GM News, New Models and Market Share

uplanderguy · February 2013

From '57? If selling prices weren't a function of the decision, I'd probably pick a '57 Ford Fairlane 500 Victoria hardtop in black and red. There was one like that, except a two-door sedan (which almost looks like the hardtop anyway) at Hershey a few years ago and I just loved it.

That, or probably a '57 Packard wagon with supercharger, three and overdrive, and roof rack. High 'funky' factor and nice ones have been bringing surprising $$ the past few years.

uplanderguy · February 2013

Try looking at the Malibu historical analysis from CR

I guess I can't blame CR for this really, but if the name had changed, would a recommendation have been more forthcoming? I mean, there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in common from, say, an '07 Malibu and a '13 except the word "Malibu" on it. So to base a '13 on older ones is rather tenuous (I'm liking that word lately).

Now that I think about it, it isn't CR who's doing that, it's circleW!

andre1969 · February 2013

From '57? If selling prices weren't a function of the decision, I'd probably pick a '57 Ford Fairlane 500 Victoria hardtop in black and red.

From '57, I almost have what I'd really want from that year, my '57 DeSoto. I think I'd like it better if it was a Fireflite instead of a Firedome, and in one of those tasteful greens they had back then, rather than the stereotypical 50's car red and white that it is.

A convertible would be cool, but I don't know if I'd want the extra hassle and maintenance of that, versus the hardtop. And while an Adventurer would be the one most people would want, the color choices were really limited on those. I think for the most part, they were just gold or black. And, I've always wondered how finicky the standard 1-hp-per-cubic-inch 345 Hemi was? It was standard on the Adventurer. However, most other engines that put out similar power for their displacement tended to be optional engines, and intended mainly for the race track. For instance, if you bought a Chrysler 300C with the 390 hp 392, it came with warning documentation that stated it was intended mainly for racing, and not really suitable as a street car. Same for the 355 hp 354 of 1956. And, Chevy's 283 hp Fuelie was pretty much a race engine as well.

xrunner2 · February 2013

I'm from a GM family, but I'd take a '57 Ford over a '57 Chevy today

57 Chevy two door hard-top and convertible are very popular and those in excellent condition draw top dollar at car auctions seen on cable tv. See many, many more 57 Chevies vs 57 Fords on these auctions and think that sales in that year had Ford beating Chevy. Best looking 57 Chevies are in red or black color.

dieselone · February 2013

Your argument falls apart, however, by the fact that GM hasn't been building turd diesels for 35 years. The Olds diesel you brought up hasn't been built for 30 years or darn close.

True, but people haven't forgot about it. When I had a Jetta TDI diesel I got quite a few comments from people on why I'd want a diesel car. Particularly from domestic car owners. This was 10 years ago, but they still seemed to remember the GM diesel fiasco.

I'm glad GM is offering the Cruze diesel, but I think more than anything it might be a tough sell due to diesel fuel costs and the fact you can buy a Cruze eco for several thousand less. For me personally, I'd like to have a diesel car like the Cruze, but I'd want a manual.

xrunner2 · February 2013

According to Christy Romero, Special Inspector General for TARP appearing on C-Span, the U.S. Treasury approved excessive pay for top executives at bailed out companies. The companies involved included GM, AIG and others.

GM wanted and paid top executives more than what was supposed to be an agreed upon cap of $1 Million AND the U.S. Treasury approved the excessive pay. Three GM employees and four Ally (GMAC) employees recieved $5 Million or more. Four GM employees and 5 Ally employees received $3-4.9 Million. GM and Treasury both responsible for these excesses.

Banks who received TARP funds have almost paid back all of their loans. GM still owes we taxpayers about $21 Billion. How long will it take GM to repay

dieselone · February 2013

Heck, a new 300-C is at the top of my car-shopping A-list. Make mine red!

I don't know if I'd want red, but a 300C most definitely would be one of the first cars I'd consider if I were to buy that full-size sedan.

bpizzuti · February 2013

It is a big deal. There are buyers out there that would never ever buy a car with a timing belt anymore. GM can't settle for being about as good as everyone else if they want to win business. They need to be better.

uplanderguy · February 2013

Even though I drive GM's daily, I tend to avoid them in the old car hobby as they're commonplace and expensive, although the independents have gotten more expensive in the past several years too.

I am so very sick of '57 Chevys. It'd have to be a fuelie or Dusk Pearl Bel Air Sport Coupe or Nomad for me to even cross the street to look at one now. OTOH, I like '55's a lot, and also '56's, and could enjoy owning either although unless the price was irresistable, I don't see it happening.

Lemko, I think the '65 Impala is a stunning design as well. I don't think there's a single bad line inside or out. Over one million Impalas sold that year, a feat never replicated by anyone since.

Here's the '65 Impala commercial, father and son (love this one):

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/camaro/2012.detail.html/conte- nt/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Nov/1116_dadcar.html

BTW, here's the Camaro commercial where the old couple turns young as soon as they step into the Camaro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuLOCSMS-3k

ateixeira · February 2013

the Optima was recommended for 2013...the Malibu wasn't

I think a more fair and accurate way to say that is the Optima was recommended, while the Malibu's status is undetermined.

It's the same way with crash tests. If you do well, you earn "Top Safety Pick", but if you fail you do not make that list.

If you're not tested, it's simply undetermined. There's nothing to discuss, no data. N/A.

ateixeira · February 2013

What is your take on Hyundai's black dots and why do you think that Kia (apparently) is better when they are the same company?

Not to antagonize, but I will try to answer the question honestly. We had this discussion in another thread.

Older Sonatas and Optimas had different wheelbases.

Each brand had unique cars, Kia Rondo had no Hyundai clone. Hyundai Tiburon and Genesis have no Kia clone. The Sedona van only had a Hyundai clone for one model year or so. Kia Sorento and Borrego weren't clones, either, and Veracruz wasn't even body on frame like those were.

They're far more similar now, but even now the lineups still differ today (Veloster, Azera, Equus, Genesis, and Soul are unique).

So differences are to be expected.

ateixeira · February 2013

That's equivalent to the Prius type commercials with the happy little people acting like flowers and blooming as the wunderbar Prius drives past saving the earth, the atmosphere and AlGore's livelihood!

They should show Al Gore Junior driving his at over 100mph. Remember the speeding ticket he got?

Who knew a Prius could go that fast?

uplanderguy · February 2013

Sonata and Optima? Current iteration?

ateixeira · February 2013

'65 Impala commercial, father and son (love this one)

Fantastic story.

Would be cool to find my dad's '72 Buick Electra if it were still around, I'm sure he'd react the exact same way.

I know it's not, though. I remember he kept the rear bench seat, he simply couldn't part with the whole car.

ateixeira · February 2013

Note I said "older". I think they went on the same platform for the current one (maybe one generation back, I'm far from a Kia expert).

They are getting more similar now.

Sonata and Optima are now clones for the most part.

Elantra is similar to the Forte, but even then, Forte will have a 2l engine, and the Elantra GT (previously Touring) isn't related to either of those, go figure. Call 'em cousins.

Accent and Rio are close clones.

Kia is getting bigger sedans based on Hyundais soon.

There may be a 50% overlap or so, but growing.

andre1969 · February 2013

I think the first-gen Optima was just a slightly-altered Sonata. The cars looked almost alike to me, aside from easy-swap things like the taillights and front-end. IIRC, the first Optima had sort of a generic lattice grille, and taillights reminiscent of the Chevy Corsica.

The second-gen Optima though, looked like it was differentiated better, like even harder-to-change things like the glass and roof pillars, and other "hard points" were different. I didn't care for the second-gen at first, but after a few years, I seem to recall it getting a handsome facelift that enlarged the grille a bit, and brought down the headlight size, to make it better proportioned.

uplanderguy · February 2013

Note I said "older".

I believe (though can't be quoted as I don't own a CR) that the Sonata's reliability and the Optima's are different now. That's really what I was asking.

ateixeira · February 2013

Currently the big differences are inside. The Sonata has a waterfall look, symmetrical, while Schreyer's influence is obvious on the Kia and it's much more driver focused, more of a cockpit, with everything facing the driver. The front passenger is totally secondary.

Good differentiation.

lemko · February 2013

I'd want a red 300-C as a testimonial to the awesome 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue I had 20 years ago that was a nice dark red and silver two-tone.

lemko · February 2013

Heck, I still have a wheel cover from my first car - a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe - still hanging on a peg in my garage.

ateixeira · February 2013

I'm looking at the 2013 buying guide, and they are similar.

Both seem to fall between Average and Better than Average. The cut off is at 20% fewer problems than average, so that could be a model going from 19% to 21%, i.e. could be very minor differences.

I prefer the Kia with the double moonroof and driver-focused cockpit.

uplanderguy · February 2013

My '11 Malibu is 'better than average', although I really don't think it's been any better at the same age than any of my more recent Chevys.

ateixeira · February 2013

No black or even half black dots on the 2011 4 bangers. It's a mature model with bugs worked out. :shades:

uplanderguy · February 2013

Heck, I still have a wheel cover from my first car - a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe - still hanging on a peg in my garage.

I've probably told you this, but the people across the street from us when I was a kid had a light blue '68 Special Deluxe V8 with 3-speed stick. It was parked out in front of their house one day when it rolled down the street and into the front porch of the house two down from us, on our side! Even then I knew a stick shift Buick was an unusual thing.

busiris · February 2013

I'm curious how well GM dealerships are going to be equipped to service diesel passenger cars.

IMO, that's the weak link in the chain. The engine in the Cruze comes from Opel, IIRC, so it should be a fairly decent power plant.

VW been doing it for a long time, on a expanded line of automobiles.

Of course, some will say servicing diesel powered trucks is no different.

I guess we'll find out...

lemko · February 2013

Funny that it was light blue. I wonder if it was the same teal blue mist as my car? Mine was an automatic.

ateixeira · February 2013

They can't possibly treat customers any worse than VW dealers, even if they tried.

busiris · February 2013

Yep, VW doesn't rank as my first choice on the customer service chart, but the dealerships do have diesel experience that goes back for years.

tlong · February 2013

Two of my favorite fairly-recent Chevy commercials were the Dad whose son found his '65 Impala (true story), and the elderly couple who turn about 30 the second the doors close on their new Camaro.

Maybe 5-10 years ago they had a really cool commercial (was it for the Avalanche) where it was sort of a drill team of a bunch of these vehicles with the doors being opened and closed in unison, and various other reconfigurations going on in many vehicles in unison, which also showed the versatility. Does anybody remember that one?

ateixeira · February 2013

Good point, and I'm sure they are quite different to service and repair.

Wonder if they'll train all techs, or have one per dealer who specializes in the TD?

tlong · February 2013

I guess I can't blame CR for this really, but if the name had changed, would a recommendation have been more forthcoming? I mean, there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in common from, say, an '07 Malibu and a '13 except the word "Malibu" on it.

...and the manufacturer GM behind it. The GM pattern, remember?

BTW, the reason the new Malibu is not recommended yet is that GM has not shown historically consistent reliability in their vehicles. So CR needs to wait and see the data. The new Accord, OTOH, is the new highest ranked family sedan and IS recommended right away, due to Honda's historical consistency of high reliability.

busiris · February 2013

"I guess I can't blame CR for this really, but if the name had changed, would a recommendation have been more forthcoming? I mean, there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in common from, say, an '07 Malibu and a '13 except the word "Malibu" on it. "

...and the manufacturer GM behind it. The GM pattern, remember?

BTW, the reason the new Malibu is not recommended yet is that GM has not shown historically consistent reliability in their vehicles. So CR needs to wait and see the data. The new Accord, OTOH, is the new highest ranked family sedan and IS recommended right away, due to Honda's historical consistency of high reliability.

And, that's the problem the folks that love to rely on "heritage" run into... One can't just bark about the good aspects and ignore the bad experiences, although some try to do exactly that.

Its true for every manufacturer.

uplanderguy · February 2013

No question about the Accord.

The thing that got me most was that all the hubbub on here about many other cars, but when CR showed they didn't even test as well as the "lame" Malibu (as it's been called on here)--the silence was deafening.

tlong · February 2013

The thing that got me most was that all the hubbub on here about many other cars, but when CR showed they didn't even test as well as the "lame" Malibu (as it's been called on here)--the silence was deafening.

CR said a lot of good things about the new Malibu - nice interior, good quiet ride, smooth engine. Their only real complaints were the tight back seat and the relatively high price. So it seems that the Malibu is close to being excellent, with a small redesign -- assuming the reliability is also decent.

scwmcan · February 2013

Actually I think it is fair to question the recommended tag for the Accord, with all the new to Honda tech there is a question ( all be it hopefully small) about the reliability of it all, new engines and transmissions for one, I do think it unlikely that Honda dropped the ball, but I do think CR should have waited a few month to see if the traditional Honda reiabity is in fact there.

dieselone · February 2013

Of course, some will say servicing diesel powered trucks is no different.

I guess we'll find out...

I'd guess if they can service a Volt they could figure out a diesel Cruze. Plus the diesel trucks are high tech too. I don't see it being a problem.

busiris · February 2013

I'd guess if they can service a Volt they could figure out a diesel Cruze. Plus the diesel trucks are high tech too. I don't see it being a problem.

Hopefully it won't be an issue.

I don't think it will be an issue at the larger dealerships, but I can foresee issues at the smaller ones.

As you stated, the Volt, and now the diesel car (and, there are differences between diesel powered trucks and cars) is a lot of "techno-know how" requirements for dealers to be supplying.

For either vehicle, before I bought one, I'd want a "nickel tour" of the service facility so I could get a "warm & fuzzy" feeling before signing on the dotted line.

I'm happy to see diesels finally making it to the US market. After spending a lot of time in diesel vehicles in my visits to Germany, I've really been impressed with their FE and power output. And, no stinking smell like the old diesels sold here in the past years.

ateixeira · February 2013

There's always a cycle of cutting costs and then re-contenting the stuff consumers notice. Honda seems to be on the re-content upswing, for now.

busiris · February 2013

Heck, I still have a wheel cover from my first car - a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe - still hanging on a peg in my garage.

About a mile from my house, there's a guy (a bit of a hermit-type, not very extroverted) who lives in a house that sits in a fairly sharp curve, on a narrow 2-lane paved road with a bit of a drop-off at the pavement edge. His house is on the outside arc of the curve, and several times a week someone used to run off the road's edge and lose a hubcap... Not so often now, because so many cars have cast or alloy wheels.

All the kids in the neighborhood call it the "hubcap house", because he used to hang the lost hubcaps on the side of his house, just in case anyone came looking for a lost hubcap. We used to joke that he had a hubcap for every make and model since WWII.

For some reason, that stopped hanging them out about 2 years ago. My wife thinks the guy got married and his new wife put a stop to it. Maybe so...

Over the years (the house is older than mine, and I've been here for 35 years) I'd bet he's collected 1000's of hubcaps. I have no idea what he's done with them all.

imidazol97 · February 2013

>a drill team of a bunch of these vehicles with the doors being opened and closed in unison,

I can remember seeing it. Your description is pretty good. But can't remember it. I can't find it on youtube, either.

busiris · February 2013

The linked video has absolutely nothing to do with GM or cars, but if you're interested in a guided tour of the International Space Station, have a look. It's about 30 minutes long...

It's not a place for the claustrophobic person...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/doN4t5NKW-k

I thought it might be a nice change of pace... Enjoy!

tlong · February 2013

I can remember seeing it. Your description is pretty good. But can't remember it. I can't find it on youtube, either.

Do you remember the vehicle it was? Idid a fair amount of searching and I can't find it anywhere, either.

Another really excellent commercial is the Honda Civic one where all the sounds are made by people, not the car:

Honda

uplanderguy · February 2013

Sorry...earlier I posted a wrong link to the '72 Malibu commercial I liked. Here it is, with Casey Kasem narrating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu-TnCo4yQ8

ateixeira · February 2013

GM lowers Malibu prices to compete with Camry in searches

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130208/RETAIL01/302089755#ixzz2KLajlfbw
Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

Average drop is $450, but some models as much as $770.

fintail · February 2013

When I was a teenager (90s), the older woman across the street had a later Chevelle Malibu like that. Original owner, car was a fancier version with vinyl top, but it had buckets (I think) and rally wheels. I think it was originally her late husband's. Her other car was an early 80s Subaru HT coupe - kind of an odd pair.

greg128 · February 2013

es, getting an extremely severely bad ownership experience from a Chrysler vehicle was one thing, but having them "STEAL" my tax money without permission

I didn't even check online but I'm pretty sure first loan and the most recent one were both paid back. I really don't think they STOLE our/your money.

greg128 · February 2013

've only had one Chysler vehicle and it turned out to be one of the best cars I ever had. I still wax nostalgic about it to this day

Our business had an old caravan (Late '80's?) 4 cyl. and that thing ran forever. I think it had about 250K on it when it was either totaled or junked (can't remember)

greg128 · February 2013

but I'd take a '57 Ford over a '57 Chevy today

My brother had a "56 Ford. That was a handsome car and IMO better looking than the "56 Chevy, and I owned one of the latter.

uplanderguy · February 2013

My Dad really liked those '71 and '72 Chevelle Sport Coupes like the one in that commercial. He hemmed and hawed and took forever to decide on buying a new car though. He waited too long and saw the '73 Chevelle...and was largely disappointed. On Oct. 6, 1972 we bought a new '73 Nova coupe, 6-cyl., 3-speed on the floor, no power anything, but AM radio, Rally Wheels, whitewalls and the Exterior Decor Group. Sticker bottom line, including destination, was only $2,625!

At the risk of getting yelled at for this not being 'current GM product', here's the first commercial for the Camaro. It's funny by today's standards--so dramatic, but that's how I remember new-car introductions being back then. Matter of fact, I should check this, but I remember looking at Camaros on the evening they were introduced. I seem to remember them coming out a couple weeks before the other '67 Chevys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOt08dgcg

uplanderguy · February 2013

A '56 Ford is just gorgeous, and probably my favorite Ford of all. I agree.

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