Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

1246727

Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I like the size of the Element. Just thought they could have done a better job on the looks. Very practical vehicle. Except for the doors. Why Honda used that layout is beyond me. Toyota did the same and ruined the FJ Cruiser. Just not enough thought went into the design. I hope VW does more research and gets it right from the start. The Soul seems to be doing very well in the segment. I wanted to like it. Back seats very cramped. The original xB was roomier and my choice. Not sure why Toyota dumped a winner for that ugly xB they now cannot unload on the buyers. Will Honda continue with the Element? A little cleaner lines and I may give it another look.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Honda announced a few months ago that this is going to be the last year for the Element. The load capacity was a bit on the light side but dog lovers sure loved the vehicle.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Just not enough demand. People didn't like the rear entry or the four passenger capacity.

    Sales never really took off.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I can't understand the four passenger capacity, in a vehicle that's wide enough for three in the back seat. Why not give the owners the capability to carry an extra person, on those occasions when it would be convenient to do so?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Don't ask me. I didn't design them and at this point, it's too late.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Volkswagen Group more than tripled its first-quarter profit from a year earlier, as the German automaker delivered a record number of vehicles for the first quarter on surging China demand and higher sales through its Audi division. Volkswagen also widened its production margins.

    In the U.S., VW deliveries rose 16 percent from a year earlier to about 93,000 units. The company's U.S. market share actually slipped a tad to 3.0 percent from 3.1 percent a year earlier, as other car companies like Ford and General Motors also showed major American sales gains during the quarter."

    VW Triples Profits on China, Audi Demand (AutoObserver)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They won't be shipped until the second half of this year.

    "Chattanooga Mayor Ron Littlefield, who helped recruit the automaker, said the success of vehicles built at other assembly plants that have opened in the South shows there is no reason to doubt that Volkswagen's Passat will be a winner.

    "We went through all the jokes when Mercedes started their plant" decades ago in Alabama, Littlefield said. "All the jokes about whether Southerners can build cars. We can and not just NASCARs and hot rods."

    VW ready to start rolling new Passat off TN line (Yahoo)
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    and if this is VW's future... yikes! They cheapended this car dramatically. Drives terrible. They need to get back to the drawing board on the Jetta and quick.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Did you test drive the new Passat or Jetta? If the new Passat is going to sell for $20k I would expect it to handle more like the junk from Toyota or Honda. After 2 weeks with an Accord I can tell you it ain't worth a hoot on handling or noise. Americans have proven so many times they are not interested in good handling. They want cheap cars to get them back and forth to work.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Chattanooga is building the 2012 version, which is different from the 2010 one that's out there now. With a $20k sticker price though, the cheapness will likely be even more evident.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    I would agree with that statement, however, having a mkv Jetta, I am also dissapointed with the decontenting, or cheapness of the new model. In the end its all about sales numbers, low price=better chance for a sale.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe you can tell me. Are the Jetta and Sportswagen TDI on the same platform and both built in Mexico? The Sportswagen in the UK is called the Golf Estate. Same exact vehicle as far as I can tell.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    AFAIK the jetta left the golf/jetta/jetta wagon lineup, leaving the golf and jetta wagon as basically the same vehicles with obviously differences like a longer wheelbase and other differences.

    I think all including new jetta are made in mexico.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A reporter is interested in speaking with customers who recently purchased a new Volkswagen Jetta.

    If you are interested in commenting on your experience, please reply to pr@edmunds.com no later than 5pm Pacific this Wednesday, May 11th and include your name and email address.
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    The older Jetta wagons were indeed based on a lengthened Golf platform and were not actually 'Jettas' - but that is not accurate either, the old Jettas and Golfs were both built on the same platform.

    The difference maker in 2005 and older Jetta Wagons was country of origin. Golfs and Jetta wagons were both built on the same assembly line in Germany. The Jetta Sedans were built in Mexico. Now, all the Jettas, wagon or sedan, are built in the Mexico plants (since 2006...note, no wagons were built from 06-08).

    Another thing worth knowing is that the Mexico plant has benefited from expensive upgrades in automation and assembly line efficiencies. VW wants lower costs/prices and the easiest way to do that was to reduce the amount of time it takes to complete the build of a new Jetta - the new rear suspension was one of those extreme cost-savings decisions that was made.

    I am also optimistic that the new automation (upgrades initiated in 07/08) mean better build quality and reliability/safety. I just purchased a 2008 Jetta GLI in hopes that it will benefit from those improvements and be more reliable than street wisdom would have you believe.

    All that said, the current Golf is still German built (as is the current Passat for now) and if that CoOrigin matters to you, you can make a choice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The current Jetta Sportswagen is identical to the Golf Estate sold in the EU. Are they all made in Mexico? Or just the Sportswagens sold in the USA?
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    I have a 2008 Jetta Wolfsburg, same 2.0T you have but not as rough suspension, (drove a GLI, could feel every ant you ran over lol) love the car.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    After the grousing (it's decontented!), it actually sounds pretty good. Bigger, simpler - "It's like a Crown Vic that's been to finishing school."

    2012 Volkswagen Passat First Drive (Inside Line)

    Another shot in front of the Hunter Museum in Chattanooga:

    image
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2011
    VW Evaluates U.S. Audi Plant (WSJ)

    Shot of the TN plant:

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is some plant. I would bet the people of TN are happy to get the jobs. Wanna bet they don't allow the UAW in to muck it up for them.

    If they can build a CUV with a 4 cylinder diesel to compete against the Ford Escape hybrid, they should have a winner.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    VW and the Koreans have gotten much cheaper labor in their US transplants than Honda or Toyota. Don't know why the people down there accepted such a cut rate wage (the pay package is dramatically cheaper, something like $27/hr labor & fringe vs. $50), must be hurting for jobs. But this is going to give VW the same potentially large cost advantage as Hyundai and Kia. I suppose there may be a bit of a risk that as the economy improves those cheap waged workers are going to get upset, but that's probably at least a few years down the road. My big concern about buying a VW is both reliability and the VW dealers, so I don't see myself being a customer in the immediate future.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2011
    My first real job in Chattanooga back in '74 came in around $8,900 a year iirc. Forgot what I got per hour selling cameras over Christmas at Service Mechandise, but I do remember liking the $5 spiffs for selling the cheap cameras instead of Kodaks.

    If a worker quits, I'm sure plenty of others will apply for her job.

    Older article, but it says $12.66 will be the starting VW wage vs $14 that new UAW workers get under their 2007 contract.

    Chattanooga: VW plant could push up local wages (timesfreepress.com)

    Newer article says the numbers now are $12.50 for VW and $14.50 for new UAW hires.

    GM and Ford still have double the wage/benefit costs because of legacy workers though.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2011
    It's like a Crown Vic that's been to finishing school."

    And that's really what you're looking for in your new Passat. ;-)

    The decontent-supersize-and-price-cut plan isn't going to work for VW in helping it achieve its goal of pumping up American market share. It's just going to make it clear why other makes are so much better deals, because VW still can't undercut the prices of the others and now they don't even have as nice a car either. And it will certainly need more repairs than all the others.

    Why even try to dominate market share anyway? That goal was the worst idea GM and Toyota ever had.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2011
    Why even try to dominate market share anyway?

    Good question - guess they wanted a challenge.

    “Normally you don’t have this kind of idea just waking up in the morning,” Christian Klingler, VW’s global sales and marketing chief and a board member, told journalists assembled in Manhattan last Monday. “Three or four years ago, we created a 10- or 11-year strategy. Since we announced the plan, a lot of people have said, ‘Go for it, [but] we don’t believe you at all.’ I’m sorry – we’re going for it!”

    VW Becoming Number One Will Require Flying Leap (AutoObserver)

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My understanding is VW is out to be the largest in the World. The US is already a 2nd rate market behind China. Last I checked VW is number one in the EU, Brazil and China. Only a few hundred thousand vehicles behind Toyota World wide last year. I don't see them actually trying to be number one in the USA.

    Even a million in 7 years without any PU trucks will be a big feat. I don't think they need to sell that many in the US to be Number ONE in the World.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    I used to live on that ridge back there (Missionary Ridge). For 3 months back in the 70s anyway. The triangular roofed buildings are the Tennessee Aquarium on the river.

    image

    Volkswagen sales in May blew the doors off:

    If VW Can Meet U.S. Goals, It May Be 'Game Over' (AutoObserver)
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Sure, they're up, but I still put the chance of them meeting their 800k by 2018 goal as near-zero.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A lot can happen in 7 years. VW is positioning itself to take advantage of higher fuel costs. It sells the only real competition for the hybrids. Sales are up in a month that many of the other auto makers have faltered. I think their 20% gain YTD is one of the highest. If they can overcome the reliability stigma attached to them, they may pull it off.

    If I sell my Seqouia, the Touareg TDI is at the top of my list to replace it. The new Touareg TDI is selling very well for an over $50k SUV. Up 107% over a year ago. I believe the new styling (which I like) and the higher mileage rating are making them a good choice. No domestic or Japanese company has anything that competes on all levels. And Touareg TDI's won 1-2-3 at Dakar this year. Only one close was BMW. And they are now the top luxury brand in the country.

    I am rooting for them and their new US plant in TN.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I think it's a real stretch too. Not to mention that VW dealers don't have the greatest reputation, so even if the cars are enticing, some of us are a bit leery about the service after the sale (based on my sister's '00 New Beetle ownership experience in my case).

    Chattanooga's a big TVA city; maybe that'll help keep the Lord Lucas electrical gremlins at bay.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The 2012 Volkswagen Beetle will start at $19,765, including a $770 destination charge, when the car goes on sale in October."

    2012 Volkswagen Beetle Priced (Inside Line)

    image
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Too bad the diesel will cost so much, and there's no hybrid.....the guzzler 2.5 is the base engine - can you say 22 mpg? :sick:

    OTOH, it's maybe a PLUS that they didn't make the age-old 115 hp 2.0 the base engine for the Beetle, given that it also has lousy fuel economy and no power to boot.....I can't BELIEVE they made that the base engine for the new cheapo Jetta.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Beetle gasser will sell to girls that think they are cute. They should still out handle anything in the class offered by the Japanese or Koreans. And the Geek squad buys them by the boat loads. I would not mind having one in Gecko green with a diesel. I would not waste money on the gasser.

    I think the push will be the Passat diesel built in TN. I still think about the Sportswagen TDI from time to time. Just too small and too low to the ground for long trips.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    If you had a diesel, why would you need a hybrid? Hopefully they wont give us McAudis like they are with the VWs, Beetle may be the exception, bigger, cheaper isnt why I bought my VW.

    If I need a new car I'll be looking at Audi.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think lower prices and a US plant will help VW gain sales, but I also think they have a long way to go in North America because of a rather small and weak dealer system. Of course, maybe they intend to become #1 through Asia, India, etc.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    VW has the most sales in China, Brazil and the EU. Not sure about India. So they are looking more at emerging markets to take over number one in the World. Japan and US are actually diminishing markets. Though I agree the new plant and the Passat TDI should give them a boost.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    US is pretty flat, which is what makes their goal by 2018 (800k, up from about 300k, I think) so amazing/bizarre. I just can't see them taking that much market share away from the others, especially when Hyundai/Kia is coming on so strong.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    800K annual sales in the U.S. is just an outright laugh. I will eat my hat if they increase their sales by even 20%, let alone the 166% that figure would represent.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well they are well on their way to better than 22% this year so far. If they keep up the current trend they should sell about 300K vehicles here this year. A lot will depend on how well the Passat TDI is accepted this Fall. VW gained 35% in June over last June without the Beetle or Passat available. They will have their full lineup at the dealers this fall. I expect the new Beetle and Passat to do well. Look for at least 30% gain for the whole year over last year.

    http://media.vw.com/news
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited July 2011
    If VW can keep up their current trend of 20% or more per year, they will hit 800k by 2016. They will be well over a million by their target date of 2018. If they continue to offer fuel efficient vehicles that beat the competition they have a great chance of reaching that lofty goal. They did manage 20% last year over 2009. They sold 256,830 vehicles in 2010. At the current trend they should sell 314K this year. I would guess more with the new Passat and Beetle.

    http://media.vw.com/press_releases/volkswagen-of-america-closes-2010-with-best-o- verall-year-sales-since-2003
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yes, but every model they have is being renewed right now - OF COURSE sales are going to be up this year. I believe the growth target was for the year 2015, which will be precisely at the END of the model cycle for all the models just now being renewed: Beetle, Jetta, Passat, GTI. Doubt that Audi will pick up that much slack. Tiguan and Touareg? Isn't one of those about to enter a new model cycle too?

    The course VW is on right now will have everyone asking themselves the question in the next few years, "what exactly IS the value of going German?". It won't be the interiors any more, it never was the reliability, fuel economy (except for the high-priced diesels), or smog emissions. Chassis dynamics? We will have to see if the new models are any better in that department than their domestic and Asian competition, and whether slothful American drivers even care. High technology? Is there notably more of that in sub-$30K VWs than in their competition? I think not - you have to look to Audi for the high-tech in the VW Group, and even then the competition is stiff. You would have a hard time convincing me that Audis are significantly technologically advanced vs their competitors. And they aren't even RWD.

    Some will declare that VW can succeed in achieving its lofty sales goals on the basis of diesel availability alone, but they would never sell me on that one....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Another reason VW sales will spike this year and maybe next year is the problems from the quake/tsunami. You can bet Toyota/Honda/Nissan will pull out all the maketing stops when their spupplies are back up. I put the over/under on VW in 2018 at 500k. Higher, yes, but not 800k.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Some will declare that VW can succeed in achieving its lofty sales goals on the basis of diesel availability alone, but they would never sell me on that one...

    Thankfully for VW you are not the average car buyer. I think they will achieve their goal by all of the above. Dumbing down to the American buyer being the number one thing I see. VW tried it by selling superior German handling and engineering and they did not sell so well. So they will come down to the level of the competition from Japan, Korea and the USA.

    As far as VW/Audi diesels that is a huge part of their current success. I would assume they will play on that. VW TDI over 20% of vehicles sold. Audi A3 46% diesel. Audi monster SUV Q7 with 34% diesel.

    You like small fuel efficient cars. You should take the Golf TDI for a good long test drive. You will not be satisfied with a gasser again. And you will not find a gas non hybrid that can deliver 50 MPG. I am still waiting for ANY vehicle to break this record.

    Together, the Taylors own nearly 40 world records for fuel economy, and this month they added to their tally by breaking the mileage record for driving the 48 contiguous United States. Their mark: 67.9 miles per gallon, achieved over 19 days and some 9,500 miles in a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI.

    Together, the Taylors own nearly 40 world records for fuel economy, and this month they added to their tally by breaking the mileage record for driving the 48 contiguous United States. Their mark: 67.9 miles per gallon, achieved over 19 days and some 9,500 miles in a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2011
    VW is really going to have to lean on their dealers if they want to hit those numbers. Some VW dealers' reputations have improved but they've burned a lot of people who don't want to go back.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am wondering if it is VWUSA or the dealers that are the problem? Now is not the time to get stingy with warranty work. Their house of cards could come down just like Toyota and GM. Not quite as drastic as they don't have near as far to fall. My local dealer is Ford, Hyundai and VW. The VW sales people also sell Hyundai. It would be interesting to know which they make the most money on. I don't think they are cross shopped that much.

    It is unlikely someone interested in the Touareg would be considering a VeraCruz.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    As far as VW/Audi diesels that is a huge part of their current success. I would assume they will play on that. VW TDI over 20% of vehicles sold. Audi A3 46% diesel. Audi monster SUV Q7 with 34% diesel.


    And all of them combined are less than 80K vehicle sales per year, or 10% of the goal they hope to hit in four short years. And diesels are by far their hottest product! Nope, diesel helps a little and gives them something green to point to, but they will need a whole heck of a lot more than that to have any hope of getting near this crazy goal.

    You should take the Golf TDI for a good long test drive. You will not be satisfied with a gasser again.

    I have watched diesel in my county go from $0.40/gallon more than regular unleaded (in the winter) to $0.80/gallon more now. With unleaded at $3.80, that is a 21% premium in price for the fuel. While I might like the Golf TDI and while I might talk mysef into one despite the rumors of failing fuel pumps which VW will not cover under warranty, the math alone would never pencil out. At 50 mpg in the Golf, I wouldn't even be breaking even.

    While I can appreciate the benefits of diesel for some folks, I will never be one of those folks. And either way, VW cannot put all its eggs in that basket. It needs four or five more really attractive baskets. I don't see any others yet though.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I cannot imagine VW being that stupid. They had a horrible experience with the UAW years ago. They did not build in Michigan because of the UAW and it not being a Right to Work state. With the UAW they would not have much chance of reaching their goal of 800k VWs by 2018. I seriously doubt the UAW could win an election in TN. Not known for strong union sentiment.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I cannot imagine VW being that stupid.

    It's not like VW has a choice to say no to a union. All they can do is treat their employees well so that they aren't interested in a union - just like what Toyota, Honda, MB, BMW, Hyundai and Nissan have done. None of those transplants are unionized.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Surprisingly, the Mazda 6 is was until this year and Mitsubushi has a few as well...

    Cars, Trucks & Vans by Union Members
    in the United States (UAW) and Canada (CAW)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are exactly right. Treat employees decent and the chances of a union coming in is small. There will always be those that infiltrate and stir up dissension. That is why VW would be wise to cull out any applicant with UAW in his background. I think VW had something like 1000 applicants for every job opening. They can be real picky and should be. If they want a team that will build cars to beat the tough competition, better hire the best they can find. And treat them well.
Sign In or Register to comment.