GM News, New Models and Market Share

circlew · February 2013

GM was number one at one time and then their future became "tenuous" decades before the doors closed.

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy · February 2013

I might add to all who still say about Impala, Malibu, and Camaro names were dropped and came back....not every change of a model name is due to negative equity in the old. It's all about marketing (sadly).

I don't believe the names Impala, Malibu, and Camaro would have returned if they had the big negative equity so many seem to say. But as is so exhaustively usual here, only GM name changes are a negative....Toyota's aren't even mentioned, until I do it.

circlew · February 2013

Not sure how 'eroded' sales became.

Perhaps not sales but surely profits in a company so diseased it basically failed years before the final curtain.

Like most discontinued models, GM's business model was.... :lemon:

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy · February 2013

Chevrolet has dumped the Vega, Chevelle, Chevette, Beretta, Corsica, Citation, Cavalier, Metro, Prizm, S-10, (S-10) Blazer, Cobalt, and Caprice. That's without touching the rest of GM.

Come on pal, they've been making Caprices for a couple years now...my city's police force uses them. They're at least as available to you, me, and everybody else as those Captivas, and the SS's you told me were available last fall ;.

uplanderguy · February 2013

I appreciate your posting this. You can see how much reaction it got from the regulars here.

circlew · February 2013

Used Cars to Avoid - Chevrolet
Camaro - '11
Cobalt -'06, '08
Cruze - '11
Equinox - '05, '08
Impala - '02; '04 - '08
Malibu (4-Cyl.) - '05
Malibu (V-6) - 02; - '07 - '08; '11

Let me know if anyone wants to see the Pickup/SUV categories.

Buyer beware.

Regards,
OW

ateixeira · February 2013

Careful, your turbo is likely to make that list, too.

Drove a non-turbo EX yesterday, it exceeded my expectations. Check the Chronic Car Buyers for details as it is off topic here.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2013

and even settle into the look a bit. Then I look at my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS (the benchmark for compact/midsize sedans, come on!) and get a sense of complete automotive well-being! :P

uplanderguy · February 2013

You're mentioning this like it's 'hot off the press', but isn't this issue a year old by now? Wouldn't the 2013 issue be out now, that includes 2012 model cars?

Again, I doubt an '11 Malibu V6 is less reliable than the '08-10. Why would it be?

Geez, guess I shoulda bought an '07 or '09 Cobalt--LMAO. Still waiting for that damn cheap OEM Cobalt battery to die yet...but the dumb thing just keeps turning right over, even sitting outside all the time in single-digit temps. You literally cannot tell it is running at idle...all for under $10K new. It may be the smartest new-car purchase I've ever made (I'd much-rather spend extra $$ on an old hobby car over a new daily driver though).

ateixeira · February 2013

Don't jinx your battery...

uplanderguy · February 2013

You know how GM supposedly cheaps out on even the smallest parts.

I will say this...it used to be that you could tell when a battery was going by the way the car cranked. Seems like the last couple or so batteries I've replaced just crapped out without warning.

Back to believing I did the right thing buying the Cobalt new....I've bought four new Chevrolets since April '02, and paid cash for all of them. I've loved having no car payments. That's been the right thing for me. The affordability has been a good thing.

ateixeira · February 2013

My battery just quit, but it was 7 years old so can't complain. Always happens in the cold when you're far from home. LOL

I got a jump and then replaced it.

I financed my '91 Escort but paid it off early and since then I've saved up and paid cash each time.

busiris · February 2013

I don't believe the names Impala, Malibu, and Camaro would have returned if they had the big negative equity so many seem to say.

I think that's a fair statement. Why start out with a hindrance?

Certainly, the marketing types (which I assume did marketing tests) understand the value of name equity, which is why we haven't, nor will we ever again, see a Chevrolet Vega, at least, in our lifetime.

Chrysler demonstrated there was a niche market for cars like the Challenger to return, to compete with the Mustang. Seems to me it was natural for Camaro to return to the same market segment, too. Lots of Boomers that have $$$ now that couldn't afford a muscle car back when the originals were out.

If Chrysler had been in better shape over the last decade, maybe we would have see Road Runners and GTX's, too.

imidazol97 · February 2013

>My battery just quit, but it was 7 years old

Which car was it in? Seven years is good for your environment somewhere in the DC area--hot, hot in summer and cold in winter. Our battery in the leSabre made it 5-7 years, but it's under the rear seat in a moderate environment compared to the engine compartment.

uplanderguy · February 2013

Just saw the March CR at the drugstore. They tested three Fusions. The Hybrid scored high...87. The SE scored 82, a point behind the Malibu LS. The Titanium scored 76. They had a sidebar about rough construction quality on their early examples (even I won't complain too much about that; I think it's been that way since the mists of prehistory when a new model comes out). Exactly like the Malibu, they didn't say they were "NOT RECOMMENDED" (ahem--oh, how the semantics make a world of difference), they didn't have a "Recommended" mark next to them because of undetermined reliability since they are new products.

I wonder if a certain unnamed regular here will go over to the Ford forum and post in capital letters, "CR SAYS NEW FUSION NOT RECOMMENDED".

xrunner2 · February 2013

I don't know where to check, but I'd say that even in its final model year the Cavalier probably still sold in the Top Ten. Not sure how 'eroded' sales became.

No doubt, low-information or no-information consumers chose the 2005 Cavalier over the world class and benchmark Civic.

Here is what Edmunds said about each:

Cavalier:

Despite various revisions, there's no hiding the fact that the 2005 Chevrolet Cavalier was engineered more than a decade ago, leaving it hopelessly outclassed by nearly every other car on the market.

Pros: Low price, torquey four-cylinder engine, optional satellite radio and OnStar.

Cons: Ancient design inside and out, cheap interior materials, poor build quality, low resale value, poor side-impact and front-offset crash test results, ABS no longer standard.

Civic:

Still the head of its class, the 2005 Honda Civic is the most refined, solidly built economy car on the market.

Pros: Fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly engines, roomy interior, reputation for durability and quality, impressive crash test scores.

Cons: Top-of-the-line models are pricey, antilock brakes not available on DX or LX.

uplanderguy · February 2013

If you wish to let Edmunds make your entire decision for you, as opposed to your pocketbook, I'm very happy for you.

Again--phenomenally arrogant to tell someone why they should or shouldn't have bought a certain vehicle. I doubt the Cavalier was out of the top ten the entire 24 years it was built. My much-younger B-I-L drove our '97 at 105K miles. He was man enough to say, "I expected it to be a POS but it wasn't at all". Of course, he needed to borrow a car because whatever ancient import he was driving at the time was down.

But I doubt I'll do any convincing. You're the guy more than one person here tried to show that even the creators of the Mustang said they were influenced by the Monza, but they didn't know as much as you. :lemon:

BTW, I'm surprised certain models of the Civic could not be had with ABS at any price. While I remember being disappointed that GM took it off the standard equipment list that late (both my base Cavaliers had it as standard equipment), GM was an industry leader in providing ABS standard, for years, on even its cheapest cars.

xrunner2 · February 2013

If you wish to let Edmunds make your entire decision for you, as opposed to your pocketbook, I'm very happy for you.

Smart consumers consider a variety of input in making their buying decisions, whether for cars or refrigerators. Input would include from those such as Edmunds, CR, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Road and Track, Automobile and other publications whose job is to test and evaluate and give opinions on cars and other motor vehicles.

Of course, after reading what those who make their living testing cars say, then visits to car dealer showrooms, inspection of car, test drives (plural) on a variety of roads of 2, 3, 4, 5, etc cars in the market segment one is considering is prudent.

Now, given this regimen, if price or low price alone is not a criterion, what percent of consumers who did "due diligence" before purchase actually chose a Cavalier over a Civic?

stever · February 2013

You missed a few. I've read that most people check around 18 sources when car shopping and the new kids hit more like 24 sites.

That said, crowd wisdom can break down. And it probably breaks down more frequently than new cars do. :shades:

uplanderguy · February 2013

I think in that class, pricing was very important to a lot of people; hence, the Cavalier's sales success over two decades. Frankly, I thought my '02 coupe, especially, was a handsome-looking car with the 15 inch aluminum wheels and a very subtle decklid spoiler, and the coupe's low beltline and teardrop-shaped side windows. I liked the styling better than the more fussy Sunfire. It was a very reliable car over the 112K miles I drove it, too. Like my Cobalt, it didn't spend a single night in a garage.

People who live in my city, and who live in my old hometown, both worked at the plant my Cavaliers were built in. I like that, and there's no bad in any of that.

imidazol97 · February 2013

>low resale value,

Always one of the mantras of the crowd. If you want high resale, I suggest the smaller Mercedes or BMW's to have a high resale. Or a Corvette.

xrunner2 · February 2013

You missed a few. I've read that most people check around 18 sources when car shopping and the new kids hit more like 24 sites.

OK. Don't know that would add up to 18.

stever · February 2013

Kind of amazing when you think of it, eh? I guess the dealers are getting used to people coming in with reams of print-outs of TMV and forum complaints and reviews.

But in the old days, we had a print Edmunds, blue books, and dozens of car mags. So maybe it's just the delivery that's changed. And you don't have to wait a month to see the corrections.

busiris · February 2013

I can honestly say that I've never purchased a vehicle based upon resale value. It might enter the equation, but only in a minor way. Predicting resale value is a crap-shoot, as I learned from owning my Pontiac Astre (Vega).

Frankly, reselling the car is the last thing I'm thinking about when I buy it.

I buy each of my cars as if its the last one I'm going to ever buy, and I get it equipped the way I would want such a car in that position to be equipped.

uplanderguy · February 2013

Me, too. I know precisely, and I mean precisely, what I want when I go in and I don't accept substitutions! In my 13 new cars, only two were bought off the dealer's lot...the rest were dealer trades except for one which I ordered. And even one of the two I bought off the dealer's lot was a real oddball (four-door Cavalier with 5-speed) and they had done a dealer trade for somebody else and that person didn't buy the car.

ateixeira · February 2013

The Sienna, but I take the blame - left the kids in the car watching a DVD and took longer than I thought. Much longer. Drained the battery and it was cold.

Jump started it, and the battery actually worked by the time I got home, but I just didn't trust it at that point, so I replaced it.

busiris · February 2013

Walking back to my car in the grocery store parking lot a few minutes ago, I found an attractive gunmetal grey Captiva LTZ parked immediately next to me. I'm guessing it was nearly new, since it still had the remains on the window of what appeared to have once been a dealer window sticker.

I looked the vehicle over closely and couldn't find any rental car identification, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a business fleet purchase. The tag showed it was licensed in Rutherford County, TN.

I waited a few minutes for the owner to show up, but finally left after a no-show. I was curious to ask him/her questions about the vehicle, and how they liked it.

It was a nice looking, smaller -sized SUV, IMO.

ateixeira · February 2013

Fords look great and they seem to be on the sporty side if each segment, but I am concerned to say the least. They've had botched launches for each new product and several sources show concerns on quality/reliability. A co-worker had her Fiesta's whole trans replaced.

I hope the faults they found on the Fusion are sorted out by the time they move production out of Mexico.

The hybrid still scored high and appears to be a good value. I'm just not going to be the first guy on the block to buy one.

busiris · February 2013

I'm just not going to be the first guy on the block to buy one.

I think that is good advice for anyone interested in a new model introduction, regardless of manufacturer.

I'm of the opinion that those who simply must have the "latest and greatest" new design/model also assume a large part of the "debugging" process that cars go through when they finally hit the market.

imidazol97 · February 2013

> licensed in Rutherford County, TN.

That's Murfreesboro TN's county, which may include the Nissan plant area there.

Are you in TN?

busiris · February 2013

No, for better or worse, I live in upstate SC, approximately 10 miles from the BMW manufacturing plant.

fintail · February 2013

But other than the market abandoning the category (it did in 1988 for the Monte, but GM execs didn't get the memo), why were the others phased out? They withered on the vine. Many others seem to be able to make competent vans and even 4 door liftbacks.

I think Avalon might have replaced a middle range Buick :shades:

To be fair, Echo was just the US name of what was the Yaris elsewhere, for many years. I'd blame marketers for that one.

Scion is a very cynical marketing exercise, and it warms my heart when I see older people driving them.

tlong · February 2013

Smart consumers consider a variety of input in making their buying decisions, whether for cars or refrigerators. Input would include from those such as Edmunds, CR, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Road and Track, Automobile and other publications whose job is to test and evaluate and give opinions on cars and other motor vehicles.

There are certainly SOME consumers who fall into other categories:

* The person who will consider many manufacturers but has a few they won't consider.

* The person who will only consider one manufacturer no matter what.

I think we have all three types on this board.

bpizzuti · February 2013

I don't believe the names Impala, Malibu, and Camaro would have returned if they had the big negative equity so many seem to say.

I think that's a fair statement. Why start out with a hindrance?

I don't. Why drop a name and spend the money building up a new one unless the current one has become a liability? Especially Impala and Malibu, which were out of action for a LONG time.

As for not saying "boo" about other companies' name changes, I already responded. Toyota has a decent list of retired nameplates. GM has a much longer list, and this is a GM forum. So while Toyota has retired the Corona, Cressida, Celica, Echo, Tercel, arguably the Camry Solara, and the MR2, GM has retired the Vega, Corvair, Caprice, Citation, Chevelle, Chevette, Cavalier, Cobalt, Metro, Tracker, Beretta, Corsica, Blazer, Blazer again (the S-10 version), and this is just Chevy, without getting into the entire Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, and Hummer lineups of nameplates. The Caprice PPV, of course, is a separate name from Caprice. :shades:

Anyone still want to compare Toyota to GM? Thought not.

bpizzuti · February 2013

That's obviously impossible because the Captiva can't be bought or found on dealer lot. Uplanderguy doth hath declared it. :shades:

It's a nicely sized SUV isn't it? Interior looks reasonably nice too.

uplanderguy · February 2013

You know, too--of course you do, but par for the course here--that GM has had many, many, many, many, many more sizes/classes/models over the years than Toyota. To believe this has nothing to do with it is farcical.

uplanderguy · February 2013

You're right, bpizzuti--your Chevy dealer won't have a single new one in stock for you to buy, and they won't have it at the Auto Show either...and it's not on Chevy's own website. Wow, you finally figured that out!

What busiris saw was a fleet vehicle.

Let me know again which dealers you knew had SS's in stock last fall.

It's OK, Fonzie, to say that you were wr....wr....wr...!

Go to your nearest Chevy dealer and look in their new car inventory stock, or in their brochure rack, for a Captiva. Let me know what you find out.

And you don't consider "Caprice PPV" to be a reintroduction of the name "Caprice"?

I think I've stepped into a Monty Python episode.

anythngbutgm · February 2013

Government Motors is cutting the price of the Chevrolet Malibu in an acknowledgment that the model is falling behind its competitors in the ferociously competitive midsize sedan segment.

andre1969 · February 2013

Interesting, I just picked up on this line: The vehicle is particularly important for GM because itâs sold in 100 countries.

I didn't realize that the Malibu was such a "world car". I wonder if that's one reason why it's a little under-sized for the domestic market?

uplanderguy · February 2013

You're a bit behind the times, anything. This was posted on here a week ago. Even with that back seat, CR still preferred the LT model by a point to the new Fusion SE and several other much-talked-about models from other makers on this forum.

ateixeira · February 2013

To be fair, CR's Malibu was the priciest car in that class, a 1LT model over $26 grand.

The Kia they tested was in the high $21s, for reference.

Price cut sounds like a good idea. Though I think it also simply had more equipment (thus helping its score).

anythngbutgm · February 2013

A week ago? Article is dated Feb. 8th. that was Friday...

So, do you think it will help? According to cars.com the base price of the Malibu compared to cars that sell in similar amounts, like the Sonata and Optima is higher, while being down on Standard hp, city fuel mileage, while being a few ticks better on the highway. The price drop might make it a bit more of a bargain than the other 2 competitors.

Comparison

uplanderguy · February 2013

OK, change that to "last week". I was wrong. I wish more folks on here could say that.

My gut feeling is that the Malibu was always discounted more at the dealership level than the others. But that's merely a hunch based on what I've experienced, and heard over the years.

The price cut is a good thing for the buyer, and as a buyer instead of a pretend auto executive, I think it's a good thing.

There is only one model below a Malibu LT, and that's an LS, which isn't fleet-exclusive like the Captiva and Caprice PPV, but I bet more go there than into retail hands. Merely a guess. I don't know much 'equipment' an LT would have. As has always been the case with GM, with a few exceptions, I think nobody pays sticker price. I haven't paid sticker price once in 32 years.

Funny, the Fusion Titanium (isn't that the uppermost model?) scored only 76, seven points below a Malibu LT. Now, you won't even see me defending the Malibu Eco, which scored a couple points below the Titanium. (They thought the Sonata Hybrid sucked too.)

ateixeira · February 2013

They didn't get good mileage from Ford's turbos.

The Ford hybrid scored very high, though. And price isn't bad - closer to the Malibu's MSRP than the Optima they tested.

I still say let 'em work out the bugs, and maybe wait for a Made in the USA Fusion, rather than getting a Mexican built one now.

ateixeira · February 2013

Expanding my car search, since I have yet to find the right car....

Which GM cars have a panoramic moonroof? Prefer something fuel efficient, and under $35k. For mostly city use.

On paper the C-Max was near perfect but I took the family to the auto show and all 3 of them said no. That back seat is a travesty.

uplanderguy · February 2013

Your post makes me wonder--again about CR's metholodogy at times--how the engine choice can make an eleven-point swing, out of 100, in the overall score of a car. I mean, it's still a Fusion.

ateixeira · February 2013

2.0T was coarse and mileage dropped.

They hate MyFord touch so that may have dragged the score down if the 1.6T model didn't have it.

Also, keep in mind this is the kind of magazine that determines what car you should recommend to your Aunt Edna - big tires = harsh ride and those get dinged, too.

uplanderguy · February 2013

They're commenting on styling now, you know.

ateixeira · February 2013

Hey, they liked the updated Traverse:

http://youtu.be/JaPGPUv64UY

The only nit pick was fuel economy, but if you're familiar with their reviews, that's about as good as they get.

busiris · February 2013

Why drop a name and spend the money building up a new one unless the current one has become a liability? Especially Impala and Malibu, which were out of action for a LONG time.

One reason could be that different market segments react differently to how products and services are marketed.

A great example is cellphones. Try to market a full-featured smart phone to the above 65 crowd and you're probably not going to see record sales. Take the same phone and market it to the teenager crowd and you'll see the opposite happen.

Now, offer a simple, large button flip-phone with large text display to the over 65 crown, and you'll most likely sell more phones... Phones which would totally be rejected by the teenager crowd.

I think older Americans place much more credence in an old car name than one under 25-30 years of age. At least, that's what I've seen in my experience. I doubt few young buyers are looking at Impalas or Malibus (the Cruze is probably more their style).

The Camaro is attempting to capitalize off the same market as Mustang and Challenger, so it makes sense to use the same old name. In a car like that, which appeals to more than one market segment (both boomers and young,sports oriented buyers), keeping a "heritage" name can help generate sales, at least from the boomer crowd.

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