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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have advised several people that put a lot of miles in mostly urban and stop & go freeway driving to check out the Prius.

    That describes my wife and me pretty well. I get to cruise around the back country maybe once a year if that, and then it's pretty flat back country. The Golf TDI looks like a good choice for your needs. Or, you could tell your wife, "Honey, I've worked hard and I deserve a Porsche. Then get her a Beetle TDI, when it's available (women seem to love those), and enjoy the Porsche. Maybe a used one. :)
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    I just checked the user reports from the EPA web site: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

    51.6 MPG - 46 vehicles - 2010 Prius
    40.3 MPG - 24 vehicles - 2009 Jetta TDI auto
    40.2 MPG - 16 vehicles - 2009 Jetta TDI manual
    37.3 MPG - 13 vehicles - 2009 Jetta SportWagon TDI auto

    Lowest / Highest user reports:

    38/63 - 2010 Prius
    34/50 - Jetta TDI auto
    33/57 - Jetta TDI manual
    28/46 - Jetta SportWagon TDI auto

    Weird, even the owners of these vehicles are showing a strange MPG bias towards the 2010 Prius. As for pollution, I guess I don't care since my car is at home in Huntsville AL. I don't live in Japan, China, Korea, Mexico, Europe, Canada or any other foreign place. I'd recommend asking those folks if they care about manufacturing pollution ... any of them around this forum today?

    Bob Wilson
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    Bob Wilson has a news flash for everyone - the Prius gets better combined mileage than a Golf. Stop the presses.

    All Prius guys listen up for just a second as I break it down for you:

    The Prius DOES get better gas mileage than the tdi.
    The Prius DOES release fewer harmful emissions than the tdi.

    BUT............the tdi is still better than 98% of cars on the road today at both of these key issues ---------AND it is a blast to drive. Can you all admit that this is a good combination of attributes? Can you understand why a person would find this car a really great all-around automobile worthy of one's hard earned coin? Shock me and do it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am glad you went to all that trouble. You have pointed out the fallacy of the EPA fuel economy ratings. Many of US including VW corporate have complained that the new calculations are very accurate for the hybrids and out in left field for the diesel cars. As your little exercise graphically points out. The average VW Jetta TDI owner gets about 19% better overall mileage than the EPA estimates. While the Prius is within 3% of the EPA rating. Which gives Toyota a leg up on sales of the Prius to buyers that would cross shop. As they will believe the EPA estimates. Hopefully the EPA gets it right someday. Not holding my breath.

    PS
    I would give up more than 10 MPG for the added braking, safety and handling the VW TDIs offer.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The Toyota closer to the 2009 Jetta TDI is really the 2009 Camry hybrid (and the Camry hp and performance wise Jetta TDI's torque drawfs the hybrids by 71%, 236# ft to 138 # ft).

    www.fueleconomy.gov

    2009 Jetta TDI EPA 29 C / 40 H / 37 mpg comb

    2009 Camry Hybrid EPA 33 C / 34 H/ 34 mpg comb

    "MPG Est For Drivers Like You"

    is more like:

    2009 Jetta TDI 34 C / 50 H / comb 40.3 mpg

    2009 Camry Hybrid 31 C / 41 H / comb 36.7 mpg

    So Jetta TDI has 9.8% combined better mpg.

    If one drives primarily H, Jetta is 22% better than Camry Hybrid

    If one drives primarily C (surprise surprise) Jetta TDI is 9.6 % better

    The Jetta TDI costs $2,390 less MSRP and $1,327 INVOICE less than the Camry Hybrid.The Hybrid's T or typical option package adds $1,150 MSRP/ $989 INVOICE
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I have read the 2010 Golf TDI will start to hit the show rooms anywhere from Dec 2009 to Jan 2010. Edmunds.com does not yet list the pricing.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    First, this is a discussion about two hatchbacks: the Golf TDI and Prius. Not the Jetta. Not the Camry.

    Second, the Camry is a mid-sized car in every sense of the word, especially in length and interior room. The Jetta is a compact car in length and interior room.

    Third, why do you (and others) continually forget about a major part of the Prius' and TCH's powertrain: the electric motors? You only talk about the power and torque of the ICE part of their powertrains. That is like talking about the power and torque of the TDI, but only the diesel part--forget about the turbo and forget about DI.

    If you want to compare the Jetta TDI to the TCH (maybe because a comparison to the Prius is less favorable to the Jetta?), it's easy to create a discussion for that if there isn't one already.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    NO, as I said before, the reality is the hp power match ups for the TDI and Camry Hybrid are closer. Indeed if you want to compare engine size and mpg the 2010/2011 VW TDI Polo are more matched. However the mpg is 71 vs 50 for the Prius. So the last real year of comparison would be the 2003 model year. Again the www.fueleconomy.gov shows them to be neck and neck mpg wise.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you insist...

    TCH Hybrid System Net Power: 187 hp
    TCH Hybrid System Net Torque: 138 lb-ft + 199 lb-ft from 0-1500 RPM

    So power between TDI and Camry isn't even close, and on starting from rest (when you really need max torque), the torque isn't close either.

    But they are pretty close on the TDI vs. Prius:

    Prius Hybrid System Net Power: 134 hp
    Prius Hybrid System Torque: 105 lb-ft + 153 lb-ft
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So power between TDI and Camry isn't even close, and on starting from rest (when you really need max torque), the torque isn't close either.

    That is true only if you are a stop light drag racer. I need the torque when I have to kick it from 50 to 75 going up a long grade to pass a slow truck or Prius. That is when you really fall in love with diesel engines. You have to experience it to understand.

    You should test drive one sometime and you will be a believer. The Rabbit gasser is no match for the TDI out on the road.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    You really owe it to yourself to test drive the 2009/2010 TDI. I think you may just have much different perspective.

    "TCH Hybrid System Net Torque: 138 lb-ft + 199 lb-ft from 0-1500 RPM"

    So if you are saying the electric motors torque functions past 1500 RPMS AND delivers 199# ft of torque past 1500 rpms and is added to the gas engine torque past 1500 rpms then yes 337 # ft of torque is greater than 236# ft of torque.

    Is that what you are saying?

    Keep in mind the Camry Hybrid does the 0-60 in 8.4 seconds :sick:
    and the

    TDI does it in 8.9 seconds. :shades:
  • dchevdchev Member Posts: 38
    You guys compare Prius and WV TDI. Well, it is true that TDI is powerfull if you want to go from 50 to 70 mph; however, the new Prius engine is also POWERFULL.
    Many people (including myself) like it a lot. You have to remember that this is 1.8l engine, not the old 1.5l. It is not as fast as TDI, but is a very capable engine. Test and see for yourself!
    Also, WV Polo CANNOT compare to the Prius! You have to compare it to Toyota Yaris in size. The reason Polo has such a good gas millage is that its size is maybe 60% the size on the Prius. On the top of that, it is very slow........ ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Is that what you are saying?

    No. Please re-read my post.

    Question: What are the horsepower and torque of the engine in the Golf TDI without the turbocharger? And without DI? Those are the numbers we should use for future comparisons to the Prius, since according to you the output from those add-on components shouldn't count, and also any additional power/torque from those add-on components must be available at all RPMs.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Golf TDI without the turbocharger?

    You are grasping at straws with that argument. We should compare the Prius without the two electric motors then. Think it would make it to 60 MPH without a tailwind? The electric motors are the key to the Prius success. Not that anemic gas engine. Just as the turbo makes a small diesel engine practical.

    I think the two are a good comparo as they are. They have exactly the same passenger capacity, with the Prius an advantage in cargo capacity. No way the Prius will beat the Golf TDI to 60 MPH or any other speed contest. City mileage will be in the Prius column. Bucking the elements such as wind, snow, ice and mountains all in the Golf column. The Taylors have proven the VW TDI can top the Prius on a long haul mileage run. So all that is left is for VW to get them in the showrooms. I have the cash set aside if I really like the Golf TDI.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."No. Please re-read my post. "...

    No need to re-read your post , but....

    Good. Because the context in which you put the electric motors is/can be VERY misleading. So my original post stands. This is not written to upset anybody, but Camry Hybrid 8.4 second 0-60 sec are "slug" numbers (ok, frisky slug) So by default 8.9 sec 0-60 TDI numbers... are similarily SLUGGISH. However the performance part important to me are the 45 to 100 + mph ranges.

    "Use able" torque in the TDI dwarfs the Prius and even the heads up competitor, Camry Hybrid. The (USE ABLE) torque in the TDI is 71% greater than the Camry Hybrid.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    We should compare the Prius without the two electric motors then.

    That is exactly what is going on now. Thus I suggested we should consider the power/torque of the TDI without the turbo and TDI. Seems fair to me.

    Or we could be fair to both cars and compare their powertrains in their entirely, without omitting key components such as the electric motors (Prius) or turbo (TDI).

    They have exactly the same passenger capacity

    Their passenger volume is about the same. But passenger room/comfort is considerably different, e.g. much greater rear leg room in the Prius.

    City mileage will be in the Prius column.

    And highway mileage also, although with a smaller difference.

    Since you haven't driven the Gen 3 Prius yet, nor the Golf TDI, how do you know that the Golf beats the Prius in wind, snow, ice, and mountains? I can see the mountains. But wind, snow, and ice? A lot of that has to do with tire grip and effectiveness of brakes and ESC.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Please define "USABLE" torque.

    How about "usable" horsepower? Certainly the 187 net hp in the Camry dwarfs that of the Golf TDI, and even the 134 net hp of the Prius is very close to that of the TDI.

    Again, I see no point of comparing a real mid-sized sedan like the Camry to a compact hatchback like the Golf. Especially in a discussion that has nothing to do with the Camry.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Please define "USABLE" torque.

    How about "usable" horsepower? Certainly the 187 net hp in the Camry dwarfs that of the Golf TDI, and even the 134 net hp of the Prius is very close to that of the TDI."...

    This is an all too common misunderstanding that the majority of (gasser) folks who have not driven diesels have.At the risk of not being PC, most gasser drivers are clueless how it even works in the gassers THEY drive.

    I could define it, but I think most folks STILL would not get it. Indeed you are in (written) denial when I say ask you which is more useable 236# ft of torque or 138# ft of torque and by a WHOPPING 71% !!??

    Horsepower

    Torque

    link title
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    interesting comments here. comparing one car without the electric motor, one without the turbo and DI...hilarious.

    since both the cars are sold with said things, you cant do anything BUT compare what they feature.

    and even though the prius does technically make more torque from its electric motor, guys it craps out under 2000 rpm. thats not usable in the least. hence why even the new prius is virtually slower than a tdi from a stop a roll, or whatever.

    a powerful prius! lol! this is hilarious.

    honestly, while the prius may do better from a mpg standpoint, it:

    1. cant hold a candle to the interior of the VW golf tdi (few cars, if any, in that class or aclass above can.)

    2. will never match the acceleration or driving dynamics

    3. and will never take an understated stance towards its fuel economy abilities like the golf tdi does. (unless you are looking for a badge, its hard to tell the regular golf and tdi apart.)

    and while the new prius is a 'nice' car (in the same way a camry is a 'nice' car) you will never have that solid hewn from metal tuetonic feeling only possible in a german branded car. if that matters not to you thats cool, but to those who know what i'm talking about it makes all the world of difference.

    i cant wait to take the new golf tdi for a spin. its defintely on my short list.

    2 different cars, similar mission, and one does it in the style that i prefer, with as little consequence to the driving experience as possible.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."comparing one car without the electric motor"...

    Ah.... no. The Zero to 60 times for the Camry Hybrid of 8.4 seconds was with the electric motors fully functioning !!?? The scenario was a "fire for effect" to see if the one doing the communicating really meant what was implied. Thank fully he corrected or better stated himself.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Indeed you are in (written) denial when I say ask you which is more useable 236# ft of torque or 138# ft of torque and by a WHOPPING 71% !!?

    Since you refuse to consider the total output of the Prius' powertrain, I would say it is you who is in denial, written and otherwise.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Great. I am glad you are in agreement that it is silly to compare specs on these cars (Golf TDI and Prius) while considering only a portion of their powertrains. So from now on, please mention total system output when referring to both cars' horsepower and torque.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    and even though the prius does technically make more torque from its electric motor, guys it craps out under 2000 rpm. thats not usable in the least.

    Almost all of my driving is done under 2000 rpms on my Rabbit.

    and will never take an understated stance towards its fuel economy abilities like the golf tdi does.


    Since the Prius clearly tops the Golf TDI in fuel economy (see earlier posts with graphs), what "stance" the Prius takes to FE is irrelevant. The FACT is the Prius has higher FE, and especially in the city, which is important to city dwellers like me.

    you will never have that solid hewn from metal tuetonic feeling only possible in a german branded car.


    Yep, pretty solid. I do hope however that VW has done a better job in the new Golf in the squeaks/rattles/wind whistles department. I did get two rattles finally fixed in my Rabbit, but a loud wind whistle from the passenger door has defied repair up to now. I have to take it in soon and see if the dealer can fix it for good this time.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "...Since you refuse to consider the total output of the Prius' powertrain, I would say it is you who is in denial, written and otherwise. "...

    No it would appear you are still clueless after me posting the linked articles on hp/torque and the "inter related ness". Very simply ,I know what it means when the electric motor is good from 0 to 1,500 rpms and with up to 193 # ft of torque in the hybrid motivation context. I perceive you want it to appear to be something it is not, never designed to do, etc. But really that is ok. Just as long as you are happy with your choice of vehicle. I certainly remain so.

    On the other hand there is the Tesla with the Zero to 60 in what 5 seconds? This of course is a WAY different design and the range is WAY low.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's steer away from the personal edge that continually crops up here. Please restrict your comments to the vehicles and not each other please
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    Almost all of my driving is done under 2000 rpms on my Rabbit

    really? you can never appreciate that meaty torque peak! at any rate, you could also argue that the tdi's super low torque output is just as effective. the torque curve on the prius is so narrow, that its ability to rocket you forward means nothing to someone who drives in the city slowly under 2000 rpms .(or at least shifts before then?)

    at any rate, regardless of torque, the tdi flat out accelrates faster to 30, to 60, to anything, than a prius does. there is no refuting that.

    Since the Prius clearly tops the Golf TDI in fuel economy (see earlier posts with graphs), what "stance" the Prius takes to FE is irrelevant. The FACT is the Prius has higher FE, and especially in the city, which is important to city dwellers like me.

    i dont mind the way the prius look, i'm just saying that the prius would probably not be as successful as it is if it didn't wear its 'greeness' on its sleeve. i think choosing a car that says i car about the environment/saving gas/what have you etc in a very subtle way is far classier than one that says 'look at me i'm green!'. how many hybrid badges are on the prius anyway? lol. at any rate, that part of the german car appeal, understated elegance. the prius doesn't have any. the tdi does.

    i'm a bigger highway driver than you backy, and diesels, while they do fine in the city, seem to make more sense for highway cruisers. and i also care about driving dynamics, and most hybrids are withouthem. the prius is totally devoid of steering feel, has poor body roll control, and is less involving than a lexus to drive.

    sure hybrid owners may not care about vehicle dynamics, but VW realizes that saving gas and getting good fuel economy doesn't mean you have to sacrifice being a car enthusiast.

    Yep, pretty solid. I do hope however that VW has done a better job in the new Golf in the squeaks/rattles/wind whistles department. I did get two rattles finally fixed in my Rabbit, but a loud wind whistle from the passenger door has defied repair up to now. I have to take it in soon and see if the dealer can fix it for good this time

    my bunny kinda had some squeaks now and then, but all subsided/were not that bad to merit a trip to the dealer. i'd take the solidity and quietness of that cabin over my fit anyday.

    from what i have read, the new mkVi is even quiter, with an even greater attention to detail.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    "You have pointed out the fallacy of the EPA fuel economy ratings. Many of US including VW corporate have complained that the new calculations are very accurate for the hybrids and out in left field for the diesel cars. As your little exercise graphically points out. The average VW Jetta TDI owner gets about 19% better overall mileage than the EPA estimates. While the Prius is within 3% of the EPA rating."

    I agree and actually I don't care for these "two number" tests whether EPA, Euro or anyone else. In fact, I cited the user reported MPG.

    Personally, I prefer to see "mph vs MPG" charts because they let us choose the best cruise speeds versus just banging our wallets against the fuel pumps:
    image

    You'll notice the 1.5L Prius have a distinct 'knee in the curve' at 65 mph. Anything faster and their mileage soon drops off. Also, the 1.3L Honda Insight has a pretty steep slope. They really need to stay on the low side of 65 mph or their mileage tanks.

    This is the type of performance data that should be in the owner's handbook for every car. For example, manual transmission cars often have distinct upper and lower speed ranges but unless someone spends a lot of time taking measurements, this is invisible to the owner ... yet I suspect the manufacturers have this data already.

    BTW, if someone likes the creature comforts and non-fuel economy features of their ride and they can afford it ... more power to them. By the same token, folks need to realize that my "green" need is the money I keep instead of burning up. To each their own and that is the beauty of freedom.

    Bob Wilson
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "Great. I am glad you are in agreement that it is silly to compare specs on these cars (Golf TDI and Prius) while considering only a portion of their powertrains. So from now on, please mention total system output when referring to both cars' horsepower and torque. "...

    Well I am glad you caught the effect of the 193 # ft electrical motor in the Camry Hybrid zero to 60 second time of 8.4 seconds vs the TDI Zero to 60 time of 8.9 seconds !! I can't even imagine what the E/T would be (probably much LONGER) without that massive electric motor that is good from 0-1500 rpms. In addition, the Camry Hybrid sports a 2.4 L motor vs the TDI's smaller 2.0 L.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Has anybody hit a local VW dealer for the scuttle butt on when the new GTD will hit the show rooms?
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    The last I heard was that the GTD wasn't coming to the US because it didn't meet US emission standards.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    i dont mind the way the prius look, i'm just saying that the prius would probably not be as successful as it is if it didn't wear its 'greeness' on its sleeve.

    And maybe the Golf would not be as successful if it didn't wear it's Germanic influence on its sleeve? ;)

    How does the solidity of your (former) Rabbit's cabin compare to that of the 2010 Prius?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well I am glad you caught the effect of the 193 # ft electrical motor in the Camry Hybrid zero to 60 second time of 8.4 seconds vs the TDI Zero to 60 time of 8.9 seconds !!

    Uh... yes. I mentioned the effect of the Prius' electric motors many posts ago and tried multiple times to have you acknowledge that they impact the performance of the car. As I said, I'm glad we can move past that little speedbump now. I'm not sure we can, though, 'cause you keep making statements like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T would be (probably much LONGER) without that massive electric motor that is good from 0-1500 rpms." So while you acknowledge now the contribution to overall performance of the electric motors, you keep treating them as if they are something separate from the car. You would probably laugh if I said something like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T for the TDI would be (probably much LONGER) without that turbocharger that is good only under some driving situations."
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It started with your post #465 where YOU separated it out ! In effect you tried to say you add the torque together through the band width 138# ft with 193 # ft or 331 # ft. So it is pretty obvious when the electric motor kicks in is the time the gasser engine is off which helps to give the higher mpg ratings. The percentage difference is easy to see by looking up the Camry mpg figures (sans hybrid) I finally had to give you the real world Zero to 60 times to get you to focus. So let's move on.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You have a short memory. Go back to your post #401 (emphasis mine):

    Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft.

    There, and in several posts after that, you separated out the electric motor components of the Hybrid Synergy Drive and compared the output of the TDI to the output (hp and torque) of ONLY the ICE portion of the HSD. You completely ignored a major part of the HSD system. And I was clear in my earlier post that the 199 lb-ft of torque from the electric motors in the TCH was from 0-1500 RPM. So you are misquoting me when you say "in effect you tried to say you add the torque together through the band width".

    If you can prove that the only time the electric motors "kick in" for the Prius is when the gas engine is off, as you stated, please do. But I don't think you can because that's not how HSD works. Under hard acceleration, for example, both the gas engine and electric motors will contribute. Just like on a TDI, under hard acceleration the motor will be churning and the turbo will be spinning fast.

    Now that I have corrected your misstatements, let's move on.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft. "...

    Sorry guy, the above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid, However lets do move on. And yes, I do know how the hybrid intergrates. The real world measures such as mpgs and zero to 60's times are the arbiters. The hybrid system really dont do much in the band width that is most important to me: 45 mph to 100 + mph (above 1,500 rpms) .

    Since the Prius fits your needs, that is what you care about anyway.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sorry guy, the above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid,

    With one little change: The above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid if you ignore the fact that it is a gas/electric hybrid.

    45 to 100+ mph, eh? Well, I see you and I are in a TOTALLY different world.

    "Through Truth to Freedom"
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "45 to 100+ mph, eh? Well, I see you and I are in a TOTALLY different world. "

    It would appear so. However starting @ 45 mph is pretty much the real world in this area. I notice Prius'es in that envelope. It is a tad bit hard to get mpg figures from Prius folks that operate in that envelope, as it appears a sizeable majority want to claim (king/queen of the hill dibs) 50 mpg or more, whether they do or not. I just really want an honest discusssion. To follow the "Toyota Prius Real World Numbers" mpg discussion, it would appear the majority is driving 55 mph or less to try to fight for the dibs and taking up hyper miling up as a serious hobby. It seems a few that report less than that are seen as less than worthy. WAY too much mental energy for not much gain.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Since you haven't driven the Gen 3 Prius yet, nor the Golf TDI, how do you know that the Golf beats the Prius in wind, snow, ice, and mountains? I can see the mountains. But wind, snow, and ice? A lot of that has to do with tire grip and effectiveness of brakes and ESC.

    There are numerous complaints by Prius owners getting stuck because of the traction control on the Prius. As far as I know Toyota has not put a switch to disable that feature for driving in snow or on ice. The VWs have a switch to disable all the electronic gadgetry that takes control of the vehicle away from the driver. I prefer it that way.

    Toyota is unable to modify the troublesome Prius traction control system without placing the vehicle's sophisticated hybrid drive system in jeopardy, according to a Toyota service technician familiar with the Prius problem.

    In a mountainous or snowy areas, the little car can be more than just difficult, Prius owners complain.

    "I live in the mountains, up steep hills and dirt roads. I consider the slippage problem with the shutting down of power to the wheels just when you need more not less traction to be a very serious problem and a potentially life-threatening design flaw," a New England Prius owner told ConsumerAffairs.com.


    Again, the Prius is fine as a flat city car. Anything beyond that the Golf TDI will outshine the Prius.
  • eldaino2eldaino2 Member Posts: 34
    And maybe the Golf would not be as successful if it didn't wear it's Germanic influence on its sleeve?

    How does the solidity of your (former) Rabbit's cabin compare to that of the 2010 Prius


    lol! true i guess. granted its probably difficult to 'wear' something as understated than that, but thanks for the laugh. :)

    while i didnt absolutely HATE the new priuses interior, the quality of the swithchgear, surface textures and driving position all felt below that of my rabbit. def. better than the least gen prius, but still nothing to write home about. it looks cooler than it feels.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There is another point of view also. See for example:

    I think I can understand both points of view. I just experienced my first real snow fall with the Prius. Portland just received 10 inches of snowfall overnight. Unfortunately, the city does not aggressively plow/salt the roads here. The local DOT posted a chains required warning for the entire city. As I do have to report to work tomorrow, I decided to test the conditions in the neighborhood. After shoveling out my driveway, the Prius(2007 touring) hit the streets. I was very impressed. The VSC system is very aggressive. I found that it under a great majority of conditions, it kept the car moving with exceptional stability. All of my previous cars(front wheel drive) tended to pull to one side. The VSC system(yellow light blinking constantly) kept it very steady. I did run into the power cut off phenomenon several times. Essentially, if the car has no traction it will not spin the wheels. This happened when I ran the car in 6-8 inches of unplowed snow. It was somewhat disconcerting, but I do believe that any other(similarly sized, fwd) car would have just been stuck spinning the wheels. Both times this happened, I was able to quickly remedy the problem by gently reversing and approaching from a slightly different angle. It actually is quite adept and doing the most with the least traction available. ( As some of you have pointed out, the Prius probably has less weight over the front wheels than most cars.)
    The Prius does not give you the traction of four wheel drive and you should probably put chains on in severe conditions. If I had the option of driving a 4x4 Duramax in really bad weather, I would. (Sadly I don't) However, I am very impressed with the VSC system. Having experienced midwest and east coast winters all my life, I think this system makes you look good. For example, I am used to building up some speed to make turns with heavy snow buildup. In my older cars, this maneuver would give me some serious "fishtailing". This is essentially eliminated with the Prius. This is without a doubt, the best car I have ever owned for snow driving. (Previous contenders SAAB 900(92-98), VW GTI(99-07))


    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1212ea/39#MSG39

    Would I want to own a Prius if I lived in an area with steep hills or mountains, with snow/ice? No. I wouldn't own any 2WD vehicle in that kind of environment. I'd go with an AWD vehicle. And probably put winter tires on it in winter.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Regarding envelopes... what's your FE at 100 mph in your VW turbodiesel? I thought you'd track that because you have reported your FE here and in other sites.

    As for me, my goal is to do 45 to 100 also--but in mpg. I know 100 mpg is not achievable now under normal circumstances, even in a Prius, but I am confident I could average well over 50 in a Prius, with a big bias towards in-town driving. And maybe by the time I am ready to buy my next car, the plug-in Prius with lithium ion batteries will be available, and that 100 mpg will be closer to reality.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would not hold my breath for Toyota to offer a Plug-in hybrid. Having followed your posts for many years you do a lot of looking and testing before buying. You end up getting the most bang for your buck. I don't think the Prius will ever be the most bang for the buck. I really doubt the Golf TDI will be either. Too many options from Hyundai and Mazda. Every vehicle is a compromise. I have NEVER owned a vehicle that I was totally satisfied with. Well maybe my 1984 full sized Bronco. I loved that vehicle and hated to sell it.
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    Other than me, Is everyone in here employed by either Toyota or Volkswagen? You all are amazingly resiliant with your opinions. There hasn't been a single day in the past 2 months that this thread wasn't full with new posts. Entertaining if nothing else. Time consuming is another word that comes to mind...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just got an email with the pricing on the 2010 Golf.
    Trim Engine Transmission MSRP**
    Golf 2-door 2.5L 170 hp Five-speed manual $ 17,490
    Golf 2-door 2.5L 170 hp Six-speed automatic with Tiptronic® $ 18,590
    Golf 4-door 2.5L 170 hp Six-speed automatic with Tiptronic® $ 19,190
    Golf 2-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed manual $ 22,189
    Golf 2-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed automatic DSG® with Tiptronic® $ 23,289
    Golf 4-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed manual $ 22,789
    Golf 4-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed automatic DSG® with Tiptronic® $ 23,889
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Plus $700 destination on those prices, correct? If so, that puts the 4-door automatic TDI at $24,589. Even the base Golf 2.5 is now over $18k. I am even more glad I got my Certified 2007 Rabbit 6AT this spring for $11k + T&L. With prices like those, my car might actually go up in value. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sounds like you made a good buy. The Golf TDI price is about what people were getting a loaded Sportwagen TDI for a few months back. As a comparison, the largest inventory of 2010 Prius in San Diego are priced from $25,980 to $33,400. Most of the inventory is over $31k. Makes the Golf TDI a better buy. Yes you have to add $700 Destination charge on the VW. If they bring in a decent supply the prices will drop.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd wait for the lower-priced Prius before I'd pay $26k plus for one. I don't need all the extra equipment, and I'm not in any hurry. Maybe selection will be better in MN than in Prius-crazy CA.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I would not hold my breath for Toyota to offer a Plug-in hybrid.

    No need to...

    Toyota will unveil its long anticipated plug-in hybrid Prius at the Frankfurt Motor Show. In early 2010, over 500 Prius PHEVs will be leased to fleet customers in Japan, the United States, and Europe. These pre-production cars will let Toyota evaluate their performance in a real-world environment before full-scale production starts. Retail sales are planned for 2012.


    http://www.greencar.com/articles/toyota-unveil-lithium-ion-powered-prius-plug-hy- brid.php

    And here's the report from Frankfurt:
    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/21/frankfurt-2009-2010-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybr- id-cant-get-any-g/

    Since I will be buying my next car in late 2012, then replace our minivan in 2013, this is great timing for me. I'll probably wait for the minivan replacement to go for the Prius. Maybe a Golf in 2012, depending on how my Rabbit holds up before then. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Seeing is believing. The PHEV Prius were supposed to be out in late 2008 on the market. They had test models in 2006. I don't think Li-Ion is ready for mainstream yet.

    Just how new is Toyota's plug-in Prius? Maybe older than we think
    This Friday, Toyota will deliver two plug-in Priuses to UC Davis for testing purposes. We've known about Toyota's PHEV Prius plan for a while now (the official announcement came back in July), but one of our clever readers, Joseph, submitted a tip that explains that perhaps the plug-in Prius has been in the works for six months, maybe even a year, before the July public acknowledgment. I'll let him explain:

    The PHEV Prius prototypes from Toyota were revealed on July 25, 2007.


    http://green.autoblog.com/2007/11/07/just-how-new-is-toyotas-plug-in-prius-maybe- -older-than-we-thin/
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another thing to think about. The Tax credit for EV or PHEV is based on the capacity of the battery. Volt was designed to get the maximum credit or maybe the other way around. The Prius PHEV will have less than a third the capacity of the Volt making the tax credit much less. Of course the batteries will also be less.

    The PHEV Prius can operate in electric-only mode for about 12 miles at speeds up to 60 mph or so. This is about seven miles more than the current non-PHEV Prius. Apparently, this battery capacity was sized for European rather than American commuting habits. According to Toyota’s research, in the UK about 80 percent of trips are less than 6 miles and in France this number is 15 miles. For American commuters, the typically used all-electric commuting number is a much more demanding 40 miles, which is the all-electric capability of the Chevrolet Volt.

    The Senate bill would give buyers a base-line credit of $2,500 for buying a vehicle powered by a 4-kilowatt hour battery. An additional $417 would be added for each KWh of battery power beyond that up to a total limit of $7,500.

    http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/24/autos/plug-in_tax_credit/index.htm?section=money- _autos
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