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Pre-2007 Acuras All Flunk Rear-End Crash Tests
gordongordo
Member Posts: 28
Alas, all the Acuras produced before 2007 --- including my MDX 2006 --- either flunked outright the recent IIHS rear-collision tests or came close to it.
That prompts a question: does anyone know whether the 2006 seats and head restraints can be replaced by the post 2007 MDX ones that passed the tests with flying colors?
Michael
Here's the link to the IIHS results for Acura: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?acura
That prompts a question: does anyone know whether the 2006 seats and head restraints can be replaced by the post 2007 MDX ones that passed the tests with flying colors?
Michael
Here's the link to the IIHS results for Acura: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?acura
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Comments
These IIHS tests have become more-and-more sophisticated and the vehicle designs change more frequently....its not valid to extrapolate results from one model year to next model year. IIHS doesn't do it but many magazines try and do it. It is the main reason I recently did not renew my membership in Consumers Union (Consumer Reports).
Here's a link to a fairly full description of the IIHS rear-end collision test: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/head_restraint_info.html
Please note two things that you queried about: 1) the dummy is the size of an average size man (first paragraph); 2) the speed used simulates a vehicle of equal size (MDX mid-size SUV, for instance) that slams into the test-sled simulating a 20 mph crash.
The results for those of us with Acuras made before 2007 aren't encouraging, just the opposite. And a mediocre score is, as I indicated, "close" to flunking. Note, finally please, that in 50 years of driving, I've been in six accidents --- and 5 were rear-end collisions, one (estimated by the police when I myself was in my very large Mercedes sedan) caused by a vehice going around 40 mph. The whole trunk area was pushed way forward, but nobody in the vehicle was hurt. And we didn't have airbags in those days to cushion the sudden jerk forward after the initial brusque jerk backward against the headrest. (The 6th accident was caused by somebody backing out of his driveway as I made a slow right turn into his street.)
What are the likely deficiencies in the pre-2007 MDX (to stay with it)?. Most likely, 1) the design and material of the seat, 2) the support material of the head-rest itself (the geometric design gets a "Good" rating), and 3) the seat-belt --- especially how quickly it restrains an occupant when a collision occurs from behind.
I do hope that someone knowledgeable about swapping the seats in the 2006 MDX reads this thread and can help me (and no doubt others) see about an exchange to safer seats and head-restraints (and maybe seat belts). Otherwise, my 2006 Acura MDX --- just purchased, certified, 3 weeks ago --- is a marvelous vehicle.
Michael
Obviously Acura changed something in the MDX design in May of 2007. If you can implement a similar change to you 2006 model...you have it. Since seats of all years passed the "geometry" test with a "G", it may be more than the seat component that needs to be swapped.
[You see how Acura made a design change in the middle of the model year in this instance?...lots of the auto magazine and others that quote the IIHS data fail to recognize this and will report that "ALL" MDX's fail this or that test, etc.,etc......lazy journalism]
I will try to find a way to talk to a Acura engineer back at the factory hdq --- wherever that is --- and see what I can find out. It's no use dealing with the technical service of a dealership. The issue is way beyond their expertise.
Michael
I will try to find a way to talk to a Acura engineer back at the factory hdq --- wherever that is --- and see what I can find out. It's no use dealing with the technical service of a dealership. The issue is way beyond their expertise.
Michael
Michael
1) I share your concern, though now my confusion is somewhat less --- especially after doing a little more research. First, here is the problem in non-technical terms described at Autospies.Com, itself reviewing the IIHS tests. I'm quoting the first four paragraphs only:
"In stop and go commuter traffic, you're more likely to get in a rear-end collision than any other crash type," says David Zuby, senior vice president of the Institute's Vehicle Research Center. "It's not a major feat of engineering to design seats and head restraints that afford good protection in these common crashes."
"Rear-end collisions are frequent, and neck injuries are the most common injuries reported in auto crashes. They account for 2 million insurance claims each year, costing at least $8.5 billion. Such injuries aren't life-threatening, but they can be painful and debilitating.
"Good seat/head restraint designs keep people's heads and torsos moving together: When a vehicle is struck in the rear and driven forward, its seats accelerate occupants' torsos forward. Unsupported, an occupant's head will lag behind this forward torso movement, and the differential motion causes the neck to bend and stretch. The higher the torso acceleration, the more sudden the motion, the higher the forces on the neck, and the more likely a neck injury is to occur.
"The key to reducing whiplash injury risk is to keep the head and torso moving together. To accomplish this, the geometry of a head restraint has to be adequate - high enough to be near the back of the head. Then the seat structure and stiffness characteristics must be designed to work in concert with the head restraint to support an occupant's neck and head, accelerating them with the torso as the vehicle is pushed forward.""In stop and go commuter traffic, you're more likely to get in a rear-end collision than any other crash type," says David Zuby, senior vice president of the Institute's Vehicle Research Center. "It's not a major feat of engineering to design seats and head restraints that afford good protection in these common crashes."
http://www.autospies.com/news/IIHS-Finds-Most-Vehicles-Have-Poor-Head-Restraints- -17151/
2) The last paragraph is the key: the head-rest has to actively support and presumably keep the forward momentum caused by the crash of the head and neck moving in tandem with the rest of the body. That does seem to suggest a tip: keep the head-rest very close to your neck and head --- maybe even grazing the back of them --- and hence adjust the head-rest (restraint) and seat so that's the case. The head-rest should, simultaneously, be at least half-way up the head and maybe higher if possible.
3) The wisdom of this tip gains some support if you then go back and read the IIHS link, describing the dummy test. It shows that the seat angle of the dummy --- which is the length of an average man --- is set back at 20 degrees . . . described at the IIHS site as representing what most drivers do with their seats' backs. Hence it seems, without being fully certain, that keeping the seat as perpendicular as possible, with the back of your head grazing the head-rest, will help you and your passengers in an accident. You should, of course, tell the passengers to adjust their seats similarly.
4) As for a recall, or any help from Acura at all, I talked to the Acura customer service dept. and was stonewalled. The fellow wouldn't pass me on to an Acura engineer at the mfg. plant, said that Acura is convinced that the pre-2007 Acuras are safe, said further that there is no intent by Acura to warrant any recall or switch.
5) Finally, I talked to the parts dept. at an Acura dealerhship in north-western L.A. (there's none here in Santa Barbara). The fellow there was helpful. He checked and found that the seat design and head-restraints produced after June 2007 are incompatible with the seats in the pre-2007 Acura MDX. That's a shame, but nothing else can be done, it seems, other than selling your MDX for the post-2007 MDX or for another SUV that did pass the rear-end collision test too --- selling it, in short, or keeping it and hoping that the seat adjustment will help protect you and your passengers if your car is hit from behind.
Michael
There are, I add, in the newer vehicles, what are called "active" head restraints. There's a mechanism in the seats that, once the vehicle senses a rear-end collision, thrusts the head-restraint forward against the head and neck of the occupants, so that their heads and necks move in tandem with the rest of their bodies. Conceivably, that's what the MDX produced after 2007 (June) now does. Hard to tell.
And, to keep the head and neck moving in tandem with the torso as they both hurl forward from a rear-end collision, it isn't just the head-restraint that counts, but also the seat design and structure.
Michael
PS Too bad we can't get a class-action suit against Acura, forcing it to replace the dangerous seats and head-restraints. When I talked to the customer service rep, he assured me that Acura considered the pre-2007 MDX and other Acura vehicles fully safe. They obviously aren't. There seems to be a liability issue involved here. I add that, as a professor, I'm not the one who has the time or money to start such a suit, but possibly there are others in these forums who do.
To answer your questions, I called the Acura customer service dept. yesterday. My question was whether the pre-June 2007 Acura seats and head-restraints could be changed, at my expense, for the safer seats and head-restraints. The customer rep didn't know. I then asked if there were any planned safety adjustments for those pre-June 2007 vehicles. He said, explicitly --- I had him repeat it --- that Acura regards those vehicles as fully safe.
That strikes me as opening Acura to a law-suit in the event of a rear-end collision that causes major injuries to the occupants in a pre-June 2007 vehicle. Had the rep simply said that Acura regrets these problems, that might have been different, but that is not what he claimed. (I add that when I suggested to him that Acura was opening itself to a law suit if that represented the company's position, he excused himself and obviously talked for a good minute or two to a higher-up in the company I add that he would not give me the telephone number of the plant where the MXD is produced. I simply wanted to talk to an engineer there who knew more about the issue, but the rep refused to give it to me . . . as though it were some major state-secret. Chrysler, I can tell you from personal experience, had no hesitation when, years go, I called customer service and asked if he could transfer me to a qualified engineer. Why is Acura so secretive here? If you're connected with it, kindly let me know.)
I hope this puts the issue in perspective.
Michael
PS: No, a pillow wouldn't likely support the head-neck bend in a rear-end collision. You're underestimating the tremendous forceful thrust of the occupants forward, with the neck-and-head lagging. The best protection is to keep the seat as perpendicular as possible, with the back of your head squarely against the head-restraint. Whether that's as good as the seat and active head-restraint fix that Acura made after June 2007 is another matter. The mfg. company obviously realized it had a problem with safety.
Perspective is exactly what I am trying to acheive on this issue. IMHO your perspective is too narrow. If I had an answer to my question about how many vehicles have seat designs that fail the IIHS criteria ....then I would have some perspective about how egregious this negligence is on the part of Acura.
Or maybe we are just exaggerating the danger - using the results of a highly specific test on a situation (seating) the involves many many variables (too many to meaningfully extrapolate the results to every pre-mid-2007 MDX). Good Luck.
Many thanks again for your continued replies, but I note that you didn't answer my two queries, and so I'd like to ask them again:
1) Are you employed, directly or indirectly, by Acura . . . indirectly meaning that you are paid or compensated to post in this forum?
2) If so, why was the Acura customer rep so reluctant to give me the location and telephone number of the factory where the Acura is produced, so that --- as Chrysler willingly did in the past --- talk to a relevant engineer?
Michael
He added that he was told that by the Acura service rep directly. Too bad the Acura customer-service knows nothing about this.
Michael
Seems expensive, yes . . . but if the bigger, fully inflated tire does help cushion a rear-end collision, $400 might then appear well worth it.
Michael
Yes, according to the Acura service person I talked to --- and for that matter, the Costco tire specialist who looked at the donut and the prospect of a change --- a full-size will fit there, but you need, remember, to get the right size rim from Acura. Be sure to let them know whether you have a towing package or not. My rim will be delivered to the local Honda dealership in Santa Barbara later this week, and I'll take it and ride a few minutes to Costco for the tire and its hook up to the underneath part of the MDX at the rear.
As for your wider question, I can't even tell you if that is an official Acura position --- in the sense that there is a TSB. All I know is that the GoldCost Acura rep said he was told about the tire-change by the company's service rep, but how effective it will be isn't clear. Acura's customer service, recall from an earlier post in this thread, didn't say anything about any sort of fix; said Acura claimed the vehicle was safe; repeated it after I mentioned then the possibility of legal liability in the event of injury in a rear-collision; refused even to give me the telephone number of a qualified engineer to talk to at the Acura plant; and said, finally, that Acura planned no other fix, seeing no need for one.
I think the person you should ask your general query to is MeChing1, who posts volumes of messages on this Acura forum --- in the present case, with touchy indignation --- and has refused to answer my query whether he or she is paid by Acura to post here and elsewhere.
Michael
PS: Don't forget. The IIHS test of the dummy-sled in a rear-collision put the dummy's seat at a 25 degree backward slant. The more you can get into a perpendicular seat-position and keep your head as close to the head-restraint as you can, the better it seems you and I and others can withstand the 20 mile an hour collision.
2. Since 2000, I believe the MDX and Pilot have been assembled at a plant in a remote part of Canada. Why would a design engineer be located at that plant? Most of Honda's design engineers are at facilities in Japan, California, and I think Ohio(?). So your request to speak with someone at the factory probably did not make sense to the customer rep.
Now can you answer my question. How many vehicles can have their seats adjusted to where the driver feels comfortable - yet it is "unsafe" per the IIHS geometry criteria? And should I retain an attorney to sue Volkswagen because the seat in my 1967 Beetle cannot pass the IIHS test?
I trust that you and others who have read this thread and have a pre-June 2007 MDX find some consolation in the only two tips for reducing any injury if you should be hit from behind while in your vehicle:
1) Try keeping your seat as perpendicular as you can, with the back of your head centered, as much as possible, grazing the head-restraint.
2) Try, despite the cost, replacing your donut spare-tire with a full-size Michelin Cross-Terrain, which requires that you also buy a rim for it from an Acura dealership.
Right now, there seems nothing else to be done.
Michael
The best fix, then --- the ideal that I first inquired about --- was whether we could swap our pre-June MDX seats (at my expense anyway) for the newer ones. The answer: no, they won't fit, the newer MDX's are redesigned and re-engineered, and those produced in the new 2007 model before June's production still weren't perfect.
The two fixes I suggest are, then, surrogates:
1) Keep your seat perpendicular so that you can feel the back of your head brush lightly against the head-restraint (ask your passengers to do the same): more specifically, the center of your head's back should be more or less at or slightly above the center of the head-restraint (see the picture in the link at the start of this thread to the IIHS tests).
2) The other fix was, remember, told to me by the service guy at Acura Gold|Coast in Ventura, though he said it was Acura's service-rep who told him: get rid of the donut spare --- which is dangerous to use anyway --- and add a full-size Michelin Cross-Terrain. It will help absorb some of the crash energy. Be sure that you obtain the right rim from an Acura dealership for that new spare.
Maybe others can think of some added make-shift fixes, but I can't. And don't expect any help from Acura itself.
Michael
Michael
I knew they adverstised it as having an active head restraint in the front seats. I am not sure if that was the change or not effective May or so. But, it may be worthwhile finding out. I don't know how, but if you want to bug them a bit and see what they say, let me know.
Check out the link, under safety features and the date of the press release. This is before people were even buying them. If they didn't put the active heat restraints in the front seats until May, the Acura lawyers will be pretty busy this year.
http://www.hondanews.com/categories/714/releases/3753
BTW, I printed this page in the event the link were to suddenly disappear. I do love this vehicle, but I am annoyed at not being told about this. It was an issue for me and was a factor in my deciding to buy this over the other top contender.
1) The nature of the OS used by the car (God i hope this is not windows)
2) The memory protection schemes and CPU used by car "may" block such infection
3) The ability for someone to create a virus that uses your phone as a vector (it first has to infect your phone and thus must be compatible with your phone and the car's OS)
I would not say it is impossible, however i would be inclined to say it would be very improbable (due to the different core operating systems and CPUs used between car and phone.
Always be careful of letting unknown devices pair with your car. With the prevalence for these crap windows mobile phones i can see your nightmare scenario (and i it is) happening, you can only hope that the most it will do is switch on your AC when you wanted to switch on your Nav (or change the car's voice to HAL9000).
My disdain for anything Microsoft is why i have a blackberry, that may make the situation you describe less likely for me, here is some info i found that should help anyone concerned (again, with modern, interconnected devices this was a very good/relevant question to ask!).
http://www.virus.org/faqs/task,cat/catid,32/#faq11
http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2004/06/16/bluetooth-virus-bites-mob- ile-phones
http://searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid40_gci970552,00.ht- ml