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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think we get the picture. You feel as strongly about the attributes of the Prius as I do about the attributes of the Golf TDI. We obviously have different ideas of what is important in a vehicle. You seem to like sitting in stop and go traffic listening to music. The Prius is a decent vehicle for sitting still in traffic. Though less than comfortable seats. My preference is a drive on Hwy 79 and making the loop either out 78 to the desert or taking the Sunrise Hwy up through the mountains. The VW TDIs in their many forms are much more pleasurable driving experience in that setting. For those that are relegated to flat land urban driving. The Prius is probably fine. Just not my cup of tea.

    In October of 2007 when we bought the Sequoia the dealer had plenty of Prius and Highlander hybrids for sale. All below invoice. If I had any desire to own a Prius I could have bought two for the cash I spent on the Sequoia.

    The bugs in the new DSG are being fixed. The DSG is the most efficient automatic transmission design currently available. At times I would prefer a manual. My wife likes automatic. So it is both. Something the Prius has never offered.

    If I can get a decent deal on a Golf TDI when they arrive I will think of you stuck in traffic with your Prius as I am motoring in the back country of San Diego. Of course I will have about 150 more miles of range in my TDI before I have to refuel. I still remember those 700 mile jaunts before refueling in my Passat TDI. Not smelling that nasty carcinogenic unleaded is worth the price of a diesel vehicle.

    PS
    Honda was going to bring a diesel over but shelved that.

    Sadly the Honda diesel failed to meet the ultra strict CARB rules for diesel emissions. So Honda has no midsized vehicle to compete with the Camry and Fusion Hybrids.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've had my Prius for nearly six years and 72000 miles. Bullet proof!!!

    I think your memory is selective. I recall 100s of people with Prius stalling at high speed in traffic. Some causing injury accidents. The DSG has also had problems in its first go around. I am looking at the NHTSA ODI complaints and do not find a single accident caused by the transmission failing. I am surprised you were not one of the hundreds of complaints filed with the ODI on the 2004 Prius. It was more like riddled with bullets, not bullet proof. The complaints on the Prius go from Airbags to Vehicle speed control and visibility. Look for yourself. The Prius has benefited from Media protection. And anyone complaining here on Edmund's is run off the forum by zealots.

    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I recall 100s of people with Prius stalling at high speed in traffic. Some causing injury accidents.

    There were only 33 reports filed with NHTSA and none resulted in an accident.
    .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have responded to the zealots so many times it is getting old. Just look up the 2004 Prius on the ODI website. There are 93 failures under the category electrical system alone with several accidents caused by Prius malfunctions. There are 47 categories of failures of just about every component on the Prius. You know it is a fact as you go over the problems with a fine tooth comb and try intimidating those that report problems they have. Yes you would qualify as a Hybrid Zealot.

    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm

    So far I cannot find a single failure for the 2010 Golf TDI. Pretty good for a first year offering. :shades:
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Don't try changing the topic. You specifically brought up "stalling" and claimed "100s".

    Also, that link returns an error.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Have you heard that there is an issue with the transmissions in some of the newer models? Yes... it goes into neutral and can cause serious injury or death. That's why I stay away from a company that can build a nice interior but their electronics are crap.
    Toyota Dangerous Transmission

    Stay away from dangerous Toyota is good advice for jpeters1970.

    Knowledgeable auto enthusiasts like the staff at Edmunds appreciate Volkswagen TDI. For people who believe fun is bad for your health there is the Toyota Prius, the cure for automotive fun.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Hope you enjoy paying the premium price on diesel fuel in the winter.

    Don't enjoy your spiteful comments.

    Diesel, Hybrid, Propane, Natural Gas, Electric, Hydrogen are welcome energy alternatives for the future.

    It is a sad reality that some hybrid owners believe in eliminating choice. Kind of like CARB. They choose hate.

    Change

    Honda is doing something to change hate into good.

    Here is a song for jpeters1970 in the key of grrr
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    People want to buy reliable cars and VW just does not deliver and is at the bottom of the basement

    Does your statement have any meaning in terms of real world data? Quantify the difference in reliability between a VW TDI and a Toyota Prius.

    You have not posted one relevant quantifiable fact about reliability of Prius or TDI.

    JD Power data has shown that the difference between Toyota reliability and VW is 1.3 problems per vehicle.

    Consumer Reports has listed both Jetta and Golf TDI as recommended and same with Prius. CR has listed reliability of Jetta TDI as better than average.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    jpeters1970 -I have had a few VWs (late 90's). Seats were HORRIBLE. I'll take my Prius any day over a VW. Interesting how the vocal few here don't have problems like so many other VW owners.

    quote Edmunds from Inside Line long term test of Jetta TDI -The Jetta does have a near flawless seating position. But I'm not surprised, VW has always done this right. For decades the company has made it a priority.

    For as long as I can remember nearly every VW (including our long-term Jetta TDI) has had a tilt and telescopic steering wheel, a height adjustable driver's seat and infinite seatback rack adjustment. VW also puts the pedals and shifter where they should be. This is one of the reasons I now own my second Passat wagon.

    If you can't get comfortble in our Jetta, it's your body, not the car. It's all so right, it makes me shake my head and wonder why more car companies don't just copy it all.
    Scott Oldham, Inside Line Editor in Chief

    Great Seating VW TDI
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I did not change the subject Toyota Prius Stalling is the issue. They are not all listed under one complaint topic or one MY.

    CNN reported, "A software problem is causing some Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid cars to stall or shut down while driving at highway speeds." A Toyota press release states:

    Approximately 75,000 2004 and 2005 model year Prius vehicles may be affected by this condition.

    You are the one wanting to change the subject. No one is saying any car is perfect. The previous poster made a bold claim concerning VW DSG and bullet proof Prius. Nothing was substantiated. Just an opinion. Same as you have done. I probably test drove the first Prius before any of the current crop of hybrid zealots. I know it was one of the first two in San Diego. I thought it was kind of cool until I really looked into it. After a couple electric only starts from a stop light and the newness wears off and the reality sets in. It is simply NOT a drivers car. It is mediocre transportation.
  • carbuffdecarbuffde Member Posts: 1
    I have a history with both vehicles. Owned a 99 VW Bug Diesel. Loved it until electrical gremlins started popping up (sold it in two years due to the problems). Got great fuel mileage (high 30's mixed). Now I currently have a 2005 Prius and and a 2007 Jetta TDI. Jetta was for me and Prius for the wife. The Jetta has been relatively trouble free but this will be the last VW for me (dealer service stinks). We switched and now I drive the Prius and the wife drives the Jetta. My commute is further and since I get better mileage we decided to switch. Both are decent vehicles but my Prius has been trouble free. Never had such a more reliable vehicle.

    I see passion for both of these cars and I kinda have to laugh at the juvenile banter back and forth between these forum participants. Its only a damn car. Get over it!!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Some causing injury accidents.

    Of the extremely small number that actually stalled, where's there a report to support that?

    Remember, when the engine cuts out, you still have a 50kW electric motor providing propulsion and a battery-pack powering everything. So, it's not like driving cannot continue.
    .
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Have to agree with you on that John. Bringing up old history from six years ago show how desperate these diesel addicts are. Actually, diesel would be nice if they would design one to work like a hybrid. I just don't know how the start/stop cycle would work as diesels work quite differently than the Atkinson cycle gassers. So now I'll just glide along in my reliable space pod, listen to XM and enjoy the sound of silence at the stop lights during my commute. Much better than shake, rattle and ....um never mind,,, y'all get what I'm talking about. NVH.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I see passion for both of these cars and I kinda have to laugh at the juvenile banter back and forth between these forum participants. Its only a damn car. Get over it!!

    Welcome to the forum. Your insight is most appreciated. Poor dealer service is a big turn-off. Here in San Diego we have 11 Toyota dealers. I have only dealt with two on the service level. Both were incompetent. By contrast Drew Ford/VW has been great to deal with for both Ford and VW since the first car I bought from them in 1986. I have had them service both Ford and the VW Passat TDI and they proved most competent and reasonably priced. So my experience with Toyota and Lexus dealers has been just the opposite of yours.

    The diesel vs hybrid rivalry has existed here at Edmund's since about 2003. My question to you is what type driving do you do? Are there any mountains in your commutes? Or winding roads with a lot of up and down hills? If you take a Sunday drive out in the country, which would be your choice to drive?

    If I based my vehicle purchases on the dealers here in San Diego, I would never buy another Toyota or Lexus.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just so those here know what the World thinks of the New Golf. It was awarded THE car of the year award. You can look through the archives. I don't think you will see the Prius even in the running. It requires a superior vehicle to be chosen for this prestigious award.

    http://www.wcoty.com/media/?release=45&year=2009
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe for the 2010 award, the 2010 Prius will be in the running. This was the 2009 World COTY award. The Prius that was eligible for that award was a six-year-old model. I'm not surprised it wasn't considered. The Golf was a new design.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are right the Prius is in the running for 2010. If the Prius wins it will make for a good debate with the 2009 vs the 2010 car of the year titles.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    I believe that award was bestowed (or some type of award) back in 2004 to the Prius. For 2010 the Prius really evolved but didn't change too much. Just because an award was given to a car does not mean it is golden. Anyone remember the Renault Alliance? Need I say more? The Golf may be a fine automobile if you want to be very familiar with the service bay at your nearest dealer. Sales figures don't lie. The Prius is a hit whereas the Golf is just an also ran in the US market sought after by a very niche clientele.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    The reason the Golf sells is because it is small, it is a hatch and thats what Europeans like. If anyone is arrogant it is you because you seem to have a penchant for knocking the Prius. Sales figures in the US are what I go by as that is the metric that matters most. I don't care what people drive abroad. I care what goes on in this country with respect to the auto industry. It is a shame that you can't admit that hybrids and EVs are the wave of the future. The Toyota hybrid system is so advanced that Nissan and Ford have licensed the technology in their hybrids. Where is VW on that horizon? No where. They will never , ever sell their cars in the numbers that even come close to what Toyota or Honda are selling. Americans want reliable vehicles and that is why they stay away from VWs. Oh, lastly I see you have an old Lexus (aka Toyota with a higher education). 1990 right? I'd like to see if a 1990 VW would hold a candle to your Lexus. LOL
  • marlyecemarlyece Member Posts: 26
    Geez folks, there are positive aspects about both cars. Why can't we just get along? :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'd like to see if a 1990 VW would hold a candle to your Lexus. LOL

    Maybe if VW was selling cars in 1989 for $41k they would be built to last 20 years plus. VW was the number one import before Toyota ever came to the USA. I bought into the Toyota myth in 1964 with one of their sub standard Land Cruisers. The engine was a disaster. A very poor copy of the Chevy 6. VW may be wise limiting themselves in a declining US auto market.

    It is a shame that you can't admit that hybrids and EVs are the wave of the future.

    Who said anything about EVs being bad. I was very interested in EVs until the price of electricity in San Diego headed toward the heavens. You can expect cap n trade to raise those electric prices to where an EV is a marginal choice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you dig back into the archives you will find that the diesel haters came out of the woodwork about the time the Prius started to become popular in 2004. Several threads have been shut down because the rhetoric got hateful. I have no problem with someone else owning a hybrid. I have recommended the Prius on several occasions. I do have my own opinions and preferences. I just feel diesel is a superior fuel to our current regular unleaded gas with ethanol added. I will not buy another gas car because of the Federal mandates forcing US to use that horrible wasteful fuel. I would not even consider owning a VW Golf Gasser. With me it goes way beyond just the dislike of the complexity of hybrids.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    VW has excellent resale value year after year.
    Below is KBB predicted resale value after 5 years ownership for the past two years.

    Top 10 Brands: Top 10 Brands:
    Best Resale Value 2009 Best Resale Value 2008
    1. Honda 44.5 1. Volkswagen 48.1
    2. Toyota 42.7 2. BMW 45.6
    3. Volkswagen 40.9 3. Acura 45.4

    Retained value is an important factor in a vehicle purchase. Knowing that a vehicle will actually be worth something in the future is more important than sales numbers.

    VW expects to post a profit this year, Toyota expects to post a loss this year. It must be reassuring to Toyota investors that the following statement was made, jpeters1970 "The Toyota hybrid system is so advanced that Nissan and Ford have licensed the technology in their hybrids. Where is VW on that horizon? No where

    What is important is the driving enjoyment obtained from driving a VW TDI that is missing from the boring appliance Prius.

    There is some small hope that future vehicles from Toyota will appeal to enthusiasts as Akio Toyoda has stated Toyota must build cars that are fun and affordable. Also of note, Toyoda, 53, described himself as a "car nut" and race driver who loves the feel of a car on the open road.

    "I want to see Toyota build cars that are fun and exciting to drive," he said.

    I too, would like to see Toyota build cars that are fun and exciting to drive. Imagine a modern day fun to drive Celica with a hybrid powertrain.

    I'd rather ride a bicycle than be stuck in a Prius every day.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Wow didn't know anyone would spend that type of money on what is essentially a Toyota with heavy cream. Guess PT Barnum was right. :P Perhaps you can find a used Phaeton, I understand they can be had for the cheap.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Actually you're entitled to your opinion but you are sure in the minority. Now excuse me while I load my trek bike into my beautiful hatch Toyota Prius. I would not want to put it in the back of a TDI lest the fumes destroy my chrome. Let's face it guys, diesels are a dying breed in this country. Jeep brought a diesel Liberty over that lasted what? 2 years? Sure they sold, but they were crap. Not one American or Japanese manufacturer will spend their hard earned money on bringing to market a vehicle that won't sell in numbers that will be profitable. Only reason the Germans bring their diesels here is because their R&D is covered by the numbers sold in Europe. Only reason the Europeans drive diesels is because it is considerable cheaper than gas. If gas was 5 bucks a gallon and diesel was 4 (just an example) I'd be forced to drive one of the vibration vehicles too.

    Now, I have to go down to my garage and roll out on electric mode (try to keep an fumes from the garage, try doing that in a diesel ). Next, I'll be at my first traffic light in total silence listening to either Howard Stern or NPR. Now, I'll toggle my temp down just a wee (can you do that in a VW on the steering wheel?). I didn't think so. Ahhhhh the joys of owning a Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Next, I'll be at my first traffic light in total silence listening to either Howard Stern or NPR.

    That says it all. :P

    Just stay on level ground and out of any crosswinds or slippery surfaces and you should be fine.

    PS
    Diesel is actually more expensive in some EU countries. They like to add tax to level the playing field for the poor folks stuck with gas cars. :shades:

    http://www.see-search.com/business/fuelandpetrolpriceseurope.htm
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > With me it goes way beyond just the dislike of the complexity of hybrids.

    Yes, you do have to go beyond hybrids. DSG is far more complicated.

    All those gears & clutches make a person wonder why arguing against the simplicity of electric-motors and a split-device would even be attempted.
    .
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    I'd have to agree with you wholeheartedly. I imagine that the DSG has caused VW lots of headaches with its unneeded complexity. With all the supposed complexities bestowed upon the Prius (and with millions on the road) I wonder why it gets a stellar report card from various sources. VW OTOH does not covet such a pristine service record. And just to make things perfectly clear, they (VW) seem to be the leader in engine design. I wonder if they got an award for their ubiquitous 5 cylinder 2.5 liter engine that struggles to output 150 hp. Talk about ingenuity. This is the reason VW is not selling in the numbers that they would like in the states. Their Microsoft mentality taking pot shots at the Prius (that dumb commercial a few months ago comparing a TDI and the Prius) was shelved due to it not having any impact on sales.

    RE: My Prius handles fine in crosswinds, windy roads etc. Tires make a HUGE difference and I changed mine out after 3 months of ownership. My rear passengers are always amazed at the roominess of the rear seats. I'd imagine I'd have to have midgets for friends if I drove a Golf. Have you ever seen that back seat? LOL
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would be embarrassed to invite guests into either one. If we take guests we have vehicles for the occasion. The Lexus for the Opera or dinner and the Sequoia for trips to the desert. I don't believe in one size fits all. The Golf TDI would be for running errands and fun drives in the country. I have never had to change tires on a vehicle before at least 35K miles. Too bad Toyota is so cheap they put crap tires that need to be dumped after 3 months. It was a smart move as they were unsafe at any speed. Very good for sitting at stop lights though.

    My guess is the VW 2.5L gas engine was built for the non discriminating US buyer. All they can think of is PZEV and that engine fits their PZEV just fine. I would not have one.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    VW/Audi put the worse tires on and Audi Allroad I had. Worse piece of crap I've ever had! Just like all VWs. JUNK. The tires on my alroad were so bad that I could not drive the car in the rain and it was AWD. How's that for crap? Most manufacturers put cheap rubber on their cars and VW is no exception. As for the opera? Have fun in your Lexus. I'll be taking the Prius which will get more looks of admiration than a belching TDI puttering up to the curb. Can't remember anyone in Hollywood coming to the academy awards in a diesel. LOL!!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think you know the answers. You are just in denial. The Prius has at least a 1/3rd more parts than any comparable non hybrid. The DSG is superior to any other transmission on the market. It is only now being used in low priced vehicles. It is lighter than a conventional automatic transmission and as economical as a manual transmission. It will be my choice as my wife does not want a manual shift.

    You should know after 6 years that you are not any more likely to convince me that hybrids are worthwhile, than my convincing you that diesels are the best way to save energy. We are at opposite ends of the political and automotive spectrum.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You missed Darryl Hannah in her diesel running on biodiesel. Something no Prius can do. B100 is renewable. The Prius will not run on any renewable fuel.

    The National Biodiesel Board (NBB) recently praised actress Daryl Hannah ("Northfork," "Dancing at the Blue Iguana," "Splash") and rock 'n roll legend Neil Young ("Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young") for helping to bolster awareness of the practicality of biodiesel, the non-toxic biodegradable vehicle fuel that can be manufactured from recycled cooking grease.

    This week, Young embarked on his Greendale Tour from Vancouver, British Columbia to Amherst, Massachusetts, fueling his trucks and tour buses with biodiesel.

    A Golf TDI running on B100 is environmentally superior to a Prius running E10.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    The PSD of the Prius is far superior to the DSG. I am not in denial at all. It seems all you do all day is sit around your computer and post lies about a car you really know nothing about. In our community we call it Prius Envy. The only remedy for your illness is to go out and buy one if you can find one It seems that everyone in the US wants to buy one but they can't make them fast enough.

    An interesting tidbit. Just looked at the top ten selling cars for August as they had the C4C deal going on. I believe Toyota was listed twice and no mention of VW. I guess people don't want to trade in their clunkers for a VW. What does that tell you!!! LOL!!!!! Heck... even Hyundai sold better than VW. Hyundai has been in the US market for such a short time in comparison to VW. Hybrids in general are going to do quite well in the years to come. There is no hope for diesels. They will sell in limited quantities to the few people that prefer NVH, foaming fill-ups, searching for diesel, and paying a buck more in the winter. Gotta love dem hybrids.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Wasn't that the ad campaign by Toyota. Trade a clunker for a clunker. I was glad to see Hyundai do well. They offer more bang for the dollar than Toyota, Honda or Nissan. I would not include them as competition with the current Jetta TDI. They have nothing that gets close in actual mileage. I don't know about any dealer other than the one closest to me. I know they were selling their Jetta TDI's as soon as they roll off the truck without messing with that goofy C4C. It was just what Toyota needed to get rid of car loads of 2009 Prius and Corollas that they could not sell. If someone wants a Prius here in San Diego they are everywhere still for sale. Take your pick. If you want to spend $30k for a fancy Toyota Echo.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    A Toyota echo? LOL. You are so far off the mark it is not funny. I gather your Lexus is just a glorified Avalon for which you paid double. What person in their right mind would do that? Like I said before, the TDI sells in small numbers because Americans don't and will not buy diesels. The Prius is a testament to the future of all hybrids that will come down the line from other manufacturers. Fortunately VW will not be producing hybrids until they learn how to make a car that is free from electronic gremlins and also learn how to make a transmission that works. That is the reason VW sells so few cars in the states. People want to buy reliable cars which is why Honda and Toyota are doing so well. I'm glad I'm not a VW dealer now!!!
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Hyundai was supposed to bring a diesel stateside but they decided not to because fuel prices lowered and they knew US customers would not buy diesels in large quantities with fuel so low. Maybe if gas goes up to $4.00 we'll have a shot at Hyundai bringing over their diesel. Honda too. Then Americans would have a chance to buy something reliable as opposed to VW lemons. BMW has a great diesel but their maintenance after warranty expiration is too high. Mercedes are over rated and too expensive so they aren't in the running either. Thank goodness we have the reliable Prius with a satisfaction rating of 97%. VW can only dream of numbers like that!!!
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    I had heard about the snooty Prius attitudes before but never until now experienced it. The few Prius owners I know in person don't spend all day bragging about their choice of automobile. Very normal, open minded people who understand others that choose not to buy a Prius for their individual needs.

    JPeters - you my friend can step down off your soap box at any time. I, and everyone else that reads this thread everyday, fully understand that you love your Prius and that you believe it is the best, most fuel efficient automobile on the road. Lots of people agree with you too as sales numbers show. But chill man. Let diesel guy drive his fuel efficient oil burner in peace. Diesel guy is trying to do the right thing buy getting a more evironmentally friendly, fuel efficient car just like you are. Prius guy and Diesel hatchback guy are not that different - do you at all understand this? I wonder if you realize how elitist you sound. Honestly don't mean to sound rude. I just think you should breathe for a moment and open your mind to the idea of a guy trying to buy a fun to drive car that is better for the planet than a R.U.G. automobie. Jiminy Christmas.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    But chill man. Let diesel guy drive his fuel efficient oil burner in peace.


    I am a recent 2010 Prius owner who doesn't give a damned about these diesel versus hybrid arguments. I am chilled, a bit too chilled to engage in these endless debates because I know I made the right decision.

    I think your comment above is very one sided. The diesel folks and the hybrids folks in this forum are not going to leave each others alone in peace because the whole point of this forum is to debate the merits of owning either a VW Golf TDI or a Toyota Prius.

    Chill man indeed, but without a bit of a heated debate this forum will no longer be active. Keep up the good work JPeters, Gagrice and all others..
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Nothing elitist at all. This is a debating forum which looks at both sides of the equation. When wrong information is spewed it has to be refuted. I'd have the same passion if this were Camaro v Mustang or Camry v Accord etc.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's get back to comparing the two cars and drop this ongoing personal beef please.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    As battery technology continues to improve, not taking advantage of an electric motor makes even less sense. The new Prius and the upcoming plug-ins will provide the real-world proof of that.

    Non-Hybrid Diesel will simply fade away as the number of those buying hybrids grows.

    Being clean & efficient will include the use of an electric motor, regardless of the fuel used.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The Prius hybrid automobile is popular for its fuel efficiency, but its electric motor and battery guzzle rare earth metals, a little-known class of elements found in a wide range of gadgets and consumer goods

    As hybrid cars gobble rare metals, shortage looms

    Damage to earth to obtain an ever materials for batter production is expanding at an alarming rate.

    Jack Lifton, an independent commodities consultant and strategic metals expert, calls the Prius "the biggest user of rare earths of any object in the world."

    Prius may be the single most environmentally damaging vehicle.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    While I do like the simplicity of an electric car. Our government is making moves that will negate the advantages of EVs or Plug-in Hybrids. With my current provider SDG&E it is difficult to stay out of the top tier pricing for electricity. When you use more than 445 KWHs in a month the rate jumps to 31 cents per KWH topping out at 35 Cents. SDG&E just applied for another price increase today. So who knows where it will end.

    The Chevy Volt has gotten a lot of press lately as a great solution. They base their very optimistic figures on 5 cent per KWH night rates. We don't have any night rates. It is all the same. According to my calculations the Chevy Volt will cost about 3 times as much per mile on electric only as your Prius or a Golf TDI. I doubt that any plug in will do any better based on miles per KWH.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    We're pretty much off track here and no longer having a comparison discussion of two specific vehicles which is what this discussion is supposed to be about.

    If you will search the discussion lists you will find places to discuss diesels, hybrids, and EV's in general.

    If need be, I'll retire this discussion until someone actually wants to use it to comparison shop the two vehicles in the title. :sick:
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    This issue has been discussed already and it is SO old it ain't funny. There is absolutely NO truth to this whatsoever. I can't believe some of the stuff people believe. Hey Mopar... the world is indeed flat. LOL :P
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    As usual with GM their projections are way off. I can only dream of 5 cents PKH. There is no such thing as low off peak rates in the NE. The Volt will definitely be a failure. No one is gonna spend 40 grand on a car that can only go 40 miles. What happens after forty miles? I don't want to go into that issue as I am sure there is a thread for that. We certainly don't want to annoy the moderator as she/he would like us to stay on track.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    f that article is correct, at current prices, a Prius uses about $120 of rare earths.

    Per the article, a Prius has 1 kg of neodymium in the magnets. Current price looks like $20/kg.

    Neodymium metal prices

    Plus 10 kg of lanthanum in the battery. Current price of about $10/kg.

    Lanthanum metal prices

    Whereas nickel is about $8/lb, which works out to about $18/kg. So the 30 lbs of nickel in the battery currently costs maybe $250.

    Kitco - Spot Nickel Historical Charts and Graphs - Nickel charts - Industrial metals

    If you want rare, the platinum for the catalytic converter is three orders of magnitude more expensive, at about $33,000 a kg (about $1250 per troy ounce these days, roughly 12 troy ounces in your standard pound.)

    A typical catalytic converter might use 5(?) grams of platinum. If I did the arithmetic right, I come up with about $165 worth of platinum in the catalytic converter.

    So at current prices the rank ordering is:
    Nickel in the battery: $250.
    Platinum in the catalytic converter: $165.
    Rare earths: $120.

    Let's not get started on the cell phone batteries in landfills as well as old hard drives.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    f that article is correct, at current prices, a Prius uses about $120 of rare earths.

    And the damage to the environment as a consequence of obtaining resources and manufacturing batteries for the Prius, what is that worth?
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    You're kidding right? What about the environmental impact of drilling for oil? What about the precious metals that go into conventional vehicles. There is an abundant amount of some of these elements and eventually technology will evolve that will enable us to harvest more. In the meantime, there is a bounty on hybrid batteries and they are all being recycled when the time comes necessary. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

    I guess you forgot to read this article.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN28385099

    When the price is right, things magically appear. Hybrids and Turbines.. Gotta love em!!!

    Oh well... I gotta glide down to Starbucks for my late evening latte. Usually a bunch of Prius folks are in the parking lot chit chatting. I feel so good to be a part of that group. Makes me all tingly inside!!! :shades:
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    jpeters1970 I have had a few VWs (late 90's). Seats were HORRIBLE. I'll take my Prius any day over a VW.

    Have you driven the current VW Golf and Jetta models? Or are you comparing a 2010 Prius to 1990 VW's?

    VW TDI Great Seats

    VW has better seats than Toyota, and superior interiors too.
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