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I have owned several front wheel drive (the last 10 cars) and MANY more RWD cars. My favorite car so far, was my 1972 Cutless Supreme, with 4 studded snow tires! That car would and did go anywhere, and I felt very comfortable driving it at all times.
Now I should point out, I was a bunch younger, and likely to be a bunch crazier, and shiit bothered me a whole hell of a lot less then it does now. I will say, all of the Pontiac Catalina's were great in the snow, but again, I likely had studded tires on them, and I was younger. Those cars were nice and heavy, which I'm sure had a lot to do with how well they went in the snow (if I remember correctly:) )
Skip
A dealer may tell you that leather is not available in the XL, but it is out there as a "Distributor Installed Option". My dealer got one with my color choice in two days.
The XL has enough bells and whistles to make a very nice car with the addition of leather. I am very pleased with mine, and the price was right.
A bit of a BROAD BRUSH, that.
What I believe is that ANY vehicle that has the PRIMARY drive on the same wheels as those providing "stearage", directional control, is PATENTLY UNSAFE on adverse, slippery, low traction, roadbed conditions.
That MIGHT include AWD vehicles if they would more properly be referred to as F/AWD, as many vhicles with "sideways" front mounted engines should be. The sole exception being the SH-AWD system.
4WD....If that means having a LOCKED center diff'l as it offen does then yes, those can also turn quickly hazardous, unsafe, on an adverse roadbed. You may note that most modern day 4WD & 4X4 vehicles automatically DISABLE all ABS/VSC/TC/EBD/BA functionality when the center diff' is locked. These features have functionality and capabilities FAR beyond those of us mere mortals and therefore there can be NO human substitute insofar as safety is concerned..
When the rotation rate of the front and rear wheels are locked together in this manner those features cannot be made functional and might even operate to your detriment if enabled.
And ANY 4WD or 4X4 owner/driver that doesn't know/understand that the center diff'l shouldn't be left locked once "underway" simply has (unknowingly..??) a death wish.
Step up to the XLS. Factory leather is standard and you will have all the whistles & bells you need for very little additional money.
Another thought. 09 is aparently the last year for this body style, and info on the 2010 Avalons should be appearing shortly. Might be smart to wait a couple of months & see what's new.
FWD vehicles handled better in crosswinds. The RWD seems to be more subject to being buffeted around more.
Maybe FWD has more weight over the front steering tires and that helps. Just my own personal experience after going from an Acura RL to a Lexus LS.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The point concerning the drive wheels also doing the steering - and the problems that creates such with Torque steer (especially with these newer high HP engines) , engine braking, and the natural weight imbalance that usually comes with FWD vehicles are., however, valid points. BUT, the primary advantage that he seemingly wants to dismiss, is exactly what you mention - traction on those slippery nasty roads.
Many years ago, some of the better cars that would successfully allow you to navigate on really bad roads were the VW bug and some Saabs - RWD and rear engined cars - WHY - better traction from the weight over the drive wheels. You could get places that the front engined RWD cars at the time couldn't dream of, which then begs the real issue - what is safer, that RWD sedan you mention that gets you stuck (or even worse refuses to move (because of the traction/stability control systems )), or that FWD sedan that at least gets you where you want to go?
Given the relative abilities of today's driver (a real problem) - and their lack of experience with any kind of RWD cars, it is clear that FWD cars are definitely the better choice, especially in parts of the country that do see snow covered/icy roads frequently. Unless, of course, we all want to start putting sandbags in our trunks again For my part, I 'd be willing to bet - that any driver in an Avalon, will be able to get to more places more safely than he/she could in, let's say, a Chrysler 300
Speaking of those early VW's that were a favorite of my USAF buddies in the late fifties in NH, look how long it has taken Porsche to "tame" their rear engine rear wheel drive 911's. Good aspect: rear engine RWD. Bad, BAD aspect: rear engine RWD....!!
Once the rear of that VW started to inadvertently (intentional being quite another matter) "come about" there was NO recovery possible, as was the case for the 911.
Yes, the automotive industry would like nothing more than for the public to continue drinking their Cool Aid, FWD Cool Aid.
Oh, modern day TC, Traction Control, implementations on a RWD or R/AWD vehicle is a LOT more beniegn, less driver intrusive, than ANY modern day FWD or F/AWD implementation. Wheelspin/slip due to too much engine torque at the rear driven wheels is a lot less life threatening than the "same" event on the front "driven" wheels.
But NO driver with a decent level of experience or training would/should have need, continuous need, of ANY TC system other than as an early warning of adverse roadbed conditions.
My concern of/about FWD & F/AWD is primarily about the greater potential for loss of directional control due to engine torque, leading or lagging.
You cannot buy an XLS with heated seats for less than 35K, probably 36-37K when you add some other things that would be "nice to have", but not really necessary for nice comfortable transportation.
In this economy, I would rather have the money in hand!
My main point was to be that that an XL is still a nice car for around 15% less than an XLS, if you are watching dollars.
That happened here in NYC.
The car was fully paid for by the time I drove it out of the showroom on that beautiful September day.
Amaury
'08 Limited
At a Chevy/Hyundai dealership I had a chat with the sales manager and he said a good offer would be $800 below invoice. What do you guys think, is the Genesis the way to go or perhaps the Lexus ES350?
I thought about one before I purchased the Avalon, but at $3500.00 more then the Avalon, I couldn't see it. Of course it was the second phone call that had the price lowered to within the reach of the Avalon.
I'm glad (so far) that I didn't purchase it mostly because they just got a Very nice, low mileage unit in trade, and they are selling it for $16990.00!
Now I point this out because right now, they DO NOT have a great following, or a very good re-sale value. That's a $20,000.00 PLUS drop in 1 model year (and only 11,300 miles).
Now likely to be something about the car, but I don't see anything.
Now checking online for used Avalon's brings up several come up, and ALL at nice high prices. Which makes me happy, that right now, they have a great re-sale value. For that reason alone, I would purchase a current model Avalon, and worried about the fact they MAY drop it from the lineup in a few years.
I sold my 2007 Camry for $1,140.00 less then I paid for it, after 13 months and 38,000 miles
My wife has been offered $11,400.00 as a trade for her 2003 Toyota Camry with 47,000 original miles on it.
My point Toyotas hold their value, and for that reason alone I would purchase another one.
Hyundai Genesis gets for good reviews as the car goes, but most do wonder about the re-sale value.
I will say, when you go to Toyota.com and compare the Genesis to the Avalon, there sure isn't as much difference as we would have though. Size, dimensions, space, room and so on, are very compatible. Sure makes you wonder which market Hyundai is after.
I'm guessing it will be a nice car, but don't worry about the fact the Avalon may be gone as such in 2010, it will be replaced, not gone.
Skip
I don't know about being less expensive (40K loaded V6) however it is a nice ride. I drove one it feels a lot different than the Avalon being RWD and having a stiffer suspension. My '06 Avalon is due to come off lease soon and I am in a similar dilemma.... if the Avalon is being redesigned for 2010 I will extend my lease or just drive my pickup until the new model comes out. If its being discontinued the ES350 or the Genesis are my top two picks. The ES is a great car too but smaller than the Av and the Genesis the verdict is still out on.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I was driving up a snow packed hill with traction control engaged and this was my first experience with this car in the snow. No wheel spin but the car just got slower and slower and finally stopped...then started rolling backwards. Apparently, at that point the computer killed the engine so I am free wheeling backwards down the hill with very little control.
Every time I would try to slow down by braking I would begin toe slew sideways (very narrow seldom used road so there was no traffic, thank goodness). I went backwards down the hill for about 100 yards. It was not a really steep hill but it was steep enough.
I finally got stopped, then turned around in a driveway with no damage but...if this had been in traffic it could have been very bad. I have never had this happen to me before in any car and I have driven in snow, ice, and hills for more years that I like to remember.
This is a little cut thru road that saves a couple of miles and the outside temp was in the 40's. Other roadways were completely clear but this area was in deep shade so old ice had not melted. If I had had any idea the road was icy I would not have been on it.
Anyone else ever experience anything like this? Where did I go wrong other than being dumb enough to be on this particular road? Does anyone know why the engine stalled and is this normal? Thanks for any comments.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My '06 Avalon's is programmed a little better (IMO) allowing a little wheelspin. However, it can't be deactivated with a switch like earlier models. What I would do is find the crazy set of commands to disable it (unless your LS has a switch) The Avalon forums have the procedure , however I am not sure if it would apply to your LS.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Thanks for the tip. I thought it had something to do with t/c but was not sure. I would not normally drive this car in bad weather but I got surprised !
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Roland
I just purchased a 08 Touring Avalon with sun roof and a few other features, and as of yet, I haven't had any issue with the sun roof rattling. I'm located in Maine, so I KNOW it gets cold enough:) I'll be watching this carefully.
I notice that kind of rattling in the dash a little bit, in both this Avalon and my 07 Camry, when it was COLD (single digits or colder). It too disappears after the cabin has warmed up some. This was in the Camry, annoying - in the Avalon a bit of a disappointment. But hell, I rattle on those cold morning to, until I've warmed up a bit:)
Skip
The braking of the rear wheels and engine dethrottling was virtually INSTANT, and seemingly took HOURS to unwind and return control of the throttle to the driver. After a few times with inadvertent activation I tried to religiously remember to turn it off each time I started the LS.
But the biggest mistake was actually yours, not having tire chains installed on the rear when clearly that was what was required.
The law of physics, you know.
"at that point the computer killed the engine.."
The TC in the early LS will so severely dethrottle the engine as to make you think it's stalled, and it doesn't help that it takes so l..o...n....g to "unwind" the dethrotting effect.
On a RWD dethrottling is often delayed a few hundred milliseconds after wheelspin/slip is detected and braking is applied.
Chains? Well I guess a snow cat would have been even better. If you had read my post, or comprehended it, you would know that 99.9% of the roads were clear and it was 40+ degrees. Absolutely no indication that chains would be required.
The isolated icy stretch was only about a quarter mile long that I came upon quite unexpectedly. Even if I had chains with me, which I didn't, it would have been impossibly dangerous to stop on this very narrow road and attempt to install them.
If there had been any indication of bad roads I would simply have taken my SUV. Unfortunately there are some circumstances that you just can't foresee.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Roland
Skip
I've never had TC (I'm originally from South Africa) and heck, I haven't even had ABS before coming to the US.
We had to learn all the manual ways of pumping the brake and so forth (which I truly believe makes one a better driver than throwing them in something that "thinks" for you at 16)
Anyhow, the 07 XLS I got my grubby paws on has no TC, I've had a few wheel spins on icy roads and the car has had that situation where it wants to pull to the side as traction is lost on one wheel, but so far I've found the car to be very forgiving of getting into situations and pretty easy to get the Avalon out of them all.
So far so good my side *knock wood* :P
I've never had much experience in RWD though other than a Dodge Charger rental (which I loved the feel of, thing felt like a 10 ton tank sunk in the ground, felt VERY stable), I don't know that I personally would change to RWD just due to my inexperience with it in a climate that gets snow/ice.
Cheers guys
Sheldon
I too have a 07 XLS and have also noticed a rattle at time that from your description sounds very much like mine, I have never suspected the sun roof though.
Next time I hear this I'll put pressure on it and see if it also is coming from there.
Thanks again
Sheldon
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Sept/Oct of this year. No details on the car, yet; but he said his onfo is straight from Toyota USA.
would buy again
Turns out that the head salesguy at the dealer had just talked with the TMS Chicago Region rep, who had told him about three new Toyotas (2010/11 4Runner, Avalon/Avalon Hybrid, and Sienna/Sienna Hybrid). All will be launching in the fall (they were originally going to launch on the auto show circuit, but cost cuts in the auto biz, including at Toyota, put a halt to the plans).
Anyway, here's a few details of the 2010/11 Avalon:
-One trim level, like Venza, with choice of packages. Toyota wants to make Avalon more affordable to appeal to younger buyers.
-Choice of 3.5L V6 for gas model or new Hybrid model with 3.5L V6 + 3G Hybrid Synergy Drive. (Hybrid should get lower-mid 30s MPG combined city/highway.)
-Many Lexus-like features, like Lane Keep Assist and Intelligent Park Assist, along with a roomier interior.
-Production starts at TMMK in the fall.
http://toyota.jp/crownmajesta/exterior/garally/index.html
In any case, looking forward to seeing any spy pics of a new Avalon. Anybody seen anything around Toyota Sales in Torrance, CA? Western Ave. and 190th St.
Boy that sure looks like a great car. Here's hoping.
Skip
- http://www.netcarshow.com/toyota/2007-crown_hybrid_concept/
- http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=2007%20Toyota%20Crown&- oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
- http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=2010%20toyotas&oe=UTF-- 8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
Skip
Any significant deviation from its Camry-derived platform and running gear would put the Avalon in an unsustainable market position.
Of course I could be wrong if the 2005 Avalon got the new body before the Camry?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
US Calendar Year Sales
2000 --104,078
2001 --83,005
2002 --69,029
2003 --50,911
2004 --36,460
2005 --95,318
2006 --88,938
2007 --72,945
2008 --42,790
It's not just the aging of a model now, it's also the economy, other models and simply do folks need a new car?
Many of us, currently have a new enough model, and those that don't, may not have a job, or don't know how much longer they will have a job.
Folks are getting much harder to talk into a new car, when they one they have is just fine, or in MANY cases, they are up-side down on the value vs the trade-in or even selling out right price.
I know I paid just months earlier, a price for my Avalon, that at the time was very good ($6.000.00 under invoice), yet now as a trade-in it's worth even less then that by several thousand dollars ; this is to much, for even me to deal with.
I say "Even me" because - if I want something I just buy it:)
Now I'll wait and see what the next model has to offer, and if I WANT it, I'll deal with the money issues and be ok with it. Heck I'm looking into trading for a 2 or 3 year old Lexus LS 430, and we'll be taking a beating - of sorts.
The bottom line here is this.
The automotive industry wants folks to pay a new car, but folks just can't keep doing this every other year, and if folks keep their cars for 5 or more years, which is what they are saying folks are doing, then the industry will have to look at making cars for 2 years, then taking a year off or something weird like that.
But I digress :)
In '05 the platform was heavily revised ("all new" according to Yota) for the then new Avalon. The '07 Camry then got the shortened version and the 2GR motor from the Avalon. So as of right now the Camry and Avalon (and Highlander, ES, RX, RAV, Sienna) are all on the same basic platform and engines.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
They confirmed that a 2010 Avalon will be produced, although they would not share when production of the 2010 vehicle would begin. I inferred from their comments that no significant design changes would be introduced for the 2010 model year.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky Inc. did indicate that the 2009 Avalon continues to be produced. They also confirmed that it is still possible to factory order a 2009 Avalon should you care to do so.