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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    The '11 and '12 Malibu are better-than-average...better than Fusion for '11.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    Subaru has a big corporate office in Indiana? ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Retro design is passe, they had to modernize it.

    It looks like a Corvette, nothing else. Even a child will recognize it, "Wow, is that the new Vette?!"
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    I will say, I see Cruzes all the time and right-out-of-the-box. I don't believe I've seen a single Dart anyplace but a dealer's lot, since he mentioned that.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,672
    Actually, I heard that, as well. A friend of mine brought it up in conversation that he saw an article somewhere (I'm thinking Newsweek but don't quote me) that had a list of some of the biggest product flops of 2012, and the Dodge Dart was listed.

    I did find this article: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/05/dodge-dart-misses-sales-targets-as-inventory-- mounts/
    which mentions the Dart isn't selling well, and it also backs up a theory I had, that people are going for the Avenger and 200 instead, because of better deals. The Dart may be a better car, but I think the cheap price is what's attracting them to 200's and Avengers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru has a big corporate office in Indiana?

    No, they have a big corporate office in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Growing so fast they're currently looking for a bigger building to move in to.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    They also have offices in Indiana, since that's where their factory is. It's not like the population is 100% coverall-clad line workers you know.

    I did forget their HQ was in New Jersey though, thanks for the reminder.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    I hate the Spark. It's absolutely Korean.

    The Sonic I see was primarily engineered by "GM Korea" with input from Opel, and the outside was 'styled by Chevrolet' per the site I looked at. I hated the Aveo; the Sonic sedan I actually like.

    The Spark? I absolutely detest what I've seen.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    Well obviously, but I think you know who employs more white-collar people of all levels, more assembly-line workers, and more suppliers in the U.S. And more production is coming to the U.S.--a good thing.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dart doesn't offer a hatch, so I haven't looked at one closely.

    Of course the new Fiat, what's it called here, the 500L? Fills that niche, I guess.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    > the Subaru folks are well informed and do not wear blinders.

    I figured that out long ago, mostly from your approach to this discussion.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Well obviously, but I think you know who employs more white-collar people of all levels, more assembly-line workers, and more suppliers in the U.S. And more production is coming to the U.S.--a good thing.

    Yeah, I'm so glad Ford is around. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I would add one caveat and say "sustainable jobs are good".

    They have to do a good enough job that the cars sell and they can profit, in order to sustain themselves.

    I was pro-bailout because I still think credit vanished and so did demand. Now the car market is bouncing back. The people who have those jobs have to design cars people want, if so then great, maybe they'll even create more jobs.

    If not, then it's not sustainable. Let someone else create those jobs.

    The public is getting their first look at the pickups, Corvette is doing its job to draw crowds, and ATS is getting headlines from the press. So everything appears to be in place. I'm optimistic for GM to at least maintain its current share, with a growing market.

    Let's hope the pickups launch well, without the same hitches that Ford has had with new products lately.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Still seems silly that they took the Giulietta, removed the hatch in the process of Americanizing it, brought it here...and will use a DIFFERENT model to provide a compact hatch in the US.

    Something just seems a little inefficient about that. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thank you, wow. What next, peace in the middle east?

    Let's have lunch and we'll work it out.... :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dart is a real head scratcher for me. I kind like it, personally. :confuse:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I'm sure the Dart is having trouble finding takers for the same reason as it won't catch my dollars.

    There is one HUGE big main reason:

    Previous small Dodge car owner!

    End of story. Period.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,672
    I think the Dart looks a bit clunky in the rear door/C-pillar area, but otherwise I think it looks pretty good. It's a bit tight in the back seat for me, but I also realize it's a compact...it's not supposed to feel like my Park Ave back there!

    I wonder if the styling might be a bit too "youthful" for some buyers? Personally I like it, but I can see the Cruze being a more broadly appealing car...to young, middle-aged, and old alike.

    I haven't seen many Darts on the road yet. I don't see too many of the new Focus, either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Other redesigned Dodge/Chryslers have fared better, even updates.

    They did try to build some thing for everyone. Maybe too many engine options, too wide a price spread?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some perspective from the other side of the pond, on the outgoing one:

    http://youtu.be/Ko9kzyqW-l8

    I think the new one will go a long way towards stopping complains from the dash strokers.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    Re.: the Dart, I liked what I've seen, and from the brochure they offer a lot of choices, a big thing for me. Maybe now is a good time to shop for a Dart.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Oh I've seen a TON of current-gen Focuses around here. More than I've seen Cruzes. Probably more than I've seen Civics, but you can't tell the difference between the current and previous gens with those. ;)
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I know that was directed at other people, but the Subaru folks are well informed and do not wear blinders.

    Except of course when anyone mentions building a FWD, I4 Subaru!!

    :)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Maybe the Dart (being a name that was used before) has more negative historical reliability than the other retro names that were brought back like the Challenger/Charger.

    At least the latter has a cool movie associated with it.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    What exact ten models were ahead of the 1LT Malibu within that category in the magazine? Honestly, I can't recall nearly that many.

    Some were multiples of the same car due to 4cyl, v6, and hybrid powertrains.

    Here's what placed above the Malibu, not in actual order.

    Camry Hybrid, 4cyl LE, and XLE v6
    Accord LX 4cyl, and EX-Lv6
    Sonota Limited 2.0T, and GLS 2.4
    Subaru Legacy 3.6R
    Altima v6
    Optima SX 2.0T

    Now to be fair, the Fusion isn't listed, and the 2.0T version of the Malibu hasn't been listed either.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Oh I've seen a TON of current-gen Focuses around here. More than I've seen Cruzes. Probably more than I've seen Civics, but you can't tell the difference between the current and previous gens with those.

    Here in CA, I'd say lots of Focuses, quite a few Cruzes, very few Darts, Sonics, or Sparks. An occasional Volt. Some Malibus. I don't see many Impalas or Buicks at all. I've only seen one Verano ever.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,672
    Maybe the Dart (being a name that was used before) has more negative historical reliability than the other retro names that were brought back like the Challenger/Charger.

    Nah, the old Dart pretty much went down in history as being one of the most durable cars ever built. Although my grandparents had a '75 Swinger that stalled out at random, and the dealer never could fix it. However, they could have probably bought a 1975 anything and it would have been a piece of junk.

    But, for the most part, the new Dart has a lot to live up to, to carry that name.

    I wonder if a lot of people are staying away, partly as you said because they got burned by the old Neon (or the Caliber), but also partly because it has a lot of Italian technology in it, and they haven't quite shaken off the old "Fix It Again Twice" mindset?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's because

    A. Subaru doesn't build inline engines anymore
    B. Subaru doesn't build FF capable trannies anymore
    C. Subaru using their current engines and trannies to build a FWD car would actually cost just as much as the AWD version.
    D. Subaru customers have no desire for an FF Subaru

    Therefore it is the opinion of well-informed Subaru folks that making an FF Subaru, in addition to being a dumb idea, would be an utter waste of money for a company that shouldn't be wasting it. :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Surprisingly I've seen probably 3 or 4 Sparks around here. Which is 4 or 5 more than I expected to see.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Surprisingly I've seen probably 3 or 4 Sparks around here. Which is 4 or 5 more than I expected to see.

    LOL!

    You're in the OC/SD area?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Mid Hudson Valley.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    edited January 2013
    Maybe the Dart (being a name that was used before) has more negative historical reliability than the other retro names that were brought back like the Challenger/Charger.

    Your comparative youth is showing. Darts' reputation was that they were bulletproof--and this from a GM guy.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Mid Hudson Valley.

    Oops! I'm confusing you with somebody else (maybe Andres?). I also know gagrice is east of San Diego.

    We seem to have the east coast, the midwest (OH/MI), CA, and WA (fintail) represented. Not much from the western plains states.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    There are no western plains states, that's the Rockies. Unless you're thinking Nevada, but people near Las Vegas and Reno have better things to sit in front of than computers. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dart had a great rep but I'm afraid that doesn't help, since today's Dart would be attracting a younger buyer. Unless he/she asks grandpa to recommend a car. :shades:

    My father-in-law LOVED his Dart.

    Funny thing is I think they're cool. I like the big touch screen and the red detailing on the new GT, maybe that'll help sales:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/08/2013-dart-gt-will-hold-us-over-until-srt-stok- es-dodges-handsome/
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Wait, you mean names from the 60s don't have positive equity today? :shades:
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    lol, between the "Standard of the World" Cadillac ads and "New class of World Class" arrogance of Government Motors, I'm surprised they didn't just go with:

    Chevy: "We rule, everything else sux"

    Maybe I'm reading too many GM message boards... :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, the positive equity had faded.

    Still better than Omni, Neon, Caliber, though. Those had negative equity associated with their names.

    GLHS excepted.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited January 2013
    What I described is a significant amount of the demo, and also someone here who constantly whines about things appealing to younger people. Deal with this fact: you can sell a young man's car to an old man, but you can't sell an old man's car to a young man. Seems like someone is bitter about youth.

    Generalize away, so long as it has a basis in reality. I like that MB generally has conservative styling and doesn't have as douchetastic a clientele as the other Germans - I don't mind a car that looks boring but doesn't drive boring.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Your comparative youth is showing. Darts' reputation was that they were bulletproof--and this from a GM guy.

    Yes, a slant 6 Dart was the equivalent of a tank, and a slant 6 would run forever.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    The Dart name was out of circulation for so long that an entire generation practically never saw one on the road. Those folks more likely translated compact Mopar with Neon and Omni, which weren't anywhere near the dart in reliability or durability.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    There are no western plains states, that's the Rockies. Unless you're thinking Nevada, but people near Las Vegas and Reno have better things to sit in front of than computers

    I meant places like CO/KS/NE/OK. They're west compared with MI/OH.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,672
    Well, the positive equity had faded.

    I think the Dart at least went out on a high note, though. I remember one publication testing the 1975 compacts, and they said the Dart seemed more like a well-preserved 1965 car than it did a brand-new car. However, they added that with the way the 70's were turning out, that wasn't necessarily a bad thing!

    The Aspen and Volare, which replaced the Dart and Valiant, sent Chrysler's reputation down the toilet. Although to be fair later models weren't too bad, and some of the derivatives of the 80's, such as the Gran Fury/Diplomat and New Yorker/5th Avenue, were some of the most rugged, durable domestics produced in the 80's.

    Was the Caliber really *that* bad? I drove one once, and while it did nothing for me, I didn't think it was horrible. I think where Chrysler messed up though, was only offering it as sort of a hatchback/crossover. It essentially competed with the likes of the Focus wagon, Matrix and, to a degree, Chrysler's own PT Cruiser. They really should have offered a sedan version as well, since that's what seems to be the volume seller these days in the compact ranges.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    And all those cars were in the same 'box' on that page with the 1LT Malibu? You know what I'm talking about if you have the magazine. I think you know some of those will have to come out of your, ahem, assessment.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    edited January 2013
    Someone here certainly does seem sour today.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Subaru customers have no desire for an FF Subaru

    Well, I'll give you 3 out of 4. :) Something like a high GC FWD 40mpg wagon could be a nice option. Guess they'd really have to stick a Toyota name on it or the Crew would storm the NJ home office. :shades:

    33 pages of new Vette pics anyone? The engine shots are pretty neat - they're all the way toward the end.

    2014 Chevrolet Corvette C7 Picture Gallery
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    Thank you for posting something newsworthy and not the same old thing.

    Even haters gotta say, 'who else builds anything like it? ...and particularly with that content at that price?'
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Neither rain nor snow nor Hurricane Sandy will stop Subaru fans from invading Cherry Hill, NJ. They all drive Subarus, you know. :shades:

    Generally people who want FF cars don't shop Subaru. Mazda makes a better FF car anyway. Subaru makes excellent FR-style AWD cars based on boxer engines.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited January 2013
    And all those cars were in the same 'box' on that page with the 1LT Malibu?

    I only have access to the website. My post was based on the overall scores of family sedans which the all of the cars I mentioned are part of including the Malibu.

    For the record you're correct about the Malibu 1lt scoring higher than the Passat, Altima 4cyl, and Kia Optima 2.4.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Deal with this fact: you can sell a young man's car to an old man, but you can't sell an old man's car to a young man.

    Very true, and I know some old people who don't think they're old enough for an old man's car.
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