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I agree, but many Americans feel this way. I think that the notion that only large, heavy, powerful vehicles, or even only midsize ones, are suitable for long distance travel is outdated. While it's true that small cars of yesteryear ('40s through, say, mid '90s) weren't good highway cruisers, today's small cars are engineered incomparably better for ex-urban travel.
On jeffyscott's message, I'd say that while there's some truth in what you say, I think your response is somewhat exaggerated.
On the matter of manual vs. automatic, and tall vs. short final gearing, every choice requires significant compromises, which is precisely why there are so many choices available.
I imagine that the advent of the interstate highway system played an important role in improving cruising ability. It probably also spurred the horsepower race.
I didn't even notice that. So this is supposed to be about the former Fiesta not the new (future) one, I guess.
The three speeds you refer to manual transmissions, right? Because my first car was a 1969 Chevy with a 2 speed automatic.
Regarding the 2-speed Powerglide, your '69 Chevy started in first, and shifted automatically to second. Instead, the first Powerglides (model years '51 and '52) started in high (2nd) gear, making these cars very sluggish off the line. You could elect to start in first by moving the shift lever to "low", then manually shifting
to "drive" to engage 2nd gear, but the transmission didn't do this automatically, as your '69 did. Buick's Dynaflow operated in a similar manner.
Yeah, this discussion began and is mainly about the former Fiesta, but detouring to the future one is informative and interesting. If we're talking about small Fords that were imported into the U.S., there was also the British made Anglia of the late '40s-early '50s, and the Anglia with the reverse slant C pillar of the late '50s-early '60s, the Cortina, and the Mazda-designed, Korean built Festiva and Aspire of the late '80s-early '90s.
The first generation Anglia was truly a crude POC, and many of the bodies were eventually used for dragsters. The second generation distinguished itself, style wise, with that strange roofline. Another distinguishing feature was an extremely oversquare (very short stroke) 4-cylinder engine. I have no idea how it drove, but it was interesting in theory. I also have no idea whether it was a decent car for its day. I imagine it was better than the Renault Dauphine (a low hurdle), but maybe not as good overall as the Beetle. Maybe Shifty can provide some insight on this Anglia.
Regarding the Cortina, I've read that it was a fun-to-drive car, especially the hotter versions.
The Festiva was considered a "throw-away" car by many, but, in fact, it must have been well built because it was reliable and durable. A surprising number of them went over 200,000 miles on the original engine. For whatever reason, though, the next generation Festiva, renamed the Aspire, was not as reliable or durable. It was probably better than the Korean built Pontiac LeMans, but that car defined POC. LeMon would have been a more appropriate name for this model. Surprisingly, though, I occasionally see one of those LeMans actually being driven. I also see Festivas once in a while, but I can't remember the last time I saw an Aspire. That makes me wonder whether the Korean LeMans was indeed worse than the Aspire.
ive always gotten a manual in these types of cars because 1)it can add a little bit of texture to the driving experience, even in a slow car and 2) i still believe, regardless of epa estimates, that i can extract the best mileage by driving a manual.
I wonder how the new Fit compares with the xA, in terms of fun. Although I haven't driven either, my guess is that the Fit is a little more refined, and a tad less fun. Now, how about a Fit vs. a Civic coupe?
In addition to the new Fiesta, we'll also have the VW Polo, and probably several other economical, fun-to-drive cars to choose from. Cadillac and Lexus also plan to introduce compact luxury RWD cars, to compete more directly with the BMW 1 and 3-Series. I hope they're not too complex, gadget laden and heavy, since these things detract from the driving experience, in my opinion.
====================================================
Let's hope not! Mainly because the old Fiesta was butt ugly! :P
What will be the first truly "upscale" sub-compact to hit the U.S. market? There's many on the drawing board but what will be the first on sale?
Fiesta wasn't particularly ugly, it just wasn't particularly ANYTHING--- a very generic car in styling.
Only drove it once, but I seem to recall it was fun and even somewhat spritely. Of course, at the time, we were transitioning the family carfrom a 1969 Volvo 144 to Dodge Omni 1.6l! It was nicer than the dodge, if smaller.
I get annoyed with the shortgearing too. My miata was buzzing at 3Kbefore 60,but at least it made somesense in that car. and I rarely had it on a highway.
Now, my Scion tC with a big lumpy 2.4l? it made no sense to have that one geared almost as short. I think 3K only got me about 63mph. It certainly could handle a taller ratio!
back in the 80s, I had a colt 1.5l with a whopping 68 hp (weighed I guess1900-2000lbs). That was replaced by a 1986 mazda 323, another 1.6IIRC,with 82 hp.
both of them took a number of highway trips, and were prerfectly uitable at highway speeds (probably never over 75, and the colt was probably usually 70? but hard to remember).
The Mazda pulledpretty well in5th,but the colt? oftenhad to get dropped to 4th, aneven3rd onoccasion to pull long hills!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Heck, the Yaris is significantly larger than the late-'70s/early-'80s Fiesta. The length, width and height of the Yaris 2-door hatchback are 150.6", 66.3" and 60" vs. 140.4", 61.7" and 53.5" for the old Fiesta. Quite a difference, and the weight differential is even greater.
Even the new MINI (145", 66.3", 55.4") is bigger than the first generation Fiesta. The new MINI is a giant compared with the original Mini (120.1", 54.1", 53.1",,,Now that's small!).
Both the Festiva and Aspire were built by Kia for Ford. The small Pontiac LeMans (a real corruption of a good name BTW) was built by Daewoo for Pontiac. Thus, all three were Korean-built.
Not a sub-compact (only 84cu.ft.) and not very upscale.
I'll keep waiting.
True, the early cars rode harshly with their abominable runflat tires, but the newish ones, 2006 on up, ride pretty nicely. Besides, their handling and speed are what makes them so attractive. And with 6 speed transmissions I can't imagine decibel level would be that high anymore.
I drove a first generation BMW designed MINI, but not the more refined latest generation one. I found that I preferred the driving and ride dynamics of the Rabbit to thise if the MINI I drove. I might come to a different conclusion after driving the new MINI.
But you know, the old Mini Cooper S was a ferocious little car---yeah, noisy as the hammers of hell, constantly breaking down, but what a hoot to drive!! I have some vintage video footage from the 60s of hot rod Minis slapping Corvettes silly at theLimerock, CONN racetrack. How was that possible? Well the old Corvettes roared off the line, got way ahead of the Minis, hit the first turn, wallowed through it with their great weight and marginal braking, and the Minis passed them, never to be seen again. Of course now a modern 2010 Corvette would be too formidable an opponent for a little car like this.
The Fiesta had a bit of the old Mini Cooper in it---a knowledgable tuner could get some decent power out of that Fiesta engine (1.6L Kent engine) and in fact started a kind of cult in Europe for "hot hatches". A nicely tuned Fiesta could easily accelerate 0-60 under 10 seconds, not bad for the 80s and better than many American V8s of the time.
2003 Mini Full Test
The following generation was much improved and the Mini is a fine car. I'm hoping ALL manufacturers' bring their top compacts and subcompacts to the U.S. market.
Most subcompacts (AKA penalty boxes) in the U.S. are low end models. That is beginning to change. I expect the term "Luxury Subcompact" to hit the U.S. scene with 2-3 years. CAFE almost guarantees it.
http://www.carspace.com/blogs/MYFIESTA/
although my guess is that the fiesta will weigh about the same, maybe vvt has been added, which could help despite a smaller engine.
Regards:
OldCEM
I also like the xD, but have never driven one. However, the reviewers seem to feel the Fit sets the standard in its class, and generally rate the xD as okay, but not great. I agree that price is part of the equation, though.
http://es.autoblog.com/photos/ford-canada-filtra-el-fiesta-americano/
Note that on the hatchback, the nose is slightly longer to meet NHTSA safety standards and they changed the lower front grille to accommodate US-sized license plates. On the sedan, the upper front grille has the three-bar design to match that of other Ford models in the North American market. Note how the turn signal lights are part of the headlamp housing to meet NHTSA specifications for turn signal lights.
I think its lack of multi-link rear suspension means lack of plush ride while lacking roll control, plus the electric pwr steering lacks some feel. The compact Fiesta's biggest enemy is the compact-exterior '05-07 Focus, which I test drove the SE, SES & ST. Go test drive an used '06 Focus SES & this upcoming Fiesta, then see for yourself.
I also rode in the new fit, even w/ the base suspension, & I was still unimpressed w/ its ride comfort. Ditto the Civic LX coupe.
I wonder why people are embarrassed to be seen driving an '06 Focus SES. It's a superb car -- steering feel, ride comfort, the sedan also got wide rear visibility for easy lane change... Who can beat that?
The next Focus will not likely to have compact exterior dimension, especially the width.
As an aside, I just noticed that the wipers are really tucked down in under the trailing edge of the hood. This kind of attention, if carried out across the entire car, should keep the wind noise down quite a bit.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2011/ford/fiesta/101216523/prices.html
That listing also indicates it is a 5 speed automatic, so perhaps the manual would start about $1000 less? Elsewhere they specify 17 inch alloys, power windows, locks, and mirrors, steering wheel audio controls. So it appears to be a well equipped model (by my standards). This listing also indicates it is a 4 door hatchback.
I'm guessing this is equipped comparably to maybe a Focus SE, which has MSRP about $3000 higher.
All I know is that I got my '07 Focus ST w/ a fat-torque 2.3 Mazda-developed Duratec engine for under $16k out-the-door in California.
Yes, cars in its class should be compact enough to evade the old tax in Japan for cars wider than 170cm (5'7"). & both my '07 Focus ST & '99 BMW 328is qualify! :P
Today, If you want compact exterior w/ multi-links, & $ is no object, then there's the Mini Cooper, but it rides far from plush
Yes, even the new VW Polo failed miserably in steering feel & ride/handling when compare to the Fiesta (According to TopGear magazine).
See AutoExpress comparison:
http://newsletter.autoexpress.co.uk/c/15fiph2HIqsAVzq1ZFJ
Another amazing thing about it is its electric pwr steering that's actually more confident inspiring than my Focus ST's hydraulic pwr steering.
I wonder why Ford didn't bother using this platform to build a RWD sedan to embarrass BMW's?
I also enjoyed the fantastic handling of the RX-8, when I drove one several times at "Zoom-Zoom Live" a few years ago, I believe that was in 2006.
"....the Fiesta one-ups the Fit in any winding-road run. And a German-built version we tested here in Ann Arbor handled the worst of Michigan’s potholed roads with isolated solidity that bests some luxury cars."
"...Ford of Europe’s engineering chief, says that the dynamics of the U.S. and European cars will be the same, a change from previous policy. If so, American drivers are in for a treat because this new Fiesta is probably the best-handling and most driver-friendly of all the world’s microcars."
Unfortunately the base model was not available w/ traction/stability control, & I fishtailed it about 180 degrees while stepping on the throttle hard making a right turn in the wet (on purpose). I would get the sport model w/ stability control, then replace w/ the non-sport springs/sway-bars/rims.
If the Fiesta handled the worst of Michigan’s potholed roads with isolated solidity that bests some luxury cars, then the RX-8 w/ the softer set up can do the same in BOTH ride & handling to BOTH luxury cars & Porsche's :P
My only gripe is that they need to put that setup in the Mazda 6.
That's disappointing, since it seems that VW will offer the Polo in the U.S. Also, VW knows how to do steering feel and ride/handling because the Golf does very well in these areas.
This is probably a dumb question, since they compete in different segments and one is RWD while the other is FWD, but since you own a 3-Series and a Focus, how would you compare their steering feel and ride/handling?
But lack of low end is no fun! If future technology allows RX-8's rotary powerplant be replaced w/ an electric motor, then that would solve the only problem. B/c RWD low-end power drifting w/ the rear LSD (limited-slip differential) is loads of fun even at SAFE low speeds, just like the superb-steering-feel old Miata's.
& really, exactly how hard do you get to corner in the real world? I couldn't even reach the limit of the softly-sprung base '05 RX-8 w/ std. high-profile tires, at least not during test drives. It seemed even more impossible to touch the handling limit during my test drive of the Cayman/Boxter this year. So why sacrifice the ride comfort so far for the cornering limit you can't even approach?
I ended up buying the Focus ST instead of the better ride/handling (& quietness) RX-8 mainly b/c I get to play w/ the Focus's limit-- trail throttle produces controlled oversteer, & (after the installation of the Quaife LSD, which cuts down the chance of triggering of the traction control to kick in) heavy throttle blasts the front tires out of corners, even in the wet when the traction control actually helps the performance by taming the spinning. The '07's traction control is not so intrusive compare to the '05's tuning.
Talk about tuning, lets take a look at how Japan today ruins Fiesta's original design.
http://newsletter.autoexpress.co.uk/c/15fiph2HIqsAVzq1ZFJ
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/241327/mazda_2_sport_16d.html- -
"Driven back-to-back with the Fiesta, the 2 doesn’t have the same delicate feedback through its steering, and its body control isn’t quite as good. Ride comfort is also firmer than the Ford’s.
Yet while its set-up is harder, the suspension is settled over bumps and is comfortable enough around town."
In this comparison, the Fiesta-based Mazda2's harder suspension set up trades ride comfort for a sportier handling, but why does this sportier set up come w/ less steering feel? I was already unimpressed w/ the level of steering feel from the Fiesta.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/241336/ford_fiesta_zetec_16_t- dci.html
"Hit the motorway and the Ford doesn’t isolate road noise as well as the VW, but it’s the most flexible car, with strong pace in fifth gear.
So it’s more than happy as a long-distance cruiser.
In fact, the ride comfort, stability and general refinement put some vehicles from the class above to shame.
And on our 1,000-mile test route, which took in a proving ground, city streets, country roads and miles of motorway, we found no driving conditions that fazed the Fiesta.
The chassis is faultless – it’s easy to drive in town and then comes alive on flowing roads. The steering is communicative, sharp and precise and, with superb body control and grip, the car is reassuring and engaging to drive.
This dynamic excellence extends to the ride, too. The suspension is supple and easily irons out imperfections, so the Fiesta is as comfortable as it is fun.
There is a cost for all this talent, though. A number of price hikes this year mean the Ford is the most expensive car..."
Did you hear that, America? The Fiesta is the most expensive compact in Europe, even w/ worse sound insulation than the VW Polo! LOL
Which models have you driven? VW lost steering feel since the late '90's. I ended up trading my '05 Focus ST for an '07 Focus ST instead of the '07 MkV Rabbit/Jetta due to VW's feel-free electric steering. Even the MkIV introduced in '99 lack steering feel at the cornering limit.
Nevertheless, I still love the way this mid-'90's Jetta steers -- the resistance builds up so naturally progressive as the cornering load increases it just feels GOOOOOD! My Focus ST's steering feels unnatural & too elastic by comparison.
MkVI has improved steering feel over MkV:
http://newsletter.evo.co.uk/c/161K9906Oxy4ApC7jmw
"Spot on – although it takes me a while to work my way up to that level. The new GTI is fearfully competent. Does that concern you? It should. True, the last Golf was not a raw, trembling ball of energy either, settling for being richly satisfying instead, but in the new one you really have to go looking for entertainment. Cruise around and the stunning damping composure means the car is always too much in control, too able. So you hurl it into a tight-ish third-gear corner. Aha now we’re talking. Now the steering is more alert, now you can feel what’s going on, now the front end sharpens up a treat. Now it’s a GTI.
It’s a neat trick, a sudden sense of layers pulled back, true character revealed, but it’s also frustrating knowing how hard you have to drive it to have fun."
While the new "Japanese Focus" ruins the steering feel further for this generation:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q4/2010_mazdaspeed_3_vs._2010_- volkswagen_gti-comparison_tests
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q4/2010_mazdaspeed_3_vs._2010_- volkswagen_gti-comparison_tests/2010_mazdaspeed_3_page_2
"...the new steering rack substitutes effort for feel."
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/6952ff8- da96308c97c849c9db557f719.pdf
STEERING FEEL: 5 points for GTI, 3 points for Mazdaspeed3 -- that's whopping 2 points apart!
My Focus ST still has less steering feel than my '90 Protege twin cam, '99 E36 BMW 328is & '84 manual-steering MkI Jetta. But it still has better steering overall than all of them! Here's why:
The Jetta's manual steering does not have quick ratio for agility, while still too heavy doing parallel parking.
The Protege's steering is sharp, quick & never heavy while brimming w/ feel all the time, but becomes too skittish & not relaxing enough to cruise in a straight line at fwy speeds.
The E36's steering is both slow & heavy that trying to steer it feels like navigating a 19th Century pirate ship. Replacing it w/ a quick-ratio rack from the std Z3 now makes it steer just as quick as the E46 3-series, which has a less feel than the E36. The E36's steering system is still gravity sensitive so it tends to steer by itself left & right all the time when the road is not perfectly smooth & leveled, & thus cruising on the fwy feels like taming wild horses all the time w/ both hands. It's a handful, but in a way it's kind of fun, too, but I wonder what the fuss is all about.
Below fwy speeds, my Focus's steering may seem kind of numb compare to my Protege's delicious unit. But once on the fwy, it's amazing how this quick/sharp unit can cruise in a straight line in such relaxing/confident manner while ready to attack curvy bends. It's the best of both worlds.
My E36 coupe also has Torsen (similar to Quaife) differential installed. The horribly short springs from its original sport suspension was replaced w/ longer springs from non-sport suspension along w/ calmer-motion Monroe shocks. But Mercedes seems to have longer springs still.
I noticed how the '99 newer-generation E46 sedan has a comfy calm-motion ride, while after 2001.5 the suspension has a quick-motion tuning for a less comfy/relaxing ride. & this is the non-sport suspension.
The current E90 is badly compromised w/ run-flat tires, while the steering feels too light at lower speeds.
The 2700+lbs Focus ST w/ 4-cyl may have a nose-bias weight distribution compare to the 3000+lbs RWD E36 w/ inline 6-cyl, but Focus's overall light weight makes up for overall agility & tossability. FYI, the BMW 1-series 6-cyl coupe & today's Mazdaspeed3, which is derived from the upcoming Focus III, all weight about 3200lbs.
My RWD E36 feels like a rich man's Miata -- quieter, smoother riding & more powerful, but does require a higher velocity in order to drift the back end on every turn. & this fun feature is the ONLY reason I need to own a RWD car!
Compare to my Bimmer, my Focus ST feels like a more competent car & requires less effort from the driver to deliver the same results on curves & straight roads.
The '05 Focus ST's SVT shocks provide a ride motion so abrupt that I'm glad I traded it in for an '07 Focus ST w/ softer springs/shocks. But I might soften it further by replacing w/ Gabriel shocks later. & that'll leave my front springs about the only item stiffer than the Focus SES. & this is important b/c the Focus front springs are not very long to begin with, but probably pretty comparable to the lowered factory sport suspension from the more current BMW 3-series & Mercedes C-class. So don't expect any Focus to ride as smooth as BMW 3-series sedan or Mercedes C-class sedan w/ non-sport suspension, especially over deeper bumps.