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Honda Accord VCM

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Comments

  • ezshift5ezshift5 Member Posts: 858
    .....and the 6spd coupe, which replaced my 2003 6spd.

    ...stiles dude,

    ......VCM unrelated, but if you'd post your fuel usage numbers over in the MPG area, I'll buy you a drink should you visit our left coast.............

    best, ez.....
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Just curious, why would you bother test driving a car you had no intension of buying?

    I get people once in awhile that do that and I can never understand this. Just seems like such a waste of time for them and for me.

    Not a slam, just curious.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, since that's not really relevant to this discussion, perhaps you could pursue that in a more appropriate forum.

    To everyone: we've gotten sidetracked with the personal arguments again. Let's get back to the subject of the VCM and drop the attacks on other members, please.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Uhm, I like cars, and obviously like Hondas. Is that enough reason? I currently have 4 of them in my garage, and have owned various Hondas dating back to 1982.

    When I test drove the VCM Accord, I had already read several reviews on the car, so I knew it had the technology on board. And I have a 2006 Odyssey with VCM. During the test drive, I noticed the ECO light and VCM kicking in, but it was not that noticeable, and I also wasn't paying that much mind to it, probably because I was also not in the market to buy one. The VCM was also the 3rd of 4 Accords I drove (I had to order the 6spd, so actually put down a deposit before I could even drive one), and the 1st two didn't have it.

    Another reason I test drove the car was because in about a year, we will replace my wife's Acura RL, and the new Accord is one candidate.

    ezshift---I am averaging 19.8 mpg in my 6spd, with 3400 miles on the odo. It gets about 16~17 in town and about 26~27 on the freeway. Of course, this car does not have VCM.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    "I am averaging 19.8 mpg in my 6spd, with 3400 miles on the odo. It gets about 16~17 in town and about 26~27 on the freeway. Of course, this car does not have VCM."

    The car doesn't have a trip computer that measures these things (which is frankly something that the EX model should have), but I would say based on two measurements I've done in recent fillups that I'm getting almost identical mileage with the VCM, with almost exactly the same number of miles. (City driving at any rate; I haven't yet done a long road trip to measure freeway miles.) Interesting.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    with VCM. Not impressed at all. Its not seamless, but that wouldnt keep me from getting one. I noticed on the highway that when the vcm is engaged, keeping my foot in one position is not enough to maintain speed. My speed will increase by several mph byt doing that. So, I let my foot off the gas, slow down, eco light goes off, apply my foot to pedal, eco light comes on and I cycle through the process again. Highly annoying. I also had an 05 Hemi Magnum that did a similar thing on the highway. All for what? 2 to 3 mpg more? Not worth it for all the extra driver input that was required. That was my experience.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    "Let's talk about the car, my friend"

    Oh, I agree. And let's quote road tests and represent facts accurately.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    The car is sub par and highly dissapointing from an "operational" perspective @ $30K. Honda misrepresents the VCM operation and funcionality from a driver awareness perspective. Sorry honda and current honda lovers, but its true... this car is a miss.

    Golfr
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Sorry honda and current honda lovers, but its true... this car is a miss.


    I think you should say MY car is a miss. Not all VCM Accord owners feel the same as you.
  • dpmeersmandpmeersman Member Posts: 275
    I agree with elroy. I feel Honda has misrepresented the VCM activity, and think less of them for not acknowledging that. But this car still holds it's own against it's competitors, and given Honda's reliability and re-sale value I still feel it's the one to purchase over the Altima's and Camry's. I know some still have a problem with the overall look of the car, but I think the visuals of the exterior are great and such a departure from their usual designs. I still feel I made an intelligent purchase and got a lot of car for my $27K.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    "Sorry honda and current honda lovers, but its true... this car is a miss."

    huh? How can you possibly speak for others? elroy is spot on...not all vcm owners are going to post like experiences to mine.

    For example, road noise doesnt bother me as much as perhaps another poster. My 06 pilot has plenty of that, but that aspect wouldnt keep me from buying another one. However if the 09 vcm Pilot behaves like the vcm Accord, all bets are off. Ill keep my 06.
  • packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    Like I said threads ago if your going to buy a car, keep the radio off the windows up and tell the salesman in the car with you not to say a word while your driving the car unless you ask him to. Also don't test drive the car with anybody else in the car thats a major distraction. After you read the threads and test drive the car of choice you will then have an idea what to look for and what you can live with.
  • shinbone1shinbone1 Member Posts: 9
    I'm not an Odyssey owner yet, but I hope to have a new Touring by the end of June. My question is: can the the tranny be locked in 4th gear while driving around town, thereby preventing an up-shift into overdrive? And if so, will driving in fourth gear over-ride the VCM and keep the engine working on all six cylinders?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    No, the transmission can be put in Drive (normal), D3 (operates as a three speed automatic, with 1-2-3), 2 (locks in 2nd gear), and 1 (locks in first gear).

    The van won't go into 5th gear much before 45 MPH anyway, so I don't see the point of needing to lock in 4th, after driving a 2005 Odyssey extensively.
  • csrexlv6csrexlv6 Member Posts: 1
    I've had my new EX-L V6 for two weeks now after trading in my 2004 V6, so here are my thoughts in no particular order:

    Positive:
    #1 The ride is much smoother.
    #2 The steering ratio is much better for parking, even on a slightly bigger car.
    #3 Little bit more power is always nice for avoiding stupid drivers while trying to merge on to the highway here in Dallas, the city of driving idiots! However, the 2004 wasn't bad, either.
    #4 Interior is more along the lines of a luxury car. Woodgrain is a nice compliment.
    #5 Exterior styling. I hated it when it first came out, probably because I loved the '04 styling better than any of the previous/successive versions, but it has grown on me like a weed.
    #6 Sunroof controls. Like the one-touch control.
    #7 Better range on the garage door HomeLink system.
    #8 Driving lights with auto lighting, along with fog lamps. Fog's were an option back in the '04 days, but standard now on my version.

    Negative:
    #1 Master volume control. The bigger knob on the instrument panel should have been inverted from the smaller control to control the audio system as sometimes the steering wheel volume control is not sufficient to turn the sound down quickly. I've got used to it, but still.
    #2 Climate controls. I liked the old dial controls for this better than the up/down controls as it takes longer to adjust the settings. Also takes your eyes off the road for a longer period of time because of the delay.
    #3 Adjustable driver right-side arm rest. Too much room between my right elbow/arm and resting my right hand on the shifter (no, I'm not a midget). Love my '04 in that respect.
    #4 The car wash that scratched my clear coat and window tint yesterday. Not happy.

    No matter what, I like this version better than my previous V6. Isn't that what a new car is all about?

    CSR
  • ladyleahladyleah Member Posts: 5
    I am totally in love with my EXl V6 w/navi (just bought it on Friday last week!) in almost every way. However, the VCM surge is really not cool. I thought I was going insane until I found the VCM forum. Golf's original post describes exactly what is happening. I live in northern NJ where there are hills everywhere-- and the ECO light almost turns into a strobe light with its clicking on and off constantly (and surges as well of course). It makes Route 80 driving quite unpleasant. It happens with cruise control as well, but maybe a little less. I only have about 115 miles on it.

    Going to the dealer tomorrow for "tests"--will be sure to update everyone. :cry:
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    Dont waste your time,, I will save you the gas. Honda will tell you its normal and will do nothing about it TRUST ME.

    They can test till the cows come home, but this is "how the VCM is designed to operate". They need to change the advertising from "seamless and goes unnoticed" to "Maddening and drives you insane"

    take the car back before its too late, get the EXL with navi loaded in the 4 cyl.. you will thank me later. engine is still peppy and the fog lights are only abit less attractive as an option

    Golf
  • ladyleahladyleah Member Posts: 5
    Golf- I was under the impression that I couldn't do that without "trading" it in...which would cost me some serious $$! Do you know something I don't!?

    I am actually not going in until next week now anyways....but I suspect that exactly what you just stated will happen.

    I will just pray that the thing smooths out after 3K like others have said----or I need to get REALLY zen and learn to love the surges. :(
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    Well, I would demand they look at it asap,, I would talk to the Service manager ( whom btw I predict will almost certainly tell you.."I havent heard any complaints about that, this is news to me, you are the only one") Mmm Hmmmmmmmm

    I would ask to talk to the District honda Rep and explain your dissatisfaction. In the end Honda will give you the party line about this... you will really need to lean on your Honda dealership to make you happy. That I am afraid, will most likely be another car before the miles get too high to sell... make your decision quickly and do the full court press now at the dealer level....

    I think you will find my experience consistent with others that have had the same level of frustration with the car...in the end, Honda has not solved my/their problem

    I really know of only one person who's VCM surging, lurching disappeared and while I dont doubt their experience I would bet my car, they just got used to it, the car didnt auto correct itself.. its is design to do what it does. the VCM "shock" (as Honda is now calling it ). ( btw anyone hear of that term in the advertising or literature??? nope think not,,, but guess what, it now has an official title/label) is a by-prduct of the VCM technology,, you either love it or hate it I am afraid.

    If you hate it now,,, buckle in for a long road trip down Disdain Ave...."in my opinion"
  • ladyleahladyleah Member Posts: 5
    Hmmm...

    Thanks for the info. Were you able to trade your for the 4 cyl?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm not trying to speak for golf, but I don't think they have gotten rid of the V6 yet, based on my following this forum. If they have, I don't know it.

    golf's been getting a terrible runaround for awhile now with the dealer for his V6.
  • abeebabeeb Member Posts: 25
    Golf,

    Besides ljgbjg's experience with his car "healing" inself, I also have noticed a decrease in the VCM surge and vibrating activity in my car to a point where at times I would also consider it to be gone. Then I'll feel a slight surge (like today) and I know it's still around, just not nearly where it had been. It is definitely better than what it was a few months ago. I now have about 11K on it. Overall, I LOVE my car!

    I do not think that we are just getting used to it as you suggested may be the case with ljgbjg. I feel I am still very sensitive to what the car is doing and am always monitoring the feel of it. I do think that whatever ECM/mounts/transmission sensors, etc. are combining to either interact "seamlessly" (as is the case in most cars out there) or with the annoying surges/vibrations, there is a high probability that these parameters can move closer into "sync" over time, thus reducing the problem. This would explain my experience and others perhaps. However, by the same token, if this is the case, then those who currently are not experiencing any problems could have their fortunes reversed over time...!
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    For the last poster NO, Honda has not allowed me to trade my car to a 4cyl. I offered very early on and they stonewalled me. In fact i offered all sorts of options to them which were totally reasonable and they bl;ew us off.

    I had a buddy of mine who is a car fanatic... With my car when driving in Cruise Control i DO NOT feel any VCM surging at all....on the inverse when using the gas pedal.. no matter how much I concentrate on zero movement the VCM is hyperactive. My buddy thinks the drive by wire / throttle is simply to sensitive.

    The vibration is another story... the dealer has finally admitted in writing to us that the vibration exsists a huge step in this sage.. however I dont see Honda doing anything about it, .. as far as the VCM decreasing in strength, I had another mechanic tell me that as you drive the car the fuel injectors will naturally build up carbon thus decreasing the VCM activity as a possibility.. not sure on that one but he is a mechanical engineer and has worked in the auto industry for 30 years.. his guess is as good as any I would think?

    Golf
  • ss4osuss4osu Member Posts: 1
    I have been reading these posts for over three months, while I have been shopping for my Accord. I test drove three different V6's, and never felt any type of surging on any of my five test drives. I bought my EX-L V6 last week and, once again, feel nothing except normal sensations that I have always felt with every car I have ever driven. I love the Accord so far, and I wonder how widespread these surges are, can a few cars out of 10,000's really be that different from the rest? I did test drive the 190 hp and was driven crazy by the whining of the engine - it didn't compare to the V6 at all in my opinion. I do hope that all issues get worked out, Honda should be willing to admit that possibly a few of their cars could be "off".
  • rscharscha Member Posts: 12
    I had the same experience as ss4osu I saw this post and almost changed my order to a 4cyl. I did not like the noise and then drove the 6 again for about 40 miles and then drove 4 different 6cyl cars and felt nothing unpleasant. I have the car now for over 3K miles and love the way it drives. I use cruise control with no issues and find it very powerful and to handle very well. I even live in NJ with a lot of hills and its not an issue for me.

    The 4cyl felt loose and had a lot of body roll in the front end. The cars did not compare it was like an Acura TL compared to a Hundai. Someone said that they believe that 30% of the cars have the problem I can't imagine that so many people can have such different experiences with the same car. This thread actually made me nuts looking to find a symptom of what other have expereneced but have not found any consistant issues at all.
  • gnomegnome Member Posts: 7
    I,too, have been following the sad reports about VCM induced surges and vibrations but I've had nothing of that kind in my 5000 miles with my 2008 EX-L V6 coupe. In fact, my car is a delight to drive, giving me a smooth surge of power when I call for it. I'm not mesmerized by the ECO but when I glance at it occasionaly it seems to be reporting what I sense -- nothing unusual at all. This is my third Accord coupe in recent years and I continue to smile behind the wheel. No troubles whatsoever. So if readers of these posts are put off by reports of VCM problems, let them reflect on the numerous (based on healthy Accord sales records) satisfied buyers. I'm one. Gnome
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    the issue resides primarily in the 08 V6 sedans as opposed to the coupe's. I havent really seen any coupe owners have any significant VCM concerns out there... so good for you, you seem to be a lucky one.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Well, for what it's worth (probably zilch), I drove 2 V6 sedans last weekend at my Honda dealer for about an hour. Good thing they like me since these are the 5th and 6th Accords I've test driven, without buying any of them. I had one extended drive without the salesman for about 40 minutes. The 2nd one was with salesman on board, for another 20 minutes. Drove the cars in town, on country roads, at a steady 45-55 on a parkway, and all the way between 60mph and 90mph on the freeway. Steady acceleration---nothing radical or stupid. Varied my speeds on open freeways to try to induce the VCM to kick on and kick off. Tried it with/without cruise. With/without A/C. With/without traction control. No radio, just the engine. Even shifted to neutral a couple times at speed just to see what would happen. A total of around 55 miles driven in the 2 cars.

    The ECO light came on a bunch. I felt some harmonic resonance and cylinder deactivation/activation between 50 and 70mph, typically when the cruise was off and a light touch on the accelerator. ECO/VCM was also triggered with the cruise on, but was less intrusive since my foot was doing less work, or unless the road elevation changed. The first car had about 30 miles on the odo, and the second was a sales manager's demonstrator with 1100 miles on it. The 2nd generation VCM is more noticeable than on my Odyssey, mostly because it kicks on/off more frequently, and engages different sets of cylinders. The resonance is similar to the Ody, but not intrusive. Neither the car or van are whisper quiet anyway. You can hear and feel the engine/tires in both, so at times that accentuates the VCM sensations, while other times it covers up VCM due to road or engine noise.

    I didn't sense any harsh surging or bucking that some have described, unless I was creating it with my own foot. Both cars also kicked down fine if I needed a lower gear. I had no issues with grade logic or drive by wire. Once your senses are tuned in, you definitely know when the VCM is doing its thing, but it's not annoying to me. It's a different sensation, and your foot learns to drive this car differently due to the VCM.

    IMO, this car is not as enjoyable to drive compared to previous Accords, primarily because it is larger with less road feel and "tossability." The car feels heavier and more substantial. But my 6spd coupe feels heavier and more substantial compared to my 2003 6spd, too. The throttle feel is more mechanical (drive by wire?), and the sensation is less engaging. But it still has that familiar, firm Honda ride that you don't find in a Toyota or even Nissan.

    Based on 55 miles of varied driving, I was left with a "ho hum" reaction and felt none of the bad stuff that some have described on these boards. Compared to my previous Accords, this car feels less connected or intuitive. Maybe it's the VCM and drive by wire. But it also felt like a good, solid piece of engineering with a quality feel to it. It's luxurious and huge inside. Even the steering wheel is fat. I miss the one in my previous coupe/sedan which were just the right size for me.

    Assuming VCM delivers fuel economy, I was left mostly impressed with this car. Based on the 2 VCM Accords I drove, I can't reconcile the handful of strong complaints voiced on this board.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    I know I-80 well driving out to Mountain Lakes from NYC to visit our son, and Rt 15 to Sparta. Our car was incredilbly annoying and "maddening" as the WSJ tester thought of his test car as well. My wife as passenger noticed the VCM and wondered what I was doing with the "gas" - it was on CC! The changes in topography make the VCM have to be VERY active - perhaps those who do not or have not sensed it much are foirtunate to live in areas with flat roads - and their fuel economy better for it as well? I don't know what to tell you - our car "smoothed out" after about 3000 miles - why? No idea - perhaps all the moving parts simply finally got broken in - especially the active engine mounts. Problem is golfrski is right - Honda denies there are any problems and I am sure you will get the answers he got - I know I did - so if there are none, how can they disappear? There is no question for anyone who understands engines and harmonics that going from a V6 to a V4 to an inline 3 is going to create all kinds of balance chaos that will be impossible NOT to feel unless offset somehow by dampers, etc. - thus the Active Engine Mounts. I have to believe logically that they are the biggest culprit for anyone having vibration or "surging" issues, but Honda's denial goes nowhere toward helping resolve anything.. All I can say is I hope your car "breaks in" like ours did - it is not, as someone suggested that it is no longer noticeable - believe me no one is more "in tune" with their car than I am - and it was driving me nuts. I can sense a spark plug misfiring at 60MPH, a stone in a tire, a bubble in a sidewall of a tire, etc. No, there was a definite change in the car and I say it was the AEM. We'll never know though because " the car was operating within normal design".
    Only one person on this board got their car replaced - a coupe in Columbia, SC by Midlands Honda and put him in a 6 speed instead. Honda's website has changed I think - it now reads that the VCM is "NEARLY seamless". I do believe that is a change from earlier. If you would like I would be happy to let you drive my car and I drive yours. Just contact me through this site and my profile.
  • sunnfunsunnfun Member Posts: 168
    They did that for legal purposes. They know the lawsuits are coming. I'm hoping I'll be the first one, unfortunately it's just a slow process...I've had it with them and the cover up is starting to unravel. I guess they figure it's been a while and no one would pay attention to the marketing change. Guess again.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    They did???? Glad I kep downloaded print outs of their website, brochure and other literature. this will ceratinly help my case and I will fwd on to my supporting cast....
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    Folks, Honda indeed altered their website regarding the VCM advertising.. as I predicted they would back in November of 2007. Hopefully those of you that have filed complaints and or sought addl counsel saved your purchasing materials and advertising. It is clear Honda knew this is was not advertised properly and as such revised their marketing efforts. This is a small win for those of us that have been fighting with Honda,, on several fronts. It will be interesting to see if the WSJ, and other journalists comment on this retraction.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    WOW!!!!!!! Dead to rights!!! Here is Honda's web site from months ago about VCM -

    . To help keep engine vibration from reaching the cabin in every mode, active engine mounts automatically adjust their firmness to help absorb energy. The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.”

    TODAY??!!

    "To help keep engine vibration from reaching the cabin in every mode, active engine mounts automatically adjust their firmness to help absorb energy. The transition between the three operating modes is nearly seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers."

    TA DA!!! I think anyone unhappy with the VCM has a great case against Honda for false advertising and could rescind their purchase. A partial victory for you golfrski - that they changed their advertising is an ADMISSION that the prior advertising was incorrect and misleading. Good luck everyone - I see a huge class action here - some attorney delaing with class actions is bound to pick up on it, along with individual lawsuits.
  • bug4bug4 Member Posts: 370
    I dont' mean to put a damper on the accomplishment --- Honda clearly has realized that VCM is not seamless and has changed its advertising accordingly. However, there are several reasons this isn't going to make any difference in any lawsuit. First, it may be a "subsequent remedial measure." Public policy supports businesses doing what is right and making their products better/safer without the fear that such improvements may actually make them more liable. So, "subsequent remedial measures" are inadmissible as evidence in court. Second, advertising claims are a difficult ground for liability because of a business' ability to engage in "puffing." Puffing means that a business is allowed to say "ours is the best" without fear of assuming liability if, in fact, their product is not actually the best. Relatedly, I'm not sure anyone could show that their purchase of a 08 V6 Accord was based on the minutia of Honda's advertising. I think it unlikely that a judge or jury would believe that a class of plaintiffs would not have bought an 08 Accord if Honda's advertising would have mentioned that the VCM is "nearly seamless" rather than "completely seamless." My personal opinion is that it would be very hard to show that this advertising language was a basis for the bargain.

    My comments are not intended to be personal to your situations and I think it is an admirable accomplishment to have proof that Honda is, in fact, hearing your complaints. But if I were a class action plaintiff's attorney, I wouldn't touch this case with the proverbial ten-foot-pole.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.”


    They say it's sealess and not perceived by the passengers. It doesn't say that the driver doesn't notice it...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Isn't the driver a passenger in the vehicle?

    Merriam Webster - a traveler in a public or private conveyance
  • rkurlanderrkurlander Member Posts: 58
    I spoke with the general manager of a dealershp today. The 2009 Accords will be available August 15. The VCM issue has been addressed and hopefully fixed.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    The driver is driving. The passengers are riding.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Your post is eloquent and seemingly very learned. Are you an attorney?
    I understand the importance of "subsequent remedial measure" of correct a defect and public policy in that regard, and federal rules of evidence. Even in those cases
    evidence of subsequent remedial measures, however, is admissible in some circumstances, such as:

    To show ownership or control of the thing repaired
    To impeach a claim that no such improvements or repairs were possible before the injury occurred

    However, we are not talking about a remedial measure here - we are talking about a change of advertising. There is no public policy issue here about injury and further prevention thereof, like where a traffic light is installed at an intersection because there have been too many fatal accidents there. I would have to disagree that a court would not allow admission into evidence that Honda changed its advertising because it was wrong.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    Did the GM acknowledge that there was a VCM issue? What did he say it was? Most importantly, how, according to the GM, did Honda address and "hopefully" fix the VCM issue? Presumably, if the issue can be addressed and fixed going forward, then the same changes can be made to existing vehicles.

    Your GM's statement differs from what my dealership has told me (car operating "normally") and what other posters' dealerships have told them (same). I mean no disrespect to you or your GM, but it sounds like salesmanship to me.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    The coupe advertising about VCM remains unchanged -

    Coupe - The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.

    Sedan - The transition between the three operating modes is nearly seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.

    Could there be a separate issue here and the sedans with the problems and the coupes with none?

    Why might that be?
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    VCM issue has been addressed? How? There are no TSBs that I am aware of.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    I disagree about the impact on a lawsuit. Even assuming a change in advertising can be characterized as a "subsequent remedial measure," all that means is that that change may not be admissible in and of itself (though it still may come in to show the feasibility of precautionary measures, such as never having said "completely" in the first place). However, there is nothing to stop people from getting discovery of all the documents, including for example internal emails, on which it based its decision to change from "completely" to "nearly", as well as all documents relating to its initial decision to use the word "completely." I suspect those documents will be quite instructive.

    I also disagree that the "completely" claim is mere puffing. If it were just non-actionable puffing, why did Honda change the word to "nearly"?

    Finally, I disagree that consumers won't be able to show that they relied on this advertising in purchasing the car. The claim is hardly "minutiae." The centerpiece of Honda's print and broadcast advertising for the new Accord is achieving best fuel economy in class without sacrificing ride quality, luxury, and the like. (That was why I chose the Accord.) VCM is an integral part of that campaign. Completely seamless suggests some diminution in ride quality or the like; nearly seamless puts consumers on cue that there's a potential issue.

    A class action lawyer might or might not touch it, but the change in advertising is a potentially very useful weapon as individuals move forward in the lemon law process or in negotiating with Honda.
  • bug4bug4 Member Posts: 370
    ljgbjg and jam1000 --- excellent posts! I think it could be argued that the public policy concerns limiting the admissibility of subsequent remedial measures apply to changes in advertising, but certainly not with the same force as mechanical or design changes. I think the strongest argument would be in favor of puffing. I do believe the advertising likely would be considered puffing. As I understand it, puffing is non-actionable, even where there is reliance by the buyer. In any event, and in my experience (yes, as a commercial litigation attorney) jam1000 is correct --- often things that aren't exactly "admissible" can turn into negotiation tools. In the end, I'll bet the proper avenue for resolving the claims will be through lemon law remedies, rather than class action suits. The problems seem to be serious, but relatively few, and not necessarily homogeneous.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I would think a plaintiff attorney would need to find a sufficient-sized class of consumers who were damaged in order to justify the high cost of bringing a class action against the phalanx of defense attorneys from Honda.

    The Accord continues to sell very well, and Honda reports they underestimated the demand for V6 versions. There is a large and growing number of VCM owners out there. Plus, Honda seems intent on offering VCM on more models. If you do the math, a potentially large class certainly exists. But is it a relatively satisfied class, or a disgruntled one?

    Class action activity has been bubbling up in pockets regarding the Odyssey PAX system, which was discontinued by Honda and Michelin after 4 model years. Accord owners may want to track the trajectory of that class action to see what their odds may be with the Accord. Ironically, these PAX-equipped Odysseys also have VCM, albeit the 1st generation version. But no one seems to be suing Honda about the Ody VCM.

    I continue to search for developments, facts, and complaints outside this forum that may help corroborate the issues with VCM, but I'm not finding any. It's very odd indeed. Is anyone complaining in significant numbers about VCM in the Pilot, 06-07 hybrid Accord, or Odyssey?
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    Are you making your own assumption, or did your dealer tell you that? if so what dealer made this claim of a "fix"??
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    All I can say is, had I studied the literature, brochures etc before my purchase (as I did btw) and was told that the VCM (of which was new), was a "nearly seamless" operation, then I would have been given the fair oppty to make an more informed decision as oppsed to the inverse which was advertising and marketing that stated "COMPLETLY SEAMLESS" and a sales force of people at the dealer that reinforced it.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    find a class action attorney, exactly what are your damages???...how have you been harmed by this VCM problem???

    If it caused the car to stall on the Interstate and cause a wreck, or you lost control and ran into a tree, I could see damages...

    But aside from the ECO light coming on and off, and feeling some vibration in the car, and everybody DID test drive their vehicles prior to purchase, just what kind of major damages have you suffered???...that a Honda wasn't as quiet as your previous Hondas???

    Aside from your view that a Honda should be perfect, how have you been harmed???...is this the first car you ever bought that failed to be perfect???...have you bought a UAW car in the last 30 years???

    I understand that many of you (some of you?) are annoyed at the workings of the VCM, but have they actually caused your car to malfunction or become unsafe, or are you simply expecting something that they failed to provide, like a "seamless" car???

    Please help me understand how your VCM has injured or damaged you in any way...
  • jusvisitnjusvisitn Member Posts: 9
    Maybe not a class action suit, but what about aspects of false advertising/misrepresentation and there are Lemon laws in some states? Sure, one does a short test drive and maybe you notice something then sales person assures you it's nothing or says they do not notice what you are referring to.

    Yeah, perhaps taking them to court would be difficult. It's only, almost a $30,000 investment and just Suck-It-Up like a 'Man'. Maybe it's about ethical business practices? Doing the right thing? Stonewalling it and not acknowledging? This says more to me about big corporate Honda than anything else. They are just like every car manufacturers and the network of their dealers. One just has to find the 'Lesser of Evils', I suppose. Has not changed in all these years (but claims by some dealers, that they have supposedly changed). All the stupid game playing with 'them' when shopping/buying of vehicles. Still goes on to different degrees when I have auto shopped around these past few months.

    In Honda's Ad campaign in reference to this version of VCM (the 3 different cylinder modes operation), it has been repeatedly pointed out since the beginning of this topic, that Honda used the phrase 'completely seamless', however, as just pointed out by a poster here, they have now changed it to 'nearly seamless'.

    Here is Honda's Ad page showing that specific new phrase change ....
    nearly seamless

    Here is a PDF (2mb) 23 page 2008 Accord Sedan & Coupe brochure. On page 11 it has the original phrase ....
    completely seamless

    If one does internet searching, you may find other references to the 'completely seamless' in the online cached versions of Honda's Ads before it was changed to 'nearly seamless'.
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