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Not that I would have any interest in a 180 HP Fiesta, but...honestly I don't get what is so terrible about a six-speed Powershift dual-clutch transmission
I don't think many people do, or they wouldn't be making it. I like shifting, I like pushing the clutch, etc. Like I said, I'm in the minority.
I hope everybody loves it and Ford sells as many as they can make. Maybe it will be the new sport compact car of choice.
For about the same price, my choice would be the powerful 3.0 (but still more fuel efficient than other 6-cyl engines from BMW) 330xi w/ sport package & manual transmission, if you can find one. B/c the AWD xi only comes with non-sport suspension even w/ optional sport package (which mainly only includes the superb front seats w/ thigh-height tilt & thigh extension), plus another 1cm of extra suspension travel over the non-sport 2WD's. AWD does have larger turning radius, though.
& I would replace 3.0's std 17" rims w/ the special 16" rim from Tire Rack that will fit over 330's extra-huge brakes to complete this comfy-riding package. & match w/ high-performance all-season H-rated Michelin Pilot Exalto 205/55-16.
B/c, over the last few years or so, I've driven Mercedes sedans, & their steering feel is too dead. This "330xi formula" I recommend has the ride comfort to compete w/ the Benz w/o the numb steering.
AWD E46's seem to have better steering feel than 2WD ones. & compare to '02 AWD, the '04 AWD's power steering seems extra heavy, if that's what you like.
Maybe it IS a mistake... when I click on the link for "Get this offer", all I get is a blank page. In fact, none of the links in the ad work. And when I use Edmund's inventory finder, I find 0 inventory in a 50 mile radius of the Twin Cities. Why would Ford offer $6000 off a car for which it has no inventory? :P
All things being equal, I like the RWD driving dynamics more so than then the AWD in that car. Another possibility would be an M3 coupe, but I think those are going to be out of my price range (actually, the 330 is too but eh gotta live a little I guess).
I think a 2000-2004 Audi S4 would be fun as well, but am concerned about the maintenance aspect.
I wonder if the Mazda2 is going to get a sport version...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Datsun_Bluebird_Coupe_(510)_001.JPG
Ford of Europe also had one since 1970, w/ exterior dimension (167.7" length, 67.1" width, 53.8" height) no bigger than today's Fiesta sedan, plus "The car's suspension was changed to a double wishbone from a MacPherson strut in order to make the ride more comfortable on the freeway."
http://www.autoevolution.com/gallery/ford-cortina-1970.html
& BMW sport sedan is at least 40yrs behind when comes to switching to double-wishbone front suspension!!! :confuse:
http://www.mk3cortina.com/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Standard_Corti- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - nas&image=greencortina.jpg&img=56&search=CORTINA&cat=all&tt=&bool=and
Just look at this old beauty. No wonder today's version no longer outsold the BMW 3-series in Britain the way it used to!
I'm serious, why doesn't Ford continue w/ the RWD Cortina? Just take the RX-8 platform, which also has double-wishbone front suspension, hello...
I should be the one in charge of Ford's product development :P
It wouldn't be more interior and cargo room. And it probably wouldn't start at $14k. And it wouldn't sell much in the US (where are the 318ti and C230K now?). You might want to wait for the new Toyota/Subaru RWD sports coupe. Relatively inexpensive as those things go, but likely over $20k, and not the people room of a small FWD car like the Fiesta. There's also other RWD cars for folks like you who demand that in a small, relatively inexpensive car, e.g. Genesis 2.0T.
Also, in case you haven't noticed, the focus (no pun intended) of small economy cars these days is on... economy, not aggressiveness. As I said, there are other cars for that kind of thing.
I think the ToyoBaru is expected to be the second coming of the AE86 (Toyota Corolla GTS from the early 80s). I am not holding my breath seeing as Toyota hasn't made a fun "sports" car in the last decade, and Subaru seems to be into going as mainstream as possible, as fast as possible. I see another early-90s Celica, an overpriced, underpowered, cramped car, but I really, really hope I am wrong.
The Hyundai Genesis coupe (4 cyl/rwd/6speed) is a very compelling package, as is the next Mustang with the 300 hp/30mpg V6, but those are both very different then the Fiesta, and I would think rightfully so,
The reason it is important is because unless you unload the front end suspension and get rid of the problem of steering and power being on the same wheels, you cannot have a truly sporty car. Very few of the "classic" sports cars that I know of, for instance, are FWD. Even the new muscle-car remakes are all coming out as RWD. BMW and Mercedes stubbornly remain RWD as well. To truly be a "hot hatchback", it needs RWD. And a very powerful engine.
The interior space would remain unchanged, unless Ford was stupid about it, because I know of RWD cars that you can't even see more than a 1-2 inch hump for the drive shaft thanks to it having 2-3 sections. The cost would remain almost the same as well. The only issue is the engine needing about 6-8 more inches room front to rear, but that's not a problem with modern engineering and the fact that the car has the entire area between the front seats as extra possible space. In the C230K, you hardly noticed the fact that it was RWD.
And Mercedes, well, the reason it sold so poorly was because of the market segment that they were in and the fact that they charged literally 2x the cost of the car. If the C230K had been 16-20K versus the 230 Sedan's 30K, it would have sold in immense numbers.
The BMW 1 series hatch is probably the only thing that I know of, and it does seem to sell reasonably well. But the price is horrendously inflated as well. What we need is Honda or Toyota to get into the game, or maybe Mazda. Ford came *this* close to making a good car a great, game-changing one.
There's no reason you can't have a "hot hatch" and have it be RWD and safe. Well, other than a lack of desire by the auto makers to build it.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0106_2002_mercedes_benz_c230_komp- - ressor_sport_coupe/index.html
Thankfully they are now quite reasonable to buy used. And manual transmissions were available as a bonus. I'd rather have one of these used than a Fiesta(just barely).
EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_CLC-Class
Oh, wait - they DO still make it. Just not in the U.S....
'01 C240 2.6 V6 sedan manual
'02 C230 Kompressor 2.3 hatch auto
'04 C320 3.2 V6 sedan auto (w/ factory lowered suspension)
'07 C230 2.6 V6 sedan manual (w/ factory lowered suspension)
I was quite unimpressed w/ later model years' factory lowered suspension. It no longer has the Mercedes-ish superior ride over deep bumps, such as speed bumps. So I ended up getting the '07 Focus ST 2.3 w/ better steering feel.
By the way, switching to hatchback from notchback can actually hurt handling, b/c the rear shelf of the notchback isn't just for insulating road noise but works like the cross bracing found in the recent Nissan Z-car. That's why the notchback G37 coupe, which shares the same platform, doesn't need one. That's why fastback hatch are switching to wagon-shape these days so the roof top can keep the structure loose-ness down.
A British car magazine, which usually drive the hatch version of the C-1 Focus, also noticed improved body structure on the sedan version!
When driving the '04 Mazda3 hatch & sedan side-by-side at the MazdaRevItUp event, I could feel the top-heavy clumsy-ness from the wagon-shape hatch.
I really really don't know if the old sharp-looking sporty RWD Mazda 3-series coupe (Grand Familia / RX-3) was an expensive small car.
LOL. I've sat in the German-made hatch over a year ago during Ford's Fiesta test-drive event as well as the Mexican-made hatch & sedan in the recent LA Autoshow. Ford is going backward w/ this cramped interior w/ exterior bulkier than the '07 Focus :sick:
The roomiest small sedan is the '83-86 Camry LE, which is just a tad narrower & shorter than today's Fiesta sedan & gets about 30mpg city & 40mpg hwy w/ its fat-torque 2.0 4-cyl!
I will have to have more seat time before I can pass judgment on it. It reminds me a lot of the 00-07 Focus 5 door, which I thought as a good thing.
The roomiest small sedan is the '83-86 Camry LE, which is just a tad narrower & shorter than today's Fiesta sedan & gets about 30mpg city & 40mpg hwy w/ its fat-torque 2.0 4-cyl!
I remember a lot of kids having those Camrys when I was in HS. I remembered them to be slow, loud poor handling cars that were very reliable. I also know they had 0 air bags, no anti-lock brakes, inadequate air conditioning, and the models that got the fuel economy lacked the power package. My neighbor had a 1986 until about 2006 or so. I don't really have any positive/fun memories of those cars.
I said; "....Sure, RWD is fun when the pavement is dry, but it's just not very functional on snow or ice."
Now, you even said that you agree that it doesn't function as well on ice. I would presume that you agree that it does not function as well on snow. Right?
How that misinformation?
I've driven plenty of RWD, AWD, and FWD cars in my life and I know where each fall short.
I don't spread misinformation.
The '83 Camry LE, which my parents used to owned one, has more hp than the '83 GTI, plus way more low-end torque. It hops off the line like a V8, & climbing the steep hills of Palos Verdes California pretty quickly & quietly at 3000rpm w/ no sweat. & this high-mpg compact-but-roomy luxury sedan was very fancy -- power everything (window/lock/cruise), great-sounding stereo w/ equalizer & subwoofer, additional A/C duct on top of the dash that blows air directly to the rear passengers w/o chilling the front passengers, & an efficient overdrive auto tranny w/ lock-up torque converter. The car even corners pretty quickly w/ Michelin MXL S-rated 185/70-13 tires. Unfortunately, its steering didn't have much feel, & it has way worse ride comfort, especially for the rear passengers, than even the '83 Tercel! Too bad, the roomy rear seating got one of the most comfortable high chairs in the world, even for 3 people sitting across!
That's why, eventually, I collected the notchback version of the '83 GTI -- an '84 Geman-made Jetta coupe -- instead of the original Camry.
It's a given that it's 100% your own stupid fault for driving a car on ice without chains and/or proper care. I've driven RWD cars on snow for years, and with chains and proper speeds, they are exactly as safe as FWD cars. Or exactly as unsafe if you're an idiot. FWD on snow won't save you magically, either. Almost every situation that would cause you to lose control with a RWD car would also cause serious problems for a FWD car - and it's the driver's fault every time for not knowing what to do or just simply getting in over their head.
Unfortunately, most drivers these days are idiots who treat a vehicle as an appliance more than a serious machine and skill to master. They forget that it's not only a way to get around town but potentially a 3500lb disaster waiting to happen if they don't treat it with proper respect.
RWD isn't an issue in any case today with stability control as an option on most new cars these days. It will be mandatory in a couple of years, so essentially RWD will be a non-issue in any case at that point in time. It's certainly not a reason to make a small hatchback FWD vs RWD. Just look at BMW and Mercedes. They love to make RWD cars and I think there's TAD of snow in Germany in the winter. I don't hear about them going all over the place and crashing every tie there's a little snow on the roads.
And to suggest that people need to put on chains is silly. Chains aren't even legal in most states and that includes mine.
The original post, though, was about the Fiesta and FWD vs RWD. And, for the car to be agile and fast you really need to get the power and the steering on different axles. There are advantages to having the power and steering on the same axle but that only applies in a few instances. The rest of the time, it deadens steering response and feel, causes torque steer, and generally makes for a pathetic driving experience.
I got a brand new Cobalt/etc when my truck was in the shop about a year ago(their fault - they had to take 24 hours to fix their mistake). Just your typical 2500lb small jellybean sedan. Maybe 1000 miles on it. The steering was physically harder to steer and slower to respond than the steering on my truck. My truck is 20+ years old, and has mud terrain tires on it. The difference between FWD and RWD when it comes to driving dynamics and responsiveness is huge.
My only hope if that the next small car like this from Toyota or Mazda is RWD.
That's because old farts dont go anywhere :P . I-80 over to Lake Tahoe, hwy 395 to Mammoth, and just about any California road going to a ski area all require chains in winter. So within 3 hours of ocean, you may need chains.
The worst trip I had was summer tires on a fwd Nissan Sentra. That was far worse than reasonably new all seasons on a 3-series of the same era. Both cars had chains. Tires and weight distribution seem to be important here as well.
FWIW, Mrs. LilEngineerBoy has an AWD wagon with snow tires in winter in Michigan, but I would have no issues with a RWD sport sedan personally. If I was that afraid to drive somewhere, I shouldn't be out on the road anyway.
Thanks!
"...... Chains aren't even legal in most states and that includes mine. "
That statement is as true now as when I wrote it. The problem lies in your reading comprehension skills.
My bad. I apologize.
We apologize for the trouble you are having comparing a 2011 Ford Fiesta with an automatic transmission to other models. Unfortunately our comparator tool only allows you to compare vehicles at the style level, and the automatic transmission on the Fiesta is an option.
While you will not be able to specify an automatic transmission for the Fiesta in the comparator tool, you can still price out the vehicle with this option:
http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fiesta/2011/index.html
1) Select a style
2) Click the red Price With Options Button
3) In the list of available options, check the box for the 6-Speed Automatic Transmission
3) Click the red TMV pricing report button
Like I said, maybe not the answer you would have ideally liked, but it moves the ball forward!
Very much appreciate you taking the time to look into this. At least I understand why it doesn't work now. Of course, Edmunds could enter the Fiesta with an automatic as a style level. As it is, someone looking to compare a Fiesta to any other comparable car in it's class might get the impression that Fiestas only come with manuals. Kind of unfairly puts the Fiesta at a disadvantage.
But hey, what do I know? I've been known to be wrong before.
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7A3EggW1VljY2M1Yzk4MzMtMmIxMC00NzRiLWFmNDMt- ZmExMzdlOGRiMjI1&hl=en
Introducing the 3-cyl RWD BMW...
"a new 1.5-litre three-cylinder unit will be available in petrol and diesel form...The new car is set to be revealed in the coming months, with sales starting in early 2011."
Ford just sold the Volvo division to China's Geely car company, along with the C-1 Focus platform...now returning as a competitor wearing Volvo's AWD system & 405hp engine w/ Quaife differentials front & back!