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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > Honda recall

    Honda? Recall. Say it's not true. :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    >What I meant is that the public impression of GM is largely a company for the older demographic.

    I think that image is perpetuated by some who want to talk only about an older GM in negative way and some by not having had a definite enough advertising break with the Old GM before the administration reformulated it.

    I think that there is an advertising gap and a perception that the leaders of GM, when they do show up on a program or article, tend to be older than some of the other faces in the news for other companies.


    Although I don't have the numbers, seems like I've read that the average age of BMW buyers is a lot younger than Caddy buyers. And we don't even need to talk Buick. I also suspect that Honda/Hyundai buyers are younger on average than Chevrolet. Clearly the opinions of those in this forum or the ages of the execs aren't the major reason why GM's buying demographic is older. I don't think it's going to help GM to pass it all off as older execs. I'm not seeing them do enough to revers the age issue, which will be continuingly important to GM's long term success as the population ages.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Happened around Jan. 18th for Pilot and Odyssey owners. Airbag issue.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Wow busiris, that's exactly what we needed! As expected, Caddy is only out-aged by Lincoln in the luxury space, and Chevy is up there in the mainstream space as well. And of course Buick is the oldest.

    Those actual data confirm what I was saying about GM and the age demographic.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2013
    Chevy's is one year older than Toyota's and Honda's, and the same age as Hyundai's, Ford's, and Subaru's. Not exactly 'aha!' stuff.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The average age of Smartcar owners is a bit unexpected. Popular in retirement villages perhaps?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Buick decreased their average age from the first sample year to the second by 4 years. Perhaps that supports more of tlong's point. I was looking at the image projected by the car companies themselves instead of the buyers' demographic.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Buick decreased their average age from the first sample year to the second by 4 years. Perhaps that supports more of tlong's point. I was looking at the image projected by the car companies themselves instead of the buyers' demographic.

    Kudos to Buick for bringing their age down so far. Hopefully they can continue that.

    Chevy may be the same as Hyundai but they are also the same as Toyota, a company known for the older demographic. Honda's is surprisingly similar; I don't think that would have been the case 10 years ago, but their offerings have become more conservative, which is why many people (including me) feel that Honda has lost its way. They've also been working on turning that around.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited January 2013
    Mustang is the all-time winner. More info for the uniformed below:

    image

    This pains me to say, as an auto investor that happens to love his 2010 Mustang GT, but I must give credit where credit is due. The recently remodeled Camaro is one awesome looking ride, and consumers agree -- the Camaro has topped the Mustang for three straight years in U.S. unit sales.

    The trend lines are improving for both, which should bode well for their sales and brand image, as the overall market improves. We'll see if these two muscle car juggernauts battle it out for sales like in the '70s and '80s, but for now Camaro has the edge. However, before you get too worked up, during the 42 years when both models were produced, the Mustang has won the sales title 31 times to the Camaro's 11
    . :shades:

    Go Mustang!

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    The 'uniformed'? ;)

    This is now, that was then.

    Honestly, I wouldn't buy either and even as a teenager I considered the Camaro just too impractical. I was looking at Monte Carlos (OK, I'm more mature now) and Malibus and new '75 Nova Customs and LN's...and a Vega GT and Monza 2+2 or two. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    31 to 11.

    Dang.. that's a lopsided scoreboard! And we chose to bailout the one that scored 11 points instead of the guys that scored 31? Strange!
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Clearly the opinions of those in this forum or the ages of the execs aren't the major reason why GM's buying demographic is older. I don't think it's going to help GM to pass it all off as older execs. I'm not seeing them do enough to revers the age issue, which will be continuingly important to GM's long term success as the population ages.

    One can go back and look at the last few decades and recall that it was mainly the senior citizens who were driving Buicks and Cadillacs. Not much has changed if one observes who is driving these today. Could be that buyers of the early Camaros and Firebirds are probably now seniors and have moved up to Buick and Cadillac. Being that the next decade will see millions of baby boomers aging into seniors, GM will be positioned properly with their Buick and Cadillac offerings when these folks start cashing in their 401's and IRA's.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    But Boomers like Lexus just as much if not more...
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Gee it couldn't be that older people have more money to buy more expensive cars now could it? Note that in the link with brands median ages, none of them have an age lower than 40 ( I looked at it walked, what was the youngest, about 45? ). Buick did have a problem in that they age of thir owners was too old, they have done a lt t address it, and as mentioned above the age has dropped significantly, and I seem to recall Caddy did that as well. Chevy owners have basically the same average age as Hyundai and Toyota, and really everyone else, so I really don't think they have more of a problem than anyone else. If the average age was 10 or more years different than it would be a problem, but 1 or 2 is really not a big deal.
    I think you are making a bigger deal out of this for most of the GM brands than it actually is, then again you seem to have an axe to graind with GM ( and you have every right to do so) and seem to think any small difference against GM shows that they are horrible ( that is the tone your messages have to me anyway, it may not be you intention though).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I'm sure a lot of those ages are thrown off by parents buying cars for their teenage and early 20-something kids.

    Also, if something is bought as part of a fleet, how is its buyer age factored in, I wonder? There's some Zipcar-like company in DC that bought a whole bunch of Smarts for their customers to use.

    Also, I'm surprised to see how close together all those average ages really are. 47 to 60 isn't really that big of a spread. Basically, that means your average buyer, regardless of make, is a Baby Boomer. It would be interesting to see the breakouts for individual models, though.

    And, Buick has done an incredible job of bringing down their average buyer age. I remember back in 2003, when MSN autos used to show average age in their listings, the Regal was something like 57, but I think the LeSabre was 67, while the Park Ave and Century were 70! I think the Rendezvous was around 45-48 though.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    This is now, that was then.

    This is now!

    In other GM recall news, NHTSA is expanding a previous 2012 Buick Verano, 2012 Chevrolet Cruze and 2012 Chevrolet Sonic airbag recall to include the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro. :P

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    General Motors is recalling 8,519 2013 Chevrolet Malibus because one or more rear suspension bolts may not have been tightened properly.

    The affected vehicles were built from December 6, 2011 through January 15, 2013.

    Somebody must have been attending to many holiday parties;)

    Uplander, IMO, this is how a vehicle can have varying reliability ratings from year to year. A recall like this is only due to a safety issue. What else could have been missed from the factory which simply was passed on to the dealer to fix under warranty. I'm not pointing this directly at GM as I think it applies to any manufacturer.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    This is now, that was then.

    That's what they call "heritage." :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Also, I'm surprised to see how close together all those average ages really are.

    That surprised me too.

    They talk about how kids aren't buying cars, but part of it is that kids often can only afford used cars.

    My in-laws sold their Bimmer when they moved up here to the boonies and started buying Buicks. They had a friend who traded every 3 years, so they would buy his old one and then sell their car to someone else. All those folks in that hand-me-down chain were over 70, otherwise the average would have popped up, lol.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I wonder if the economy accounted for some of that "regression toward a mean", or whatever they call it? It's getting harder for younger people to find a good job these days, and they're often more saddled with student loan debt than in the past. So, today they're probably more likely to buy used, get help from a parent, or even go car-less than in days gone by?

    Similarly, older people usually buy less often anyway, at least in my experience. Many of them have probably seen nest eggs drop, pensions get reduced, health care costs go up, etc. So, they're probably buying less often, too. And, since the cars usually don't wear out like they used to, there's often no need to.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    Looks like January was a good sales month.

    Toyota up 26%
    Honda up 13%
    GM up 16%
    Ford up 22%
    Chrysler up 16%

    Sales rate over 15 million.

    Doesn't look like Toyota is being hurt by the recall mess.

    For Ford, both the Fusion and Escape had great months. Over 22k Fusions sold and 19k Escapes.

    Malibu sales are improving a bit to over 15k sold in January.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I remember the first thing I wanted to do upon graduating was buy a new car. I bought a new black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic within a week of graduating as I was already working and any student loan debt I had was very modest. I doubt very many of today's graduates are as lucky as I was. Many have hard time time finding jobs that pay modestly and have student loan debt the equivalent to a mortgage.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited February 2013
    dieselone, still, no one can tell me that one year, not the next, the next year, not the next--is the year to buy, not to buy--when the assembly location, engine, trans, most everything...has remained unchanged. Little blips, yes, but I still believe it's sample error and how the car compares to everything else that year. Do we even believe auto workers move in and out of those jobs that much? I don't. Frankly, I don't believe the Juke in 2011 is much-worse-than-average and the 2012 is much-better-than-average. I know about first-year stuff, but that kind of change? Even CR seemed embarrassed by it, as all they said was 'reliability average'.

    A recall is never a positive thing (despite what bpizzuti has said! LOL), but GM's numbers are certainly waaaayyyyy smaller than Toyota's and Honda's of recent time.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I remember the first thing I wanted to do upon graduating was buy a new car.

    Me too, and I was stupid to do so. The last thing anyone should do with a low to negative net worth (I was negative as I had school loans and a little bit of credit card debt) is buy a new car.

    Honestly, as my net worth has increased my desire to spend money on a new car has decreased. I haven't purchased a brand new vehicle since 2001 and I may never buy another new vehicle.

    I went shopping for new Suburbans and Expeditions the other day. What I found on the lots were near $60k. Why in the world would I spend $50-55k+ when I can buy an 1-2 year old used model for $30-35k?

    Though it does depend. With 4wd pickups and certain cars, the spread between new and used isn't so great.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    The first thing I wanted to do was buy a new car, also.

    I graduated college with no debt and was working within 3 1/2 mos. at a 'real' job. My folks had given me their bright-red three-year old '77 Impala coupe (with the wraparound back window), but I still wanted a new car. I told them their graduation gift enabled me to buy a new car as I couldn't have afforded one without the trade-in. I had my dealer search around and I bought a new, V8 (unusual for '81) Monte Carlo, factory two-tone light jade hood and roof over dark jade everything else, positraction, FM radio, intermittent wipers, and no air. I thought I had arrived!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I can't dispute sample error issues, but I also can't rule out variation. Things happen. Bad fuel pumps can be sent from a supplier, a tool can get out of spec leading to bolts not correctly fastened.

    Example. We purchased a new boat last summer. At the end of the season when I was having it serviced and winterize the mechanic called me and told me water had entered the bellow which covers the u-joints and gimbal bearing. Well Mercruiser replaced the whole assembly and bearing.

    The drive design hasn't changed it's in several years, but in 2012 my dealer had seen the same problem on several boats with the same drive which they had rarely seen in the past on the same drive. For some reason the clamps were faulty and didn't create a good seal. This is a problem that popped up in 2012 that wasn't a problem previously and likely isn't a problem for 2013.

    Look at this particular recall for GM

    JAN 02, 2013
    Model Affected:
    2013 Chevrolet Silverado
    Summary:
    General Motors (GM) is recalling certain model year 2013 Cadillac Escalade, Escalade ESV, and Escalade EXT; Chevrolet Avalanche, Express, Silverado HD, Silverado LD, Suburban, and Tahoe; and GMC Savana, Sierra HD, Sierra LD, Yukon, and Yukon XL vehicles, manufactured between November 7, 2012, through December 18, 2012, for failing to comply with the requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 102, "Transmission Shift Lever Sequence, Starter Interlock, and Transmission Braking Effect", and FMVSS No. 114, "Theft Protection and Rollaway Prevention." The vehicles may have been built with a fractured park lock cable or a malformed steering column lock actuator gear in the lock module assembly.


    These vehicles have essentially gone unchanged since 07, how is it possible this problem came up and only affects those built between Nov. 7th and Dec. 18th.

    We only see things like this that affect safety. You're trying convince me that the same type of issues can't happen to the quality/reliability of thousands of various parts and components that make up an automobile.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    Kids and new grads are different than in the past for a variety of reasons.

    It hasn't been uncommon for my wife to have new grads work for her that continue to live at home for a few years and/or drive cheap or fairly old cars. Were not talking minimum wage as her new hires start at over $135k/yr plus bonus and overtime. I think it has a lot to do with different priorities.

    OTOH one of her other young employees just bought a new Audi A8. Neat car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I graduated at the height of Y2K malaise (oh, we thought it was bad then). I started work maybe 6 weeks out of school. My college car, the fintail, was doing fine, I couldn't afford any modern car I actually wanted - so I just stayed put. Several months after, I did buy a W126. I've never had much of a new car urge, as the used cars I have driven are pretty high spec, and used lux still trumps new standard, to me.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I graduated at the height of Y2K malaise (oh, we thought it was bad then).

    I graduated in '94 and that mild recession had me convinced at the time I'd never find a job or ever afford a house. I still vividly recall worrying about having to move back home and stock grocery shelves just to make my student load payments. Thankfully I received a few offers and accepted a position a few week prior to graduation.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Buick Encore should lower Buick's median age.

    I bet that buyer is a good 10+ years younger than their current median age.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    When was the Encore offered at the dealers. I see only 353 listed as sold in January.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    It hasn't been uncommon for my wife to have new grads work for her that continue to live at home

    In the late 80s my wife worked with a recent grad who lived at home. After making the truck payment she didn't have enough left over for rent.

    "General Motors handed the reins of its struggling European business to a veteran Volkswagen executive."

    GM gives reins of European business to veteran VW exec (Detroit Free Press)

    Sounds like a good poach.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Have yet to see one in the flesh. No Buick dealers near me, though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It worked for Kia.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited February 2013
    I think that kind of thing at suppliers is more likely than in the engineering and assembly phases, but I doubt it's enough to make big swings in overall black and red circles though. But we can agree to disagree.

    I think as someone once posted here, that the difference between a half-red circle and a half-black circle isn't nearly what it used to be.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    dieselone, still, no one can tell me that one year, not the next, the next year, not the next--is the year to buy, not to buy--when the assembly location, engine, trans, most everything...has remained unchanged.

    I don't understand why it's not obvious that a bad batch of key parts could do this. Look at Boeing and the 787... some planes in service a year with no battery problems, then two in two weeks. Could be a bad batch of batteries. And given that it has grounded the plane, I'd give the 2012 model year a black dot....
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I guess in the real world of automobiles, I've never seen this except for a safety recall.

    I often look at service bulletins, and they are usually for the start of a production run up to a point, not starting in the middle of a production run and ending sometime later (e.g., unless there's a new engine or trans or other major feature, there is rarely a service bulletin I've seen that starts only after that product has been out for a while).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Some manufacturers may avoid publishing service bulletins because they prefer their heads in the sands and to not acknowledge known issues.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    there is rarely a service bulletin I've seen that starts only after that product has been out for a while).

    I don't think you look very hard. Took me 5 minutes to find an example. Though the majority of TSBs I looked through don't give a model year range.


    2011 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Electrical System Service Bulletin 333142
    NHTSA: Action Number: 10044124 Service Bulletin Number: 333142
    Report Date:
    Mar 01, 2011
    Component:
    Electrical System
    Summary: General motors: due to the parasitic drain/discharge on 2011 vehicles and trucks, a no crank/no start and dead battery would occur. Cadillac sts and chevrolet volt not included. *pe


    Here is one for Ford

    2009 Ford Expedition Air Bags Service Bulletin 316523
    NHTSA: Action Number: 10038965 Service Bulletin Number: 316523
    Report Date:
    Apr 01, 2011
    Component:
    Air Bags

    Summary: Comm-trans lund: some 2009-2011 models may have the air bag inicator flashing with a stored trouble code.


    Hmm, the Expedition has been unchanged since '07.

    CTS

    2011 Cadillac Cts Suspension Service Bulletin 315969

    NHTSA: Action Number: 10038765 Service Bulletin Number: 315969
    Report Date:
    May 01, 2011Component:
    Suspension
    Summary: Gm: 2011 cadillac cts. There is a wine or hum noise coming from the rear differential assembly and there is a procedure to fix it. *rm
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Wild variations in quality don't surprise me one bit as when you have a tolerance for low quality and wide tolerances, you get wide variances in durability and reliability.

    The big 3 are obviously the masters of accepting anything and everything without regard to QC or QA.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    Wild variations in quality don't surprise me one bit as when you have a tolerance for low quality and wide tolerances, you get wide variances in durability and reliability.

    Ironically my BIL works for a tool and die company in Michigan that sells tooling and dies to the big 3 and most of the transplants.

    He still claims the dies he sells to the Asian plants (Honda and Toyota) require far tighter tolerances than the domestic makers, he should know as he works in sales. I have no way to verify, but that's what he keeps telling me.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The big 3 are obviously the masters of accepting anything and everything without regard to QC or QA.

    I won't diss on GM here since I haven't sampled any in a while. But having Fords I'd say that's pretty much the case overall. I think their reliability has improved overall but quality and fit-n-finish still leave a lot to be desired.

    As I've mentioned in the past my wife's '11 Taurus looks like it was assembled by 8 year olds.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Some manufacturers may avoid publishing service bulletins because they prefer their heads in the sands and to not acknowledge known issues.

    Not my experience in the slightest.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I tend to look for vehicles I own (LOL), but still...would that one thing affect so many vehicles to change an entire category, or worse yet, the entire overall score, for that one year of vehicle versus the year before or year after? Personally, I don't think so. I think it's comical to see CR say "Avoid the (fill in the year), but OK to buy the year before and after". Nothing will really change my mind on that. Of course, I do believe running improvements are made in subsequent years and new problems arise with new technology installed. And no, I still don't believe a 2011 Juke is much worse than average while a 2012 is much better than average. I mean, do the 'smell' test.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I might add, dieselone, that it looks like you're looking at a NHTSA website, not an Alldata site of GM and Ford service bulletins. There may be earlier bulletins with a different number where the number you are showing is an updated or revised number. NHTSA's website originates with customer complaints to NHTSA, and is not all-inclusive, correct?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I got it from Automd. The alldata sight wanted a membership.

    Also, if there is a TSB that usually means the problems affects quite a few vehicles.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    ...and there are always a lot of service bulletins out there.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think it's comical to see CR say "Avoid the (fill in the year), but OK to buy the year before and after".

    I don't, because there is a spectrum of problem levels, and there has to be SOME cutoff between "avoid" and not. So it's not surprising that any year to year variation could put something on one side one year, but not on another.

    And yes, I know you won't change your mind. But some people will understand this point of view and feel differently. :P

    Of course, I do believe running improvements are made in subsequent years and new problems arise with new technology installed.

    So then you admit changes in reliability can occur, and since there has to be some boundary between "avoid" and not avoid, you agree with my point even though you won't admit it! :shades:

    And no, I still don't believe a 2011 Juke is much worse than average while a 2012 is much better than average.

    Don't forget that "average" is compared to other models". So one model year may have better or worse vehicles to compare to - a competitor could have switched from a very problematic model to a much better redesign, or the opposite. But I know that doesn't change *some* opinions, either. :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    Carlos le cost cutter Ghosn had them design a part tha lasts just beyond the 12 month adjustment period.

    Then he hired lawyers to write the fine print on their warranty.

    LOL
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