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Lincoln MKT

2

Comments

  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    "That's a lot, even with a full staff"

    Yeah, and they just announced today they'll be doing ANOTHER layoff. So better get them Lincolns out NOW, else never may come early.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Yep, check BON today and find the news that Ford has aofficially approved the MK T for production. I hope this pleases many folks who've been chomping at the bit for a FWD Lincoln station wagon. Sadly, (he says sarcastically) the news also says that the distinctive 'bustle-back' wont make it to production.
  • OK, then, I now officially hate the MKT idea too. Like Ford usually does, they will dumb it down to where it is just a Flex with cautious Lincoln styling. Yes, that will really stand out in the marketplace.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    the news also says that the distinctive 'bustle-back' wont make it to production

    Unless you're talking about a different article from the one I saw at detnews.com - it doesn't say that at all. It just says that the production version will offer seating for 7 and I think that's still possible even with the 'bustle-back' design. It's also possible they'll offer 2 versions - one with a 3rd row and one without.

    I'm also not saying that it won't change - it might and if it does then your criticism is spot on. But given Mulally's position on past concepts I'd be very surprised if the basic design gets altered for production.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    I read all the posts on BON and that's probably where I read the bustle-back was gone. SOme on there are insiders. We'll see.
    Yeah, there's talk of a 2 row and a 3 row version. Myself I doubt that. Would cost them too much to build 2 versions. When's the last time Ford built 2 versions of anything, save Mustang?
  • Not two versions. Option for two rows or three rows, like with the Explorer, etc.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    When's the last time Ford built 2 versions of anything

    Taurus/Taurus X?

    I read those forums and I don't remember anything but speculation, but I could be wrong. I'm not a big fan of that look but it is distinctive.

    I'd like to think there is enough room (the concept is longer than the Flex) for a 3rd row without changing the rear too much. Then I'd like to see a 3 row option and a 2 row option with captain's chairs and extra leg room. That would make a nice livery vehicle since most only carry one or two passengers plus you have tons of luggage space - much better than a TC or CV.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Well, the talk I heard was a fancy 2 row version with seat tracks for the 2nd row and reclining seats etc. That would require a lot more engineering than just a 3rd row option.

    allen: Taurus/Taurus X ?? HAHA What was that 60's song? "The Name Game"
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The concept IS a 2 seater with reclining seats and there is a possibility they'll offer that configuration as a production luxury livery vehicle. It would certainly be more comfortable and hold more cargo and luggage than a comparable Town Car or other limo. The question is whether the 7 passenger version will keep the same rear design as the 4 passenger.

    And if Ford can do 3 versions of a vehicle (Taurus/Sable/Taurus X) on one platform there's no reason they can't do 3 with the Flex platform (Flex, MKT 4 and MKT 7).
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Latest Motor Trend has a profile pic of this thing. I had forgotten what a truly UGLY MUTHA it is. The bustle back thing is even worse than some of the horrible Cadillac Sevilles from the 80s.

    In the accompanying article, we learn that the Fusion is moving to the Mondeo chassis in 2009 or 10. Wow, the great Mazda 6 chassis didnt last long eh? Doesnt seem to me to be very economical to be changing the whole car from tires up after just a few years. I'm sure they know what they're doing though, eh? Oh, except Dearborn is now in a feud with Ford Australia who both claim to be designing the new GRWD platform.

    So back to the Fusion and we learn that there almost certainly wont be a new Milan. Oh and the Mariner is being dropped to be replaced, just EXACTLY as I predicted, by a Lincoln version of the Ford Escape. Boy, I'll bet that'll be a fine luxury effort. Can u believe Ford is going to rebadge THAT POS as a Lincoln? What's next? A Locus? So that will leave Mercury with ... the Sable and ... Marquis? Ha. So, this info pretty much confirms that Mulally is FOS when he says Mercury is safe. Mercury will be gone by 2010, just as, again, I predicted.

    Thinking about what Lincoln will have though - a MKZ, not exactly a luxury car, a rebadged Escape HAHAHAHA, a rebadged Edge, the mks FINALLY? with a cheapo interior and maybe the Navigator by Gillette or will they finally retire that? It seems to me that it's not Mercury that's going away, but Lincoln is being morphed into an expensive Mercury.

    Oh and they're gonna put bigger wheels on the Edge Sport. Now isnt that special. No engine or anything. Just wheels and a trim name. As to engines, they're saying the much anticipated ecoboost engine will get 2! that's TWO WHOLE mpg more than the engine it replaces. Wow. And how much more will they cost? And how much less reliable will they be? Bye bye (Ford). :confuse:
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Motor Trend is wrong. The 2010 Fusion and Milan will be on an updated CD3 platform with some needed changes to make it more competitive. A more powerful 4 cyl engine and stability control along with refreshed sheetmetal, upgraded interior, and better NVH control will make the Fusion and Milan more competitive. The 2009 Mazda 6 will be even better, IMO, and it will be here this fall.

    The 2010 MKZ will hopefully reach a bit higher than the current model. It needs the 3.7 engine, a new interior with rear HVAC vents, manumatic, power tilt/telescope wheel, the split grille, and hood struts. I don't know if it will get all that but it needs it. The MKS better get the Ecoboost SOON.

    Jeyhoe, you came up with a great name for the Escape based Lincoln - MKPOS! Good job! I see why Ford likes for you to attend focus groups!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    As to engines, they're saying the much anticipated ecoboost engine will get 2! that's TWO WHOLE mpg more than the engine it replaces.

    They're talking about using the EB 3.5L to replace 4.6 and 5.4 V8s, or for EB 2.5L to replace the 3.5L/3.7L V6s. Same power, 2 mpg improvement. Considering automakers go out of their way to gain just a tenth of one mpg - 2 is huge.

    The rest of the article, and most of your rant, is simply wrong.
  • I like your style, jeyhoe, but can't agree on the MKT. It is innovative. The style takes the risk of alienating some people (like you), which is good and very much needed...because to some others it will stand out...shine. To each his own. For you of course it leaves slim Lincoln pickings, but it will sell well regardless. It is far prettier than the Infiniti FX, and that thing does darn well. And it doesn't look a thing like the Flex.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    As Mark Fields said last week on Autoline - some people hate it but others love it. And the key is that the people that love it - REALLY love it. To the point that it becomes a "gotta have it" vehicle.

    If you consider that 16M vehicles will be sold this year and 100K is a good sales target - that means you only have to convince 6.25 people out of every 1000 buyers. And it probably means you can sell at a premium instead of bargain basement.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Well, 100,000 is a whole lot of big fat gas-hog RWD bustle-back people movers, I'll tell ya that. In, what, 2012? When the price of gas is likely to be $10 gallon? And cafe kicks in the following year at 31.5 is that correct? What was the LSes' best year? 70K or so? My bet is they wont sell more than 30,000 of the thing the first year, IF they even build it.

    I know they know lots more about it than me, even though they cant agree on who is designing the platform for the thing (and THAT is public knowledge. There are stories to that effect out there)

    And REALLY glad they can screw the customer over big time on this, selling for a premium price, as they did with the Navigator. Which they lowered the price on by 5 or 6 thousand a few years after I bought mine. I was ruminating the other day about what I might replace it with. Having done more research now on selling it than just checking the KBB price, I realize I wont be able to afford to sell it. Cant afford to drive it. No one to blame but myself and the environmentalists and democrats but I digress again. I'm now hoping now they'll pay ME to take it off the road to save the planet. That oughtta work, eh?

    I know you said most of my rant was BS, but gave no specifics. Since I can verify what I said about the GRWD, what else was wrong? You dont really believe they're going to keep Mercury, do you?

    And I loved bruce's name for the Lincoln Escape - the MKPOS !!! HAHAHA GREAT one bruce.

    I thought my "Locus" was pretty good too, eh? Cant wait to see the lincolnized version of THAT.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I just used 100,000 as a round number - I don't think Ford has released its sales target yet. 40,000 wouldn't surprise me - with a shared platform and normal pricing they can make money at that volume. And that means they only need to convince 2 or 3 people per 1000 buyers.

    People aren't going to switch from V8 Navigators and Expeditions to tiny cars. A unibody crossover with V6 power should provide a good migration path. I don't see the other luxury players abandoning their mid to large sized crossovers.

    The BS I was referring to was the MT information. The MKT will be built on the Flex platform - there's no question about that or who will be designing and building it - at least not that I've heard. I think you're confusing this with the GRWD platform. I highly doubt there is really any confusion or debate as to whether the Aussies or US would take the lead - it sounds like it's going to Dearborn and the Aussies are whining about it.

    And you should know by now that a small Lincoln crossover would NOT be a rebadged Escape or even a European Kuga. It would just use the same platform. The MKS and MKT should be proof that Lincoln is no longer in the rebadge business.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    OK, so 100,000 is a made up number. So is 40,000 actually. I'll still bet my 30,000 is closest.

    I must apologize because I was thinking the T is the RWD car. Forgot it's a flex. Must admit - good job of badge engineering - fooled me! One is square ugly, other curvy-ugly though so there's still a family resemblence. And we havent seen the interior yet - dont even begin to tell me it will resemble the concept.

    Sorry, Bruce, MT says ALL NEW Fusion in 2010 and will be on 3 year-old Mondeo platform. Since Allen has not refuted that, it sounds like truth to me. In fact, they also rumor that the next taurus will be on that and that CD3 will probably go away since only the Taurus X and mks will be on it. From which I infer that the mks will probably be another 3 year and out model cause the taurus x has no reason to live with the flex and edge around. And could probably further infer that Volvo will be going on the block soon.

    As for badge engineering, using 2 not-yet-existing cars as 'proof' while the only 2 that exist (Z and X) are corrolaries to your theorem, is a bit absurd. As for the escape, good luck trying to make that a lincoln, badge engineered or not. MT states unequivocally that Lincoln escape is in development for 2010 and Mariner is going away. And hey- since they think they can tack on $10000 to the price of the escape if it has the Lincoln name on it it's a no-brainer for them. It'll be another crappy Lincoln, but what's one more? Can u imagine cross shopping the escape with the FX-35 or the LX-350? HAHAHAHAHA

    And one more time - Is Mulally lying about Mercury not going away? You know he is. I've bought my last Ford product, tell u that.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Sorry, Bruce, MT says ALL NEW Fusion in 2010 and will be on 3 year-old Mondeo platform. Since Allen has not refuted that, it sounds like truth to me.

    But I did refute it by agreeing with Bruce! The 2010 Fusion will roll off the lines in December and be on sale in January. It's still using the CD3 platform (maybe with a few small modifications) and will have a new nose, new upgraded interior, new 2.5L I4, 240 hp 3.0L (with better FE than the old 221 hp 3.0L) and a 2.5L I4 Hybrid. There is supposed to be at least a limited sport version with the 3.5L V6 but that's not confirmed.

    CD3 and EUCD will merge in the next generation CD platform in another 2-3 years.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    As for badge engineering, using 2 not-yet-existing cars as 'proof' while the only 2 that exist (Z and X) are corrolaries to your theorem, is a bit absurd.

    Oh c'mon, George. It's called change. The OLD platforms shared a lot including body panels, interiors and even drivetrains. The NEW platforms don't share any body panels, drivetrains or interiors. Nobody would look at the MKS and Taurus and think they're even related. I don't know what other proof you could want.

    And one more time - Is Mulally lying about Mercury not going away? You know he is.

    No, I don't know that it is and neither do you. I don't think Ford has decided what to do with Mercury yet. What they've done is decide to put all of their resources into Ford and Lincoln right now. There will be a 2010 Milan because it was already "in the can".

    Mercury will not be rebadged Fords going forward - that part seems clear. It MIGHT be killed - or it might be used for smaller volume niche and unique vehicles. Ford doesn't have to decide right now. There aren't any stand alone Mercury dealers.

    Of course the single biggest reason to keep Mercury around is Jill Wagner. Maybe someone can convince her to start selling those rebadged ugly Lincolns that nobody wants to buy.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Sorry, missed it.

    MT also talks that Fusion might be next with ecoboost after mks.

    Nothing to say about Mercury though? ;)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Yep, what Allen just said.

    I will add two more things:

    The good looking Taurus that is scheduled for late 2009 introduction (2010 model year) will be on an upgraded version of the current platform - D3 -2, same as the MKS. After that, around 2012, it very well may merge to something else.

    I also subscibe to MT along with C & D and Autoweek. Often the folks at MT don't know their *sses from a hole in the ground. C & D is usually a lot more accurate.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There is talk of the Fusion getting an Ecoboost engine - but it would be the 2.5L version putting out 260 hp, not the 340 HP 3.5L. V6 power with I4 Fuel Economy. However, that engine seems to be at least a year away, maybe more.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    MT wrong again then. They're saying it'll be the V6 in the Fusion Sport. BTW, similar Mazda engine was trashed in a comparo in C&D this month. Terrbli gas mileage. Is Ford going to build a better, more economical engine than their Japanese partners? That would be a first, eh?
  • ptg0ptg0 Member Posts: 4
    A wise man would reserve his opinion until he has the chance to see the "concept"
    in person. I shudder to imagine an Englishmans interpretation of what a "Lincoln" is supposed to be.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Ford EcoBoost is not the same as Mazda's 2.3L Turbo. They've been saying publicly 15%-20% better FE than a V6 or V8 of similar power. As conservative as they've been lately with HP ratings, etc. I don't think they'd be saying that in public if they weren't 99% sure they could deliver it. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Is there *anyone* out there who will buy a FLM over a competitor because you can say "Play Michael Bolton" and it will? I know I remain totally unimpressed. I am getting really sick and tired of all the sync commercials.

    Umm.....yes. Here's one. I've tried out the SYNC, and it's so far superior to anything GM has, especially their outdated and stale Blondestar product. The only car that matches everything Ford has with SYNC is Lexus, and of course, it's much more costly to drive Lexus than Ford. Yes, I'll be there to line up for SYNC in my next
    Ford truck or SUV. Maybe even in my next Luxury Car, if it's a Lincoln. I AM impressed, but......YMMV. ;)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    The last thing I want to see when I look at my dashboard is the word "Microsoft".
  • Guess I'd rather see that than "Check Engine."
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    or "Yugo."

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  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    You got me on Yugo! But I'll take CEL over Bill Gates any day. At least you can fix the cause of CEL. You'll NEVER get rid of that little thief BG.
  • Are we having sour grapes because someone has more money than God does??
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Sour grapes? Maybe. Or just experience and knowledge.

    I know this - God got his/her money the old fashioned way - He/She earned it.

    OTOH, Bill Gates is a lying, thieving monopolist who's never had an original thought that didn't revolve around obtaining by whatever means necessary someone else's intellectual capital.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Finally - something we agree on!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    OH Brother...... :sick:
  • Hmm...I would hazard a guess that you don't like the guy. How do you feel about Warren Buffett? Oops...I guess I have to ask, how do you feel about Warren in an MKT? Giving practically his entire fortune to Bill Gates? :P
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Warren used to drive a Town Car - was auctioned away last year on Ebay. Now he drives a Cadillac. Not a fancy guy. Bill Gates reportedly drives a car like mine, Lexus LS430, but he may have updated since then......

    Both of them are liberals, both of them create a ton of jobs in this country and elsewhere, both of them are geniuses. I find it interesting WHAT they drive, but beyond that, they don't interest me much. I don't spend any emotion on either of them.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Bill Gates fills most of his jobs in this country with imported people. He's been doing that since the 80s. Long before anyone else.
  • Hmmm...sounds like a smart guy, even if you don't like his tactics.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I have lots of issues with MS software and how it's designed and implemented (so does anyone else who's used Unix, Linux or a Mac) - it's a nightmare to fix when it doesn't work.

    But I have even more issues with their business practices. They used to require a pc seller to buy a windows license for every PC they sold, whether or not windows was actually installed or not, otherwise they would not allow the seller to install windows at all (or at a much higher price). Since 90%+ of pc buyers wanted windows this amounted to extortion and forced Linux and other non-MS operating system users to pay for windows even if they didn't use it.

    Now back to the MKT - I saw a spy shot of a test mule - looks like only minor differences from the concept (on the outside).
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Yes of course. Undermining American workers is always a smart idea, eh? What industry are YOU in?
  • Oh, sometimes I just can't resist giving the bear a poke! :P

    And I don't think most bazillionaires in the end give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] (give a rat's [non-permissible content removed]...in the end...) about American workers if there is enough cash in doing it some other way. That's the way they often get to the place where they can order God and his minions around. But then I am just cynical about people who amass fortunes greater than many small countries.
  • I see by the spy shots appearing that the MKT has been made much more conventional looking compared to the concept. I know that some of you will celebrate that (jeyhoe for example), but I am disappointed that the bustle back now looks more like the back of a station wagon, and the back seat door cutouts have lost the elegant look of the concept that was evocative of past Lincolns, and plain station wagon/SUV style side doors have been substituted.

    Given that the thing looks a lot more like another tall wagon now, how will this really go over, given the Pacifica/Caddy SRX/Taurus X tall wagon look falls flat with the buying public? Provocative and polarizing is what Lincoln needs, not cautious station wagon styling, which is only jazzed up only a bit with the cow catcher grill. Oh, well, glad I'm not making these decisions. Plus, I can cross this thing off my future shopping list. One of the last things I want is a CUV that more or less blends in with everything else.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    I agree with you on this, greg. I liked the bustle back and the pretty daring styling chance they took. Generic won't sell.
  • tourguidetourguide Member Posts: 190
    Well, OK maybe not THAT bad, but it looks like a combination of a Chrysler 300C and a Toyota Venza. The looks of this thing just DO NOT appeal to me at all. The gigantic cow-catcher grill and the extremely long snout - ugh. I was hoping this would be a nice looker, but like the Flex it appears to be another "polarizing design" from the team that knows how to produce them.
  • The grill is about the only thing they did right. In case you haven't noticed, the trend is now away from anonymous and/boring little grills. Everyone screamed when Audi adopted its bold grill look. Now the complaints have stopped. So I suggest you all get used to bold grills. It is what is selling now. This too will pass.

    Meanwhile, the rest of the MKT is boring wagon. Very big too. The wagon-y look has not done well. Stupid buying public response, as SUVs and CUVs are nothing more than tall station wagons with metal bending that makes them look either more butch or more sporty (as if a big heavy tall car can really be sporty). The MKT production model looks designed by committee...dumbed down. Lincoln should know by now that bolder grills don't change perceptions much if the rest of the ride is unremarkable looking (examples being the Navigator, the MKX, changing the grill of the Zephyr/MKZ a couple times). The MKT may have done ok in a better market, but the timing sucks.

    Hopefully, Lincoln has some plans other than competent bores like the MKS down the pike. The Concept C (like the Mini but far more useful) would sell in this climate, but even if they are serious, 2013 is probably a realistic sell date, And the world and the ball will have moved a lot more by then. Seems Lincoln can't get a break. No one had any idea how truly truly damaging Bill Ford was to Ford and Lincoln. Had they had the Continental and NaviCross to sell in the early 2000s, they might have a bit more development money now for products that would address current conditions.

    One thing is sure...once the economy recovers some (and who knows how long that will take), oil prices will shoot up again. For once in a long time, Ford could be at the forefront of things, if they continue to develop innovations like the Concept C, for Lincoln, and the Fiesta, Ka and Focus for Ford.

    We'll see if Ecoboost works well with 4 cylinders...the 3.5 Ecoboost V6 is awfully complex, adds weight and requires AWD (more weight). A good small modern V8 with cylinder deactivation could easily match (or best) both the hp and mpg. Hopefully, the Ecoboosts will be further refined so that mpg continues to climb. Eord has their eggs in this basket now...I really really wish this effort well.

    Meanwhile, here we have the MKT...well almost...it is not even for sale until this summer! Maybe it will catch on with former Navi owners...
  • tourguidetourguide Member Posts: 190
    We'll see if Ecoboost works well with 4 cylinders

    I do not think Ecoboost is going to be the catchall improvement people are hoping for. It does remain to be seen, but if it were TRULY the life saver for Ford I say it would have been rolled out across the lines. Ford would not be placing it in their luxury segment first and almost exclusively right now if it were really that fabulous. No, I think it will provide modest mpg improvement that will quickly diminish to zero when you stomp the throttle. In short, it sounds to me like a marketing point rather than a substantive change.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So you can drive it normally and get good fuel economy but have the power there when you need it? What's not great about that?

    The reason they're debuting the 3.5L first is simple - it was designed as a performance engine first (original name was twinforce) way before gas hit $4/gallon. The fuel economy angle came recently, and it will take time to get the smaller displacement ecoboost engines online. If this was the only thing Ford had to work on they might be able to do it more quickly, but the resources are stretched thin and there were more important things to work on, like the 2010 Fusion Hybrid and Taurus.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Maybe it will catch on with former Navi owners...

    I am a former Navi owner (twice). I think the MKT is the ugliest thing I've seen in ages.....and I was really considering it - hoping it would be gorgeous like the MKS. Oh well - it seems to me the FLEX is a bomb, and this looks to be even worse. Maybe I'll be wrong. I drove Lincolns for 16 years, and only quit in 05 when they had nothing left worth driving but the Navigator, and I didn't want another SUV then. I wish I could go back to them, but can't do it with the product they have still. Love the looks of the MKS, but not the little engine that can't.....
  • And it is a vehicle still for sale. Whoever approved the dumbed-down styling from the concept to the reality of this pig should be embarrassed. And fired. The concept brought to market, despite its controversy, would have done so much better than this boring station wagon with baleen teeth. What the hell did they think was so wrong with the concept? At least it had character and looked like nothing else. It didn't have second row doors that looked like every other station wagon that has ever been. This person/these people got paid good money to make a call that was not even a safe decision...it was just stupid.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Slow day Gregg? I think it's safe to say with Wolff heading a new dedicated Lincoln design group that we won't see a repeat of the MKT styling.

    I also think the MKT will be relegated to livery service if it survives and the new MKS will be on a stretched and much better platform. Apparently Wolff was only able to make small changes to the MKZ (other than the grille) so it will be interesting to see how the first clean sheet design looks. But I'm sure it will be worlds better than the MKT.
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