Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Honda Accord VCM

1242527293051

Comments

  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    How did we get on BMW or Lexus mileage when this is a Honda VCM forum?

    BMW = Break My Wallet I owned one - once - that is why I have never bought another in 20 years and am a loyal Honda fan. They are great when they are running but they are like a thoroughbred race horse - expensive to maintain, have to coddled, and when they break it is fatal - never got left stranded by a car so much in my life. Two weeks in the shop waiting for parts, stranded my wife several times - unacceptable to me in a car. Words of advice - Never buy a car with a tool kit built into the trunk lid - there is a reason for it being there! :P
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, it's not going to go away as long as you and others keep posting about it! :)

    C'mon guys, back to VCM thoughts here, please.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Sorry...my (intended to be rhetorical) question got us off tangent. My bad.

    Regarding VCM....it's extremely quiet!

    No new posts or people coming here complaining about VCM. Do a search on the Internet and there is nothing out of the ordinary. Other auto sites are not reporting problems. I talked to my Honda service department this past Tuesday, and they report no major problems. They did acknowledge that some owners are quizzical or confused about how the ECO light works and its relation to cylinder deactivation, but the service manager said they are not getting any complaints, to speak of. There have been a handful of resonance issues with the Odyssey, but nothing out of whack from a reliability/vibration/surging standpoint. But I also live in a relatively small town of 100,000 people.

    The service manager did acknowledge that because of VCM, the car drives differently. This Accord is also the biggest departure from prior models. The ECO light is impossible to ignore, so psychologically it can influence driver behavior or attitudes in ways that few other cars evoke. Ideally, it is getting drivers who care about gas mileage to alter their driving style (ie:drive more slowly or less aggressively) to maximize MPG. On the opposite end of the spectrum, even if the car doesn't surge or vibrate, the constantly flashing ECO light can be perceived to be Big Brother imposing its will on the driver. I can see how it can be annoying to some.

    But we aren't seeing widespread evidence of the severe vibration or surging issues, beyond the handful of complaints that appear to be quite real in those individual cases.

    Honda's sales results for April remain strong. The Accord is selling strongly and can be considered a success in the marketplace. Honda has 3 of the top 13 best selling models in the U.S., with Accord sales up +21.3% (April 07 vs. April 08) and up 1.1% YTD.

    http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/080502-Auto-Sales-Hi- - t-10-Year-Low/
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Again, the subject here is the VCM. Please look for an appropriate discussion for other subjects before changing the subject here. :)

    ljgbjg, "2008 Accord Noisy Tires" #45, 9 May 2008 12:43 pm.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Sorry Pat - thanks for redirecting me!
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Like many others with the VCM equipped cars the question that keeps coming up is " Where are the 268 Horses?" Dyno tests have found that the VCM engine fallls behind the 6 speed MT V6 coupe engine by about 30 lb ft of mid range torque.

    The Edmunds road tester's obervations?
    "The ride was smooth enough but I kept wanting a little something from the engine for passing, etc. that it was never able to deliver. It isn't gravely underpowered but it would be nice to have a little more back-up the times I needed it. It is a V6."
    While my car healed itself from the VCM issues - surging, etc. - I continue to be disappointed with its performance - the loss of at least 30 lbs ft of torque in the mid range rpms versus the regular V6 6MT coupe is very noticeable - I had a couple of moments driving this weekend when I called to the engine room for power while cruising at about 50 in ECO mode when I pressed the accelerator to the floor and there was nothing there - no downshift - no power. I took my foot completely OFF the accelerator and slammed it to the floor - ONLY then did it downshift and I get some passing power. The initial reluctance to downshift and respond to a call for power was downright dangerous. GET RID OF THE VCM AND ADD A 6spd AT FOR BETTER MILEAGE HONDA. And let us turn off the VCM and make the tranny a retro fit on the 2008 models too
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    while cruising at about 50 in ECO mode when I pressed the accelerator to the floor and there was nothing there - no downshift - no power.

    If you floored the accelerator at 50 MPH and your car didn't downshift to 2nd or 3rd, you have a serious problem, unless you were exaggerating. I'd be at the dealer, pronto! In my Accords, flooring it at 50 would mean a two or three gear drop (5-2 in my 2006 5-speed auto, 4-2 in my 1996 4-speed auto).
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Let me clarify about the power not being there - "pressing" the accelerator to the floor resulted in no downshifting - sure the ECO light went off and you could feel the V6 "power", but no rush of acceleration because it was in 5th or 4th - both of which are overdrives - I wanted 3rd at least. Only by mashing on it did it downshift to a multiplier gear and give me the acceleration I was expecting and demanding. I attribute it to the whole VCM thing. No Honda I have ever owned drives like this car does - that has been the source of a great deal of frustration. I cannot recall what you own - 6 speed coupe or 5 AT Sedan, but much of what the dealership will tell you is "normal" for this car is foreign to every other driving experience I have ever had. Although the car "healed" itself from the annoying highway operation, there are still other aspects of its driveability that are different from previous Hondas I have owned. You have to forget what was "normal" - "normal" is now different. I have never before owned a 6-4-3 operating engine system equipped with grade logic transmission and VSA. And I am not "bashing" Honda or the VCM - it is just different and takes some time to adjust to from what your past experiences may have been.

    And, one reason for buying a Honda in the first place was to not have to be a resident at the dealership. I have owned other cars that gave me more than my fill of that - never with Hondas. It is a nuisance to have to go back every time the car does something "out of the ordinary". This is not an ordinary car - there are many aspects to its driving operation - the VCM, the automatic transmission shift points, upshifting and downshifting - that you will not find in any other car, even GM VCM equipped cars because the systems operate differently - delivery of fuel, valve opening on "dead cylinders", etc.

    So, I was simply agreeing with the Edmunds road tester - driving this car there are times when you call on it for power and it just isn't there. It doesn't perform up to its advertised specs. And neither I nor Edmunds are the only ones to comment on that - other road tests have done the same. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Regardless of how quickly the pedal got to the floor - an instantaneous boot to the floor or a gradual increase of throttle over a period of seconds - the car should downshift to at least 3rd at 50-70 MPH.

    This is why I think you have a problem.
  • rbbrickrbbrick Member Posts: 37
    Hi
    I just tried mine twice at 50 with ECO on punched it and it downshifted to 3rd and took off.
    Roger
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Yeah - like I said, downshifted only when I punched (mashed) it - simply firmly depressing it did not bring about the desired downshifting. A lesson learned. Called the service department at the dealer - like I thought - "normal" for this car - don't bother bringing it in :P . Like I said in my earlier post - what was "normal" no longer is in VCM world.
  • sunnfunsunnfun Member Posts: 168
    Got a call from Honda corporate late last week. Was the same person from the previous file a case # with corporate/take it the dealer and it's opertaing normally so we can't find anything wrong episode. I called and left a message as they were not in. I wonder if this is related to my email???? Or are they just following up to get an update? Who knows. As soon as I talk with them I'll post more.
  • dpmeersmandpmeersman Member Posts: 275
    He's saying that when punched it produced the expected downshift and thrust associated with it. But when pressed, as opposed to punched, a build in speed resulted, but a gradual one, which if your expecting the downshifts and associated torque boost this can get you into trouble when its not delivered. I can't say that I've experienced exactly what he did, but I have on occasion not been aggressive enough with the throttle and found that I will just get a gradual build in speed. With previous cars I've owned my non-aggressive depression to the floor would still have resulted in at least one but usually two drops in gear to build speed for passing, with my 08 V6 I have to leave no room for doubt and mash it, at which point the resulting power boost is quite pleasing and on par if not the exact equal to other V6 sedans in this price range.
    On a recent 300+ mile trip to Maine and back to Mass there were far fewer times that the VCM activity made it's presence known. While I'm not going to say that it has cured itself, it doesn't feel as abrupt in it's on again off again activity. I don't think that it's just me becoming accustomed to it either, I feel that it is actually becoming less hyper or intrusive while it's doing it's thing. With a return of 29 mpg's on that trip I certainly can't complain about the fuel economy.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You told the dealer "my car won't downshift to a lower gear when FLOORED" and he said this was normal?

    Find a new deal, my friend.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    No - I did not tell the dealer that and that is not what I said. dpmeersman got it absolutely right -

    "He's saying that when punched it produced the expected downshift and thrust associated with it. But when pressed, as opposed to punched, a build in speed resulted, but a gradual one, which if your expecting the downshifts and associated torque boost this can get you into trouble when its not delivered. I can't say that I've experienced exactly what he did, but I have on occasion not been aggressive enough with the throttle and found that I will just get a gradual build in speed.'

    The dealer confirmed that simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will not invoke a downshift - but a sharp punch or mash on the accelerator will. You DO have to plan ahead a little bit as dpmeersman also said. I ask again - what are your driving? If you have a 6 speed coupe you have nothing to base our experiences on, and what, like I said, is now "normal". Given the complexity of all the drivetrain components of this car, it is not "normal" by by our historical experiences. Not in a bad way necessarily - but different.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I have two automatic Honda Accord sedans. I'm not sure why the 6-speed coupe keeps coming up?

    The dealer confirmed that simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will not invoke a downshift

    This is the statement I have a hard time with. In fact, in the owner's manual of my 1996 Accord, it states that "flooring the accelerator" will cause a drop in gears.

    No - I did not tell the dealer that and that is not what I said.

    Except that it is what you said, and I quote:

    I called to the engine room for power while cruising at about 50 in ECO mode when I pressed the accelerator to the floor and there was nothing there - no downshift - no power

    This was your original statement, and is what I was basing my post on. If that original statement wasn't true, then I am REALLY confused! :blush: :confuse:

    I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm picking on your dealer because I truly believe flooring a car at 50 should drop you to at least third, regardless of how quickly the pedal is pressed (instantly, or five seconds to the floor). Just giving it "some" gas won't do the same thing as flooring it.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Ok, let's clear some things up here because you ARE confused.

    First, we are talking about a 2008 Accord Sedan with VCM here. No offense, but because you reference earlier models not equipped with VCM, you cannot possibly relate to our driving experiences. Why references of comparison to the 6 spd MT coupe? Because it is the only 2008 V6 without VCM.

    Second, I quote myself:

    "...when I pressed the accelerator to the floor and there was nothing there - no downshift - no power. I took my foot completely OFF the accelerator and slammed it to the floor - ONLY then did it downshift and I get some passing power. The initial reluctance to downshift and respond to a call for power was downright dangerous."

    "The dealer confirmed that simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will not invoke a downshift"

    That is correct - I don't care what the manual says for your earlier Hondas. With THIS car, you cannot simply depress the accelerator - you need to punch it like dpmeersman said. Simply depressing the accelerator to the floor will merely cause it to go out of ECO and into the V6 mode, but does not cause a downshift out of 5th gear overdrive, and the responsive burst of speed and power I was looking for.

    I am sorry for your being confused - neither I nor dpmeersman can explain it any more clearly I am afraid. He/she certainly understands what I am talking about - because he/she is a fellow VCM owner. :) And I want to make this perfectly clear too - I am not bashing anything - I like my car - simply pointing out that the VCM engine/transmission behaves differently under certain circumstances than previous Hondas, does lack about 30 lbs ft of mid range torque veersus the 6 speed MT car without VCM, and explains in part the Edmund's editor's comments in the long term road test, the genesis of my whole thread of posts, about a seeming lack of power in the 2008 V6 Sedan.
  • yrmacyrmac Member Posts: 134
    How hard are you "pressing" that accelerator? I mean, this is all relative. If you are in a certain speed and you are just "pressing" the accelerator, the ECM will not downshift due to your vehicle speed sensor. Your speed sensor is probably telling your ECM that the corresponding transmission gear is sufficient enough for your engine powerband hence, no downshift. FYI, there is always a corresponding speed and powerband to each of your tranny's gear. And this is all true for any make of vehicle. Not only with VCM equipped Accord.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    yrmac, he or she says they floored the throttle at 50 MPH and got no downshift.

    If it is really going to the floor as you say, ljgbjg, your car should downshift; period. Whether at 35 MPH or 85 MPH, a downshift should occur when the throttle is floored. I've completely understood ljgbjg's and d-man's posts, for the record. I understand you are saying when you floor it quickly it does downshift, and when flooring it more slowly it doesn't. What I am saying is that it is unsafe for it to do so - and if your service advisor was mine, he wouldn't be for long.

    I'd still talk to another dealer, if you are flooring it (regardless of how quickly you depress the pedal - doesn't matter) and get no downshift.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    OMG - I am sorry I said anything to get lectures and these types of questions about my driving. How dare you all? It was a simple statement - how much clearer can it be. dpmeersman tried it and he had the same thing happen with his 2008 Accord V6 w/VCM. The Edmunds editor commented on the car's seeming lack of power. That is how this all got started.

    You can lecture all you want, and that IS what you are doing, and all I have to say is keep it to yourself. geesh - I am a 60 year old man who has owned and driven many a car, including exotic sports cars, and I am being told how a car is supposed to perform by people who don't even know me???? Golly gee whiz - thanks y'all!! FYI, I called two other dealers and got the same response so Honda is either jerking me around or they know their car and how it operates. Yes, I KNOW other cars will downshift if the accelerator is merely depressed to the floor - DUH! - I think I have owned and driven a few. That is NOT how THIS engine/drivetrain/transmission performs - and it IS unique - name one other car with a 6-4-3 VCM operation and grade logic transmission. :confuse: I have had enough of this insulting exchange. :mad: I was trying to be helpful pointing out an experience I had because the lack of accelerative response in an emergency situation could be fatal. This car must be punched hard to get this drivetrain to respond. That is all I was trying to do - warn people and then I get questions like how hard did you depress it??? Maybe you were exaggerating? OWN one before you can say anything about one. Some of you do not qualify to comment at all.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, I KNOW other cars will downshift if the accelerator is merely depressed to the floor - DUH! - I think I have owned and driven a few. That is NOT how THIS engine/drivetrain/transmission performs - and it IS unique - name one other car with a 6-4-3 VCM operation and grade logic transmission.

    And I'll I have tried to do is get you to try a different service department. I haven't argued that this is unsafe - I whole heartedly agree. One has to ask questions when they don't understand the first statement. When I said you "floored it and it didn't downshift," you responded saying "that's not what I said." This led to my confusion. I only asked because I was so surprised and wanted to know that this is what you told your dealer for sure. Then you said you didn't. Now you say you did floor it. See why there's confusion on my end?

    And, the 2008 Honda Odyssey has the same 6-4-3 VCM operation and grade logic transmission, to answer your challenge.

    OWN one before you can say anything about one. Some of you do not qualify to comment at all.

    The host makes that decision sir, not you.

    In the end, I'd still suggest you visit another dealer. Let out your hostilities on them, not us. I've just been trying to understand your problem concisely, and it has been met with this last post you have made (#1427).
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    "See why there's confusion on my end?"
    Oh, believe me I do and it has nothing to do with how I have expressed myself.

    And to demonstrate my point - you answer my challenge "name one other car with a 6-4-3 VCM operation" with the Odyssey (and only on the touring edition) - not a car, a HONDA minivan. Your lack of precision with the language, sir, is what causes your inability to understand. You cannot grasp the distinction between depressing the accelerator and punching it, which point I have made ad nauseum.

    " OWN one before you can say anything about one. Some of you do not qualify to comment at all." You are accurate in your response - the host makes that decision. However , sir, everyone else here can take what you say with a grain of salt since you do not own a 2008 Accord with VCM - in my book you are not qualified to comment at all about its operation. Would be like me trying to advise someone who owned a Bugatti Veyron how their car is supposed to operate.

    It really takes a lot of chutzpah for a non-VCM owner to come on here and advise an experienced owner how their car is supposed to operate and even in the face of the unanimous opinion of three Honda service departments, contend that the service departments are wrong.

    The only "hostilities" I have arise when I am addressed as an idiot with the incredibly insulting questions that have been posed of me. I have no hostilities to take out on a dealer - no dealer has insulted me. End of conversation.
  • dpmeersmandpmeersman Member Posts: 275
    I had an eighty mile round tripper this morning for jury duty and I was going to do the gradual throttle test again but to much traffic and construction. Besides I've been trying to behave myself until I get the oil changed and tires rotated tomorrow.
    I gotta wonder what our wives comments would be after reading some of the long threads like this one. I can assure you there would be an intervention on my behalf if this heated discourse were say at a family cookout. But hey boys will be boys, and Accord owners are a passionate lot.
    This car does have characteristics unlike any other I've driven, and I'm 52 years old. I wonder if Honda doesn't have some mild reprogramming in store for us during our first service call. I'll find out soon enough. In light of all this I would buy the car again, and while it may not have the most get up and go, be it thru gradual increases in speed our full on mashing it if we aren't careful out there with all the traffic on the roads these days we could pose a danger either to ourselves or others and at the very least our wallets thru insurance surcharges.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I wonder if Honda doesn't have some mild reprogramming in store for us during our first service call.

    I'd sure hope so with the transmission issue (not downshifting).
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Thank you for your intelligent, well considered, and insightful post dpmeersman. And you are right about the wives - mine sometimes is annoyed with my presence on these boards, but I tell her it is interesting - and it usually is when I find myself in an exchange with someone like yourself. She would not be happy with the exchange I have otherwise had. You never do know who you are involved with here - anything they say can be totally bogus - who would ever know? In your case, you know whereof I speak as a fellow owner, and I do know you are an owner from your own other explanations of your VCM experiences as I remember them from your earlier postings! :D Perhaps we need to start a Honda VCM club where VCM owners can exchange experiences, thoughts on driving techniques, etc.

    I am not in the habit of having to literally stomp on an accelerator to get a transmission to downshift, but instead, like you, to simply press it to the floor and get the desired response - like Scotty, full warp speed!!! Not good when there is a delay in response.

    Would I buy the car again? Perhaps, but not without having given the Camry a shot and test driven one, and not bought the Accord on blind faith in Honda engineeers. Its acceleration is quicker, there are no VCM issues, it has a 6 speed tranny, turns lower RPMS/mph in top gear, and according to the EPA, I believe you only give up 1 MPG versus the Accord with VCM. The VCM V6 is reasonably quick when needed, but I think the editor of Edmunds got it right when he said it was lacking in power - it IS a V6, and a Honda V6 to boot - which historically have actually had better than advertised HP.

    You are right about driving this car with one further comment - I believe it is different enough in its responsiveness from past experiences with non-VCM engines that we COULD pose a danger to ourselves or others - making a move to pass someone with rapidly moving traffic coming up from behind, only to call to the engine room for MORE POWER and have the transmission do what mine did! :sick: Not a good thing. And I do generally, unfortunately (but it is the nature of llving in the NYC metropolitan area), drive in heavy traffic having to make quick acceleration and deceleration moves. Looks like I simply have to adjust my driving style to the quirks of the car! Otherwise, like I said - the annoying cruising behavior is either gone or become unnoticeable because of my becoming accustomed to it - but I don't think the latter is the case because my wife no longer notices it either. She loves the car and thinks it was plenty of power. Guess I am like Tim "The Toolman" Taylor :P when it comes to power - never enough!! :) I wish it were more immediately responsive, but I'll adjust. Or maybe as you suggest, Honda has some secret service adjustment they'll perform when we take it in for that first servicing!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I have no idea why you folks are engaged in this argument. If an owner accepts that a dealership says certain behavior is normal and does not wish to pursue it at another dealership, that is certainly his prerogative. There's no need to keep badgering him about what he said or didn't say, should or should not be experiencing and should or should not be doing about it.

    Just let it go.

    As for who can and cannot post here, certainly no one is required to own an 08 Accord with VCM to post here. But IMHO those who do not should respectfully back off if someone is reporting certain experiences you find dubious in a car you've never driven. That only makes sense in my mind.

    Let's move on, please.
  • dpmeersmandpmeersman Member Posts: 275
    What are members thoughts about changing the oil filter with the first oil change. I've always changed the filter with the oil and find it odd that Honda wants to change it every other oil change. Perhaps not the best analogy but I wouldn't consider using a coffee filter twice. Is this just another Green move to cut down on hazardous waste disposal? Your thoughts on this matter are appreciated.
    Pat please allow a little latitude in posting this here as I'm trying to get responses before tomorrow and I'm not sure how many people will respond from the maintenance forum where I've also posted this message. Thanks
  • doc_hollidaydoc_holliday Member Posts: 1
    Hi All,

    I have been lurking here a while reading what everyone is saying about the VCM-equipped Accord. I have less than 1000 miles on mine at the moment and have noticed some rough transitions between VCM and non-VCM modes, especially on the highway. I find it virtually unnoticeable when cruising around town. I also find it seems to be worse when the engine/car is cold, e.g., I parked mine at the airport for a week and when driving home I especially noticed the rumbling sensation when the VCM kicked in. After warming up a while it seemed to get better. I agree with the acceleration issue, it takes quite a heavy foot to get the tranny to downshift, when it does it seems to take off pretty well. Anyone tried manually dropping it into D3 via the shift lever? PITA I know, but I might experiment a bit. All in all, I sure would like to have a button to switch it off when I wanted to.

    Doc
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Not replacing the oil filter is certainly a paradigm shift for many car owners. But keep in mind that....

    1. Modern engine tooling and tolerances are significantly improved today. "Back in the day," they recommended an early oil change to purge the engine of impurities and engine remnants. Those days are over. Break in periods are still also recommended in the owners manuals, but they are less emphasized since the cars are ready to go out of the box.

    2. Today's engines rely on greater computer diagnostics to measure its running condition, as well as the condition of the oil. Again, "back in the day" we were told to change the oil and filter every 3000 miles (perhaps to increase the revenues of service depts and quick lube shops). Today, that is a waste of fossil fuels and is unnecessary in most circumstances.

    3. The engine oil that comes in the car's crankcase from the original factory has additives to help it "seal in" the engine. This obviously improves long term durability of the engine. Ironically, you can go up to 10,000 miles before the first oil change is needed on a brand new car. Again, a paradigm shift.

    4. For decades, Honda only warrantied their engines for 3 years, 36,000 miles. Two years ago, the powertrain warranty was improved to 5 years, 60,000 miles. Honda was one of the last companies to increase their warranties to such a standard. With that enhancement in mind, it makes me less nervous that they no longer require the filter to be changed with every oil change.

    5. We also know factually and anecdotally that cars are lasting much longer due to improved quality and design. People are also keeping their cars longer today, and this is attributable to improved quality, at least relative to major mechanical breakdown. It is no longer unusual for a car to last 200,000 or miles, provided you take care of it.

    6. Most (all?) new Hondas come with a computerized "maintenance minder" system which emits regular messages that are hard for the average owner to turn off. So, the frequency of Hondas being taken to the service dept is up, just because the darned messages keep popping up. That means Honda service depts see cars more frequently, improving the odds of identifying in-warranty and out-of-warranty problems. So, one can argue that not changing the filter is merely the responsible thing to do, without sacrificing the frequency of service dept visits.

    So, I'm really not that frosted that Honda no longer recommends changing the filter with every pit stop. Three times in my life (out of 20+ cars owned), I purchased an extended warranty. I never had a claim on any of them, so in my book an extended warranty is a dubious purchase. I would have been better off to take the money and bought a CD with it.

    I have almost 45,000 miles on my Odyssey with the original version of VCM. No resonance issues or problems with my van. The van runs well and it averages around 21~22 mpg, which ain't bad for a 4500 pound vehicle frequently toting 5~6 screaming teenagers.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    Yo Doc,

    I wish you were an Auto.Md and could do a house call on my car..

    Here is the drill. While I know others are experiencing all sorts of issues, I started this thread so feel I have a solid level of experience and time on the road with this new model and observations from reading all 1400 posts. Now in no way does this make me an authority, however I think I can honestly say I was one of the first to raise the VCM issue up on about any board I could find only 2 weeks after buying the car off the first production run. I have 12,000 miles on it and I will agree with you that in city driving its is not as hyperactive as highway driving. I think this is due to the constant speed changes typical with city driving, I think this simply masks the behavior that is more prevelant on Highway operation (steady state). The car demonstrates two distinct deficit behaviors in my opinon. Constant cylinder mode changes that result in that pumping, lurching sensation and the vibration that occurs when in 3 cyl mode. neoither can be fixed unless Honda steps up to 1. acknowdleding publicy these traits , or 2. Reprograms the computuer controlled operation of the VCM.

    The best choice is a simple override button that the driver can have. Been screaming for this for 6 mos.

    when you layer the vibration, surging on top of very firm (i feel uncomfortable seating), your simply left with a non typical honda accord experience. its a bummer for sure.

    we continue to fight with honda for something reasonable....

    Great looking car with loads of great features but over shadowed by its feel on the road especially on highway. btw when in Cruise Control I feel ZERO surging or lurching still.. the car parents the throttle better then me I guess, but there is something to that for sure no matter how steady I hold my foot off CC

    Golfr
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    btw when in Cruise Control I feel ZERO surging or lurching still.. the car parents the throttle better then me I guess, but there is something to that for sure no matter how steady I hold my foot off CC

    Has the dealership checked the Drive by Wire? Maybe the signal sent from the Accelerator to the Drive by Wire is fluctuating (even when you hold your foot steady), and causing the VCM to constantly change modes.

    Just something I thought of when I read your statement. :confuse:
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Thank you Pat.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    Honda VCM system is controlled by the car computer (ECU); The VCM take a lot of input from different sensors, one of them is the throttle, and since this one is not cable operated like the old ones, it’s electronically operated (very sensitive); any changes in the throttle position will lead to the (ECU) to activate or deactivate 2 or 3 cylinders. This is why the VCM keep changing its operation, and this behavior annoys some people. Honda needs to change the software that operate the VCM, in a way that the computer use only the speed sensor information and the gears sensor; this will limit the usage of the VCM to only highway driving. In stop and go traffic you need all the power you can get to move the car from stand still, whether you’re driving a 4 cylinder car or 6 cylinder car, the same energy is needed to move the car from 0 to 30 MPH in a specific time.
    This is physiques talking; for example (you have a 3800 lbs car, that you need to move from 0 to 30 MPH in 6 seconds; for the I4 case the engine RPM will be 60% higher than the RPM for the V6 to accomplish the same thing. This means that the I4 will burn almost the same amount of gas as the V6 to move this car from 0 to 30 MPH in 6 seconds). This analogy will give you an idea about the uselessness of the VCM in stop and go traffic. But Honda need to change the software that control the gear changes (grade logic it keep changing gears), and change the software that control the VCM.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    This is quite comparable to my experience (now at ~ 3,500 miles), except that I would not say it is "virtually unnoticeable when cruising around time." I agree that the rough transitions b/w VCM and non-VCM modes are far more noticeable on the hwy than in town, but I suspect that is because those transitions occur primarily at hwy speeds. As others have reported, I feel those transitions mostly in the 60-72 mph range. On the other hand, gear shifts are much smoother at the higher speeds (presumably b/c there aren't that many of them). In-town, I feel that the gear shifts (both up and especially down) are incredibly rough, especially at around 21-22 mph and 37-38 mph (the lower one being somewhat worse).

    I have tried the manual shifting into D3 as you suggest, but only in-town at the lower speeds and it does seem to have a slight, but nevertheless perceptible, positive effect on the harsh 21-22 mph shifting. But if I wanted to do my own shifting, I would have bought a stick.

    As you will see if you scroll through the past posts, I have raised these issues with Honda of America as well as the dealer, and the line is that the car is operating as intended -- which may in fact be the case, though it certainly calls into question what the intent is, so to speak. The assistant service manager at the dealer said Honda changed the operation of the transmission for the 08s to make the shifts more noticeable. I have no idea why it would do so (nor did he), but that's what he said. Long story short, don't expect to get any relief voluntarily from Honda.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    Nope... they dont want to deal with me anymore,, they just want me to go away....
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They can want you to all they want, but I'd still keep trying, or try a new dealer?

    You've been through an awful lot, I know!
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    I have followed golfrski's travails with great interest having at one time shared many of the same experiences with my car, and I can only empathize and express my condolences at this point. I am afraid his relatively high mileage is going to be a deterrent to any satisfactory outcome for him. His "revenge"? Just write a letter to Honda with a picture of himself in front of his new Camry, vowing to never buy another Honda again. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Having been through all that, nobody could blame him.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    He has most certainly been abused and put through the wringer by Honda - not something they should take any pride in.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I'm still trying to understand how your car just suddenly "cured" itself. Mechanically, that is not a typical or logical outcome. Assuming you had a vivid vibration traced to a faulty engine mount, breakdown in cylinder operation, drive by wire issue, wheel/tire issue, suspension problem, grade logic, etc....

    If it were me I would try to analyze what may have caused the issue in the first place, and then understand what made it all magically go away. Did your Honda service dept acknowledge the vibration when it was there in the first place? Did they say it was "normal" or did they even feel it? Do they know that the car no longer exhibits the vibration? Is that development considered "normal"? It strikes me that your issue is not so much that the problem went away, but exactly why that happened. Your experience is different from those who say VCM works, and those who are stewing in "VCM hell." Your mileage has indeed varied from everyone else's. Strange. But still somehow troublesome.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    It is as much a mystery to me as well. It seems no one has any answers. Honda's answer to every complaint is - it is normal. So is it normal for it to disappear? And you think I am going to now ponder WHY it happened. You can lose sleeep over it if you wish, not me..All I know and care is that its noticeable "acitivy" is much reduced and that is all I care about.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I disagree that "Honda's answer to every complaint is - it is normal." I have had numerous issues over the years, and although Honda is far from perfect, have found service depts to genuinely want to figure out the problem. Their first step is to try to replicate the problem. And then diagnose it. Many Honda employees also own and drive Hondas. I have not experienced the cavalier attitudes that some have outlined in the face of what they say are VCM breakdowns.

    The handful of complaints being detailed on this board are not subtle or open to interpretation. They appear to be outright defects. Where I get lost is that these people are being told that these experiences are also "normal." Something doesn't add up.

    I'm glad your issue cured itself. I hope for your sake that it is a permanent fix.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    "Honda's answer to every complaint is - it is normal" - this was in reference to their responses to those of us who have had complaints about the VCM - as evidenced by their posts here.

    Do you own a 2008 V6 with VCM? Have you asked a dealer about any of the issues owners have had here? Contrary to your experiences with Honda, and I dare say for most of us this is certainly not our first Honda so contrary to ours as well, the standard answer seems to be - it's "normal". I also dare say that, frankly, the complexity of the components that make up the VCM technology in this engine is beyond the capabilities of the service departments to diagnose and correct. I think that is where the disconnect is that - "doesn't add up". But that is my opinion. As previously explained by me here, I believe my layman wife's thought processes are probably as close to the mark as you can get - the active engine mounts simply took a little while to get broken in, and dpmeersman seems to confirm that with his/her experiences as well. "Where I get lost" is where people who either do not own a 2008 V6 with VCM, or those who do but have been fortunate enough to have no problems, advising or questioning those who have with comments like yours:

    "Their first step is to try to replicate the problem. And then diagnose it. Many Honda employees also own and drive Hondas. I have not experienced the cavalier attitudes that some have outlined in the face of what they say are VCM breakdowns."

    Do you think we have all not tried this? I mean really, come on, comments like that are insulting to our intelligence.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Absolutely no intent on my part to insult anyone's intelligence. I also wasn't trying to dole out advice. Was just asking questions. There is a mild level of controversy over VCM based on the handful of comments on this board. There are clearly some different viewpoints. It is what it is.

    It's irrelevant whether or not I own a VCM-equipped Accord. My wife will be replacing her 2005 RL in the next 12 mos., hence my interest in considering the purchase of a VCM-equipped Accord or RL or TL. This is an open forum and we should encourage honest, intelligent, and respectful dialogue.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    cstiles - there is no question you are very knowledgeable and your sharing that knowledge about Honda and its VCM use worldwide was very interesting and enlightening.

    However, I refer you to Pat's post 1433, wherein he/she says:

    "As for who can and cannot post here, certainly no one is required to own an 08 Accord with VCM to post here. But IMHO those who do not should respectfully back off if someone is reporting certain experiences you find dubious in a car you've never driven. That only makes sense in my mind."

    Therefore, your statement - "It's irrelevant whether I own a VCM-equipped Accord today." is totally incorrect.

    I do agree with you though about "respectful dialogue" - something which, while you may not have realized it, you were not conducting when you started into your little speech about problem diagnosis. That was not asking questions as you suggest..

    My conclusions about VCM based on what I have read from owners on this forum? Its being advertised by Honda as "seamless and not noticeable by the passengers" is a manufacturing ideal that seems incapable of being met 100% on the assembly line. There are cars with varying degrees of compliance with that engineering goal - some perfect immediately, as witnessed by those expressing complete satisfaction with their cars; some mildly not, like mine, dpmeersman, doc holliday and others, with their noticeable surging and going into and out of ECM 6-4-3 and back again quite frequently at highway speeds, using cruise control or not, as also noted by the WSJ reviewer, and with slow accelerator response as noted by the Edmunds editor; then there are those with severe vibration problems like sunnfun and golfrski. Then too, there are some whose cars "cleared up" after an extended break in period - myself and dpmeersman seemingly included to date. I have no answers, nor do the Honda service departments with which I have spoken. Maybe all my lights are working but the system isn't and it is a V6 all the time, thus my low fuel economy? No - it is right in line with Edmunds' long term test car.

    All in all a very complex link of ECMs, Active Engine Mounts, Grade logic transmission, throttle by wire and other mechanisms intended to accomplish what - fuel savings? Honda has several models with 4 cylinder engines capable of that, including the just as luxurious EXL. Why not simply build a 6 speed transmission with a taller overdrive?

    I think it is very clear from the experiences of V6 VCM owners here that the lesson to be learned for a prospective buyer as you indicate you are, is to road test the very car you will buy, because the severity of the unpleasantness of VCM seems to vary considerably from car to car. As the owner of an Odyssey with VCM you cannot anticipate the same operation from this engine - it is a different system and more complicated with the three modes of operation in a much lighter vehicle.

    Unlike my first 1980 Accord, this one is NOT a simple car. In fact it seems to me Honda chose the most complicated and convoluted way possible to try to improve economy that a simple 6th speed tall overdrive geat in the tranny would have accomplished.

    And get the extended warranty! :D
    Good luck.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Let's move on. I think you are taking these posts a bit too personally as well as emotionally. Let's focus on the cars and less on the people on this forum. We can agree to disagree and that's totally okay.
  • bug4bug4 Member Posts: 370
    cstiles - have you ever given a detailed review of your wife's RL? If so, could you post it on the RL forum -- if not, would you be willing to take the time to give it a review. Of course, I think we can all agree its a good car (regardless of its failure in the market-place). So, I'm more interested in the "bads" than the "goods." I think the current RL is one of the coooooolest vehicles on the road. It is just so damn understated - yet, IMHO, very classy. I've always thought it might be like getting to drive an S-Class MB without having to put up with the three-prongs on your front hood. I've toyed with the idea of purchasing one and, if the remodeled RL is something I don't like, it might be a great opportunity to step into an 08 RL at a low price. I'd love to hear from someone who appreciates Honda-level vehicles but has experience with the flagship of the Acura brand.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Please do not quote me like this. If there is a need for what I've said to be repeated or paraphrased anywhere, I will do it, trust me.

    I think it is important that the folks here who are experiencing the VCM issues be careful not to assume they are being criticized when people offer different thoughts and suggestions. As I've noted, this is an open discussion. If you feel offended by a point of view, then really, the best thing to do would be to move on. Bickering back and forth doesn't help anyone at all, least of all the people involved.

    If you feel like a post is out of line, absolutely feel free to drop me an email and I will review it as soon as I can.

    Thanks everyone!!
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    If you page back to the Acura RL discussion, I am on there from back in 2006/2007. There was a lot of discussion when the car was introduced, and it even won a comparo on Edmunds against the Infiniti M and Lexus GS. There are also many comments if you scroll back to the "Luxury Performance Sedans" discussion. But I'll put a new review out there if you are interested. I agree with your comments on this car. It did poorly because it was overpriced at $49K, Acura simply does not have the "cache" to compete with Lexus or even Infiniti, and the car lacked a V8. But technically it is a very slick and competent car. And you can get a great deal on one because they did so poorly in the market. But I'll put something out there....thanks for asking. Pat---sorry to take up space here. My bad.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    Thanks everyone...... all I can say is that in my entire adult life, I have always felt "if you do the right thing, the right outcome will occur".. Very "polly anna" of me I know. Honda is a miss here. I am a perfect example of the "what if". What if I am not satisfied, What if the car has known issues, what if, what if and then NOW WHAT? All Honda needed to do was either A. acknowledge to me in private that my car is a miss or B. simply allow me to move out of the vehicle right away after I purchased it.. I even suggested moving up into an Acura line at the fair additional cost staying in the Honda "family" and they blew me off on that as well. As many of you know and have followed my case with honda and experiences I have always suggested that something was juts not right and that all I wanted Honda to do was to "do the right thing" for us as we have done for them for almost 20 years... over the last 20 years I have have numerous chances to choose a competitors product, but I never did. I stayed loyal to Honda and evangelized the Honda accord to about everyone I met.

    My experience while maybe not "normal" should illustrate what can happen in an instance like this... while many people are enjoying the car and are on their way down the highway at this moment with no real concern, I am not, and it is the "instances" or "exceptions" that a customer will experience that define the company in which we choose... in this case Honda failed my family and for that, they lost me as a customer and as an evangelist for their automobiles. While that may seem insignificant to Honda out of the total population of sales they have or will have, its a tangible, and impactful deficit for them. Not simply from my loss as a customer but for all the people I will come into contact with that i will share my personal experience with...my referrals are no more and that is my decision and right as a consumer. A sad commentary to what I have felt for 20 years was such a wonderful company, I am sorry to say my experience and outcome proves differently.

    we are still waiting for Honda to do the right thing, taking smaller breaths as opposed to holding it,,, soon we will sell the car, trade it etc and this will be a closed case for me.. I will then move over to another forum and hopefully talk about my satisfaction with a competitors product.
Sign In or Register to comment.