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Comments
Is the variable transmission(Vti) on the various Saturns holding up?
As for the Vti. They are doing miserably. Read some of the other postings in this forum. I heard the ION was delayed in implementing it because of problems with the Vti in the vues. Save yourself the headache and go for the v-6 with the traditional hydraulic tranny. Saturn Dealers are very slow to admit the Vti has problems, but if you call them on it enough they'll usually confirm "Other dealers" have had some problems.
The impact was a side-swipe, but was enough to shatter the rear window. The amazing thing is that the paint and the Saturn side panels took it and still look like new! When I first saw it, I thought "Oh noooo", but it turns out that the paint from the RV came off and our VUE held up perfectly. So we just buffed out all the marks ourselves, and the only thing we need to do is take it in to get a new window.
Had it been my Toyota Sienna, I'm sure the metal would have caved in. That thing gets door dings if you just look at it funny.
ketch : Glad you are enjoying the VUE. Saw quite a few of them up north in cottage country this past week. I think it may come down to a VUE, Maxx or Equinox for our next vehicle.
saskheat : Congrats on the new VUE. I read a review of the CVT / VTi in CarGuide last month and they were very complimentary in the article. Have heard of a few issues for some early ones, but I think they are generally ok.
I prefer the V6 regardless though, more power is nice to have.
Can't disagree that more power is nicer but we do 95% of our mileage in the city, rarely getting over 50 mph. So the 4 will be adequate.
I almost bought the v6 anyway but decided on the 4 because of the good reputation that engine has and the fact that the current v6 was going to be discontinued. Also, I like to do most of maintenance on the vehicle and the 4 is just sooo much easier to work on.
or
2003 Kia Sedona LX w/ABS, roof rack, and rear spoiler for $20,700.
Both finance at 0 percent.
Any suggestions as to what you think is better. I can't explain simply why these two vehicles....I guess mostly because the price is in my range....and I need some room to move about but do not necessarily need a van yet (only one baby at this time)...
Any suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks.
to cause it to be discountinued. I know about the
Honda 3.5 coming
The Vue was the best deal for me. Unless you are going to do a lot of towing or off roading, the horrible gas mileage of the Sorento does not make any sense. The Sorento weighs nearly 1000 lbs more than the Vue and has about the same interior space. I did like the Sorento interior better though. Agreeing with Dindak, Saturn has the best the best service.
EMS1: WOW did you ever get a smoking deal. I wish we had the 0% financing here in Canada. I was watching the news early in the week and GM with all of its subdivisions were reporting a surplus of 300,000 new vehicles in stock over what is normal. I bet the firesale will continue when other manufacturers jump into the mele'.
Dindak: When I was in the dealership just before committing to a Vue, the salesman was telling me that Saturn was pulling the 30-Day no hassle return policy soon. He was expecting it without notice any time. I got a 30 Day-Return policy on mine and it was in writing, but others considering a new Saturn make sure you ask for it and get it in writing. I'm positive he wasn't just trying to pressure me as the return policy wasn't an issue for me in buying the vehicle and he knew it. I researched vehicles for over 6 months (driving everything) and he knew I was willing to buy a Tribute/Escape even without a return policy. His return plan was just extra Lemon insurance for me.
sask : I agree, Korean cars generally finish near the bottom of reliability surveys. Kia is worse that Hyundia. Odd they would pull the 30 day money back guaranty.
Anyway ... other than that, I'm at 31 000 clicks and still not an issue to speak of on the 4 cyl. 5 speed.
EMS1 ::: Ya, I like V6 power in an SUV. One of the reasons we went with a Vue instead of a CR-V. We bought before they had 0% so incentives were not part of our buying decision. No regrets, we love our Vue!!!!!
If the 3.5L FWD really can do about 20/28 mileage wise, it will still be a contender for our next vehicle. Another C$900 isn't going to kill me.
Dindak: Why would you want to see ABS standard on all v-6's. All it would mean is a base price increase for everyone. They're not going to throw it in for free. The bloated starting price of Small SUV's is attributed to the auto makers stuffing them full of expensive options as standard equipment, forcing the customer to take (And pay for) stuff they dont nessicarily want or need. Smart marketing from the automakers...selling everything and maximizing profits on every sale. I'd probabally fall over dead if I actually knew how much Saturn marked up the Vue by putting in the compass in the rear view mirror.
I bought a Vue and it was a huge selling point that I could get it without ABS. Why would I want to get soaked $900 for something that decreases my stopping distance. The dealers argue it also comes with traction control, but this is also a useless feature, especially in an AWD or FWD vehicle for that matter. I had my dealer bring in one specifically without ABS since I don't need it. Saturn Keep doing it like you are and offer ABS as an option, actually offer more flexibility for customers to pick options. Vehicles should be a personal choice not a cookie cutter assembly.
I would NEVER buy a vehicle with out ABS and since Saturn is a "safety conscious" company, I kind of wish they made some safety items standard on their more expensive models.
Honda wanted to get Izusu disel technology for Europe - and had extra capacity in Ohio for building the 3.5 liter engine - so Honda approached GM and a deal was struck.
The 3.5 was going to be used in a 7 passenger VUE built on a stretched version of the current VUE platform. I believe this was code name 318B. I know it was approved, till Lutz came in and canceled it. Seems the potential volume did not justify the cost.
Due to the contract already in place, Honda's 3.5 goes into the 04 VUE.
Honda has no say in what GM does with the engine as far as I know.
http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/VUE/2004/04vueoverview.shtml
240 HP @ 5400 RPM
242 TQ @ 4500 RPM
0-60 8.5 seconds
1/4 miles - 16.5 seconds
Saturn VUE - 3478 lbs (AWD 3630)
250 HP @ 5800 RPM
242 TQ @ 4500 RPM
0-60 7 seconds (est)
1/4 mile 15.2 (est)
I am a level 2 collision analyst and have been so for almost a decade. I have been to hundreds of collisions in the real world and can categorically deny based upon measurement and analysis, that ABS decreases stopping distances. This is a myth. Its usually increases stopping distances in the 5% range depending upon coefficient of friction and other variables of weather ect.
Threshold braking is the most efficient and fastest way of stopping a vehicle in average road conditions. The exception being full lock up on soft gravel. ABS Brakes PREVENT you from being able to reach the true threshold of braking and a significant amount of braking potential is lost. If you don't believe this I would like to extend an invitation for you to join me on the Skid pad and I'd be happy to demonstrate this.
ABS brakes were designed to provide one benefit and one benefit only! This benefit is the electronically controlled ability to regain control over steering effort when a person panics, slams on the brakes and they would have other wise locked the wheels up resulting in a skid. Do they give the opportunity to steer...yes. Do most people utilize it...NO! Emergency collision avoidance depends upon the ability to steer. From and analysts perspective (Without arguing the finer points) you cannot brake at MAXIMUM efficiency and steer at the same time. Laws of physics restrict this. People panicking is why ABS was invented. It gives the other half of the driving population control over steering again in a stress full situation and some braking effort. (A compromise)
Getting back to the 5% + greater stopping distance for ABS. What's 5% here or there so you might say? When you do the math, especially when elevated speed is involved, 5% in a 100ft stopping distance means the difference between accident and Headlines. Consider the 5 feet more intrusion into the rear passenger compartment of YOUR vehicle, where your kids are sitting, after a broadside right angle accident. I have seen death before me and more than one persons life changed forever over less than 5%. ABS is not the answer. Driver training is. Good Day.
More to the point, when you brake down to within 5% of your stopping distance you're still travelling at about one fifth (~20%) of your initial speed.
tidester, host
All safety features should be standard to lower the cost of these devices by mass production numbers. Remember when air bags were first proposed and the auto makers said they would be thousand dollar options. Their requirements have probably added only a few hundred to the price of a vehicle. Long option lists only complicate final assembly causing defects and creating overstock of strip models that no one buys. Isn't it stupid when some car makers still don't install rear defogger and intermittent wipers on a car, probably saving $20 in parts.
Now you've got me started on Air Bags. They were designed to assist in decelleration of the driver to combat the lash effect of seat belts. A seat belt properly adjusted will have up to 10" of forward travel in a total frontal collision at speeds of around 50kph. The corresponding forward energy of the passenger is thousands of pounds. Air bags were said to aid seat belt restraint in frontal collisions at highway speeds.
At the beginning of my career I was involved in an ongoing joint Transport Canada study on air bag premature deployment. I was assisting a level 3 Collision Analyst at that time. I had cause to see numerous collisions of low speed in which air bags had deployed. The data revealed that air bags were deploying unnessicarily at speeds in which they were offering limited benefit or none at all. Air bags were suspected in causing at least 2 deaths in our jurisdiction and I personally witnessed several serious injuries that I attributed to unnessicary air bag deployment. An opinion held by many analysts I have spoken with is that air bags are only beneficial in Head On Collisions in speeds in excess of 70kph. Otherwise there tends to be a large amount of supporting data indicating they are responsible for unnessicary injuries. One case that came to mind was a bag that deployed in a right angle collision, on the car that was hit on the side. (No reason for the bag to deploy) The air bag snapped the ulna bone of the elderly female passenger, causing a compound fracture with the bone protruding out her arm for about 2". I saw another collision where the air bag deployed in a solid mass, striking the female driver in the chest, detaching an aorta in her heart. She bled to death in her chest in 15 seconds.
My point is that auto makers are installing expensive options, making a tidy sum as a result, under the auspices of "Safety". Things like air bags are deploying unnessicarily at an almost criminal rate, resulting in a lucrative parts demand. Its $1800 Canadian for an average air bag replacement, and an insurance company isn't going to question weather it needs to be replaced or not. (not to mention the windshield and dash being blown out). I'm sure I'll hear from someone from the "If it will only save one life" crowd, but I can back up what I say with data.
It wasn't some government safety council that came up with the idea that air bags were needed. It was the auto makers pushing it. They are bumping up their bottom line.
Joey2brix hit the nail right on the head about the rear defogger/intermittent wiper thing. It costs a marginal amount to add something as an option, but look what it adds to the MSRP. Same with Air bags and ABS. Thats why the base price on vehicles has crept up disproportion ally over the last decade.
I just hope I don't have to see the day when the entire vehicle is encapsulated in multidirectional air bags, top to bottom. Maybe I'll take the bus if it gets to that. If I had my way I wouldn't have air bags in my vehicle either, but Transport Canada says otherwise.
On the air bag front, I too would rather have a full four point harness. We also have all heard about the infant car seat deaths and deaths of elder and short/small/light female drivers. But
those 100 deaths are out weighed by the thousands saved by air bags. Some were even dumb asses not wearing a seat belt. Intelligent, slower and less forceful deploying bags are being developed. Also the side air curtain seems to be one of the few safety items that's getting cars and SUV's better ratings in side impact tests.
I know you will come up with an example of a death from a side curtain roll-over, but we must look at the law of averages. These devices do work in 99% of the cases. (when used correctly with seat belts of course!)
BTW The $1800 air bag replacement cost probably 10 times the install cost to the car makers. Most replacement costs are labor and I feel that most manufacturers would want the car totaled and not repaired. Liability and profit concerns, so the replacement bag cost is set high. I'm old enough to remember how the car makers screamed and fought that air bag costs were going to kill sales in the 70's. Seat belts were not rushed into production because consumers did not care about safety in the 60's: sexy speedy cars were in, not safety. I don't think a web belt and a buckle were a big cost item even then.
Why don't you take a poll in the Volvo thread about giving up air bags and the costs. I'm sure that crowd would give anything for rear/ceiling and floor curtain bags if the option was available.
http://www.media.gm.com/news/releases/030407_vue.html
"Safety enhancements on all 2004 VUE models include front seat-belt pretensioners and dual-stage air bags. Dual-stage air bags are designed to detect vehicle deceleration and, based on the deceleration data, provide an appropriate amount of air-bag inflation. The dual-level air-bag system senses the severity of a crash and determines whether to deploy the air bag with primary or "lower" amount of inflation or with primary and secondary "higher" amount of inflation. Dual-stage air bags are designed to help reduce the occurrence of inflation-induced injuries by deploying the air bag less forcefully in lower speed crashes."
I have no idea about gas milage. The stats seem odd but who knows ... the numbers I have seen are
04 VUE FWD 20/28
04 VUE AWD 19/25
Seems strange that the extra 250 pounds makes such an impact...
Pilot is 17/22 but does weigh 1000 pounds more...
Odyssey is 18/25 and is 900 pounds more...
The 04 VUEs won't be hitting the lots for another month or so from what I hear so we'll have to wait and see...
If the VUE can get that, I would be most pleased.
The noise sounds like tires, or something right between them. That's why I had all the tire work done. It's definitely gotten louder, and sounds like really loud tires. It's a consistent noise, not grinding, or reving, and it gets consistently louder as I go faster. I'm trying to figure what I might be before I bring it to the dealer because I live so far from it.
Steve, Host
I would rather have an engine that will accelarate onto a highway without fear of getting rear ended and to be able to get around the snails in the left lane. Not to mention you get one of the best made mass producded V6's in the world in a mini-SUV, something Honda doesn't even offer. I'm jealous, I think you wished you waited for this too.
The 3.0 V6 already has enough power to create some serious tourque steer. Add 50 more ft/lbs of TQ and ... well ... we'll have to wait and see.
The ION Redline Saturn notes will have equal length halfshafts to combat this - the 04 VUE press release makes no mention of any mods to the suspension (outside of lowering the VUE Redline)
About 30-45 more days and we'll find out...