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BMW = Break My Wallet I owned one - once - that is why I have never bought another in 20 years and am a loyal Honda fan. They are great when they are running but they are like a thoroughbred race horse - expensive to maintain, have to coddled, and when they break it is fatal - never got left stranded by a car so much in my life. Two weeks in the shop waiting for parts, stranded my wife several times - unacceptable to me in a car. Words of advice - Never buy a car with a tool kit built into the trunk lid - there is a reason for it being there! :P
C'mon guys, back to VCM thoughts here, please.
Regarding VCM....it's extremely quiet!
No new posts or people coming here complaining about VCM. Do a search on the Internet and there is nothing out of the ordinary. Other auto sites are not reporting problems. I talked to my Honda service department this past Tuesday, and they report no major problems. They did acknowledge that some owners are quizzical or confused about how the ECO light works and its relation to cylinder deactivation, but the service manager said they are not getting any complaints, to speak of. There have been a handful of resonance issues with the Odyssey, but nothing out of whack from a reliability/vibration/surging standpoint. But I also live in a relatively small town of 100,000 people.
The service manager did acknowledge that because of VCM, the car drives differently. This Accord is also the biggest departure from prior models. The ECO light is impossible to ignore, so psychologically it can influence driver behavior or attitudes in ways that few other cars evoke. Ideally, it is getting drivers who care about gas mileage to alter their driving style (ie:drive more slowly or less aggressively) to maximize MPG. On the opposite end of the spectrum, even if the car doesn't surge or vibrate, the constantly flashing ECO light can be perceived to be Big Brother imposing its will on the driver. I can see how it can be annoying to some.
But we aren't seeing widespread evidence of the severe vibration or surging issues, beyond the handful of complaints that appear to be quite real in those individual cases.
Honda's sales results for April remain strong. The Accord is selling strongly and can be considered a success in the marketplace. Honda has 3 of the top 13 best selling models in the U.S., with Accord sales up +21.3% (April 07 vs. April 08) and up 1.1% YTD.
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/080502-Auto-Sales-Hi- - t-10-Year-Low/
ljgbjg, "2008 Accord Noisy Tires" #45, 9 May 2008 12:43 pm.
The Edmunds road tester's obervations?
"The ride was smooth enough but I kept wanting a little something from the engine for passing, etc. that it was never able to deliver. It isn't gravely underpowered but it would be nice to have a little more back-up the times I needed it. It is a V6."
While my car healed itself from the VCM issues - surging, etc. - I continue to be disappointed with its performance - the loss of at least 30 lbs ft of torque in the mid range rpms versus the regular V6 6MT coupe is very noticeable - I had a couple of moments driving this weekend when I called to the engine room for power while cruising at about 50 in ECO mode when I pressed the accelerator to the floor and there was nothing there - no downshift - no power. I took my foot completely OFF the accelerator and slammed it to the floor - ONLY then did it downshift and I get some passing power. The initial reluctance to downshift and respond to a call for power was downright dangerous. GET RID OF THE VCM AND ADD A 6spd AT FOR BETTER MILEAGE HONDA. And let us turn off the VCM and make the tranny a retro fit on the 2008 models too
If you floored the accelerator at 50 MPH and your car didn't downshift to 2nd or 3rd, you have a serious problem, unless you were exaggerating. I'd be at the dealer, pronto! In my Accords, flooring it at 50 would mean a two or three gear drop (5-2 in my 2006 5-speed auto, 4-2 in my 1996 4-speed auto).
And, one reason for buying a Honda in the first place was to not have to be a resident at the dealership. I have owned other cars that gave me more than my fill of that - never with Hondas. It is a nuisance to have to go back every time the car does something "out of the ordinary". This is not an ordinary car - there are many aspects to its driving operation - the VCM, the automatic transmission shift points, upshifting and downshifting - that you will not find in any other car, even GM VCM equipped cars because the systems operate differently - delivery of fuel, valve opening on "dead cylinders", etc.
So, I was simply agreeing with the Edmunds road tester - driving this car there are times when you call on it for power and it just isn't there. It doesn't perform up to its advertised specs. And neither I nor Edmunds are the only ones to comment on that - other road tests have done the same.
This is why I think you have a problem.
I just tried mine twice at 50 with ECO on punched it and it downshifted to 3rd and took off.
Roger
On a recent 300+ mile trip to Maine and back to Mass there were far fewer times that the VCM activity made it's presence known. While I'm not going to say that it has cured itself, it doesn't feel as abrupt in it's on again off again activity. I don't think that it's just me becoming accustomed to it either, I feel that it is actually becoming less hyper or intrusive while it's doing it's thing. With a return of 29 mpg's on that trip I certainly can't complain about the fuel economy.
Find a new deal, my friend.
"He's saying that when punched it produced the expected downshift and thrust associated with it. But when pressed, as opposed to punched, a build in speed resulted, but a gradual one, which if your expecting the downshifts and associated torque boost this can get you into trouble when its not delivered. I can't say that I've experienced exactly what he did, but I have on occasion not been aggressive enough with the throttle and found that I will just get a gradual build in speed.'
The dealer confirmed that simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will not invoke a downshift - but a sharp punch or mash on the accelerator will. You DO have to plan ahead a little bit as dpmeersman also said. I ask again - what are your driving? If you have a 6 speed coupe you have nothing to base our experiences on, and what, like I said, is now "normal". Given the complexity of all the drivetrain components of this car, it is not "normal" by by our historical experiences. Not in a bad way necessarily - but different.
The dealer confirmed that simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will not invoke a downshift
This is the statement I have a hard time with. In fact, in the owner's manual of my 1996 Accord, it states that "flooring the accelerator" will cause a drop in gears.
No - I did not tell the dealer that and that is not what I said.
Except that it is what you said, and I quote:
I called to the engine room for power while cruising at about 50 in ECO mode when I pressed the accelerator to the floor and there was nothing there - no downshift - no power
This was your original statement, and is what I was basing my post on. If that original statement wasn't true, then I am REALLY confused! :confuse:
I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm picking on your dealer because I truly believe flooring a car at 50 should drop you to at least third, regardless of how quickly the pedal is pressed (instantly, or five seconds to the floor). Just giving it "some" gas won't do the same thing as flooring it.
First, we are talking about a 2008 Accord Sedan with VCM here. No offense, but because you reference earlier models not equipped with VCM, you cannot possibly relate to our driving experiences. Why references of comparison to the 6 spd MT coupe? Because it is the only 2008 V6 without VCM.
Second, I quote myself:
"...when I pressed the accelerator to the floor and there was nothing there - no downshift - no power. I took my foot completely OFF the accelerator and slammed it to the floor - ONLY then did it downshift and I get some passing power. The initial reluctance to downshift and respond to a call for power was downright dangerous."
"The dealer confirmed that simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will not invoke a downshift"
That is correct - I don't care what the manual says for your earlier Hondas. With THIS car, you cannot simply depress the accelerator - you need to punch it like dpmeersman said. Simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will merely cause it to go out of ECO and into the V6 mode, but does not cause a downshift out of 5th gear overdrive, and the responsive burst of speed and power I was looking for.
I am sorry for your being confused - neither I nor dpmeersman can explain it any more clearly I am afraid. He/she certainly understands what I am talking about - because he/she is a fellow VCM owner. And I want to make this perfectly clear too - I am not bashing anything - I like my car - simply pointing out that the VCM engine/transmission behaves differently under certain circumstances than previous Hondas, does lack about 30 lbs ft of mid range torque veersus the 6 speed MT car without VCM, and explains in part the Edmund's editor's comments in the long term road test, the genesis of my whole thread of posts, about a seeming lack of power in the 2008 V6 Sedan.
If it is really going to the floor as you say, ljgbjg, your car should downshift; period. Whether at 35 MPH or 85 MPH, a downshift should occur when the throttle is floored. I've completely understood ljgbjg's and d-man's posts, for the record. I understand you are saying when you floor it quickly it does downshift, and when flooring it more slowly it doesn't. What I am saying is that it is unsafe for it to do so - and if your service advisor was mine, he wouldn't be for long.
I'd still talk to another dealer, if you are flooring it (regardless of how quickly you depress the pedal - doesn't matter) and get no downshift.
You can lecture all you want, and that IS what you are doing, and all I have to say is keep it to yourself. geesh - I am a 60 year old man who has owned and driven many a car, including exotic sports cars, and I am being told how a car is supposed to perform by people who don't even know me???? Golly gee whiz - thanks y'all!! FYI, I called two other dealers and got the same response so Honda is either jerking me around or they know their car and how it operates. Yes, I KNOW other cars will downshift if the accelerator is merely depressed to the floor - DUH! - I think I have owned and driven a few. That is NOT how THIS engine/drivetrain/transmission performs - and it IS unique - name one other car with a 6-4-3 VCM operation and grade logic transmission. :confuse: I have had enough of this insulting exchange. :mad: I was trying to be helpful pointing out an experience I had because the lack of accelerative response in an emergency situation could be fatal. This car must be punched hard to get this drivetrain to respond. That is all I was trying to do - warn people and then I get questions like how hard did you depress it??? Maybe you were exaggerating? OWN one before you can say anything about one. Some of you do not qualify to comment at all.
And I'll I have tried to do is get you to try a different service department. I haven't argued that this is unsafe - I whole heartedly agree. One has to ask questions when they don't understand the first statement. When I said you "floored it and it didn't downshift," you responded saying "that's not what I said." This led to my confusion. I only asked because I was so surprised and wanted to know that this is what you told your dealer for sure. Then you said you didn't. Now you say you did floor it. See why there's confusion on my end?
And, the 2008 Honda Odyssey has the same 6-4-3 VCM operation and grade logic transmission, to answer your challenge.
OWN one before you can say anything about one. Some of you do not qualify to comment at all.
The host makes that decision sir, not you.
In the end, I'd still suggest you visit another dealer. Let out your hostilities on them, not us. I've just been trying to understand your problem concisely, and it has been met with this last post you have made (#1427).
Oh, believe me I do and it has nothing to do with how I have expressed myself.
And to demonstrate my point - you answer my challenge "name one other car with a 6-4-3 VCM operation" with the Odyssey (and only on the touring edition) - not a car, a HONDA minivan. Your lack of precision with the language, sir, is what causes your inability to understand. You cannot grasp the distinction between depressing the accelerator and punching it, which point I have made ad nauseum.
" OWN one before you can say anything about one. Some of you do not qualify to comment at all." You are accurate in your response - the host makes that decision. However , sir, everyone else here can take what you say with a grain of salt since you do not own a 2008 Accord with VCM - in my book you are not qualified to comment at all about its operation. Would be like me trying to advise someone who owned a Bugatti Veyron how their car is supposed to operate.
It really takes a lot of chutzpah for a non-VCM owner to come on here and advise an experienced owner how their car is supposed to operate and even in the face of the unanimous opinion of three Honda service departments, contend that the service departments are wrong.
The only "hostilities" I have arise when I am addressed as an idiot with the incredibly insulting questions that have been posed of me. I have no hostilities to take out on a dealer - no dealer has insulted me. End of conversation.
I gotta wonder what our wives comments would be after reading some of the long threads like this one. I can assure you there would be an intervention on my behalf if this heated discourse were say at a family cookout. But hey boys will be boys, and Accord owners are a passionate lot.
This car does have characteristics unlike any other I've driven, and I'm 52 years old. I wonder if Honda doesn't have some mild reprogramming in store for us during our first service call. I'll find out soon enough. In light of all this I would buy the car again, and while it may not have the most get up and go, be it thru gradual increases in speed our full on mashing it if we aren't careful out there with all the traffic on the roads these days we could pose a danger either to ourselves or others and at the very least our wallets thru insurance surcharges.
I'd sure hope so with the transmission issue (not downshifting).
I am not in the habit of having to literally stomp on an accelerator to get a transmission to downshift, but instead, like you, to simply press it to the floor and get the desired response - like Scotty, full warp speed!!! Not good when there is a delay in response.
Would I buy the car again? Perhaps, but not without having given the Camry a shot and test driven one, and not bought the Accord on blind faith in Honda engineeers. Its acceleration is quicker, there are no VCM issues, it has a 6 speed tranny, turns lower RPMS/mph in top gear, and according to the EPA, I believe you only give up 1 MPG versus the Accord with VCM. The VCM V6 is reasonably quick when needed, but I think the editor of Edmunds got it right when he said it was lacking in power - it IS a V6, and a Honda V6 to boot - which historically have actually had better than advertised HP.
You are right about driving this car with one further comment - I believe it is different enough in its responsiveness from past experiences with non-VCM engines that we COULD pose a danger to ourselves or others - making a move to pass someone with rapidly moving traffic coming up from behind, only to call to the engine room for MORE POWER and have the transmission do what mine did! :sick: Not a good thing. And I do generally, unfortunately (but it is the nature of llving in the NYC metropolitan area), drive in heavy traffic having to make quick acceleration and deceleration moves. Looks like I simply have to adjust my driving style to the quirks of the car! Otherwise, like I said - the annoying cruising behavior is either gone or become unnoticeable because of my becoming accustomed to it - but I don't think the latter is the case because my wife no longer notices it either. She loves the car and thinks it was plenty of power. Guess I am like Tim "The Toolman" Taylor :P when it comes to power - never enough!! I wish it were more immediately responsive, but I'll adjust. Or maybe as you suggest, Honda has some secret service adjustment they'll perform when we take it in for that first servicing!
Just let it go.
As for who can and cannot post here, certainly no one is required to own an 08 Accord with VCM to post here. But IMHO those who do not should respectfully back off if someone is reporting certain experiences you find dubious in a car you've never driven. That only makes sense in my mind.
Let's move on, please.
Pat please allow a little latitude in posting this here as I'm trying to get responses before tomorrow and I'm not sure how many people will respond from the maintenance forum where I've also posted this message. Thanks
I have been lurking here a while reading what everyone is saying about the VCM-equipped Accord. I have less than 1000 miles on mine at the moment and have noticed some rough transitions between VCM and non-VCM modes, especially on the highway. I find it virtually unnoticeable when cruising around town. I also find it seems to be worse when the engine/car is cold, e.g., I parked mine at the airport for a week and when driving home I especially noticed the rumbling sensation when the VCM kicked in. After warming up a while it seemed to get better. I agree with the acceleration issue, it takes quite a heavy foot to get the tranny to downshift, when it does it seems to take off pretty well. Anyone tried manually dropping it into D3 via the shift lever? PITA I know, but I might experiment a bit. All in all, I sure would like to have a button to switch it off when I wanted to.
Doc
1. Modern engine tooling and tolerances are significantly improved today. "Back in the day," they recommended an early oil change to purge the engine of impurities and engine remnants. Those days are over. Break in periods are still also recommended in the owners manuals, but they are less emphasized since the cars are ready to go out of the box.
2. Today's engines rely on greater computer diagnostics to measure its running condition, as well as the condition of the oil. Again, "back in the day" we were told to change the oil and filter every 3000 miles (perhaps to increase the revenues of service depts and quick lube shops). Today, that is a waste of fossil fuels and is unnecessary in most circumstances.
3. The engine oil that comes in the car's crankcase from the original factory has additives to help it "seal in" the engine. This obviously improves long term durability of the engine. Ironically, you can go up to 10,000 miles before the first oil change is needed on a brand new car. Again, a paradigm shift.
4. For decades, Honda only warrantied their engines for 3 years, 36,000 miles. Two years ago, the powertrain warranty was improved to 5 years, 60,000 miles. Honda was one of the last companies to increase their warranties to such a standard. With that enhancement in mind, it makes me less nervous that they no longer require the filter to be changed with every oil change.
5. We also know factually and anecdotally that cars are lasting much longer due to improved quality and design. People are also keeping their cars longer today, and this is attributable to improved quality, at least relative to major mechanical breakdown. It is no longer unusual for a car to last 200,000 or miles, provided you take care of it.
6. Most (all?) new Hondas come with a computerized "maintenance minder" system which emits regular messages that are hard for the average owner to turn off. So, the frequency of Hondas being taken to the service dept is up, just because the darned messages keep popping up. That means Honda service depts see cars more frequently, improving the odds of identifying in-warranty and out-of-warranty problems. So, one can argue that not changing the filter is merely the responsible thing to do, without sacrificing the frequency of service dept visits.
So, I'm really not that frosted that Honda no longer recommends changing the filter with every pit stop. Three times in my life (out of 20+ cars owned), I purchased an extended warranty. I never had a claim on any of them, so in my book an extended warranty is a dubious purchase. I would have been better off to take the money and bought a CD with it.
I have almost 45,000 miles on my Odyssey with the original version of VCM. No resonance issues or problems with my van. The van runs well and it averages around 21~22 mpg, which ain't bad for a 4500 pound vehicle frequently toting 5~6 screaming teenagers.
I wish you were an Auto.Md and could do a house call on my car..
Here is the drill. While I know others are experiencing all sorts of issues, I started this thread so feel I have a solid level of experience and time on the road with this new model and observations from reading all 1400 posts. Now in no way does this make me an authority, however I think I can honestly say I was one of the first to raise the VCM issue up on about any board I could find only 2 weeks after buying the car off the first production run. I have 12,000 miles on it and I will agree with you that in city driving its is not as hyperactive as highway driving. I think this is due to the constant speed changes typical with city driving, I think this simply masks the behavior that is more prevelant on Highway operation (steady state). The car demonstrates two distinct deficit behaviors in my opinon. Constant cylinder mode changes that result in that pumping, lurching sensation and the vibration that occurs when in 3 cyl mode. neoither can be fixed unless Honda steps up to 1. acknowdleding publicy these traits , or 2. Reprograms the computuer controlled operation of the VCM.
The best choice is a simple override button that the driver can have. Been screaming for this for 6 mos.
when you layer the vibration, surging on top of very firm (i feel uncomfortable seating), your simply left with a non typical honda accord experience. its a bummer for sure.
we continue to fight with honda for something reasonable....
Great looking car with loads of great features but over shadowed by its feel on the road especially on highway. btw when in Cruise Control I feel ZERO surging or lurching still.. the car parents the throttle better then me I guess, but there is something to that for sure no matter how steady I hold my foot off CC
Golfr
Has the dealership checked the Drive by Wire? Maybe the signal sent from the Accelerator to the Drive by Wire is fluctuating (even when you hold your foot steady), and causing the VCM to constantly change modes.
Just something I thought of when I read your statement. :confuse:
This is physiques talking; for example (you have a 3800 lbs car, that you need to move from 0 to 30 MPH in 6 seconds; for the I4 case the engine RPM will be 60% higher than the RPM for the V6 to accomplish the same thing. This means that the I4 will burn almost the same amount of gas as the V6 to move this car from 0 to 30 MPH in 6 seconds). This analogy will give you an idea about the uselessness of the VCM in stop and go traffic. But Honda need to change the software that control the gear changes (grade logic it keep changing gears), and change the software that control the VCM.
I have tried the manual shifting into D3 as you suggest, but only in-town at the lower speeds and it does seem to have a slight, but nevertheless perceptible, positive effect on the harsh 21-22 mph shifting. But if I wanted to do my own shifting, I would have bought a stick.
As you will see if you scroll through the past posts, I have raised these issues with Honda of America as well as the dealer, and the line is that the car is operating as intended -- which may in fact be the case, though it certainly calls into question what the intent is, so to speak. The assistant service manager at the dealer said Honda changed the operation of the transmission for the 08s to make the shifts more noticeable. I have no idea why it would do so (nor did he), but that's what he said. Long story short, don't expect to get any relief voluntarily from Honda.
You've been through an awful lot, I know!
If it were me I would try to analyze what may have caused the issue in the first place, and then understand what made it all magically go away. Did your Honda service dept acknowledge the vibration when it was there in the first place? Did they say it was "normal" or did they even feel it? Do they know that the car no longer exhibits the vibration? Is that development considered "normal"? It strikes me that your issue is not so much that the problem went away, but exactly why that happened. Your experience is different from those who say VCM works, and those who are stewing in "VCM hell." Your mileage has indeed varied from everyone else's. Strange. But still somehow troublesome.
The handful of complaints being detailed on this board are not subtle or open to interpretation. They appear to be outright defects. Where I get lost is that these people are being told that these experiences are also "normal." Something doesn't add up.
I'm glad your issue cured itself. I hope for your sake that it is a permanent fix.
Do you own a 2008 V6 with VCM? Have you asked a dealer about any of the issues owners have had here? Contrary to your experiences with Honda, and I dare say for most of us this is certainly not our first Honda so contrary to ours as well, the standard answer seems to be - it's "normal". I also dare say that, frankly, the complexity of the components that make up the VCM technology in this engine is beyond the capabilities of the service departments to diagnose and correct. I think that is where the disconnect is that - "doesn't add up". But that is my opinion. As previously explained by me here, I believe my layman wife's thought processes are probably as close to the mark as you can get - the active engine mounts simply took a little while to get broken in, and dpmeersman seems to confirm that with his/her experiences as well. "Where I get lost" is where people who either do not own a 2008 V6 with VCM, or those who do but have been fortunate enough to have no problems, advising or questioning those who have with comments like yours:
"Their first step is to try to replicate the problem. And then diagnose it. Many Honda employees also own and drive Hondas. I have not experienced the cavalier attitudes that some have outlined in the face of what they say are VCM breakdowns."
Do you think we have all not tried this? I mean really, come on, comments like that are insulting to our intelligence.
It's irrelevant whether or not I own a VCM-equipped Accord. My wife will be replacing her 2005 RL in the next 12 mos., hence my interest in considering the purchase of a VCM-equipped Accord or RL or TL. This is an open forum and we should encourage honest, intelligent, and respectful dialogue.
However, I refer you to Pat's post 1433, wherein he/she says:
"As for who can and cannot post here, certainly no one is required to own an 08 Accord with VCM to post here. But IMHO those who do not should respectfully back off if someone is reporting certain experiences you find dubious in a car you've never driven. That only makes sense in my mind."
Therefore, your statement - "It's irrelevant whether I own a VCM-equipped Accord today." is totally incorrect.
I do agree with you though about "respectful dialogue" - something which, while you may not have realized it, you were not conducting when you started into your little speech about problem diagnosis. That was not asking questions as you suggest..
My conclusions about VCM based on what I have read from owners on this forum? Its being advertised by Honda as "seamless and not noticeable by the passengers" is a manufacturing ideal that seems incapable of being met 100% on the assembly line. There are cars with varying degrees of compliance with that engineering goal - some perfect immediately, as witnessed by those expressing complete satisfaction with their cars; some mildly not, like mine, dpmeersman, doc holliday and others, with their noticeable surging and going into and out of ECM 6-4-3 and back again quite frequently at highway speeds, using cruise control or not, as also noted by the WSJ reviewer, and with slow accelerator response as noted by the Edmunds editor; then there are those with severe vibration problems like sunnfun and golfrski. Then too, there are some whose cars "cleared up" after an extended break in period - myself and dpmeersman seemingly included to date. I have no answers, nor do the Honda service departments with which I have spoken. Maybe all my lights are working but the system isn't and it is a V6 all the time, thus my low fuel economy? No - it is right in line with Edmunds' long term test car.
All in all a very complex link of ECMs, Active Engine Mounts, Grade logic transmission, throttle by wire and other mechanisms intended to accomplish what - fuel savings? Honda has several models with 4 cylinder engines capable of that, including the just as luxurious EXL. Why not simply build a 6 speed transmission with a taller overdrive?
I think it is very clear from the experiences of V6 VCM owners here that the lesson to be learned for a prospective buyer as you indicate you are, is to road test the very car you will buy, because the severity of the unpleasantness of VCM seems to vary considerably from car to car. As the owner of an Odyssey with VCM you cannot anticipate the same operation from this engine - it is a different system and more complicated with the three modes of operation in a much lighter vehicle.
Unlike my first 1980 Accord, this one is NOT a simple car. In fact it seems to me Honda chose the most complicated and convoluted way possible to try to improve economy that a simple 6th speed tall overdrive geat in the tranny would have accomplished.
And get the extended warranty!
Good luck.
I think it is important that the folks here who are experiencing the VCM issues be careful not to assume they are being criticized when people offer different thoughts and suggestions. As I've noted, this is an open discussion. If you feel offended by a point of view, then really, the best thing to do would be to move on. Bickering back and forth doesn't help anyone at all, least of all the people involved.
If you feel like a post is out of line, absolutely feel free to drop me an email and I will review it as soon as I can.
Thanks everyone!!
My experience while maybe not "normal" should illustrate what can happen in an instance like this... while many people are enjoying the car and are on their way down the highway at this moment with no real concern, I am not, and it is the "instances" or "exceptions" that a customer will experience that define the company in which we choose... in this case Honda failed my family and for that, they lost me as a customer and as an evangelist for their automobiles. While that may seem insignificant to Honda out of the total population of sales they have or will have, its a tangible, and impactful deficit for them. Not simply from my loss as a customer but for all the people I will come into contact with that i will share my personal experience with...my referrals are no more and that is my decision and right as a consumer. A sad commentary to what I have felt for 20 years was such a wonderful company, I am sorry to say my experience and outcome proves differently.
we are still waiting for Honda to do the right thing, taking smaller breaths as opposed to holding it,,, soon we will sell the car, trade it etc and this will be a closed case for me.. I will then move over to another forum and hopefully talk about my satisfaction with a competitors product.