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3 consumer reviews are shown at the "2009 Subaru Forester Consumer Reviews" page and 5 consumer reviews are shown on the "2009 Subaru Forester Editors' Review". There is no editors' review on the Editors' Review page. Somebody needs to do a bit of re-organizing. :P
Thanks for solving the mystery for me, caliberchic.
Good points about buying in the US for us is that we are not paying state tax if we import directly and warranty is convered. Bad point is you have to pay cash, no financing possible.
All thing considered, I will probably save 7,000-8,000 if I buy in the US.
Dealer mentioned that he expects them to be about $1500 less than last years which would make sense given the price drop in the US. I'm hoping Subaru Canada decides to stop playing the rebate/low-interest incentive games with the new Forester model given that it's pretty much an entirely new model and can get away with being more aggressive in their prices, i.e. drop the list price by $3K-$5K. (I wouldn't be surprised if they did this. With the conflict in the oil-rich countries not ending any time soon, oil prices will stay high and the strength of the Canadian dollar will be strong for the foreseeable future.) If they do decide to significantly lower their prices, I would expect them to not last too long at the dealers. With the crazy amount of snow we've had this winter, Subie's should have solid spring sales numbers.
Btw, there are brokers out there now that will do all the paperwork for you for a nominal fee. Subaru better start doing something otherwise it'll become a real big problem. (Basically, they need to figure out away to charge us less money on new units without eroding the residual values of the units they have out on lease.)
Some US dealerships are doing the paperwork for 'free'. I got a quote 1000 under US MSRP including paperwork for a LL Bean. (which is PZEV, a big selling point for me, not offered in Canada)
I guess I'll encourage US economy until Cad car manufacturer's stop gouging us!
Is the 2008 Forester AWD configured the same?
How does the Subaru AWD compare with other AWD systems like Audi Quattro?
So I'm watching this very carefully and will cancel my order if Subaru Canada doesn't do something with the new Foresters.
Then visible was a black plastic flange integrated with the rear view mirror, held in place against the roof by one gray press-in fastener. The flange, when pressed very lightly, made a loud click as it touched and separated from the roof metal.
Unfortunately, the plastic fastener was of a type that allowed some play between the flange and the roof. So, My fix was to take a thin piece of compressable foam and work it into place between the mirror bracket and roof (not dislodging the fastener) so that the black flange could no longer click against the roof.
I'll report back whether or not this worked (did this before starting day job - will drive again later).
To Subaru's credit, they had wrapped the roof light electrical connectors with foam to prevent them from banging against the roof and making noise.
The newer Haldex system for SAAB is pre-emtive, and includes clutches for the differential to allow torque transfer from side to side. In the '09 Forester, Subaru relies on the brake system to do the side-side torque transfer.
Also, as Subaru pointed out, no AWD system can work if __all__ the wheels are on a slippery surface!
Jeep is a true 4WD: 50/50 split and almost 100% of torque can be transferred to any wheel. Forester is certainly more fuel efficient, but you pay price for the efficiency: the automatic Forester is not a true full-time AWD car. It is front biased: under normal driving conditions it has 90/10 front-to-rear torque split and when slippage occurs, it suppose to transfer more torque to the rear. As for handling snow, check out these impressive Outlander snow videos, which has a 60/40 full time torque split:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3arUMr2PsI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJt0j38JJBA&feature=related
-ot-Jeep is not AWD, its 4WD with the ability lock the center differential, with a low and high range. The high end version of their 4WD system can send almost 100% of torque to one wheel. It is not AWD because until wheel slippage is detected all torque goes to the rear wheels. When slippage is detected the system goes into action immediately transferring power to where the wheels are not slipping.-/ot-
I've already posted very impressive videos of the Subaru vehicles against the competition. The XT will wallop the Outlander.
I asked Subaru what the actual power splits could be and they never came back with a clear answer. :confuse:
Check out link title
Very impressive. This thing can do way more than my old Pathfinder 4WD could.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef17adb/1753?14@@
If you buy, that's probably the best place to post your deal. :shades:
Invoice without the options you listed is $25k (+$200 if it's PZEV emissions), so it sounds like you're probably getting invoice price, which is definitely realistic.
When you list "rear bumper guard", do you mean the rear bumper underguard or the rear bumper cover? If you don't have the bumper cover on your list, I'd highly recommend it, otherwise the lip of the rear bumper gets scratched up from loading & unloading.
Because Forester is built in Japan, not US, you do have to pay duties (6.1%?), which you would not pay on US-made Outback, Legacy or Tribeca. Your cost savings will not be as great when you purchase a Forester or Impreza in the US, but should still be worth the little extra hassle.
Here's the link:
http://www.cars101.com/canada.html
For most of the winter weather here in MA the Soobs are just fine, and in fact perfect because the roads are almost never with virgin deep snow. For roads that have been at least partially plowed and have changing conditions as you drive, the Soobs are the vehicle.
First packed snow, then bare, then ice, the Soob AWD just adapts seamlessly to it all. I have to admit that the Forester that I thought was best for the winter was my first, which was an 01 L model with the 5-speed and the starting 50/50 split front to rear, but the rest have all been automatics and have done just fine.
The one time I got stuck I was showing off and tried to go through 14" of fresh snow in my yard. I quickly got high-centered because of the ground clearance and the lack of weight to punch down through the snow, glad I had a shovel handy. If I had to drive through deep fresh virgin snow I would take the Tundra which has both more ground clearance and weight, and seems to track like a tank through anything deep. For everything else I drive the Forester, including 6" of fresh snow or thereabouts. 4WD is not happy going through the changing road conditions I mentioned above, AWD is just fine with it. Even with shift-on-the-fly 4WD, push a button, you still have to be aware of bare roads that aren't straight and shut it off, then turn it on again when back to not-bare. I prefer to just keep my hands on the wheel and drive my Forester.
Our driveway is about 90' long and goes uphill to the street. My wife leaves for work before I get to tend to any snow in the driveway, and always loves the fact that she can just drive up to the street without incident, even if it is 8" deep. She couldn't do this pre-Subaru when she had FWD. My wife will never do without AWD again, and sees no reason to ever get anything but a Subaru. I have to agree with her for my main ride.
'09 Forester has 8.7" of ground clearance (8.9" for the turbo models).
Explorer XLT 4x4 has 8.2" of ground clearance.
Forester now has that advantage by half a foot. Weight? Yeah, Explorer's way heavier.
The Forester is great in the snow. It inspires confidence you won't get stuck. Maybe a difference in AWD between models, but the first year I had the car, plowed through two feet of heavy wet snow without an issue. Very hard to spin it out unless one drives idiotically.
Never shoveled my driveway after snow, just backed out.
To fix that, (inside the housing) adding some foam between mirror mount and the light housing interior, and some foam between the wires and roof metal. So far, that seems to have gotten rid of the loud chirp over very small bumps.
To fix that, (inside the housing) adding some foam between mirror mount and the light housing interior, and some foam between the wires and roof metal. So far, that seems to have gotten rid of the loud roof chirp over very small bumps.
Note: my car has moon roof. This may not be a problem in models without moon roofs.
Once again you are incorrect.
The 08 XT model had VTD AWD, the 09 has Auto AWD w/VDC.
A quick peek at a brochure would tell you that. That was also discussed in this thread, even before the car came out.
You really are not qualified to judge an AWD system when you don't even know which AWD system you are judging!
Now go do your homework before you post again, please. :P
Let's see, off that list, these would interest me:
* all weather floor mats
* rear bumper cover (to stand on when you load the roof rack)
* round crossbars (more universal)
* cargo net
* puddle lights (my van has them, nifty)
* trailer hitch (you can do this yourself, it's pre-wired)
Do they offer the Chase Subaru credit card in Canada? You can earn $500/year for free service and accessories.
I'm pretty much looking at the same accessories (except for the puddle lights .. aren't they just for show?).
I think i'll probably add the fog lights (need them and I think the holes in the front bumper would look too fake without them) and the hitch-mounted bike rack.
There are 3 cargo nets. All three useful?
I had the old-style cargo net at the back. It was useful but it also got in the way at times. I think these 3 are better in that regard, but I'd probably only get the ones on the sides.
Thinking of getting an aftermarket clear coat to improve the longevity of the paint and reduce scratches. I currently have a BMW and it's paint is outstanding.
If you had asked me before I owned them, I might have dismissed them as unnecessary, but my wife would slap me if I said that now.
Wondering if there are any dealers / licensed repair shops that will do the warranty work directly (charge exactly what the US rates are and handle the paperwork).
If they start popping up, then there is no reason to buy from a Canadian dealer.
Yes, the 09 Subaru has a VDC, but speaking of your phrase “Subaru's VDC is the best AWD system on the market today”, I have to say that the VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control) is not an AWD system - it’s a separate stability control system: when it senses loss of vehicle control, it applies individual brakes, reduces engine power, and, finally if necessary affects axle torque distribution. Some Subaru like 07 Tribeca have both the VTD AWD and VDC system. I assume that, if you like giving unsolicited advice, you like receiving such advice as well, so “now go do your homework before you post again, please”.
It appears actually that Forester was downgraded from 2008 Forester full-time VTD AWD system which had 45/55 split, to 2009 Forester’s so called “Active AWD” (name is according to AOL article, and NY Times a posted earlier) with 90/10 split in normal driving conditions which is nearly on-demand system. So much for your "best AWD system" comment. I guess Subaru has to give up something fighting for emission/mileage standards. Here is interesting related article:
Subaru considering non-AWD, non-boxer powered models
"In order to comply with new emissions and fuel economy standards, Subaru could be forced to offer all-wheel drive and boxer engines as available options rather than standard equipment."
>> You really are not qualified to judge an AWD system when you don't even know which AWD system you are judging!
Funny to hear this from someone who says that “VDC is AWD system”. And from someone who makes stuff up, saying that Subaru’s AWD can send 100% of power to either axle, but someone unable to offer any evidence. Now this "expert" says that Subaru in 1st and 2nd gears defaults to 50/50, and when cruising it defaults to 90/10. Some progress, I guess, though the “default 50/50 in 1st and 2nd gears” part of the theory appears to be made up. Really, “go do your homework before you post again, please”.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4481?@@
One cannot have an AWD system without a center diff. For economy reasons it seems, imo, Subaru changed the split from 50/50 to 90/10 in normal driving. Subaru removed the LSD and replaced it with electronics, which has it's positive and negative points. The active AWD is one of the best around, with the ability to adjust the split as needed under load. Not "on-demand" as you put it. Highlander has an on-demand system.
Funny to hear this from someone who says that “VDC is AWD system
Funny that was never said. VDC isn't an AWD system, It's purpose is to keep the vehicle moving in the direction of the steering wheel. One of the other jobs is to stop wheels from spinning. Which means is for some reason the drivers side front tire and the passenger side rear tire have no traction upon acceleration, the VDC will prevent them from spinning.
So much for your "best AWD system" comment. I guess Subaru has to give up something fighting for emission/mileage standards. Here is interesting related article:
As far as this ridiculous statement goes, it is true the added complexity of 4WD and AWD reduces gas mileage and increases emissions. Subaru is not GM, Nissan or Toyota and produces a very narrow mix of vehicles. The Legacy and XT can beat the pants off the competition in the snow and dry asphalt as well. Unfortunately new regulations are forcing change on the automanfacturers, Subaru isn't exempted and will force them to rethink their strategy.
Yes the Honda Pilot is AWD but doesn't have a Center Differential, nor a Limited Slip Differential Center but a Locking Differential Rear. It appears that very few vehicles have a Locking Differential Rear. The expert say that this type of differential is responsible for a smooth low-speed AWD wheeling.
I see some progress from anixtiera's statement. It's not the best anymore. It's "one of the best".
>>Not "on-demand" as you put it. Highlander has an on-demand system.
I did not say it's on-demand. I said it's "nearly on-demand". AWD with 90/10 could hardly be called full-time.
>> Funny to hear this from someone who says that “VDC is AWD system
Funny that was never said.
Are you sure, concelor? Have you done your home work to check everything he said?
I know exactly what AWD systems come in the new Forester, and have seen video evidence proving their capabilities. All automatic equipped 2009 Forester get the AWD system in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t09ExAUgtyE&feature=related
The 5 speed manual gets a Viscous Coupling.
The only difference is they've added traction and stability control, called VDC, for 2009. What is confusing you is that VDC here refers to the traction and stability control only, while VDC on the Tribeca has been used by Subaru to describe the complete, integrated AWD system (including the traction control, since they work together).
You choose not to value that video, but honestly, I could care less what you think.
Here's another video showing a real-world test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oY-sstA3Ec
You come here with a single agenda: to promote the Outlander. That's the only reason you are here.
It will be hard to interest Forester shoppers in an Outlander for 3 main reasons:
* the V6 is slow, 0-60 in 8.1 seconds per Motor Trend
* the V6 is inefficient, with just 17 EPA city mpg (CR averaged just 18mpg overall)
* C&D gave the Outlander an off road score of 4 out of 10, worst in its class
So I'm sorry but I am not interested in a slow (for a V6), inefficient (17mpg for a compact?!), and ineffective off roader which C&D said "felt fragile".
You keep bench racing and pointing to paper specs, but out in the real world, the bottom line is it's just not that good.
Boy, you really are misquoting me, badly. Taking what I say out of context, too.
It was in a Tribeca thread where we first began to debate the merits of the various AWD systems, specifally in the Murano vs. Highlander vs. Tribeca vs. Pilot thread, here is a link:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f10c9ee.ef7d6ad/791
Folks, please note the Outlander is not in that thread at all, and even if a Mitsubishi were included, it would be the Endeavor anyway.
So not on-demand, but nearly on-demand? That's funny.
Almost as funny as chelentano's claim that the leather-wrapped steering wheel in the high-end Forester models is a dealer-installed option!
Hilarious! He really said that, folks. Here is a link:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f185114/42
I wrote: "You mention the leather steering wheel and shifter on the Outlander but the Forester has those, too"
chelentano's response: "Yea, but on Forester it’s a dealer installed option, and on the Outie it’s factory standard feature."
You just have to laugh.
I view VDC as an improvement over what has historically been offered, and works at least as well as the previous LSD that was only in the rear, and not on the base vehicle. I am also sure more and more manufacturers will be moving away from LSD and locking axles except for hard-core off-roader type vehicles because it is cheaper to use the already-there ABS sensors and add some programming. The electronics can also react faster than a purely mechanical device.
Having all the drive wheels engaged and just constantly, instantly, and seamlessly adjusting the torque split as needed is far superior, to me, over any on-demand system where another differential needs to be brought into play in a reactive sense. I DO admit that I would prefer the starting torque split to be more like 50/50 or 45/55 because when I had the 50/50 with my first Forester with 5 speed it was the best overall handling and balanced Forester I have owned.
Based on the questionnaires I have been asked to participate in I am sure Subaru has considered a non-AWD vehicle as a loss-leader. They have also asked a lot of questions regarding automatic transmissions with more than 4 speeds, and a lot more about CVT. They have also asked questions about hybrids and other non-conventional engine types but I have seen nothing specifically about a non-boxer.
http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomla-blog/why-the-honda-pilots-awd-only-works-on- -nyc-streets.html
I can guarantee this won't happen in a Forester.
Full time has nothing to do with the split, you are referring to the bias. Full time AWD means that all four wheels are powered simultaneously.
The '08 Tribecas' new H6 is much better, but unfortunately didn't make it to the Outback (yet).
Also, though it's really hard to get info on exactly what was done to the turbo, Subaru marketing videos and a number of reports claim the '09 Forester has better low end torque. That proved to be case with my roughly 12 test drives of '08 Outbacks and '09 Foresters.
Outback has the older drive system of LSD in back, center diff and other components. Forester went with the Impreza system using center clutch packs and wheel braking for VDC/VTC. From what I saw in Subaru marketing videos, the Foresters __do__ take some time figuring out which wheel to send traction to when some wheels loose traction. That can be a drawback in some situations.
I won't know until next winter if my '09 is a match for Oregon roads. Hopefully, it will be.
You wild man.
We should all defer to you, in that case.
Boy, read it again. You’ve said: “Subaru's VDC is the best AWD system on the market today. At any price.” :
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef7d6ad/721
Boy, VDC is not AWD! And VDC does not replace VTD. In some Subaru VDC complements VTD.
>> I wrote: "You mention the leather steering wheel and shifter on the Outlander but the Forester has those, too" Almost as funny as chelentano's claim that the leather-wrapped steering wheel in the high-end Forester models is a dealer-installed option!
My apologies about steering wheel, my statement really applies to the second part of the phrase: the shifter. According to Edmunds.com leather shifter is not included in base prise, but it's an extra option for $189. Also why do you bring Outlander related suff here from Outlander/Forester thread? Please stay focused here on Forester. Otherwise I'd have to bring some stuff too. See the extra leather shifter option for $189 here:
I'd like to remind you that this is not Outlander thread. Please stay focused :--)
You right about referring to the bias. On my part it's just a figure of speach. Sorry, but AWD with 90/10 split is "full-time" only technically. It's grandma's full-time AWD. Or wify's. I think our friend is shopping axactly for his wife.