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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester
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Comments
But you “thought” yes, that GLK has “competent handling”: but Oh whoopee, that’s not the case: it’s beaten in slalom by x3, x5, x6, lr2, mdx, rdx, q5, outlander, and even by Toyota! Shame. For $45K I’d expect a better performance.
I’ve never “thought” or said that Outlander GT has the “best in class braking or acceleration”, but Outlander has good braking and acceleration for the money. In fact it’s good enough to beat Rover LR2, Acura MDX, and Mercedes ML350 in 0-60 acceleration test.
>>>> Outlander has “fully-flat seating function (first and second row)”
>> Why do I care if the driver's seat folds flat?
You tell me, you started the "flatseat" topic. But you seem to “care” that the Outlander front passenger seat folds flat, and in addition Outlander 2nd row seat reclines and slides back. Ooh whoopee, the GLK does not do any of that...
Wire? Wow.
Epic music, Audi logo close up, Quattro logo close up, the man in black wool coat gets in the car, and a wire.
The other real life video gives better idea what happens with no wire and spikes.
It's not quite what they lead you to believe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObdPVYAGCXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtWSXhWJt2I
(and I don't really care because I will never attempt that)
Are we done? :P
I think I'll pass on drinking the Kool-Aid.
-Frank
On dry pavement (such as on a track) it can sense torque (TorSen stands for Torque Sensing) and send more power to one side, equal to what's called the bias ratio. It doesn't wait to react to slip, so I'd consider that proactive.
Audi's center Torsen has a bias ratio of 2 to 1, so it can actively send double the power to the axle with greater traction (as long as both axles have some grip). Works great on the track.
Not so great on ice, plus the 3 Torsens were extremely expensive, so Audi kept just the center Torsen and now uses traction control. Better or worse? That's open for debate. Better on ice, yes.
What you describe sounds like what Honda used in the Prelude SH back in 1997, they called it ATTS, but it basically did the same thing (with FWD).
What year did Mitsu start using it?
It was impressive 25 years ago and remains impressive today.
That's nearly a full size car, and the compact Forester offers 42.2" between the wheel wells (Outlander falls between the two).
Decided not to bother test driving it.
I bet it sells like hotcakes, though. They were out of brochures. Honda could sell a rock if they put an "H" on it.
Next, I went next door to Rockville Mitsubishi - heads up fushigi, they have a GT in stock, though it's not available for test drive. They did let me get in and check it out, though. If you're in the Mid Atlantic region, I bet it's still there, if you wanted to see it.
I prefer the styling with the roof rails, it looks sort of "naked" without them (I feel the same way about the base Forester 2.5X, which also lacks those). It just looks less SUV, more station wagon.
They added chrome trim around the windows, also. I don't like chrome, but that's personal taste, my wife likes it.
The mirrors are unique and have integrated turn signals. The wipers are also upgraded to the same kind my 09 Forester has, those one-piece blade-style. Nice. Wheels were still covered in plastic so I didn't get a look at those.
DOH - just realized I forgot to pop the gas cap and check if it said anything about fuel requirements. My bad. It looked pre-production anyway.
Seats were wrapped in plastic but I think they're the same as the XLS'.
The leather dash is a nice upgrade, and it runs across the dash an into the tops of the door panels. The arm rests are still vinyl, which is odd because the dash gets real leather that contrasts with it - and what I don't get is why? They're on the same door panel, why not do them both in leather? Maybe it will still make production.
They didn't seem to do anything else, which is disappointing. The headliner still feels like cardboard with dryer lint glued on. The other plastics were not upgraded. IIRC you lose the dash-top storage bin.
Like the Forester, the seats, steering wheel, and shift knob are all wrapped in real leather, so the stuff you touch does feel nice.
The moonroof is small - the visible part of the glass is only 11.5" long. The good news is it was listed as standard, the leather and Navi were the options (price was $33k).
Keep in mind this was pre-production, but still no struts to raise the hood, no door sill protectors. Plastic sun visor is sadly class-standard. Under the hood, the fluid caps are all different colors (Subaru uses yellow for everything so it's easier to find). The cargo area carpet looks unfinished and was secured in place by velcro? Again, could just be pre-production.
Check it out, fushigi, if you're in the Mid-Atlantic area.
I know that . The same procedure was used on the 2005 remake and that's the one available to demonstrate that it wasn't just a straight up climb on a stock car. Look at the original around 40 sec and 45 sec and you will see the cable. (snow flying up in the middle on the head on shot). There also appears to be many 2"X4" at intervals across the jump (later just under the snow?...stop the 2005 "making of" video around 25 sec.) Notice also on the practice of the 2005 stunt that once it stopped about 1/2 way up it wasn't gonna go any further, regardless of the spikes.. Impressive as Audi's may be you can't overcome the fact that once momentum was lost they were hosed. It's just physics. It's a nice publicity stunt, but not real world. (just what were the spikes digging into through the thin snow cover?)
The stunt I'd like to see based on physics is a Formula one car could stick to the road upside down at speed due to the ground effects (3000 lb downforce on a 1500 lbs car at 150 mph). Not likely that will ever be demonstrated though!!
The 2010 Mitsu brochure (full line, they didn't have Outlander brochures yet) says S-AWC "add left to right torque transfer", which is what any limited-slip (and Honda's ATTS) does.
The video with that Outlander making forward progress with traction to only 2 wheels is nice, but let's see them put it on that roller ramp to see if it can climb with just 1 wheel. We've seen the Tribeca and Legacy do that. I've also seen 2 BMWs (X5 and 330xi) and a Benz do it.
I just see a big opportunity for Mitsubishi to market S-AWC if they can demonstrate this at car shows, rally events, etc.
I just see a big opportunity for Mitsubishi to market S-AWC if they can demonstrate this at car shows, rally events, etc. "
Whatever floats your boat. In 2007 I was looking for best rounded approach to 4WD/AWD with a decent interior size and good mpg with good towing capability. The existing Forester then was too small and cost more. If S-AWC was an option that cost a few thousand more I wouldn't have paid for it. I've yet to get stuck towing my snowmobile trailer up hills (not ski ramps mind you!)
Rockville Mitsubishi was empty, though. You could hear crickets chirping. And they had 6 or 7 new 2010s. Right next door people are waiting in line to drive the ugliest car on the planet (priced some $10-12 grand or so more than you paid).
Add some spice to the marketing. Host events to get the word out about S-AWC. Demos sell the sizzle, as they say, and get plenty of attention. It is quite literally put up on a pedestal.
Under $25k is a good price, but Mitsu isn't going to make profits giving them away, especially the GT.
What better way to convince people it's worth the extra $2 grand over the XLS than to show it in action?
BMW did it with the 3 series sedan at the Ultimate Driving Event, so it's not just showing off road capability, it's showing AWD (front-rear) and traction management (side-to-side on both axles) capabilities.
From what I've read here and from the Mitsu Facebook postings the GT has been trickling into dealers slowly. I'd have to think you sat in a production model but possibly one that hasn't had the dealer prep completed.
I agree about the roof rails from what I've seen in photos. SUVs in general just look better with them even if you don't plan on using them.
Wheel covers are only on the base ES trim; all others have alloys.
I don't mind chrome as long as its done tastefully; i.e. minimal as an accent and note shouting/in-your-face. Current Acura chrome treatment (grills) is not tasteful.
At the very least, because the keyless entry wasn't even programmed. We had to use the key to get in.
I meant alloys, they just had white plastic film covering them, I guess for protection. Sorry that wasn't more clear.
We agree about the Acura grille, too. This thread is getting downright friendly!
Good luck shopping.
>> Not so great on ice, plus the 3 Torsens were extremely expensive, so Audi kept just the center Torsen and now uses traction control.
Not just traction control. Audi now buys pricey torque vectoring systems from ZF.
>> What you describe sounds like what Honda used in the Prelude SH back in 1997, they called it ATTS, but it basically did the same thing (with FWD). What year did Mitsu start using it?
1996
Mitsu Evo 4, Galant, and Legnum VR-4 with torgue vectoring AWD system and with sophisticated electronics sensing was manufactured since 1996:
“In 1996, Mitsubishi equipped the Lancer Evolution IV with the world's first Active Yaw Control (AYC) system. The AYC transfers drive torque between the left and right drive wheels as required. This was achieved by utilising a torque transfer rear differential which is controlled by various sensors and an electronic control unit (ECU) to enable a difference in torque to go to each of the rear wheels. The result is a dramatic improvement in cornering performance and improved safety. The eighth generation Galant/Legnum VR-4 model was released for the Japanese market in 1996 that also featured the AYC system, in addition integrated to now fully evolved active stability control (ASC) system... Active yaw control ... can actively split torque based on input from various accelerometers in the vehicle measuring longitudinal and lateral g forces, steering, brakes and throttle position” – Wikipedia
1997
That Prelude in 1997 was just a FWD vehicle with active front diff.
2003
EVO 8 released with new generation Super Active Yaw Control.
2005
05 Acura RL with SH-AWD was offered for sale: 2 rear wheel torque vectoring.
2007 EVO X. 4-wheel torque vectoring . S-AWC uses torque vectoring technology to send different amount of torque to any wheel at any given time.
2007
EVO X. 4-wheel torque vectoring . S-AWC uses torque vectoring technology to send different amount of torque to any wheel at any given time.
Ricardo 2 rear wheel torque vectoring system was installed on Audi for technology demonstration.
2008
ZF / GKN Driveline torque vectoring systems were installed on several MB, Audi and BMW X6.
You still think that commercial was real thing? That is impossible without special equipment like spikes and wires. "The spikes are raised" - German subtitles say in the video.
This video on the other hand is a real thing, where Audio "climbed straight":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTs0MCQHrzE
Actually, I would get S-AWC not so much for off-roading, but for its exceptional handling capabilities and safety of high speed highway driving. It's no coincidence that both cars on the top of Edmunds slalom test are equipped with latest torque vectoring AWD systems: BMW X6 M, and Outlander GT.
"Seriously though, I let you get this right" why your $45K Mercedes has plastic dash instrument panel, while that $29K Outlander comes with double-stitched leather instrument panel "?!?!?!?!?" Isn't the Mercedes suppose to be a luxury car?
I know I've been guilty of mentioning others but will try to do better.
We're shooting for a Wednesday test drive of the GT.
Back down to earth ... let's remember lateral grip was a very modest 0.75g. The X6 M managed 0.91g. Not exactly in the same ballpark.
S-AWC should have helped - send more power to the outside wheel to help it get around a constant radius. Why didn't it help? Forester did better without torque vectoring, and it didn't do very well, either.
S-AWC seemed to help in quick, short bursts in a slalom, but not over a long, constant radius.
Both the Outlander GT and the Forester XT should be shivering scared when they see an Aveo challenge them around a highway exit ramp, because it managed a whopping 0.77g.
I'm just putting things in to perspective. An econobox can literally run circles around either of these. The cheapest car sold in America!
Many compromises are made to get the ground clearance desired in this class, and neither Subaru nor Mitsubishi can cheat the laws of physics.
We have Crossover SUV Comparison for the "rest" of them.
It wasn't long ago that the Outlander v Forester talk dominated that discussion, so we moved a lot of those posts over here.
Like Edmunds, the Forester did better in braking, lateral grip, and acceleration, but the XT even wins the Figure-8 handling loop as well. It's a total sweep:
Category, Forester XT, Outlander GT with Super-All Wheel Control:
0-60mph 6.6s 7.4s
1/4 mile 15.1s 15.8s
trap speed 89.0mph 88.7mph
figure 8 28.1s 28.4s
avg lateral gs in figure 8 .60g .58g
60-0 127ft 136ft
lateral grip 0.78g 0.76g
Forester wins 7 out of 7, including all 4 handling categories.
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Subaru was up 24% for the month, up 14% for the year. The Forester model alone outsold all of Mitsubishi both in November and year-to-date.
The timing for the arrival of the GT could not be better, though. They need a hit.
I also think they need some better marketing. I still think the ramp demonstration idea could turn things around for them.
Yeah but it doesn't have a leather dash :P
I wonder what impact that will have since they were already on thin ice for being able to remain in the US market.
My guess is they just don't want to put $3000 cash back on the hood to move the metal, so noone's buying. One ad I saw had a $1500 incentive, but that doesn't seem to be inticing enough. Consumers know prices were a lot lower last year, and they'll wait.
I actually agree with the strategy to move away from big incentives, but start with the new 2010 model, and clear out the leftovers. Rockville Mitsubishi still has 2007 Outlander brochures in the showroom.
They keep running out of 2010 Forester brochures. Bob says the model on the cover looks exactly like my wife and I want one BADLY but I can't find it!
Given that huge weight advantage, I would have expected the XT's performance margins to be bigger though.
“premier” I’ve never said it’s “a bad thing”. I could just say that Audi own “legendary” Quattro suddenly becomes so outdated that they have to buy third a party AWD . Audi lost it's leadership in AWD technology and have to use the same stock AWD as other "premier" car manufacturers.
>> Back down to earth ... let's remember lateral grip was a very modest 0.75g. The X6 M managed 0.91g. Not exactly in the same ballpark.
Skid pad ? There is not so much steering going on and it’s not as much handling test as slalom. Skid pad measures lateral acceleration: road grip and G forces. Besides Car and Driver test registered 0.81G for Outlander better then Forester and closer to that 0.91G number. But the $95K X6M also has twice more expensive sports tires.
>> neither Subaru nor Mitsubishi can cheat the laws of physics.
But Audi could. If they use snow spikes and “premier” German steel wire : --)
Forester XT is definitely much quicker on tests involving acceleration, but what else you would expect, Forester is lighter and it has Mitsubishi turbocharger! This Mitsubishi EVO style turbocharger is one of the best, even BMW buys it.
Otherwise these tests are too close. “Trap speed” 89.0mph vs. 88.7mph ? Common, big deal! Like I’ve said the other test shows better Outlander lateral grip of 0.81g vs. Forester’s - "it managed a whopping 0.78g".
Oh, you did not know... Forester is not suppose to have leather dash. It has plastic dash appropriate to the price. Your GLK plastic dash however is disrespect to Mercedes customers. For $45 grand they deserve more.
GLK was just released but it has already outdated Bluetooth, which is not capable of audio streaming. Shame, even one of new Subaru cars has it.
We’ve discussed this already a few times. Globally Mitsubishi still sells twice more cars then Subaru. Subaru global sales this year dropped by about 50,000 cars (10%) and company lost this year 3/4 billion dollars. Next year sales projected to drop again 3rd year in a row. At these rates of decline Subaru will not be able to invest in new AWD systems, hybrid/electric technologies, electronics and transmissions, so you’d have to drive your 3-speed Foresters for the next decade. Customers would not care anyway since a "symmetrical AWD" and "boxer" sounds so cool.
>> I also think they need some better marketing. I still think the ramp demonstration idea could turn things around for them.
That’s for sure Mitsu marketing sucks. Subaru marketing is the best in North America.
This is a GT, so perhaps they should have done more - delete the 3rd row, bigger brakes, lowered suspension?
EPA says it has up to 139.4 cubic feet of space, but the Forester has 141.1.
Both lose space for the moonroof and that subwoofer takes up another 2.8 cubic feet as well.
Keep in mind the Forester reached that higher speed in less time - 15.1 seconds rather than 15.8 seconds.
Subaru thanks Mitsu for the TD04 turbo but we still hope the Sports XT gets the same major upgrades that the WRX recently got from IHI, notably this:
That's a VF52, not supplied by Mitsu.
How could you know that if the year hasn't ended?
Earlier you criticized me for using projections, and those projections were revised anyway. Outback sales were up 142% last month. The only limitation right now is capacity.
3 speed? :confuse:
Very true. The Subaru factories are working overtime, and still can't keep up with the demand. Heard that directly from someone at Subaru.
It's rumored the next Subaru factory to be built will be in China, as Subaru feels that's the next great market to exploit.
Bob
That may be true but is little to comfort to someone who buys a Mitsubishi product only to see them abandon the North American market. I'm not saying that's a given but if they don't improve sales volume, at some point Mitsubishi is going to make the business decision to stop hemorrhaging money.
Meanwhile five years from now, Subaru of America will almost certainly still be selling proven, effective and reliable technology like boxer engines and symmetrical AWD
Look under "C/D TEST RESULTS" and you'll note the Forester won 6 out of the 7 in C&D as well.
That's 3 out of 4 on Edmunds, 7 out of 7 on Motor Trend, and 6 out of 7 in C&D.
Maybe S-AWC stands for Subaru Always Wins Comparisons. :P
Huh? How can you argue that 3 tenths of a mph is too close to claim one is better but in the next sentence trumpet the Outlander as having better lateral grip when the difference is only 3 hundredths of a g? And you have to cherry-pick results from different reviews to obtain even that marginal advantage.
You changed that from "implied" to "said" just as I was posting this:
"That last bit is Japanese hyperbole for an electronic front differential that senses driver inputs, vehicle attitude, and wheel slip to vary engine torque to either of the front wheels with an electronically controlled clutch pack."
You're fast! :P
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
They more than implied it, hence the edit.
The leather *IS* nice, but the GT is supposed to compete in a higher price level, and they didn't upgrade the rest of the interior. You won't find headliners that visibly flex like this in a Benz:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/past-road-test/small-suvs/videos-small-s- uvs/small-suvs-videos.htm
Go to 1:18 in that review and you'll see this (it's worse than it looks, actually):
They wrote "the headliner is this really thin and flimsy material covered in a sort of mouse fur".
The Forester's is also covered in mouse fur, but at least it's rigid.
Neither of these are comparable to what you'd get in a Benz, no way no how.
If your budget is $30 grand plus, at least an Outback gets you a padded, fabric covered headliner and sunshade, similar to what an entry-level Benz would have.
Didn't you criticize lowered suspension? Brembu brakes like in prototype would be nice but price would go up.
.
>> Both lose space for the moonroof and that subwoofer takes up another 2.8 cubic feet as well.
Real subwoofer takes real space. I would rather keep real sub vs. some toy, some "Chinese hyperbole" . The panorama moonroof on Forester takes even more of space but it was a good move.
I did not say it incorporates more performance, but it incorporates more handling. 'Performance' is to vague. It includes tow capacity and payload capacity for instance.
That's a VF52, not supplied by Mitsu.
Subaru still incapable building their own turbochargers. IHI is Japanese company but it contracted China First Automobile Group to build turbocharges in China. So going from EVO class turbocharger to some Chinese turbocharger is a downgrade. After 3/4 billion dollar loss Subaru going after cheaper suppliers. Another downgrade is drop of Limited Sl. Differential on Forester. Subaru downgrades while Mitsu upgrades.