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Geo Metro Tire and Wheel Questions
I have a 1994 Metro and have 2 broken wheel studs in the front. I removed the tire, the 4 bolts to the rotor and the hub bolt was removed. Why doesn't the hub come off? The hub has to come off to replace the studs but what do I need to do? Thinking I have to use a slide hammer puller but I only have two lugs to mount the puller to.
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Judy Anderson
ydujcs.stanford.edu
oh i have a 1995 geo metro 4 door 4cyl 1.3L
We have a 92 Geo Metro and it sat dead in the water for some months because of not finding the ever so popular 12in tires it needed that are so hard to find.
We have come to learn that 13in tires and rims with the right bolt pattern will work just bueatifully.
The measurements are side to side 3 1/4 and across 4 1/2. the rims can come from a mid 70's dodge colt, Plymouth horizon, I believe even some volkswagens also... Hope this helps, wish I'd of known it sooner I almost thought of getting rid of the car at one point because of not finding 12in tires...
The GEO is known for the crankshaft pulley to come lose. it is located on the right side, and is the main drive belt pulley for PS, AC and alternator, (there are only! 4- 10 mm bolts that hold it on! ), Sometimes the bolts brake off one at a time, or just over a period of time they come lose. This was a flaw in the engine from the factory!) This pulley is maid of heavy steel and is also the harmonic balancer for the engine. When it comes lose it will make a noise and shake; if you jack up the car and grab it with your hands and wiggle it; there is a good chance that you could see it wobble slightly, or look straight down at it from under the hood while it is running to see if it is wobbling. Also when they first start to come lose on this type of car; ( usually but not always,) over time it will make a noise by rubbing the black plastic timing cover down near that pulley. The pulley will melt a whole in that cover by rubbing it. You may see this by looking down at it.
I hope that this helps you. Dennis
One other very important thing here.....
About the 13"wheels.Forget it!!!!!! I own a 1992 Geo Metro hatchback. I've tried the so called 13"wheels with matching bolt(stud)pattern.I've tried a wheel from the Horizon,Omni and others.You would think that as long as the bolt pattern matches that there would be no problem,right?.....WRONG! This is the problem:On the Geo Metro,atleast 1992-94 and possibly other years(with the plain 2 door Geo hatchback,not necessarily the LSI or fancy models),the stock studs coming out of the rotors are of "substandard"size!They are actually significantly smaller than the hole diameter in the matching 13" wheels from other model cars!!!!So this is a safety hazard as I was told by several tire mounting professionals!!! Yes,the 13"matching bolt pattern wheel can be easily mounted on to the matching Geo's studs,BUT there is too much play between the stock 92 Geo stud and the hole in the 13"wheel.Yes you can tighten down the Geo's lugs down into the wider hole of the 13"wheel,but the Geo's lugs ALSO have a smaller outside diameter.....so the chance of the wheel coming slightly loose or the "play"in the lug verses the larger hole diameter in the 13"wheel can pose a safety threat.I seen it with my own eyes!Many junk yard inventory computers will "tell you" that the horizon wheels and other 13"wheels will fit the 1992-94 Geo Metro....and yes they will.....but trust me,this is a mistake to mount the 13"rim....go see for yourself and take a "closer"look at the hole verses the lug diameter!
Plus,at 39 dollars apiece for 12"tires at the Tire Rack online(still available as i write this),forget the expense of the wheels PLUS the more expensive 13"tires!
The weight of that tire and other stress forces are being overly focused on the lug,because the hole diameter is too large in any 13"wheel you put on the car,especially when you hit pot holes,dips,rough roads and more.The wheel can still move in the lug area on a microscopic,level and the substandard mm studs can then bend with alot of additional stress.Think about it....if you need to find larger sized lugs to "try"and make the 13"wheel fit,then you must realize that there is something wrong here.If the 13"wheels truly fit the Metro(91-94)then you should be able to put them right on,zip your lugs on and be on your merry way!But this unfortunately is NOT the case.Put 13"wheels on yout metro hatchback,and you could be playing with an eventual large repair bill,or your life.Do what I do and order your 12"tires online.I've never failed to have a problem except once in a while with the snow tires.But then,hardly anyone orders 12"snows.I'm one of the few that oders 12"snows with studs on all 4 tires!Why?because i live in the mountains...need I say anymore?
Again,perhaps you "may"have found one specific 13"wheel that fits a more precise smaller lug diameter on the Standard Non LSI 91-94 Geo Metro Hatchback,but I seriously doubt that,since i have tried several.The larger hole diameter in the 13"wheel does pose a safety threat when mounted on the smaller lugs on my 92 Geo Metro standard Hatchback,even if its just a few hairs wider.I have discussed this issue with several professional mechanics not only at dealerships,but at various other shops and salvage yards.Yes,modifications can be made,but your conversion work was "unnecessary"if you can still find 12"tires as easy as pebbles in the road!Now,once 12 inch tires are no longer available,well then I personally would consider all the modifications you mentioned,but I just purchased 4 12" tires through the Internet 2 months ago at 38 dollars apiece and 45 dollars to ship all 4 tires.Thats only 197.00 total to arrive at my doorstep.If I go to the shop and have all that modification work done,including the fact that most shops will not allow you to go to a junk yard and bring them used parts to save money,well then,the cost will be outrageously high to do this.Bottom line....be smart,and purchase the 12"tires online not only for safety,but to save money and hard work.If you make a mistake and do not drill perfectly in the modifications,thats another problem as well...
Enough said!
Also....to my above message.If you could somehow find a wider lug with a "precise"inner thread match to fit the smaller 12" studs...well then that still won't work that great because you still have the stud diameter problem "below" the lug and into the 13"rim hole itself!I doubt that you could find a unique lug anyway safe or unsafe that would do this anyway,since my sources are infinitely beyond any autostore computer which I found out makes plently of mistakes!We could talk about the "correct"stater replacement on the distributor when you need another one vs other type of cars,even beyond the Geo(but this is another issue).The computer,even at the dealer will give you an "exact" replacement part....but this is MANY TIMES FLAWED!Many dealership computers as well as Autozone and others do not have the "correct"updates from the databases that show "intermittant problems"associated with staters.These intermittant problems show up on the update bullitin boards sent to many dealerships,but their own computers are not always updated.For example,I had a 95 ford escort a while back.The stater went out of commission.The dealer put back in a 95 stater again,(thats stater,not a starter!)which was a mistake,because 3 months later,the stater went out of commission again!They should have read the update bullitin board showing problems with the 95 stater and put in a stater from 1997,which fit exacly and had no "intermittant"problems.Motto???Do not trust any parts store or dealership even if they say this will fit or will work,even a 13"wheel for example!!!!!I I also was given a thermostat once by autozone and national and advance auto parts that showed the supposed perfect replacement for my 92 Geo Metro.Well...the computer in all 3 stores was INCORRECT!!!!!My model requires a black rubberized gasket that fits around the "edge"of the thermostat,not on the bottom of the thermostat,so they were all wrong!I had to go to the dealer and spend 30 dollars for the correct thermostat!Now,getting back to the wheel problems....I had a friend 3 years ago that simply placed what appeared to be a well fitting 13" rim on his 91 Geo metro hatchback,until he hit a few potholes,did a couple of fast swings around some sharp corners in the road and his wheel began to wobble violently.He found out that there was NOTHING wrong in his suspension,he thought he broke something!No,it was the lug vs hole problem again.Now maybe if he was a nice old lady that drove around 25 MPH all the time and drove on all smooth roads,he would not have ever noticed a problem,but then we are not all old ladies driving 25 MPH are we?The day I trust slapping on a 13"rim simply based upon the fact that the "holes"line up perfectly or because some auto parts store says its "ok"is the day I may very well lose control of that tire and go under a semi crushing me to a thin piece of scrap metal.Think what you want my friend,but i have personally observed otherwise and contrary to what you have said.
1.Not finding 12"tires on the internet or even looking on the internet...(not too smart on your part!)
2.Doing all those unnecessary conversions and all that work...Not too smart!
3.trying to tell me about the "convertibles"having 13 inch tires when the discussion was about 91-94 hatchbacks...NOT convertibles which are still 12",not 13"!Very unsmart!
4.believing that parts stores will give you the correct fit simply because their computer says so...triply unsmart!!!
5.and not admitting or correcting your mistakes...quadruple unsmart!!!!!!!!!
Again,the holes matched to the 92 Geo's studs,but as I told you before...there was too much play between the stud and the hole in the 13" susuki wheel making it somewhat unsafe.So,i'm calling you a liar to your face!
And this you can add to all your other mistakes!
Step 1 - Remove the front hubs and the rear drums.
Step 2 - Remove the studs. Some people call wheel studs "lugs." (Press or knock them out.)
Step 3 - Purchase the studs that fit the 13 inch wheels - There are two different lengths to fit the front and the rear. AutoZone.com lists the following parts - Front- Dorman/wheel stud part number 610-334.1 and Rear- Dorman/Wheel stud part number 610.336.1. These are the correct diameter and length to properly fit the geo convertible 13 inch wheels. They are size M12-1.25 thread.
Step 4 - carefully drill the holes in the hubs and drums to a larger size to accept the larger wheel studs. If you don't have the correct equipment like a drill press and proper size drill bits then go to a machine shop and have the holes enlarged professionally.
Step 5 - press the larger studs into the holes in the hubs and drums.
Step 6 - Purchase the correct wheel nuts. (Some people call them "lug nuts.") Autozone.com lists them as Dorman/Wheel Nut part number 611.064.1 (same size front and rear.)
Step 7 - reinstall the front hubs and rear drums.
Step 8 - install the 13 inch geo convertible wheels on the new larger studs on the geo hatchback.
If the person considering this swap would rather get the parts from NAPA look for part numbers 6411534, 6413158 and 6413144.
This works. It is 100% as safe as using the production 12 inch wheels and I can assure you that it can be done. I have done this job. I have a 90 geo hatchback in my garage with the properly fitted 13 inch convertible wheels.
Why you feel compelled to call me a liar to my face is sad and puzzling. I offer this information based on experience and the facts can be verified. I am not simply throwing out unsubstantiated opinions.
/quote geoman2
Forget the larger lugs.You won't find them with the substandard mm inside diameter and larger outside diameter...does NOT exist!
/quote
First, the the studs ar NOT SUBSTANDARD! 10x1.25 is a standard metric size. 10mm is common bolt size, 1.25mm is metric 'fine' thread. the word 'substandard is misleading and wrong!
Second, Larger lugs DO exist. I have been a mechanic for 25 years (school trained), and there is NO safety issue with them. I will detail below.
BTW, I am glad you are happy with your 145/80/12's. I wasnt...
Moving on. During the process of converting to a 13" wheel, I compiled some information to help others along. Here it is:
OEM Info
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Wheel = 12" x 4"
Tire = 145/80-12
Bolt pattern = 4 x 4.5" (114.3 mm)
Fender well clearance 597mm
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Car Year Pattern Stud Size Center Bore Offset
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METRO 89-97 4X114.3 10mmX1.25 59.6 35
EXCEL 86-94 4X114.3 12mmX1.5 67.1 46
New Wheel
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13" x 4.5" Steel Wheel
SILVER; 12 SLOT
Model: Hyundai Excel 86-94
(as you can see I used Hyundai excel rims because I got them for $10 ea, and all I had to do was paint them, surely many more will fit)
Most compatiable sizes
(the 155's were exact replacements I bought a while back, shown for comparison purposes only, they were Douglas brand from Walmart, they dont carry them anymore BTW) (the numbers on the far left mean nothing, it was just a list)
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Size total Radius +/- clearance ea side
OEM 145/80/R12 537mm (21.1) +0mm 30mm
Mine 155/75/R12 537mm (21.1) +0mm 30mm
3 185/60/R13 552mm (21.7) +15mm 22.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 46.00 Price: $184.00 for 4 - Shipping $40.90 ============= $224.90
5 195/60/R13 564mm (22.2) +27mm 16.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 49.00 Price: $196.00 for 4 - Shipping $42.18 ============= $238.18
8 205/60/R13 576mm (22.7) +39mm 10.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 54.00 Price: $216.00 for 4 - Shipping $46.02 ============= $262.02
9 215/50/R13 546mm (21.5) +9mm 25.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 52.00 Price: $208.00 for 4 - Shipping $43.46 ============= $251.46
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These tires were all from tirerack. You can look around if you want... Other sizes may fit, but hitting the fenderwells is questionable, since they had to be shipped, I erred on the side of caution. BTW, I went with the 215/50/13's. They do not rub fenderwells or ANYWHERE!!
Anyway, heres more:
Stock Tire - 145/80R12 215/50R13
Section Width: 5.70 in 145 mm Section Width: 8.46 in 215 mm
Rim Diameter: 12 in 304.8 mm Rim Diameter: 13 in 330.2 mm
Rim Width Range: 4 - 4.5 in Rim Width Range: 6 - 7.5 in
Overall Diameter: 21.13 in 536.70 mm Overall Diameter: 21.46 in 545.08 mm
Sidewall Height: 4.56 in 115.82 mm Sidewall Height: 4.23 in 107.44 mm
Radius: 10.56 in 268.22 mm Radius: 10.73 in 272.54 mm
Circumference: 66.38 in 1686.0 mm Circumference: 67.41 in 1712.2 mm
Revs per Mile: 984.3 Revs per Mile: 969.2
Actual Speed: 60 mph 100 km/h Speedometer1: 59.0 mph 98.4 km/h
Speedometer Difference: 1.557% too slow Diameter Difference: 1.54%
As you can see, the rim size is too small for the tires I selected, they work fine, but honestly, if I had it to do over again I would have gone with the 195's. I almost did, but I LOVE WIDE TIRES!!
I used a javascript program on a website to calculate alot of this. I will post the link here, but I dont know how they are about links on this website. I really joined up here to make this post so hopefully other people wont have to do so much research like I did.
http://www.rims-n-tires.com/info_specs.jsp?
(this site seems to be down sometimes, maybe my security settings, but often I had to try back later to get there)
Anyway, on to the lugs. The brand is Gorilla Automotive, the style is acorn, and they are also a 'bulge seat' style, which means simply, they are one size larger in physical form only. The hex size is listed as 3/4 inch, which is a direct cross to 19mm (close enough ok?), the same hex size you would get if you had 12mm studs!!! No need to change studs the seat is .5mm larger than the hex drive, more than enough to cover the hole.
Here is a link to their catalog:
http://daliracing.com/v666-5/download/Gorilla_lock_nuts.pdf
or google 'Gorilla_lock_nuts.pdf'
The part number is 41118 (bulk package), 41117 (clamshell package) 41117B (bag package.
This is a link to where I bought mine, I got 20 for about $23 after shipping. If your buying custom stuff that has to be shipped, DO GET EXTRAS, 20+ they were only 0.82 cents each (before shipping) I couldnt find these in retail stores around town either.
http://www.brandsport.com/grla-41118.html
They fit very well, a little long, but they will STILL allow wheel covers no problem. If you dont want chrome like me, you can acid bath them first, and they will be a beautiful black chrome!! ( I have yet to do this myself)
Anyway, I can post pics if anyone wants, I have dozens of pictures already taken (point me to an online picture dump). I also have pics of the washers I made before the lugs arrived. This is NOT safe in my humble AND professional opinion, even though they sell expensive lug washers. I got 3/8 zinc flat washers, lift wheel off ground, center wheel with two opposing lugs, put washer on stud, use nut and torque wrench to make flat washer conical. Then repeat for other lugs. This is real dangerous IMO because people 'forget'. I was checking the torque on my lugs every 10-15 miles for about 5 days!!! What a pain!! Its really unsafe, and I dont recommend it unless:
1 Its very temporary
2 You never forget anything
2 You check the proper torques (with a torque wrench) very often (95-100ft lbs)
If you leave them like this, your damn wheel WILL fall of sometime you are least expecting, and maybe kill someone, so use the PROPER LUGS!! I only include this information for completeness.
It's been a great experience even for a seasoned mechanic, but I hope I have saved someone a little research. Please be safe, and change the studs, or buy the oversized nuts.
questions/comments?
Colt
Please be safe and enjoy a few new shiney parts by investing in the proper upgrade lugs.
You'll enjoy the better ride and handling w/ the 13's over stock 12's, but remember your speedo is going to be off by 5 to 7mph so do 5mph under what it reads.
your way:
1. Find a Conversion or late model geo at the bone yard that hasnt been stripped already (tough)
2. buy conversion, or late model spindles ($$$)
3. buy conversion, or late model calipers ($$$)
4. buy conversion, or late model rims ($$$)
5. buy conversion, or late model tires ($$$)
6. Dont really expect to get all that for $100
7. Do alot of work changing spindels, rotors, calipers, rims, and tires
8. buy 8 studs for the rear
9. pray you have a decent drill press to precision drill the rotors for oversized studs
10. Install all this and do it your self
10. have tires mounted
My way:
1. goto: www.teamswift.net (or google) search the forum there. There is a LIST that tells you every wheel that fits the metro for nearly ANY GEO. My '94 is 105mm 4 lug I think. But you can search out any conversion you want online and make you own list. This is easier than drilling rotors!!
2. Go buy any set of 13 in rims that you can find off of multiple cars for multiple years. I bought 89-94 hyundai rims for $10 ea! Painted them they look great.
3. All the 13" rims you find will be to accomodate a 19mm stud the originals are for 17mm, so the lugs are smaller, sooooooo, go buy some online!! They are around 75 cents each, and get a few extra. look back in this thread, and you will find the link I posted. The BRAND is GORILLA. The STYLE is BULGE SEAT. the SEAT is over sized, and you need this because the hole is larger on the 13 inch rims, and your old lug nuts will slip into the hole itsself.
4. buy a set of tires and have them mounted.
5. install the tires and new lugs.
Just to recap, you can do all those mods with brakes, spindles, calipers, and drilling rotors, OR you can do it the EASY way:
1. Get a set of rims, tires to fit, and ovesized lugs
2.Have the tires mounted, and put them on with the new lugs
@candoit
I do not mean to be harsh. What seems easy to us is not to others. I have been working cars since I was knee high to a grasshopper (30+ yrs), have a degree in it, and dont mean to be rude to you. But you have to look at the fact that buying a set of rims availible from many cars, tires and lugs to fit is pretty easy for most people. What I consider easy is replcing the V-hold chip and channel in your TV, or rebuilding a transmission or engine, or engineering an idea from scratch and fabricating parts. Most other people do not have the knowledge, tools, or time to do such things. The fact that I 'discovered' there was a lug nut that would omit the 'need' for a conversion, and made it a very strong point to come back AFTER I finished the project so that the information could help other, really solved the problem for many people. Some have even posted so in this thread. I think its commendible that you took the time to post your ideas here, but I do not agree your way is easier.