranty period at the time was 70K miles, done under goodwill.

I had a 00 Chrysler Concorde that burned oil from day one, most likely from a bad valve guide/seal on cylinder 6 that Chrysler and the dealer refused to fix. About every 10K miles I had to replace plug #6, which the dealer graciously offered to do for me as long as the car was under warranty, but because it didn't meet the requirement of using a quart every 750 miles or less, it wasn't considered a warranty issue. They did offer to repair it for a fee, which I declined.

I traded my 2002 S-10 pickup (40K miles) for a 2009 Tacoma after being advised by an independent mechanic i use that the unusual noise I was hearing from the engine was most likely a main bearing was on its way "out".

However, considering the number of cars I've owned in my lifetime, that's a small percentage that suffered engine or transmission problems, as long as I exclude the mid-80's S-10 Blazer I had, which was a lemon in every sense of the word. It was the vehicle that, evidently, all the incompetents working on the line that day had a hand in constructing.

andre1969 · January 2013

I had the transmission replaced on a 90 Dodge minivan at 77K miles, when the warranty period at the time was 70K miles, done under goodwill.

Got one of the good ones, didja? :P Was that the 3-speed or 4-speed automatic?

I had a 00 Chrysler Concorde that burned oil from day one, most likely from a bad valve guide/seal on cylinder 6 that Chrysler and the dealer refused to fix.

My apologies if I've asked this before, but which engine did your Concorde have? I had a 2000 Intrepid with the base 2.7, purchased new. Never had any real engine issues, right up to 150,000 miles when it got totaled. In its later years, it was using some oil, but not an excessive amount. I had the thermostat housing replaced around 51,000 miles because of a slow leak, and around the 86,000 mile mark, the oil pressure light started coming on, but it was a problem with a sensor overheating, and not a real oil issue. Around the 130,000 or so mile mark, it began stalling at random, so I had the camshaft and crankshaft position sensors replaced, and that fixed it. And finally, around 145,000 miles, another oil pressure issue, but this time it was the sending unit giving a bad read.

How many years/miles did you keep your Concorde?

ateixeira · January 2013

That's subjective. Sales continue to grow so I'm sure many would disagree.

fezo · January 2013

All those 55 luxury cars. I'd wait and get a 56 Imperial. I always had a thing for them...

ateixeira · January 2013

Tonight, they want to grab the headlines first.

andre1969 · January 2013

The '56 Imperial also had a bigger Hemi (280 hp 354 CID versus 250 hp331), and an even longer wheelbase (133" versus 130"). So, it was a pretty impressive piece of machinery. Oh, and 12 volt electrics, versus 6 volt.

But, for '56, the Lincoln was redone as well, and finally looked like a luxury car, IMO. Some of the styling was awkward though, like the area around the C-pillar on the sedan.

And, for '56, I think Caddy improved on its already good looks. Incidentally, the '56 Caddy used a 285 hp 365, while the Lincoln used a 285 hp 368. I'd guess that the Imperial was the slowest of the three. Smaller displacement engine, coupled with a 2-speed automatic, whereas the Caddy used a 4-speed, and Lincoln had a 3-speed, I think.

But still, a '56 Imperial is a nice car, and I agree, the styling is an improvement over the '55. I think Mopar styling in general improved in '56, versus '55.

tlong · January 2013

Those are great stories, but anecdotal. As brands, Honda has consistently surpassed GM. Doesn't mean there aren't problems with both on occasions, or that cherry-picking the right two vehicles might tip the scales the other way for that exact pairing.

busiris · January 2013

The minivan transmission was the 4 speed.

The Concorde was the 3.2 liter LXI model. I sold in in 2007 with about 60k miles.

I really like the car in that it rode smoothly on the highway and had comfortable seats, but I knew the engine was headed south eventually.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I care more about what happens to me and people close to me than far-away info in a magazine. I think most people do.

circlew · January 2013

I care more about what happens to me and people close to me than far-away info in a magazine. I think most people do.

That's why most people migrated away from the 'big 3' to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru, Mazda, Kia.

They care about what happens to them and people closest to them than info in a magazine. They care about reality instead of 'Buy American' hype. The reality is the reality, at the end of the day, like it or not.

Regards,
OW

tlong · January 2013

I care more about what happens to me and people close to me than far-away info in a magazine. I think most people do.

I agree that most people do. That says something, given the continuing loss of market share at GM. Doesn't that mean an awful lot of previous GM owners have abandoned the company? I guess what happened to them must have caused them to switch.

tlong · January 2013

Circle, I posted my response to that post before reading your similar answer. I guess you, I, and uplander are agreeing!

uplanderguy · January 2013

Still no comment from you guys about CR saying the Malibu beats the Altima, Optima, Subaru, Passat? Still no comment about CR saying the Sonata Turbo has much-worse-than-average reliability? Come on, this stuff can't be anecdotal!

It's you guys that tell me I need to pay attention to mags like CR.

tlong, I changed the title back since you are so big on leaving out 4/5 of the story in your headline.

Obviously there's truth in the market share decline, but at least some of it has to be like this too:

For years there are four restaurants in town. Over a few years, there are six or seven more come into town. The young writers at the 'Food' department of the local paper rave about the new places. Is it logical to assume that people will shift from the same four that have been there for decades, over to the new guys? I think logic says it is inevitable.

But there I go, using that "logic" word here.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Just wondering, is anybody posting on the Subaru, VW, Kia, and Nissan sites about the Malibu outscoring them all in the Feb. CR, or is that a uniquely circlew/tlong event only here?

I have a hunch it is, although I haven't looked.

Personally, I'm not a fan of p****** in somebody's Wheaties, so I refuse to do that there.

uplanderguy · January 2013

The quarter window completely surprised me, although I'm not a fan of the vents outside the taillights. The taillights should be round IMHO. Other than that, I like what I'm seeing and also what I'm hearing.

Way to go, USA!

(Geez, that's an unpopular thing to say, shame on me.)

bpizzuti · January 2013

Frankly the Subaru guys are more concerned with the upcoming 2014 Forester. The Legacy is actually not all that important a model for Subaru, not compared to the Impreza, Forester, and Outback (which, while Legacy-based, actually competes with the Equinox...as does the Forester). The Legacy's purpose in life is to be a platform for everything else, being an actual midsize blahmobile is just gravy. :shades:

bpizzuti · January 2013

I think the new 'Vette has some styling that's very interesting to the eye, but there's a lot more sharp edges and some people are making noises that there's too much Caddy influence for a Chevy product.

Maybe they're planning on trying to sell it at Caddy dealers also?

imidazol97 · January 2013

>new guys? I think logic says it is inevitable.

Of course they will. Those new restaurants are repeated portrayed as the perfect places to eat. Nothing ever fails. No bad servings. And those old restaurants: it's so easy to find something wrong with each of them over and over--the tables are too high, the seats are too low, they need a new salsa formula, the server didn't get my coffee refilled soon enough, the floors are worn in spots, they put down the wrong new type of floor, the chair seats are too short, and the ultimate "they don't have the same floor the new places have" so there must be something wrong with the old store.

Or there's the always present, the old place doesn't have the ambiance of the new place, whatever that ambiance is in the perfect restaurant.

imidazol97 · January 2013

> is anybody posting on the Subaru, VW, Kia, and Nissan sites about the Malibu outscoring them all in the Feb.

Naaaah. They only get by with doing that thousands of times here.

In the other discussions, if someone reminds them about sludging (I mean gel) or runaway acceleration the regulars bluster up loudly and mock the new poster and say that it wasn't happening or it was customer's fault. And then they close the discussion if they can't get the "troll" banned.

stever · January 2013

Well, I've related the story about how I got bad advice from Consumer Reports on a canoe back in '73 so I've always taken them with a big grain of salt. I trust enthusiast sites more and I like JD Power (I've gotten random surveys from them before but CR self-selects).

Must explain why I drive an old 2.5l Outback with headgaskets that are going to fail "any minute now" and an old Nissan that's set a personal odometer reading.

For anyone who was driving in the 50s - 70s, any car off any lot these days is a vast improvement. Drive what you like (well, a MINI would give me pause).

uplanderguy · January 2013

I'm all for 'driving whatever you like', Steve. It's frustrating when the 'enlightened' feel the need to belittle.

BTW, ATS is North American Car of the Year:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-cadillac-ats-named-2013-nort- h-american-car-of-the-year-20130114,0,593210.story

uplanderguy · January 2013

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130102/AUTO0103/301020405/1121/auto0102/GM-- -Volt-sales-tripled-in-2012

ateixeira · January 2013

Just wondering, is anybody posting on the Subaru, VW, Kia, and Nissan sites about the Malibu outscoring them all in the Feb. CR, or is that a uniquely circlew/tlong event only here?

Actually, Yes. So there. :P

We did comment in the Subaru threads that the score for the updated Legacy went down slightly, probably because CR likes a pillow soft ride and the new Legacy suspension was made firmer, sportier. 2 points is within the margin of error, and it's not like we focus on 4th place.

Accord is the highest rated so that deserves the attention, not Malibu. The previous Legacy outscored the previous Accord, FWIW.

Outback outscores them both (and gets all the sales for Subaru anyway).

uplanderguy · January 2013

Well, this is a GM forum.

To leave out information about where ALL the cars in the survey did, is very "circle"-like!

ateixeira · January 2013

Subaru guys are more concerned with the upcoming 2014 Forester

True, but there's more to this.

CR has a rock hill and tests both the Outback and Forester on that hill, seeing how well it climbs. So the AWD works out as an advantage.

Sedans like the Legacy are not tested on that rock hill, obviously. It still scores well, but AWD is not counted as an advantage in that class. It's actually a disadvantage because of the penalty in weight, cost, and fuel economy.

The Legacy still scores well, but AWD is the one way it stands out, and in the sedan class it doesn't get points like it would in other classes.

Don't believe me?

Explain why the AWD Sienna scores lower than a FWD Sienna. Same vehicle, but in the minivan class they also don't do an AWD test.

Same for many other models that offer FWD and AWD, the latter tends to score lower.

Forester XT got the single highest score in the crossover class, where AWD is weighted heavily.

ateixeira · January 2013

I know that was directed at other people, but the Subaru folks are well informed and do not wear blinders.

We discussed the slight drop in the Outback's score much more. That's their important model.

bpizzuti · January 2013

Oh there's a lot more to it. But I figured this was a GM forum and uplanderguy wouldn't care.

Remind me later to check how the Equinox did on said rock hill (nice thing about CR is it treats crossovers not as the cars they're based on, but the SUVs they pretend to be...it's a nice reality check).

uplanderguy · January 2013

I'm sure Subaru folks are very open-minded about domestic crossovers.

xrunner2 · January 2013

According to news sources such as Bloomberg, ABC, Toyota beat GM in world sales in 2012. Toyota took over top sales spot in world in 2008. Repeated in 2009 and 2010. GM beat Toyota in 2011, but that was a fluke. Toyota had problems delivering product due to the earthquake in Japan that year.

Toyota wrested top spot from GM in 2008 after about 7 decades of GM dominance in sales.

xrunner2 · January 2013

It's you guys that tell me I need to pay attention to mags like CR.

CR is a reliable source of information that along with comparison shopping and testing of various brands' models in a segment should help make wise buying decisions.

CR info very useful in looking at a particular brand/model reliability over time. CR's annual April car issue has a wealth of information. For example, the circles. Full red, half red, empty, half black, full black.

Looking back at precious April issues, there is a lot of black showing for Chevrolet, such as Aveo, Cobalt and Uplander. In contrast, there is a lot of red showing for Toyota, Lexus, Honda.

ateixeira · January 2013

Vette looks hot! Like a bullet just fired out of a gun!

Love the Sting Ray inspiration. Front and profile are simply gorgeous. Kids will be buying posters galore. Tail is the least flattering angle but it doesn't look bad, either.

CF roof and blacked out wheels look menacing. Center exhaust. Even the engine condom is done right, shows the longitudinal layout.

I like the wilder two-tone interior and CF inlays, and those seats seem to address probably the #1 complaint on the old one.

7 speed manual, there is a God. :shades:

Better power to weight than a 911 or R8, remember when the Germans used to think the Corvette was the pig?

Love the long wheelbase and short overhangs.

37 pounds lighter. Sweet.

They hit this one out of the park!

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/13/2014-chevrolet-corvette-c7-stingray-everythin- g-there-is-to-know/

uplanderguy · January 2013

Good for Toyota, really. As many say here when GM had a good month or two, 'sales aren't everything'. That is a two-way street. Not a reason to buy or not to buy, for sure. But it is a news story and does belong here, thank you.

ateixeira · January 2013

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/cadillac-ats-ram-1500-named-2013-north-americ- an-car-and-truck-u/

I thought this deserved its own thread title.

Big news. This is voted on by journalists so what this means is the ATS has received a very warm reception from the media.

Major kudos.

ateixeira · January 2013

Plus the Caddy version is coming. I'm sure Fox News is incredibly annoyed by this.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Although I'm not a fan of the '63-67 Sting Ray (I like the '62), I believe I heard that they call the '14 base model the 'Sting Ray' ('Stingray'?). I have to say, I do think that's cool, but I'm a sentimental sort.

tlong · January 2013

Still no comment from you guys about CR saying the Malibu beats the Altima, Optima, Subaru, Passat? Still no comment about CR saying the Sonata Turbo has much-worse-than-average reliability? Come on, this stuff can't be anecdotal!

It's you guys that tell me I need to pay attention to mags like CR.

What is there to say? It's great that according to some reviews, there are cars less reliable, or that test worse, than the Malibu. I haven't seen anybody say the Malibu is a horrible car. I just don't see the Malibu being mid-pack as being anything to crow about. Why isn't GM trying to lead?

tlong, I changed the title back since you are so big on leaving out 4/5 of the story in your headline.

That wasn't my headline, it originally came from xrunner2.

xrunner2 · January 2013

The Volt is priced at about $40K, but is subsidized by we chump taxpayers with $7500 per car.

Various articles by news sources claim that the Volt is estimated to cost GM anywhere from $70K to $90K to produce.

Maybe we taxpayers should not have to pay for part of the Volt and GM should price the car to break even. But, then, who would buy it?

uplanderguy · January 2013

This year's Feb. issue should have been eye-opening, xrunner.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Wasn't it you, tlong, who said (and I quote), "Why is the Malibu so lame?"

I saw a pearly white one yesterday, with the side molding which I like. My dinner buddy, a Tacoma owner, again reiterated how much he liked the '13 Malibu rental he had so much more than the Altima, which he said he "hated" (mostly the trans' behavior).

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