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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    From the Fuel Sipper Smackdown
    The Conclusion
    The big news is that the 2010 Toyota Prius (base price $22,000) secures a straight sweep by achieving essentially the same fuel economy regardless of driving environment. Conventional wisdom used to be that the Prius was good for city dwellers and that frequent road trippers should look elsewhere. These results would prove otherwise, and the new Prius proved to be a better long-distance car than before, with a bit more power and a more comfortable cabin.

    The 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI ($22,270) proved the promise of clean diesel technology. While not delivering the best gas mileage or the lowest price, the Jetta is better equipped than the hybrids' base models and feels the most like a normal car. With fewer costly technologies onboard, there are also fewer costly technologies to fix or replace in the long term. Of course, the fluctuating cost of diesel fuel is something to consider


    This was the Jetta that was tested, the Golf TDI will arrive on your shores in the near future and it is next generation platform compared to 2009 Jetta.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ok I will spare you my colorful language about cars but at least my colorful language is not directed towards people.

    I never said all BMWs were unreliable? Those were my own personal experiences with my very own car I guess you were a bit confused. :confuse:

    So here's the colorless facts:

    The Prius has stronger reliability ratings than a VW TDI. "Better than average VW TDI results" does not equate to Prius reliability. In fact there is not a single VW that has the reliability of a Prius. Not one! Overall VWs are ranked among the last in most reliability surveys.Those are the facts.

    Oh and by the way if you find everybody's experiences with their own cars useless than why are you here? My suggestion is that you focus on CR and JD Power surveys and then who knows by next week you will have a Prius in your garage. :P

    Anyways you do sound like a very happy person and I salute you for your love of diesels. My car love is directed towards my amazing 2010 Prius and I am incredibly ecstatic(pardon my colorful language).

    At least we are two happy people. What's there to argue about. ;)

    And please pardon those colorful icons above.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    When you state that Prius has better reliability than TDI, what is the difference in reliability?

    Will the Prius have 1 problem per 100 vehicles and the TDI have 1.00000000000001 problem per 100 vehicles?

    I'm not a CR subscriber and circles that are half full or half empty don't mean much to me in terms of data.

    Buick (Buick and Jaguar tied for No. 1 in 2009 JD Power vehicle dependability) is rated higher in reliability than Toyota, yet that would not be sufficient reason to buy a Buick or Jaguar.

    My point is this, the gap between 1st and last for reliability has diminished so greatly in recent years that there is a statistically small difference in reliability. Buy the vehicle that meets your needs and makes you happy.

    VW has higher predicted residual value than Toyota as a brand. Both TDI and Prius are among the highest predicted retained values as individual models.

    Prius obtains better mpg than TDI. That is understood.

    TDI is much more comfortable and fun to drive than Prius IMO.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I for one am looking forward to the roll out of the GTD either the 2010/2011. Initial indications are @ $18,000. Till that time the only thing that is close and might be off topic is the 2009 Jetta TDI. While we get 39-45 mpg, that has been in break in mode .

    In some respects the engines (Prius/TDI) are not in the ball park. As such, the reality is more like comparing mpg. That being true a more apples to apples comparison is a Camry/Accord V6 # ft @ 254 19/29/22 against the 2009 Jetta TDI 2.0, # ft of torque @ 236 29/40/ 37.

    When I got the 2003 Jetta TDI, I actually looked at both the 2003 Prius and 2004 Civic hybrid. Fuel mileage was better @35/44/42 03 TDI, although my ranges have been 48-52 vs 03 Prius of 42/41/41. I got neither hybrid as they would NOT deal at all. In fact in terms of price the real competition is the Toyota Corolla/Honda Civic.

    Looking forward the anomalies continue to exist in the the 2010/2010 Golf TDI will be the sports version (GTI) vs the 2010 Prius which is not even in the same league as the Camry V6.

    I am glad to see however that Prius after many years of good advertising about 50 mpg is actually getting 50 mpg. Seems there were a fair number of very dissatisfied Prius owners. But with the new "cooked" EPA numbers which favor the Prius and improvements to the current model Prius there is less rancor within the Prius ranks.

    Incidently the 2009 (less than 9k) , 2003 (121k) Jetta TDI's have been literally flawless as has been the 2004 (90k) Honda Civic, we got in lieu of either the Prius, Civic hybrid. However I am guessing that will not go unvilified. ;)
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Well... I for one do not have a "chip" on my shoulder because of the issues if had with VWs and Audis. It is a shame the such a nicely made vehicle (their interiors are among the best in the business) can have so many issues. I certainly would consider one down the road when I have seen that their reliability has improved. For now, I'll keep away.

    On a lighter note, I just passed the 70,000 mile mark on my 2004 Prius and I just averaged 51.3 on the most recent tankful of gas. I can't think too far ahead but it looks as though a new Prius (2015 model) may be in my driveway :confuse:

    Dewey.. so sorry to hear that you've had problems with your Bimmer. I know they can be quite expensive to repair. That is why you can get a 3 yr old 7 series for less than half of what it was priced when new. My friend recently sold his six year old 3 series because of the thousands in maintenance he was spending on a low mileage out of warranty vehicle. He ended up buying a Camry. :surprise:

    I still love the fact that I can glide in traffic without my engine idling. These days I seem to be doing lots of city driving and the TDI would never get the type of mileage I get in the city. Oh.. anyone hear that there is only a 13 day supply of the new 2010 Prius? They can't keep 'em on the ground... talk about selling like hotcakes!!! Whew!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    anyone hear that there is only a 13 day supply of the new 2010 Prius? They can't keep 'em on the ground... talk about selling like hotcakes!!! Whew!!

    Seems like a lot to me with the C4C program emptying the Ford lots of Escapes, Focus and Fusions. There are a lot more 2010 Prius available in San Diego than VW TDIs. The TDIs pretty much sell off of the truck. Can't wait to test drive the Golf TDI. If there is any clunker cash left I may trade in my Ranger on one. Only car I would consider at this time. Don't need it, just be handy for running errands. Diesel still cheaper here than RUG. RUG $2.99 D2 $2.89.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Get back to me in the winter when diesel will be going up again. Last year the price difference was quite large (almost 80cents more per gallon). OUCH!!! There are so few TDIs that it is no surprise that they're being snatched up quickly. They are a very rare thing to see on this side of the country (right coast). I wonder if that's because they're on the lifts in the repair department :P

    RE: Running errands in a brand new diesel? Makes no sense. Keep the Ranger or buy a Ford Focus. Cheaper in the long run.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is no car with a 4 cylinder gas engine I would consider. I hate driving up our long Interstate grade with the engine screaming to keep up with the 75 MPH traffic. I love taking drives in the country on back winding roads. That is where diesel engines really shine. That low end torque makes driving a pleasure. You have to experience it to understand. The only reason I am considering getting rid of the Ranger is the V6 is so under powered. I would have traded it on a new V6 Ranger if the CARS allowed it.

    The reliability failures of the VW does not ring true to me. I owned a VW Passat Wagon TDI for over a year and the only warranty work was a broken gas cover. That was done by a gas station attendant in Oregon the day I bought it. And the San Diego VW dealer replaced it under warranty. In 13 months the only other trips to the dealer was for oil change. That was less on the TDI than for my Toyota. I really liked driving that Passat. If it had a couple more inches of ground clearance I would have kept it. Of course it helped that I made $3000 over what I paid the year before selling it. I could have sold a dozen of them at that price.

    I am glad you like your Prius. It is probably ok for in town driving. Just not what I would enjoy. And the Focus even less. If you ever get a chance to drive a Golf TDI out in the country on a winding road, you will understand what I am saying. Cars should be more than just an appliance. Sadly that is about all I see on the dealers lots anymore.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I wonder if that's because they're on the lifts in the repair department :P

    First service is at 10,000 miles and maintenance is free for 3/36.

    TDI vs. Prius
    quote- While the hybrid won the fuel efficiency stakes, the diesel was the drivers' favorite for its abundant torque and sportier handling. The Prius has never been remotely sporty, whereas the Jetta is known as a sort of junior BMW 3-Series.

    The Jetta zipped up twisty hills that the Prius's Hybrid Synergy Drive struggled with, while drivers behind the Prius seethed as its pilot struggled to keep her car out of "Power Mode," which sucks more fuel.

    So there you have it: Sometimes higher fuel economy comes at the expense of driving quality-end quote

    I prefer a "drivers favorite" TDI and will let someone else drive the "never been remotely sporty" Prius.

    Golf TDI is evern more fun to drive than the Jetta. Very excited for it to arrive.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Handling and braking trump mileage any day of the week for me. Getting high mileage and great handling is a win win for the Golf TDI.

    We sample the Golf VI diesel before it comes to America.

    BY ERIK JOHNSON
    July 2009

    You bet we love diesels. Modern diesels are clean, have gobs of ground-pounding torque, and get fuel mileage that shames pretty much any comparably sized gas-fired engine. So when we were given the opportunity to get behind the wheel of a Golf VI TDI in Italy before it goes on sale in America, we jumped at the chance. (Volkswagen loves diesels, too. The lower price of the fuel this year combined with the public’s desire to get more bang for its fuel buck has U.S. VW oil-burner sales soaring. Last month, diesel fueled some 26 percent of all Volkswagens sold, including 81 percent of Jetta SportWagen sales.)

    The Golf is offered with several diesel engines in Europe—the top spec is the hot, GTI-inspired GTD—but the U.S. will get just one: a 140-hp, 2.0-liter turbo four-banger putting out 236 lb-ft of torque.

    The steering was a tad light, but it was fantastically accurate. The firm suspension could get a bit harsh over broken pavement, but it also kept the car flat in corners and, combined with the steering, made quick work of the twisted Umbrian roads that connect Florence and Rome. Traversing the autostrada at triple digits was similarly drama-free.


    Since Honda dumped the S2000, I cannot think of a Japanese car that is fun to drive. Ok maybe a few. None with Toyota or Honda on the nameplate.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Nice torque!!! Great for zipping around traffic. How is the NVH? That would annoy me if it was too much at idle (city driving low RPM). Does it turn off at lights? Nah.. didn't think so. I bet if it did it would rival the Prius in city mileage numbers. So what are the forecasted sales numbers? A few thousand a month for all 50 states? VW doesn't seem to be advertising it much except for the dumb lame commercial about 2 or 3 months ago. Remember that one with the guy who had the Prius? It made me think of the dumb I'm a PC commercial. Final thought... get the Fusion hybrid. You'll get a nice tax credit and you'll be buying American with Toyota technology :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    First off I do not zip around in traffic if I can avoid it. My driving would be less than 20% city driving. I live 32 highway miles from downtown San Diego. I had a 2005 GMC hybrid with auto stop. Made no difference in mileage. It was a real pain in some driving situations like taking off on a hill after stopping. Even with light acceleration you would get wheel spin, which was dangerous on wet pavement. IMO, auto-stop without full electric drive type hybrids is not a good system. Why not a Fusion Hybrid? I have a full size LS400 that is still perfectly fine for hauling people to dinner etc. It is now 20 years old and in great condition. No need for another large vehicle. My major complaint with hybrids is the added complexity that may be a real pain 10-15 years down the road.

    I would be completely happy with my Ranger if it had the power to pull my small 3500LB utility trailer home from town. I have my eye on a 1995 Ford F250 Powerstroke in pristine condition. So getting $4500 in trade for the Ranger would be good. I would like a decent SUV with diesel so I could sell my Sequoia gas guzzler. The only ones currently available have that awful urea injection system to satisfy the wonks at CARB. So trading for the Golf TDI would be my car for all the day to day running around. The LS400 for evenings out with friends. I am stuck with the Sequoia for vacations till a better solution comes along.

    Lastly CA gas is horrible for mileage. I lose at least 10% or more with the ethanol tainted crap they sell us. CA by contrast has some of the best diesel on the market. And over a years period it is cheaper than RUG.

    Do I need a new Golf TDI? Not really. It would just be fun to run around in and save a bit of money on fuel. Overall it would cost more than I currently spend for insurance and maintenance on 3 vehicles.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Lastly CA gas is horrible for mileage. I lose at least 10% or more with the ethanol tainted crap they sell us. CA by contrast has some of the best diesel on the market. And over a years period it is cheaper than RUG"...

    Yes your quote has very little traction (reality base) with those that do/can not experience the two side by side, specifically D2. To be fair it pre supposes the RUG to PUG gasser users would approach the diesel side fairly, but indeed by some of the anti diesel comments they either can't, don't, won't approach it fairly, or truly understand and are anti diesel anyway.

    So for the periods PRE Oct 2006, D2 users were literally FORCED to use LSD (by law had to be 500 ppm) and 40 cetane for vehicles designed for ULSD (by law had to be 15 ppm and are normally less @ 5 ppm) and @49/51 cetane.

    But as you say, CA D2 LSD was actually BETTER @140 ppm. So while my 03 Jetta TDI survived intact running a whole less than optimal fuel, and for most of its mileage life it was not (run on optimal fuel) because of the dictates of the EPA and CARB; needless to say the current diesels seem to run very well on ULSD. One spin off is while Prius still run 5,000 mile OCI's running 25,000 to 30,000 miles on ULSD D2 is almost a no brainer. (D2 actually runs much cleaner internally, in the example app up to 6 x cleaner)

    So as it turns out, the D2 fuel USLD @ less than 15 ppm with more normal 5 ppm (off line mitigation is NOT ALLOWED) is actually cleaner than the fuel run by Prius' @ 90 ppm required, and can be off line FEE balanced to 30 ppm if it does not actually measure out to 30 ppm. ) So as a result, a Prius can be running fuel that in reality is up to 18 x dirtier than D2.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    get the Fusion hybrid. You'll get a nice tax credit and you'll be buying American with Toyota technology

    Ford Fusion hybrid is Made in Mexico, not in U.S.A.
    Prius is made in Japan.
    Jetta is made in North America. Golf TDI will be manufactured in Germany.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Global economy sir. However the revenue goes to the shareholders. That's as American as I need it to be. Many GM cars are assembled in Canada too. However if we want GM to succeed we need to buy there cars regardless of where they're assembled.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    If you live 20 miles out of San Diego perhaps you should consider a horse. :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is actually 32 miles to Balboa Park. One of the few places we visit on a regular basis. It is obvious you are a diesel hater. And I do not like the complexity of the hybrids especially the Prius. So we just have to disagree. I like to drive a car that handles and brakes precisely. You just need to get from point A to B with no regard for driving comfort or handling. You are happy with your Prius and I am happy it is in your garage and not mine. The Golf is a far bigger seller than the obscure Prius. Except in places that have no real choices. That would be the USA. You will never find a true driving enthusiast picking the Prius over the Golf GTD. In reality the two are as far apart as a Ferrari and a Yugo.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Prius owner say's "buy American, buy a Ford Fusion Hybrid made in Mexico, then says "revenue goes to shareholders, buy GM".

    Well gosh, GM shareholders were left with nothing of value, even holders of GM secured debt would have a difficult time buying in to your "buy GM' logic.
    At the same time, Prius is built in Japan by a Japanese owned and based corporation.
    Too much hyprocrisy.

    As to Prius vs. Golf TDI, the competitor to Prius would be Golf TDI Bluemotion if mileage is the goal.
    Golf Plus TDI Bluemotion
    VWoA will not offer the Bluemotion versions of Golf in USA, at least not yet.

    Golf TDI will be here by end of the year.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    And truly if MPG a more highly weighed factor then the VW Polo @61 mpg sure beats 48 mpg. In fact that is 27% better mpg.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Looks like the Prius has a price advantage for people looking for a 5-door fuel sipper with an automatic. Prius II is $22,750, Golf TDI 5-door with AT is $24,390. Probably a better comparison though is the Prius III with audio upgrade for $23,750. Close enough that price shouldn't be a big determinant, unless the Prius II's equipment is sufficient (which it is for me).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I will be curious to try the seats they put in the Golf TDI. If they are the same as the 2009 GTI, they are wonderfully comfortable. Something many owners complain about with the Prius. Edmund's shows the Prius IV selling at $26,550. The Prius V with high tech package is going for $33,200. Unless a side by side comparison is made it will be difficult to say which is the most bang for the buck. I don't see an XM or Sirius on the Prius. It is standard on the Golf with 6 months service free. I would NEVER trust Toyota again on that subject as they guaranteed me I could get XM for my Sequoia Limited. After the check was written they found out they were mistaken. So I have a $51,000 car with no XM radio available. Toyota electronics are way behind the industry.

    For those that are happy with a mediocre handling, rough riding noisy car. I say go for the Prius. I'm afraid the wait for a Golf TDI will be longer than the Sportwagen TDI. I am banking on the knee jerk US buyer to steer clear of the TDIs this winter when diesel prices are high. It will make it easier dealing on the Golf TDI.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Prius IV has leather among other things, and the Prius V is fully loaded, with equipment optional or not available on the Golf TDI. Let's compare apples to apples.

    According to Toyota.com, the Prius' sound systems are "XM capable". The XM radio feature is an additional $449 plus monthly fee. So I was incorrect on my previous post--you can get XM on the Prius II, but it's optional. Actually I like that XM or Sirius is not standard--I don't really want it, so I'd rather not pay for it.

    As for mediocre handling... the Gen 2 handled just fine, I thought, and the Gen 3 is supposed to be improved there but I haven't driven it yet. I haven't driven the new Golf yet either but the Rabbit has a nice blend of ride and handling. As for "noisy", I have to disagree on that one. Unless the TDI is quieter than the 2.5, the Prius is the quieter car except maybe at full throttle. And as for rough riding, again I haven't driven the new Prius or the new Golf, but the old Prius isn't any rougher than my Rabbit. Have you driven the new Prius and the new Golf?

    Although I love my Rabbit, what intrigues me most about the Prius is its in-town FE. Most of the miles of the next car I buy will be on short trips in town. The Prius should do very well there; the TDI, not as much. Also I have this fear of the fuel for the TDI gelling up in the winter. Don't laugh. This is a problem in MN where the government, in its Infinite Wisdom, mandated a blend of biodiesel be used. As you probably know, biodiesel and -20F don't mix too well. The state claims they have that problem worked out... we'll see.

    P.S. Aftermarket XM is pretty readily available.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    According to Toyota.com, the Prius' sound systems are "XM capable"

    Unless it was installed and included at the time of sale I would not believe them for a minute. That is exactly what the literature says for the 2007 Sequoia Limited. You can install this $600 unit and it will work through the NAV system. However when you have the rear seat DVD player it will not work. Add to that the CD single disk player is not MP3 and refuses to play a lot of the CDs I have that worked fine in my GMC PU with Bose factory system. Toyota electronics suck. There are things I like about the ride and comfort of my Sequoia. The NAV/Radio/CD player is not in the positive column. And the dealer says that's the way it is. XM aftermarket will not integrate with built-in NAV.

    I have not seen the new Golf yet? I have spent a quite a bit of time riding around town in a friends 2009 Prius. Compared to my Sequoia it is noisy and rough riding. It is, what it is. A towny car that gets great mileage in town. I recommended it to this guy as his trips were all 3-4 miles on flat land. He is now moved to Hawaii and took it with him. Works great on Maui where the speed limit is max 55. My driving is not conducive to owning a Prius. Just my trip home from Costco would probably drop the mileage into the low 30s. Our stretch of Interstate 8 is steep and posted 70 MPH. With traffic moving 75+. You get behind a slow truck going 35 MPH it takes some beans to go from 35 to 75 MPH in a short space. The Passat TDI which had less HP than the current Jetta TDI had what it took in those driving conditions. 4 Bangers like the Civic struggle up that long grade at 75 MPH.

    When did you get the Rabbit? You had an Elantra you liked very much also. After owning the Passat TDI and test driving the VW gas cars, I had no desire to own one of them. The Torque is where driving pleasure is for me. Pulling up hills on a winding road in the San Diego back country is fun driving for me. I really don't need another vehicle. I would buy the Golf TDI for all our running around and pleasure drives. I still will want a large vehicle for going on road trips more than 100 miles.

    We are going on a 5000 mile round the USA trip the end of September and I dread the gas bill for that Sequoia. Not enough to go buy a diesel SUV that I may not really like. We are going to visit my farm in Long Prairie, MN. I planted much of it in blue spruce trees in 1980 and have not been back there since 1983. I would imagine it is a forest by now. Doing my share to suck up the CO2 put out by my Sequoia. :shades:
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Unless it was installed and included at the time of sale I would not believe them for a minute.

    The "upper" levels of Prius (not sure about the II) are not just XM capable, they have the tuner and antena built in with a free 3 month subscription to XM. That was my concern as my 07 TCH said "capable" as well but you had to buy the tuner. Toyota should have changed the wording in 2010 since it obviously means something different now. You have XM when you drive off the lot
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    My driving is not conducive to owning a Prius. Just my trip home from Costco would probably drop the mileage into the low 30s. Our stretch of Interstate 8 is steep and posted 70 MPH.
    A Prius probably is not the vehicle of choice for someone who's route is all uphill. However, for those that get to turn around and coast downhill occasionally, it works pretty well. I can't imagine getting less than 44 mpg though, not the low 30's.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    No doubt the Prius would get decent mileage on the down hill run to Costco. XM looks to be a dealer installed option on the 2010 Prius according to the Toyota website. I can imagine what they would charge. Of course I would never be able to get past the goofy look of the Prius and the blind spots. I will leave the hybrids to those that like them. Give me a solid diesel vehicle or an EV if they ever become feasible or practical.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just looking at the inventory for one of the largest Toyota dealers in San Diego. They have 16 Prius in stock. Nothing lower than a III model with price at $27,550. The V series are just under $33k. Looks like plenty of choices for the last two days of the clunker program. Though I don't see those prices being a bargain.

    By contrast there is only one Jetta TDI in stock out of the 8 VW dealers in San Diego. Looks like C4C worked for the VW dealers. The 2010 models do not seem to be in stock yet. I expect the Golf TDI to be in short supply even with the economy. The Sportwagen TDI has been out over a year and I have yet to see one on a dealers lot. Always sold when they arrive. You want a VW gasser and the lot is full of them.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Keep in mind the Prius has been redesigned for 2010--just like the Golf has been. So picking on the 2004-9 Prius (like picking on a 2007 Toyota truck) is not really pertinent. The Gen 3 Prius has more power and a tweaked suspension. So before trashing it for lack of power, handling, comfort, and also too much noise, it might be a good idea to drive it.

    I got the 2007 Rabbit in April after my 2005 Jetta was totaled by a no-brain running a red light. I only had the Jetta for 3 months (replaced a 328Ci) but really liked it, it was like new and had six years of warranty on it. :cry: But the Rabbit is an even better car in almost every respect (Jetta had a bit smoother ride). It is plenty torquey for a relatively small gas engine, and gives me over 35 mpg on the highway (upper 20s in town). If I drove more highway miles I would probably consider the TDI in a few years when we retire our last minivan, but I have that nagging concern over our clever state government mandating the biodiesel without considering the implications for MN weather. And the driving pattern that seems to favor a hybrid.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You can't just look at cars on the lot, but need to look at sales volume too. 16 Priuses might be a very short supply, depending on how many are sold in a month across all the dealerships. Also note how the lower-priced IIs are gone--those would be the most popular with cost-conscious C4C buyers looking for the maximum $4500 payout. Maybe there is only one Jetta TDI because they were in short supply to begin with, with the 2010s coming.

    I don't think the upper-trim Priuses are a great bargain. I could buy quite a car for $28-33k. I think the Prius II is very competitively priced, given it has mid-sized interior room and gets better FE than any mid-sized sedan. It has more than enough gizmos for me. I can always stick our TomTom on the dash if I want nav.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't you also have the high ethanol RUG in MN. That is a mileage killer for my gas vehicles. As far as biodiesel and cold. Even D2 will gel at about 20 below. All we ever ran in the Arctic was number one diesel. Same as JetA or kerosene. I imagine they mix D1 in the winter to keep down the gelling. Number one diesel also cuts mileage a bit.

    Seems like nothing is perfect. Glad you are enjoying the Rabbit. Maybe when you retire you will find a warmer climate and biodiesel will not be an issue. B100 is very popular on Maui. All the celebs with diesel VWs and MBs run it exclusively. My first choice biodiesel as it is renewable. On Maui it eliminated the waste cooking oil and grease being dumped into the landfill. A win win that more places should try.

    I may have to test drive the Prius if they give me a chance to run it over my usual route home. Most dealers in San Diego like to go on very short test drives. A quick swing onto the freeway and off at the next ramp and back around to the dealership. None have offered to let me take one out without the salesman. Even the Toyota dealer when he knew I was getting my Sequoia serviced. When I lived in AZ they would just hand you the keys after getting a look at your DL.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In the past at least, some rental companies including Hertz have/had Priuses in their fleet. If they have 2010s that would be a good way to get a complete driving experience with one. I'll probably do that when it gets closer to buy-time. But I know a Master Salesrep for a local Toyota dealership who I am sure will let me take one out for a long drive if I ask. He sold me a 2004 Prius, but Toyota couldn't deliver it when promised so I had to get something else (my Elantra hatch, which my son drives now).
  • marlyecemarlyece Member Posts: 26
    when you look at handling and driving performance there is NO comparison between the Prius and the Jetta/Golf. VW will always win. Interior is better and they are designed better with more cargo space. VW cars aren't ugly like the Prius, in fact the interior and exterior design of VW cars is fantastic. check this out, Edmunds prefers the VW over the Prius: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/a5/2010golfTDI_buyerschecklist.htm . Also, diesel cars tend to last longer...the engines can easily go 500K miles. no question in my mind which is the winner. Nevermind the fact that the Prius is extremely uncomfortable, I can't imagine taking road trips in one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Have you taken a 2010 Prius on a road trip?

    As for ugly... that is totally subjective of course. I like the looks of the Golf and the Prius. To me, the 2010 Prius looks like it's moving even when standing still. It's a totally different look than the more conservative Golf, but I appreciate both of them.

    The cargo volume of the Prius is 22 cubic feet with the rear seat up. What is the cargo volume of the 2010 Golf?
  • marlyecemarlyece Member Posts: 26
    My brother loves his Prius BUT he is not a car guy. A car that sounds virtually silent to me is not natural. I like a car that grabs the road and accelerates with little effort. I was mistaken on the cargo space as I think the Golf only has about 15 cubic feet with the seat up, but it increases to about 47 with the rear seat down. kudos to toyota for that. my bad drawing that comparison, but the Golf feels much roomier and spacious to me for some reason. for the long haul and highway driving the Golf will beat the Prius in mpg. I just think the Prius is little fun to drive. for me, anyway. others will love the silence, i'm sure my mother would. Also, the veedubs hold their value and depreciate far less. take a look at the KBB pricing and then try to find someone selling the same car for less than twice that KBB suggests. this is the reason i'm buying a 2010 TDI Golf instead of a used one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's interesting. Others posting here have stated the Prius is noisier than the Golf TDI.

    The TDI has gobs of torque, but then so does the Prius, especially when accelerating from stop. Overall power wise they are pretty similar also, with the TDI having a slight advantage there. Neither is a racer, but will get you where you need to go with no problem.

    The TDI may seem more spacious to you because it has a taller roof.

    Based on the numbers I've seen, I am not so certain the TDI will beat the Prius in highway mpg, but I'm pretty sure the Prius will top the TDI there in around-town driving.

    In case you haven't noticed, Priuses hold their value well also. I think that will be more the case as gas prices climb, as they will as we dig out of this recession.
  • marlyecemarlyece Member Posts: 26
    really i think toyota offers unparalleled reliability so i don't think you can go wrong with a prius. as far as the fun factor i don't think there is any comparison. both are great cars with amazing amenities. just depends on what the buyer is looking for. i could see gas prices climbing in the near future. supposedly as more people opt for diesel models, the price of diesel should decrease. we'll see how that goes. it's really a crapshoot at best.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I should qualify my noise statement on the Prius. It is when it goes from EV only to engine on there is a shuddering noise that I find unpleasant. Also a screaming engine noise under strong acceleration. What is more unpleasant is the rough ride on our city streets with potholes like a Baghdad war zone. My Passat with 17" wheels and tires was also somewhat rough riding compared to both our Lexus and Sequoia.

    I would imagine the Golf set up with those lousy wide profile tires will ride rough. I am hoping they offer it with 15" or 16" at the most. The price of those replacement tires is also ridiculous.

    I may never find a small car that I can tolerate. I do make allowances when they are fun to drive. Think Porsche. The Golf is many times referred to as a poor man's Porsche. Or can I sneak it into the garage easier than a new Porsche?
  • marlyecemarlyece Member Posts: 26
    well mine is going to cost me around $25K. i don't really consider that poor when the Audi A3 starts around $27K
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Poor being a relative term. You would not get much of a Prius today for $25k. They are topping out locally for over $33k. Maybe now that the clunker program has gone away the prices will get back to normal.

    I would want the Golf TDI with DSG no NAV, Monsoon or Moonroof. The same cloth seats that come in the GTI and 16" wheels and tires. I would probably be willing to part with about $22k for such a vehicle. Maybe a bit more if I really like driving it.

    PS
    If I wanted a blue tooth, I would go to the dentist. :sick:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The new Toyotas that come with the EJ extra ( the JBL sound system ) also have XM/Sirius already installed and operable with a 90 day trial. This option also includes Bluetooth, the 6 CD changer and more speakers. Soon it will also include a USB port in addition to the AUX input.

    In the Prius this begins to be standard equipment with the Prius III ( 1225 ). The Prius II ( 1223 ) has no options and nothing can be added except a few accessories.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    $25000...

    Your choice
    1. Leather and heated seats plus JBL ( see above )
    2. Cloth, JBL and Navigation ( my choice )

    Oh, 50+ mpg City or Highway
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Never again for Toyota NAV. Big waste of money. Not equal to a $100 hand held. In fact my Sequoia NAV has turned me off on OEM units from any maker. I would rather buy one of the latest from Pioneer. The BMW unit I played with had its own issues. No thank you.

    As far as the Prius, it is what it is. 50 MPG is not the most important feature when buying a car. In fact it is probably somewhere down about 6-7 on my list. It will never handle like a VW Golf. And it will never be as comfortable as a large SUV out on the open road.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Nothing against diesels but I do have a bone to pick with VWs. Have you heard that there is an issue with the transmissions in some of the newer models? Yes... it goes into neutral and can cause serious injury or death. That's why I stay away from a company that can build a nice interior but their electronics are crap. Look up the repair incidents on any site and you'll see. Especially look at truedelta as that is a metric contributed to by actual owner's true world experiences. You do seem to contradict yourself as it seems you said you considered the Prius. The complexity issue is a dumb excuse. The DSG transmission has more parts than a regular tranny and adds unneeded complexity to an already lousy car (repair wise that is). The fact remains that the Prius has proven to be extremely reliable and it irks you that you are not part of that group of people enjoying it. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Hope you enjoy paying the premium price on diesel fuel in the winter. Especially if it is a cold winter. Last year there was quite a disparity though now in my part of the country they are on parity. The Prius still seems to be in high demand and the dealers are gouging again. The media doesn't seem to be focusing on diesels because so few Americans want them even though they've cleaned up their act. Yes, diesels will be popular with about .0002% of the US population. LOL!!!
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    I have had a few VWs (late 90's). Seats were HORRIBLE. I'll take my Prius any day over a VW. Interesting how the vocal few here don't have problems like so many other VW owners. VW is a very very minor player in the states compared to Toyota, Honda etc. People want to buy reliable cars and VW just does not deliver and is at the bottom of the basement. For me, I'll use my Prius for commuting and my soon to be delivered Camaro for weekends. It appears now that car manufacturers are either embracing hybrids or EV. There is very little talk about diesels because they won't sell in the volumes needed. Honda was going to bring a diesel over but shelved that. I also think Hyundai was talking about it but no news.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    I'd agree. So many people have bought the Prius that says a lot for the styling. As for the Golf. Can we say boooring!!! It looks like it still is in the 80's!!!! The Jetta looks like a Corolla. No styling whatsoever. Sheeesh!!!
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    To me silence is golden. The diesel vehicles are very noisy and clattery at idle (yeah even the new ones). That's the beauty of my hybrid. When I come to a stop at a light there is total silence except for my music. If I happen to pull up to a light with my window open and there is a diesel next to me, I sure know it. The new ones are much quieter but their ubiquitous clatter is fairly prominent. Way too much NVH at idle too. I test drove one a few years ago and my butt was vibrating even 1/2 hour after the drive. I was also turned off by the maintenance requirements. I've had my Prius for nearly six years and 72000 miles. Bullet proof!!! As to mileage. The Prius will get better mileage than the Golf diesel. That test has been done many times. Let's set the record straight there regarding a previous post on that topic.

    P.S. I sure hope my new Camaro gives me good service like my Prius has. Two different animals though. I got the six and not the 8.
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    Jpeters (prius guy)

    5 posts in a row. Prius's are good cars. We get it. Move along please.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you think the Jetta (and Golf) have "no styling whatsoever", you probably really like the styling of the Aztec. The more the better, right? ;)

    The Jetta is a little old now and will be replaced soon. The Corolla probably wishes it looked like the Jetta. The Golf has smooth and classic styling that has evolved over the years. As I noted, it's much different than the Prius but I find both attractive. The Rabbit/Golf/Rabbit/Golf's styling has held up over time. That tends to happen with cars with simpler lines.
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