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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
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Comments
I can recall the absolute bru ha ha (2003/2004 MY) from Prius owners when the EPA of 60 city and 50 highway was posted under the "old" testing procedures. Owners posting 45-48 (combined) (-18 to -13% worse). For a host of reasons, EPA decided to change the tried and true testing procedures
2003 TDI EPA was 42/49. As one who considered a Prius, I was getting 48-52 mpg +6% to +15.5% better in a rolling parking lot commute. So really the % delta was 24% to 28.5% !! So while I was not one of the (Prius) owners complaining, it was pretty obvious (even to me a now diesel and long time gasser owner) the EPA "had " to do something, if the stated policy of promoting hybrids and dissing diesel was to continue.
But really it is not a big deal as all the diesel oems have to do is to implement the engine @ idle shut off mechanisms. Some diesel oems have put it in the European higher mpg diesels, the EPA and CARBS are loathed to let over here.
Comparison was 2009 vs. 2009, it is still 2009.
If you are trying to make the point that comparing a 2009 to a 2009 is not relevant, then I have to tell you I strongly disagree.
Oh, wait a sec.. you actually referred to the comparo of the old Gen 2 Prius to the current Gen TDI....Buwahahahahaha!!!! Ahhh, now I see..... You need to grasp at the slightest breath of positive fresh air, sort of like being alone at sea with no help in sight, ehhh? Here I'll throw you another gasp of fresh air. The current gen TDI is better than the Gen 1 Prius....: Have a blast.. :shades:
Buwahahahahaha!!!! You entertain yourself.
Prius is does mileage well and that is the only thing it does well.
What has been done is that the numbers have had 2 discounts applied to the data to make then numbers more accurate for day to day driving. I thought everyone knew this!! :confuse: Yes, everyone knows that hybrids did not meet the EPA mpg ratings before the ratings were discounted for hybrids.
I appreciate 104wb for pointing out that document. But what stirs my suspicion is this notion of yours about anti-diesel folks suppressing that document. That sounds very dubious indeed.
Based on existing documents the Prius remains KING
Otherwise the Prius has it all over the VW TDI's in just about every category; highway fuel economy, city fuel economy, room inside, reliability, sales volume. Different perspectives.
Reason is that mileage and emissions are the only areas the Prius excels in.
Prius delivers the highest mpg of any passenger car sold in U.S at the current time. That is not disputed.
Where are you seeing the Prius mpg being challenged?
If sales volume is so important to your perspective, why not drive a Corolla, it outsells the Prius. Or why not the Focus, it outsells the Prius so it must be superior to Prius.
What is the reliability difference between the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf TDI? Or the 2009 Prius vs. the 2009 Jetta TDI?
You must have some data to back up your statement, or is it just your opinion based on anecdotal experience?
They may have as well compared the 09 Jetta to the 2001 Prius, also an outdated model.
Regarding reliability, unfortunately VW's past reputation has to be disproven before it gets the benefit of the doubt; c.f. Hyundai which is in the midst of accomplishing that goal. The Toyota hybrids are always among the most reliable vehicles on the road, the Prius being the most reliable vehicle in its class. That reputation has to be disproven also.
Corolla vs Prius? Again this thread and this discussion concerns only the Golf ( and Jetta by association ) and the Prius. Nothing else.
The poster that made reference to it, clearly said it was removed.
..."Based on existing documents the Prius remains KING"...
Judging by the sales of Ford Focus/ Toyota Corolla/ Honda Civic and many others in the segment, and the relative lower sales of the Prius, evidently an overwhelming majority of folks (those who pull the trigger anyway) think other wise. The cost per mile driven (over all) seems to be the "king".
That is even with the 3,500/4,500 so called "Cash For Clunkers" recent give away program, where Focus,Corolla, Civic, out did the Prius. It barely topped the Camry. If more folks were more convinced of the "value added" for the Prius and were put off by its higher price, surely $-3,500/-4,500 OFF/discount would be a PRIUS deal MAKER !!??
Where? How about today's posts. Guiness Book of World Records and the post regarding the missing document that proves that the relative MPG advantage of a Prius is not as large as documented.
King of MPG or sales volume?
You do know the difference between sales volumes and MPG?
The poster that made reference to it, clearly said it was removed
And as I said the smoking gun is not there. How more clearer do you want me to write this?
Now whose doing a dumb impression?
Your post was focused on sales volume? What the heck has that got to do with the King of MPG in terms of what is offered by the big auto makers ?
The longer a Prius is kept means the cost per mile advantage can exceed that of a Fit, Civic or Focus especially if driven mainly in stop and go city traffic.
Vancouver taxis are increasingly Priuses because many high mileage Priuses have proven themselves as providing the lowest cost per miles.
Also a Prius has about as much interior space is more comparable to a Camry than a Corolla, Fit, or Focus . So that comparison itself is not even justified.
In fact if I am not mistaken the VW Golf is less practical and spacious than a Corolla/Matrix.
If you want to talk about a comparison of the vehicles in the title, great. But let's rein this in and stick closer to the subject please. This has all the earmarks of being right on the edge of personal insults, and that's not going to happen is it?
Thanks for your participation and cooperation.
So for example in 04 , I had the choice of a 04 Civic, 04 Civic Hybrid, 04 Prius for an everyday commute. Just to own hybrids cost 8,000 and 12,000 MORE, respectively. Needless to say 8,000 and 12,000 dollars can buy a lot of commute fuel. In my case @38 mpg Civic vs 42 mpg Civic Hybrid vs 45 mpg Prius, you can do the math to indicate how long it would take to BE.
If 43 years to 64.5 years don't jump out at you ... let me know....
But $8k/12k can buy 2,667 gals-4,000 gals of fuel (@3 per gal) or @38 mpg 101,346 miles to 152,000 miles of commute fuel. :surprise: :shades:
But here is a dirty little secret...While extremely high-mileage hybrids provide eco bragging rights, they don't save much more gas than midsize sedans.
Hi Yo Silver, Away!!!!!
You are not keeping up here. That was our resident Prius salesman using that as some kind of importance in the debate.
Otherwise the Prius has it all over the VW TDI's in just about every category; highway fuel economy, city fuel economy, room inside, reliability, sales volume. Different perspectives.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f19c3c1/256#MSG256
Are you unaware of the PWR button or just hoping that others are not?
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I happen to think it does. It means over a long varied route, under all kinds of conditions the Jetta TDI is capable of record breaking mileage. You are also wrong about the driver aspect. There is a very capable fellow Wayne Gerdes that used to post here on a regular basis that has set records with different vehicles including the Prius. Just no one wants to be stuck in an uncomfortable Prius for 9500 miles over all kinds of roads to prove a point. So you are more than welcome to give it a try. Until then the Jetta TDI holds the long distance high MPG record. Records are made to break. Go for it.
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Now we are getting somewhere. A cross country race between a 2010 Prius and the 2010 Golf TDI. Maybe like the one with the ML320 CDI and the RX400h when the diesel beat out the hybrid for mileage champ.
YOU set up this thread as Prius vs Golf TDI. Since both are only cars the major difference is the power system; i.e. hybrid vs diesel. This IS the primary subject to discuss.
If YOU don't want a hybird vs diesel discussion then don't set up the discussion that way. YOU know that over the last 5-10 years herein that YOU'RE throwing lighter fluid on smoldering coals.
A Dodge Viper has a lot of power, but it's suspension is so woefully ill-equipped to handle it... that it takes all the fun out of the drive. But a Lotus with it's 1.8 liter 189-hp engine has a suspension tuned to actually handle the power. So you could whip it around a turn at high speed without ever having to even look at the brakes.
I do not have references, but I seem to recall an article he penned, where he got Toyota to pony up for a "so called "performance" Corollla and proceeds to coax 59-63 mpg out of it. Pretty good for a 25 mpg combined rating. (136% to 152% better).
On a 2003 Prius, he was able to get 75 mpg from a combined 44.9 mpg (67% better)
So I have no doubt on a 03 Golf/ Jetta TDI or even a 2009 Jetta TDI, that he probably could wring out 136% of 46.4 mpg combined to 109.5 mpg, or of 40.2 mpg combined to 94.87 mpg. respectively.
I can get 59 mpg going 75 mph with burst to 80/85 mph, just trying not to get a speeding ticket on a 03 Jetta TDI, on an EPA rating of 42/49 with 46.4 combined. That is (only) 27% better.
Anyone can google Wayne Gerdes and Toyota and I am sure a lot of articles will pop up.
Maybe we could get a Golf TDI against a 2010 Prius in a 24 hour race at say Daytona. That would test speed, handling, mileage and reliability in a 24 hour period. See what both cars are made of. VW had that Jetta TDI series that was very popular. The drivers had to buy the car and qualify for the series. Wonder how well a Prius would hold up at top speed for 24 hours straight? Or even better a Pike's Peak run.
What we find is the 1.5L Prius both have a 'knee in the curve' at 65 mph and this corresponds with an optimum cruise speed. Any higher, and the mileage begins to fall off.
The 1.3L Honda Insight runs into problems at high speeds and that is what the EPA and 'head to head' tests are showing at highway speeds:
But at speeds of 60 mph or lower, the Honda Insight is a real fuel sipper.
For those considering a 2010 Prius, this is what users are reporting at PriusChat:
Questions? Concerns?
Bob Wilson
This beats the chatter about Corolla cost per mile, road races between a Prius & TDI and all the other silly diversions.
Data not chatter proves the worth of a Prius.
1. how to do the math
2. understand the ramifications OF the math
3. figure out if one wants to be convinced by the full court marketing and product positioning of the Prius.
I would take it that most Prius buyers emphasize #3
Unfortunatelyl that Edmunds post of yours is not math and I am not trying to be personal about your acute math skills.. It is all about assumptions not math. Garbage in-garbage out is the case if the assumptions are not correct and boy that 2004 study of yours is pure garbage.
A cost comparison cannot be assumed based on 2004 figures (fuel costs) and it cannot assume what kind of driving the driver does. (downtown traffic, highway or rural roads). The 2004 figure does not involve a 2010 Prius. So do you still want to see my 83 MB 300D study done in 1983 with 1983 assumptions?
You are going backwards and confusing the issue, if you really think the issues have not been about assumptions/measurements. I just gave comparison assumptions and measurements. Math allows you to evaluate assumptions/measurements.
Perhaps that is the real "curve/screw ball" about the cited Edmunds.com article: tt goes against commonly held assumptions !!?? So you are correct garbage in/ out. So not only do most folks not want to hear about it, they obviously have a hard time wrapping their arms/heads around the presented concepts. Math is cited as the problem. So in that sense, the math doesn't help, despite it being a representation of the TRUTH.
To address your next point, unless you have say 10,000 to 30,000 miles on your 2010 Prius, you are PROJECTING. If you have 10,00 to 30,000 miles on your 2010 you are MEASURING. The obvious questions here are: 1. in 10,000 to 30,000 miles does the projection match the reality? 2. how and what degree did they deviate. ? I know you get this. But if you chose to indicate you do not "get it" I know it will be by choice. Please also understand I am not asking for "agreement".
So for example, why are you keeping your 83 MB 300 D ? I think it would not be too unlike why I want to keep my TDI for a minimum of 500,000 miles?
To make a similar point on the counterpoint argument's side; why would you NOT want to keep a 2004 Prius hybrid a minimum of 500,000 miles (in 7 MYs !!! )? There is literally nothing radically different about the 2010 Prius??? (that would warrant spending another 25,000 dollars... my op/ed !!)
Your (others also such as diesel haters, etc) attitude would probably be radically different towards me if I had ended up with a 2004 Prius and going on 123,000 miles.
good comeback.
Here's my combeback:
How's that for cute.
http://www.oneighturbo.com/2009/03/04/toyota-prius-vs-vw-jetta-tdi-diesel/
Prius vs Jetta TDI, 8000 miles Portland to Portland. Interesting stories from the drivers.
For those of you solely fixated on stats, the MPG part of this was that the CBTDI Jetta acheived an average of 41.4 MPG against the Prius 40.96 MPG (corrected).
Honestly, this isn't great mileage for EITHER vehicle, I usually get a good 44- 48 MPG on my '06 TDI that I drive here in the Northwest (combo city/highway) and I won't even start on the Prius stats I'm sure the good folks over at 'PriusChat' can (and probably will) throw at me. But they are what they are - and we promised transparancy. Remember, we drove these cars HARD like real people - not like a bunch of hyper-milers or MPG gauge watchers. The journey inherently contained a lot of highway mileage - we typically drove at or over the speed limit (like real people do) and while we did switch drivers on a fair and regular interval - we drove both cars with a heavy foot.
For us, this challenge wasn’t about mileage – as we said, the internet is filled with that stuff – for us the real “test” in our case, was a (Green) Human one. Traveling 8,000 miles in a few short weeks amounting to a lot of driving and gave our testers the chance to really get to know each vehicle. The challenge was about cars and PEOPLE.
http://www.greenhuman.net/
A prior generation Prius? Is this the best you can dig up?
Nothing like news biased by the tester himself?
Please note the tester himself is someone who drives a TDI which if you are not aware shows where his bias is.
This anecdotal stale news is worth nothing compared to the compelling data recently provided by Bob Wilson which consists of a larger population and real data. Not the ramblings of a highly biased and narrow minded TDI owner/tester .
My cousin in Toronto struggles to get 30 MPG on his 05 VW TDI.
I am now getting over 50 MPG with similar traffic conditions as what he is faced
with.
The first few weeks of ownership I got about 45 MPG but now eureka I am above 50 MPG. Not bad for a former lead footed BMW driver.
That in itself says a lot.
C'mon Volks you can do better than that? Is this all you do to debate the merits of a VW TDI.
How it does in a race track? (boy nothing is as exciting as a dull TDI or hybrid econo boxes on a race track) :sick:
The cost per mile ownership of a econ-Corolla compared to a Camry-platform based Prius. Now ain't that relevant?
The Honda Fit versus TDI I think would be a better forum because after this discussion I dont think the TDI can even compare to a PRius.
Good bye Volks
However diesel's flexibility is one of its neat features, as I am sure you have heard of the BMW 335 D with 265 hp/425 # ft of torque !!This thing can be literally a monster in a compact sized package. 33 to 36 mpg (vs the 335I gassers 20-24 mpg) is pretty trick for this kind of GO (35% better as a minimum) . I for one loved it, but it is first and foremost a ROAD car and the greater % of mileage would have been for commuting.
The tire replacement costs would match the fuel costs ! Since it is a purposeful commute, my last (4 each) tires replacement on a Honda Civic @ 75,000 miles cost TOTAL as much as one BMW 335 I tire would cost.
However the thread is stale news in light of the fact the 2010 Golf TDI is not yet out on the market. So in that sense, I have taken pains to compare a 03 TDI to an 03/04 Prius. Over in the real world Prius mpg numbers, John (un abashed Prius promoter trying to masquerade as impartial car nut) almost had a cow when I mentioned my real world 03 TDI mpg numbers. He seems to take great pride in citing the latest Prius MPG and totally ignoring the environmental as well as financial ramifications of buying 3 cars to one. On the other hand, there is NOTHING wrong with buying 3 cars to one. However that might be another discussion.
"For those of you solely fixated on stats, the MPG part of this was that the CBTDI Jetta achieved an average of 37.4 MPG against the Prius 34.96 MPG."
Of course, the rush to use a 2009 instead of a 2010 was a dead giveaway to question intent right from the start. MPG was touted as extremely important all along the way, yet numbers were never posted. Then afterward, we got weeks of downplaying that importance. Then when they were finally revealed, they suddenly got "corrected". No detail was ever provided.
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That makes my point exactly. Your bias lies with Prius as that is what you drive. I am waiting for Toyota to come to the plate. After their RX400h got whupped in the match-up with the Mercedes diesel they have played it low key. They currently hold the winning hand with a car that sells good. As more diesels start filtering in, such as the Golf TDI and people get to realize that you don't have to drive a frumpy looking, poor handling car to get good mileage, VW will increase their market share. Just as VW did in the Cash for Clunkers program.
You are making a claim that cannot be confirmed in the platform for the Camry being the basis for the Prius. Probably the closest match in the Toyota lineup would be the Matrix and the Prius. The Jetta Sportswagen offers a lot more room for stuff than the Prius. 35% more storage than a Prius to be exact..
The edmunds.com piece indicates there might be an app $7,000 premium over the Jetta TDI (certainly there is a range).
@2.93 (current diesel prices vs RUG @3.07) , that $7k premium would buy 2,389 gals of D2 fuel, or @ 40 mpg, 95,563 miles more.
Since the (TBD) 2010/2011 Golf is a less pricey variant over the Jetta and the MSRP and invoice pricing are yet to hit the data files, there are probably even more premium differences between Golf 's and 2010 Prius'es.
Further, you would think that Toyota would engineer ( later gen) Prius'es to have much better handling and durability of wear able parts than it already does.
But the counterpoint: if the customer base is just fine with lousy sub par handling and low durability performance..., why bother? (and they haven't)
This might be a tad TOO technical or TMI (too much information) , but Toyo won a portion of the lowest bidder contract to provide so called "lower rolling resistance" tires for the 2010 Prius.
Upshot: I would be interested in how many miles the oem Toyo Prius tires will do (from real users like...John1701a.)
Through a lot of research for replacement tires for the TDI, Toyo seems to have done a great job in price/performance parameters and seems to offer great oem replacement tires that are better than.... oem. Time/mileage will tell whether or not it will match or exceed the TDI oem tires's of 112,300 miles or.... NOT. So far , except for new tires break in , I have not experienced a hit in mpg. Indeed the mpg is the best that it has ever been.
In short: NON-HYBRID diesel
There's nothing wrong with diesel when used in a clean & efficient manner.
But certain people absolutely insist that's not the case. They continue to claim that hybrid supporters only want gas and will argue against anything diesel. That just plain is not true.
We've seen PZEV prototypes of diesel vehicles. We know how efficient hybrids are. Why some automakers refuse to deliver either is no reason to misrepresent those who endorse the next-generation products.
Face it, traditional (engine-only) technology cannot deliver both our efficiency & emissions needs. Adding an electric motor is required.
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Indeed, I am not against hybrids or gassers, but you knew that and ignore that to make false syllogisms..
In your false syllogism, the facts are still 97% passenger vehicle fleet RUG to PUG and LESS than 1% passenger diesel (75% of 3% diesel are light truck diesels). Of the 97% RUG to PUG app 2% are 100 % gasser/hybrid. There are no E85 ethanol/hybrids. So if you count the 2% hybrid passenger vehicle fleet starting with the 2003 Prius or 5.114 M vehicles (.00333% per year) to get to 12% SUV population) or 30.684 M vehicles , current growth rate will take app 36 years.........This is with a PRO HYBRID attitude. With a less than 1% passenger diesel population it would be hard to conclude the policy and attitude has been PRO diesel. Indeed anti diesel as been the rule.
Diesels continue to offer a cost effective alternative to the gasser hybrid and to the gassers only.
This is purely an op/ed, but it would seem that no good deeds go unpunished. For as the population of Prius' grow in places like LA LA land, where by far has the greatest population of hybrids.. the warnings are ever more about the quality of air getting ever worse.
How can you criticize a claim that is posted everywhere and is in itself a fact.
Why dont you Google" MC platform" which happens to be the platform of the current Toyota Camry and Toyota Prius .
How can you say this is not confirmed?
How can you make arguments against a car when you dont even know what it really is.
The new Prius is essentially the same size as its predecessor, although it is based on the Toyota MC platform, which is used for vehicles including the current Camry.
link title
sport package Run Flat 18 inch tires go for about Canadian $800(with taxes in Ontario)
Sorry but additional tire costs are going to be substantially more than gas savings especially if you a driver who drove as aggressively as I did and who visited more traffic courts than I am willing to admit
A BMW 335d is a thrill seeking decision not an economic decision based on savings.
My BMW 335i was a piece of unreliable junk and I am just glad I am not experiencing the same thing any more . The Ultimated Driving Me Crazy Experiences were too hard for me to bear.
The BMW 335d and BMW X5d are doing lousy in North America. These new introduced vehicles can only be sold with $4500 of incentivized bribe money. The Lexus hybrid RX450h are HOT vehicles without significant incentives while there will be acute shortages of the new hybrid Lexus HS.
You would expect waiting lists for new BMW diesels but the reality dictates otherwise. Fortunately Lexus is not losing any sleep over BMW diesels.
While I think it is personally cool, that the mpg went from (2nd gen) 46 combined mpg to 50 mpg combined (3rd gen) , the Edmunds.com fuel mileage article shows it to be of lesser consequence in the grand scheme of 12-15 mpg large car conversions to mid sized sedan mpg numbers (20-25 mpg). (aka eco bragging rights) . For me it would be to actually get 50 mpg at the lowest possible costs. Indeed if I stayed with gassers (I have for one commute car) 38-42 mpg in a Honda Civic (Corolla to keep on the Toyota track) makes all the cost per mile driven sense in the world.
Indeed, here is an easy example with a 15,000 per year commute requirement: I would save 95 gals per year @3.07 per gal= $291.65 yr/12 mo = $24.30 per mo.
From my .02 cent point of view, to spend 25 to 30k to get a 4 mpg increase (if I had the 2nd gen Prius)(or even the above example) would make NO sense at all; sans the ECO BRAGGING RIGHTS.