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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Kinda funny how you picked an atypical review on the Prius but a "typical" review of the Golf TDI. Not really apples-to-apples, is it?

    Look to the right. Owner opinion of both cars is overwhelmingly positive. And the Prius is close to the Golf TDI in satisfaction despite the braking software problem.

    As for Toyota going downhill the past few years... I agree with that. But consider that VW had no place to go but up on reliability.... or risk going out of business.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I picked a negative view of the Prius, as that was my impression of the Prius I rode around in several times. There were no negatives on the Golf TDI posted.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I suppose with so few Golf TDIs sold to date (only 5 owner reports on Edmunds.com for example vs. 120 reports for the Prius), it will be harder to find a negative report on the Golf TDI. But if you are going to post a "typical" report for the Golf TDI, wouldn't it be more fair to post a "typical" report for the Prius?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Consumer Reports tested and ranked small cars in March 2010 issue.

    Small Hatchbacks/Wagons (22 models reviewed)
    #1 = VW Golf TDI (manual)
    #2 = VW Golf (2.5)

    Small Sedans (20 models reviewed)
    #1 = VW Jetta TDI
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    You just proved my post in your response.

    You'd rather have a nice dinner than a nice drive. Which is why a Prius suits you.

    Others would rather have a nice drive, instead.

    I'm glad you see it my way.

    :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Golf TDI is a giant hit World over. It could explain the difficulty getting one in the USA. Why sell them here when they can sell all they build in the EU for a lot more money. Golf TDI in the UK sells for $25,505 BPs which is $39,909 US dollars. So getting one here for less than $30k is a bargain. Unlike Toyota that will sell at a loss to gain market share, VW does not operate that way. We know Toyota sold 1000s of Prius at a loss to get people interested early on. You have not seen that with any of the VW TDI models. Just a different marketing philosophy.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If CR's rankings are OK for the Golf, then they must be OK for the Prius, right? One of the best cars for reliability new, the best car for reliability used, and #1 in owner satisfaction.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    We know Toyota sold 1000s of Prius at a loss to get people interested early on. You have not seen that with any of the VW TDI models.

    Uh... didn't you just prove exactly the opposite (re TDIs not being sold here at a loss) with the figures you mentioned? :confuse:
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    technically you have a great point backy ! The sample size of usa golf tdis
    is necessarily small so far. Let's hope there will be lots more for 2011 model year.
    Sample size of Priusesesesse is enormous, and people
    aren't liking them so much now that toyota is trying to rectify their intracranial problems.

    There are probably just a few hundred Golf TDI in the USA now?
    Maybe each dealer gets at most two for 2010? The more that
    get here, the safer our roads. Can't say the same for Priuses just now, but they wil be fixed soon, really.
    I figure each Golf TDI's brakes can hold back about 100 Priuses from unintendedly accelerating, if they all drive in a straight line with the Golf TDI in front.
    So with the 300 golf TDI in USA so far, up to 30,000 errant Priuses can be restrained thanks to the evidently superior VW engineering of basic automotive functions such as brakes/shifter/ignition-switch.

    Toyoda-san, please consider to read your customers automotive lips:

    Less PacMan fruit zipping around on the dashboard display.
    Bring more reliability in brake system, diesel engine , manual shifter .

    Tomorrow, I would buy any new Toyota with any manual-shift and diesel engine. Bring it!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yup, you, plus a dozen other people in the US. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Tomorrow, I would buy any new Toyota with any manual-shift and diesel engine. Bring it!

    I would buck the media hype over UA and buy a mid sized Toyota PU with diesel in a heartbeat. Problem is they have not done much with diesel emissions and would probably have to buy from the Germans to get them accepted by the regulators.

    Backy, if Toyota could sell their very fine Tacoma diesel (HiLux) in the USA, I believe it would reach 40% of their Tacoma sales in less than 5 years. They are decent trucks with a V6 gas engine. But horrible gas hogs. They get better usable power with their very fine 4 cylinder diesel engine sold World wide. I don't have the statistics. My guess they don't even bother offering the V6 gasser outside the USA. The Tacoma 4 cylinder gasser is a loser and worthless for anything but very light delivery work on level ground.

    As far as the Golf TDI pricing. I don't think they sell them here at a loss. Other than the exchange rate is poor for selling EU products right now in the USA. My point on the Brits paying $40K for the Golf TDI is how much they think of the vehicle. The Prius does not sell well in the UK for all the obvious reasons. When given a choice the Prius is a non seller. Japan and the USA being the only real markets for the overly complex hybrids. Toyota is now paying the price for all their overly complex DBW systems.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    If CR's rankings are OK for the Golf, then they must be OK for the Prius, right? One of the best cars for reliability new, the best car for reliability used, and #1 in owner satisfaction.

    Your views of Prius being #1, well, it is quite clear that not only has CR revised their views of Toyota and Prius, the general populace ranks Toyota 16th in perceived quality, not #1, and the press is not too favorable either.

    While Toyota quality has been eroding for years and years, Toyota fanatics have kept their blinders on, refusing to acknowledge reality.

    quote Jon Linkov Consumer Reports -First it was floor mats, then accelerator pedals and this week, brakes in models not previously recalled. When will the recalls end for Toyota and will consumers be forgiving?

    "Toyota is really going to have to go the extra step to get people back," says Jon Linkov, Auto Editor for Consumer Reports.

    What was once known as the best-selling vehicle is now known as one of the most recalled. And now Toyota has added more than 400,000 Prius models to that list. -end

    quote-
    A problem Toyota owners will likely face is selling or trading in their vehicle in the next couple of years. Blue Book value is dropping to pennies on the dollar right now.

    Consumer Reports recommends not trying to sell off your Toyota unless you absolutely have to. -end

    Toyota woes follow years of slipping quality

    quote Jeff Bartlett Consumer Reports -
    “Visible problems make you wonder about things you can’t see,” said Jeff Bartlett, deputy online editor for autos at Consumer Reports.-end

    quote-
    Car reviewers have been lowering their marks on Toyota for some time, pointing out little construction flaws such as misaligned dashboards and crooked glove compartments that may have been clues to the larger safety-related issues that have emerged.
    -end

    quote-
    Ranking slips
    Now Toyota ranks 16th in perceived quality, according to CNW’s surveys, behind brands like Mazda, Volkswagen and Volvo, for which quality has not historically been a claim to fame.-end
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You are talking about a point-in-time view. Toyota is at an all-time low in perception right now, obviously. But wrt the 2010 Prius, we are talking about a single issue, a software update, which is already in place and being rolled out.

    Funny how when VW recalls 1.3 million vehicles, as it did not long ago in two separate actions involving the Golf/Rabbit/Jetta, no one blinked an eye. Why? Because it was expected behavior for VW. The reason Toyota's recent issues have gotten so much press is because of their long-time record for reliability. I expect these issues will be a huge "wake up call" for Toyota, and will be the impetus for them to return to their path of rock-solid reliability and quality.

    As for VW and its Golf... they have quite a history to overcome. Not just some recent issues, but many years of sub-par reliability. Who will come out of their funk first? We'll see. It won't take long to update the software on the Prius. Much harder to erase from memory the long history of VW's quality/reliability problems.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    You are talking about a point-in-time view

    Only recently have Toyota's problems become a media issue, however, this point-in-time view is the result of 10 to 15 years of Toyota problems.

    This decline in Toyota quality has been ongoing since at least 2000, if not longer.
    Toyota knew about the problems and would not take action.
    Toyota problems are systemic, there is no reasonable expectation that Prius will be excluded.
    When Toyota had a sludge problem they refused to take action until public outcry became overwhelming.
    When Toyota had a rust problem with Toyota Tacoma frames so bad the trucks were breaking in half, for years Toyota said the rust was normal until NHTSA investigated as a safety issue and finally Toyota extended the warranty. They refused to recall the trucks. This is for 1995 to 2000 Tacoma's, though there is evidence of problems with 2000 and later Tacoma trucks.

    This is not the first recall for a Prius.

    Your "point-in-time" view about Toyota is applicable, and to VW too yet you refuse give up the past and realize that the current reality of reliability and quality is much changed from 10 years and even 5 years ago.
    VW reliability was worse than average with the MkIII Golf, and with the early MKIV Golf. By the end of the MKIV Golf and the start of MKV, VW had corrected it's component reliability problems.

    VW's are reliable. VW is continuing to exert pressure on dealers to modernize their facilities and to improve their customer service in the area of maintenance and repair. VW's dealer network offered an inconsistent experience from dealer to dealer and far too many dealers were horrible.
    While the dealer network is still a work in process, VW is continuing it's efforts to improve dealership quality. I would rank them at average at this point-in-time for customer service and above average for facility quality.

    Golf TDI and Prius are both unique among the overall automotive market and both are recognized as being excellent if not the best in their classes.
    When you buy a TDI or you buy a Prius, you still have to deal with VW and Toyota whether you love them or hate them.

    I'm just glad I don't have to try to schedule service for a Toyota, or sell a Toyota at this point-in-time,
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Toyota problems are systemic, there is no reasonable expectation that Prius will be excluded.

    There is a lot of reason to expect overall strong reliability for the Prius. See for example the reliability scores for the Prius in CR. That is a strong historical record. OTOH, I don't know how you can look at the current software problem and extrapolate that the car will be unreliable in general.

    VWs are reliable.

    Let's look at CR's take on that, since you respect their opinion. Following is from the April 2009 Auto Issue:

    CC: New
    Eos: Below Average
    GTI: Average
    Jetta: Average
    New Beetle: Below Average
    Passat: Below Average
    Rabbit: Above Average
    Routan: New (although the record for the vans made on the same assembly line as the Routan is Much Worse than Average)
    Tiguan: New
    Touareg: Much Worse than Average

    If this is "much changed" from 10 years or even 5 years ago... in which direction did it change?? Only one car, the Rabbit, is Above Average. And considering the Rabbit/Golf are the hatchback versions of the Jetta, basically one vehicle for VW is Average or above. That is good for the Golf/Jetta, but not very good for VW overall.

    In contrast, prior to the UA issue CR ranked all Toyota models at least Above Average with the following exceptions:

    Camry I4 and V6: Average (Hybrid was well above average)
    Land Cruiser: Insufficient data
    Sequoia: Average
    Tundra: Average
    Venza: New

    Eight models, including the Prius and Camry Hybrid, were ranked well above average in reliability.

    So does Toyota have problems now? Sure. But please don't try to re-write history or even current events and try to make a case that VW is suddenly a provider of reliable vehicles in general, or that the Prius is suddenly an unreliable car because of the software issue.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Funny how when VW recalls 1.3 million vehicles, as it did not long ago in two separate actions involving the Golf/Rabbit/Jetta, no one blinked an eye.

    Maybe that is because people are not looking for just a car with great reliability. They are looking at a car with high quality components. Great handling, safety and braking plus super fun to drive. With the Golf TDI you get all that and 50 MPG. Now take the Prius. The only positives it had going for it was high mileage and reliability. Take away the reliability and it does not leave much reason to own one. Count on resale to go in the toilet.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, then, I guess we can drop this whole discussion on reliability, since it's not a big issue. ;)

    And the Prius does have other plusses besides fuel economy and reliability, e.g.:

    * Lots of legroom in back for adults--midsized interior room with compact exterior
    * Low emissions
    * Quiet operation (especially in electric-only mode)
    * Unique styling (a plus for some)
    * Some unique features in this class, e.g. solar panels in roof to power a/c
    * Lots of cargo room

    BTW... you do not get 50 mpg from the Golf TDI, unless you run it on the highway no-stop all the time. In the real world, ala R&T's tests, it's closer to 40 mpg. But the Prius seems fully capable of topping 50 mpg average, even 55, in real-world driving.

    Resale going in the toilet? Yes, if gas goes below $1 a gallon. Don't think that will happen.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    yes, backy, we can drop the reliability discussion - there is no issue - nothing to debate as far as I can see.

    (not counting toyota's recent fiasco, euro cars are not as reliable as GMs or Toyotas. everybody knows this. IMHO, it's boring & old-news.)

    you like the Prius better! Cool. Have fun with one!

    FYI, The best way to get TDI 50mpg is with "suburban" driving, or driving a constant 60 mph on highway.

    Regarding your reported prius advantages, looks like a low batting-average for those.
    - legroom, you don't show there's more legroom than TDI
    - low emissions, you don't show that it's lower than TDI
    - quiet operation, you don't show that it's quieter than TDI
    - solar panels in roof to power the AC? Prius does not have such a thing.
    probably you mean solar panels to power a little fan.
    ok, if that's an advantage for you , maybe you are batting 0.200 ,
    do you consider the pac-man-fruit zipping across the Prius dashboard
    as an advantage too? prius dashboard pac-men are fun entertainment, but that's not a feature
    I want in my cars dashboard, personally.

    As for Prius resale values, don't sweat those - seems like you like your prius so much you obviously won't be selling/trading it! News reports indicate they've only dropped a few percent lower than they would have if Toyota hadn't "temporarily forgotten" the basics of customer-service and automotive engineering.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Re FE, please see my post above re R&T's tests of the Prius and Golf TDI. Their tests found that the highest FE for the TDI was on the freeway--not suburban driving. In fact there was a big difference between suburban and freeway driving. The only scenario in which they could break 50 mpg on the TDI was cruising on the freeway, AC off (in SoCal), 70 mph (55 mph average speed). However, they achieved over 50 mpg with the Prius in every scenario except "canyon carving", in which it got only 40.8 mpg (TDI got 30.9).

    Re legroom, I'll let you look up the specs for yourself since you dispute my assertion. Better yet, just go do a test-sit in both cars and tell us which has more legroom. If you can't do that, I'll do it next month when I go to my local auto show and tell you what I find out. Unless the TDI has a lot more rear legroom than the prior generation, I know how that will turn out.

    Re emissions, I'll let you look up those figures also.

    Re quieter... you have to be joking. Even VW makes a big deal out of the wonderful noise that the TDI makes compared to a hybrid. If you like noise, that is great. Some folks prefer quieter driving.

    Re solar powered moonroof... does the Golf TDI offer that?

    Also, were you aware in some states that hybrids get special permission to use HOV lanes and special parking spaces? I could see that being a big advantage for people who live in those states. I am not aware those benes extend to diesels. Maybe you can tell us if that is the case.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    To rely on R&T or any other car magazine like them for fuel economy figures is dumb. R&T, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend drive all of the vehicles they test as if they were stolen. They make no attempt at driving any of their test subjects to get maximum fuel economy.

    In real world driving, a TDI can get 50+ MPG on the road. I owned an Isuzu I-Mark diesel in the early 80's and when driven judiciously, I was able to get 53-54 MPG on the road and in the low 40's around town.

    I own a 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD and on the highway I get 30 - 31 MPG, again when driven judiciously.

    As to emissions, the Prius and other hybrids from Japan will be using a one way fuel, gasolene. My diesel can use dino diesel or biodiesel without any deleterious effects on performance or fuel economy.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, R&T admitted they did not baby the cars. But they also said they made every effort to treat all the cars the same way. So they didn't baby the Prius and race the TDI, for example. Apples-to-apples, real-world test. I thought it was pretty useful as a comparison. It's not something you or I get a chance to do with cars--compare them in all kinds of driving, in exactly the same conditions.

    What FE have you achieved with the TDI in real-world driving?

    Since biodiesel has the bad habit of gelling in cold weather, I'm not going to depend on it here in Minnesnowta, Land of 10,000 Frozen Lakes.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've posted before. Fellow worker runs B20 from Co-op with no problems in South Dakota.

    The 1/2 inch of extra rear legroom in the Prius is negated by the inch less headroom front and back.

    Noise, you got to be kidding the road noise on the Prius around town is BAD. I have not ridden in the new one on the highway. In stealth mode on a very smooth parking lot the Prius is very quiet. Not a big part of my driving need.

    I think seat comfort speaks for itself. That is one of the biggest complaints on the Prius. I will give the Prius high marks for usable space with the rear seats folded. I have not looked at the 4 door Golf in that configuration.

    I can tell you if and when I ever get to test drive the Golf TDI, if it rides and handles anything like the Prius it will be off my list of errand vehicles.

    As a highway car the Golf TDI will go about an extra 130 miles on a tank of fuel. That is a big plus for me. Though I am now leaning more toward the GREEN CAR OF THE YEAR. The new Audi A3 TDI.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I have driven an older TDI (2003- Jetta Wagon) with manual trans and have gotten 48 to 52 MPG on the road.

    As to biodiesel gelling, only if it is not treated for cold weather. Do not forget that cold like you speak of takes it's toll on batteries too.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So that number is pretty close to the highway figure R&T got on the 2010 TDI. But they also tested both cars in a variety of conditions, which is "real world" for drivers like me who live in large metro areas (except the canyon carving part, since I have no canyons anywhere close by to carve).

    Maybe it's just an issue in MN. Heard a report that our wonderful government mandated a blend that caused gelling. Traction batteries ala Prius get less efficient in cold weather, but they don't "gell" and cause the vehicle to refuse to start or run.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I have driven diesel powered vehicles on and off for a number of years and have never had an issue with fuel gelling, even with biodiesel concentrations as high as 20%.

    If MN had an issue with fuel that gelled, are you sure it was the biodiesel that was the problem? Untreated dino diesel fuel will gell (wax comes out of solution) at about 20 degrees Fahrenheit. MN mandates 5% biodiesel be added and unless the refiner/blender does not treat the fuel, you will get gelling.

    Come to think of it, ethanol reduces the efficiency of gasolene engines significantly more than biodiesel does with diesel engines. There is talk of increasing the ethanol content in gasolene to 15%. Now that is a cornball idea.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited February 2010
    Indeed, anyone interested can do the lookups. Since you were making the assertions, it seemed like you were (almost) interested enough to report the actual data/facts.

    I used to live in California where some # of Prius & other hybrids get the HOV privileges. Personally I think they should be restricted to the stop-and-go non-HOV lanes where they maximize fuel savings and best reduce fuel imports. But unfortunately the goal/achievement of HOV lanes is to cause *more* pollution and *more* fuel consumption.

    I agree that HOV-sticker policy is great for Prius drivers and also great for non-hybrid drivers to become even more annoyed by Prius drivers! Almost as annoyed as they were when they saw me driving solo in my Z28 for years, using the HOV lane with impunity/luck whenever I wanted to get around a traffic jam.

    As far as TDI & 'suburban' driving - maybe I mean 'rural' driving.
    I'm talking lots of cruising at about 40 mph, very few stops, very few lights. With that sort of driving, my TDIs have gotten 10% better mpg than on highway.
    (IMHO such differences in mpg (~45 to ~50 or ~55) are trivial except for their "smug value".)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I did report the facts. You challenged them. Gagrice already has substantiated one of my assertions you challenged (although rear seat legroom is not just a function of the 'knee space" measurement). I have personally looked up (maybe even posted here awhile back) the data on emissions. So I don't feel like doing it again at this time. Feel free if you have the time and inclination. Otherwise it's a baseless challenge, yes?

    Keep in mind probably only a small percentage of drivers drive like you do--almost all cruising at 40 mph, few stops. Who knows what kind of mpg you could get in a Prius with that kind of pattern? In "suburban" driving, R&T averaged over 60 mpg (3 scenarios).
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    don't sweat it, backy. others have already reported the prius has a half inch more leg room in back than Golf TDI - and a bit less headroom. If you have a backseat passenger who needs that half inch, it's advantage-Prius.

    FWIW, I don't usually drive the suburban/rural/40-mph but that's typical "kid shuttling" driving in my locale.
    Usually it's daily highway driving for me, about 100 or 200 miles per day, depending whether I'm driving to work or to ski.

    I've tried to explained why I don't care to get better mpg than TDI's 45 mpg:
    Increasing my personal-vehicle mpg or that of 1M other USA vehicles from ~45 mpg to ~55 mpg is trivial/meaningless/minimal-cost-savings/minimal-reduction-in-fuel-imports. And I don't need any more smugness, I've already got plenty.

    Also the Prius handling and ride quality seemed HORRID the last time I rode in a "Gen 2 Prius". I doubt the 2010s handle much better, but I'll let the Prius experts discuss any suspension/handling changes that have occurred over the various Prius years/gens.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Although it won't matter for you personally, the handling of the 2010 Prius is improved over Gen 2. There's also the Touring trim, introduced late in Gen 2, with larger wheels to help further. One of these days I'll have to check it out. Now might be a good time--probably no waiting on the sales floor. But I'd have to make sure the test car had its software update. :P

    I reiterate though, as a general comment, it's important not to focus on the official measurements when considering interior comfort/room. For example, going by the measurements the rear seat of the Versa isn't all that spacious. But because of the way the driver's seat can be adjusted and good toe space and the height of the rear seat, the legroom in that little car is almost limo-like in back. I haven't sat in the 2010 Prius yet (will do that soon), but the Gen 2 has very good stretch-out room in back for 2 adults (rear is too narrow for 3 adults of any size). I owned a Rabbit, so as I noted, unless there's a really significant improvement in rear seat legroom in the new Golf, the Prius has a big advantage there (and even roomier in rear for 2010 than in Gen 2).
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    thanks for prius suspension/etc info.
    it should be a great time to testdrive a prius
    also, If one were to actually buy a new Prius now, one might become worshipped by hordes of toyota salespeople - similar to "Vaal" from the original star-trek:
    http://martinimadness.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/vaal.jpg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ_TZ2pUctk
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    Well let's start with some facts and data along with with sources:

    "- legroom, you don't show there's more legroom than TDI"

    The specific 'legroom' is rear seat legroom, which you accidently left off:

    "Legroom, rear (in.) 35.4" - Edmunds Insight review of 2009 Jetta TDI
    "Rear Leg Room: 36 in." - Edmunds review Prius 2010

    "- low emissions, you don't show that it's lower than TDI"

    Actually the California Air Resources Board did in their executive report of both the Jetta TDI and 2010 Prius:

    A-014-0657 - Toyota 2010 Prius executive order
    A-007-0271 - Volkswagen Jetta, Jetta Sportwagen diesel, Golf executive order

    "- quiet operation, you don't show that it's quieter than TDI"

    Well there is this Volkwaggen commercial:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXK63kvUi6U

    The title is "Meet the Volkswagens - Jetta TDI Meets Prius". Weird that VW advertises the noise of a Jetta TDI but of course they could be lying.

    "- solar panels in roof to power the AC? Prius does not have such a thing. "

    Actually it has two features:

    1) solar power, cabin air exhaust - an option, it vents the cabin heat on sunny summer days.

    2) remote A/C operation - an option, pressing a remote keyfob turns on the air conditioner to reduce cabin heat as we walk to the car.

    Thank you for posting but the facts and data are different.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Even with all your +++ for the Prius it is still a noisy, numb uncomfortable vehicle to drive. Being fun at a smelly gas pump does not count for much in my book. And yes gas is stinkier than diesel. And more carcinogenic. That is why they have the sealed pump handles for gas and not for diesel.

    I am not sure I would like the Golf TDI. I know from experience I would not have a Prius. Did I mention one of the worst cars on the road for blind spots. Not good in a commuter car with people trying to sneak around the Prius driver that is holding up traffic, hypermiling.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    Ahem, "it is still a noisy" doesn't match the Volkswagen commercial "Meet the Volkswagens - Jetta TDI Meets Prius." As VW claimed, Jetta TDIs are noisy compared to the Prius.

    It really comes down to a question of requirements. The TDI comes up short by metrics important to our buying budget:

    urban mileage
    highway mileage
    quiet operation
    interior space

    I understand "fun car." However, my concept of a fun car is fully electric and spelled TESLA!

    Bob Wilson
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How much experience do you have behind the wheel of a 2010 Prius? Or is your opinion of the 2010 Prius based on second-hand info or experience with earlier designs?

    I got to check out the 2010 Prius when I stopped by my local dealer yesterday to see how my buddy, the Master Sales Rep there, was doing. He's an engineer by training and experience so I always enjoy talking with him, as he knows how cars work including hybrids. I confirmed the rear seat of the 2010 Prius is indeed very comfortable for adults, at least adults of my height (5'10"), with gobs of legroom--much moreso than my departed 2007 Rabbit. (Maybe VW increased rear leg room a lot in the 2010 Golf?) I didn't go for a drive because I came in right before closing and all the base models, which is what I would get were I to buy a Prius, were in a satellite lot.

    Maybe we could stick with discussion of the CARS, and not on the driving habits of individuals? I am sure there are rude drivers to be found no matter what model of car they happen to drive, and hypermiling behavior is not unique to Prius drivers.

    As for carcinogenic effects of fuel, that is off-topic also, but at least get your facts straight, e.g.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/29/health/main520195.shtml

    http://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_234655.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My experience was with a 2009 Prius as a passenger. He has stock tires and you feel and hear every crack and crevice in the sub standard California streets. The engine noise comes about when it kicks in. I was the one that recommended the Prius. So I did not make any negative comments. He seems to like it and that is all that counts. I was always happy to get back in my Lexus or Sequoia. End of story.

    Your two articles do not compare Unleaded gas to diesel. They make vague evaluations with little substantiating evidence. Fact is Unleaded is much more dangerous than diesel.
    Unleaded Gas
    DANGER!
    Extremely Flammable liquid and vapor
    Harmful if swallowed
    Skin Irritant
    May cause eye and respiratory irritation
    Cancer Hazard – Contains material which can
    cause cancer


    The Prius is stuck with Unleaded Regular. Many people run 100% biodiesel in their VW TDI vehicles. Making them more environmentally safe. Unleaded stinks and burns my eyes. I am thankful CA has forced gas stations to put safety nozzles on gas pumps. Nasty stuff.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    So you have no experience at all with the redesigned 2010 Prius? Have you even sat in one? Maybe check it out at your local auto show.

    Did you read the OSHA information I posted, which classifies diesel fuel as a carcinogen? That report did not look like a "vague evaluation" to me. It looked pretty specific. There were many other references I did not post--I could if you insist, or you could easily look them up yourself and we can move on talking about the cars.

    FWIW, diesel fumes stink and burn my eyes.

    Many people run 100% biodiesel in their VW TDI vehicles.

    How many (especially for the 2010 TDI) run on 100% biodiesel, and where is the data from? I have read that VW states that only up to B5 (5% biodiesel) should be used in the 2010 TDI.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Yes I sat in a 2010 Prius. Same cheap seats. Not at all comfortable.

    The EPA report concludes that uncertainties remain about long-term health effects of exposure to diesel exhausts. It said, however, that studies involving both tests on animals and occupational exposure suggest strong evidence of a cancer risk to humans.

    We know gas fumes are carcinogenic. Not just suspected as in Marine Diesel.

    From OSHA link:
    International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) carcinogenic classification: Group 2B, Possibly carcinogenic to humans (Marine diesel fuel) or Group 3, Not classifiable as to carcinogenicity to humans [Distillate (light) diesel fuels].
    That would be number one and two diesel used on the highways.

    There is entirely too much misinformation spread concerning the health risks of diesel. You don't like the smell of diesel. I don't like the smell of unleaded gas. The truth is you will die sooner from smelling gasoline than diesel.

    Which has nothing to do with why I like diesel engines over a bunch of overly complex hybrids. Drivability is the reason. If you have not tried it you cannot possibly understand. You keep questioning my experience with the Prius. When was the last time you drove a VW TDI. Especially with the new DSG transmission.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    I have to question whether you actually sat in a 2010 Prius. The seats have been redesigned. They are not the same as 2004-9, especially in trims with the power lumbar support. For 2010 there's also a driver's height adjustment, which for me at least makes a huge difference in driving position.

    I have not driven a TDI. But I have also not said it's an awful car, without driving it first. I never complained about the ride and handling for example, as I don't have direct experience in those areas. In fact, I think it looks on paper like a very good car. Just not one that meets my needs and driving patterns, based on what I know about it. I don't know why it is that when discussing two cars, one must be hated in order for the other to be liked. :sick:

    As for diesel's impact on health... from what I see in the OSHA report, I would not want to be anywhere close to it. It's no elixir of health, that is for sure.

    Potential symptoms: Irritation of eyes, skin, respiratory tract; dizziness, headache, nausea; chemical pneumonitis (from aspiration of liquid); dry, red skin; irritant contact dermatitis; eye redness, pain.

    Health Effects: Irritation-Eyes---Mild (HE-16); Kidney damage (HE3), Potential lung damage (HE-10); Suspected carcinogen (Marine diesel fuel) (HE2)

    Affected organs: Eyes, skin, kidneys

    Notes:

    1. OSHA does not have a PEL for diesel fuel, but it is designated as an OSHA Select Carcinogen.
    2. Explosive vapor/air mixtures of diesel fuel no. 2 may be formed at temperatures above 52°C.
    3. Some cases of kidney damage from exposure to diesel fuel have been reported.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    So you have not driven any VW TDI and I have not ridden in or driven a 2010 Prius. I cannot even test drive a 2010 Prius because they are grounded due to faulty brakes. You don't like diesel which is fine with me. I don't like gas engines for several reasons. When associated with an overly complex hybrid system they are even less appealing to me. Do I hate them. No I have recommended them to friends that have bought them.

    I am not sure why we are having this debate if you are not willing to test drive a VW TDI. And there is no possible way that Toyota has improved the Prius enough in 2010 to interest me. So that leaves us at an impasse. I got a feeling you will not buy a Prius and I will probably not buy a Golf TDI. For one thing it is not really what I want in a new vehicle.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    There's a fix for the 2010 Prius brake software, so don't let that stop you from a test drive.

    I am not going to test drive a car that I have little chance of buying. I don't have the time, and I don't want to waste time of the VW salesperson. If my local dealer ever offered an open house to test drive the new Golf, I might take advantage of that. Sometimes dealers do that, e.g. when the Fit and 2008 Accord came out, my local Honda dealer had open houses, and my local Hyundai dealer is having an open house for the 2011 Sonata. Great ways to check out a car even if you're not serious about buying one in the foreseeable future.

    As for my buying/leasing a Prius, I think there is actually a decent chance of that happening in the next 2-3 years, or maybe sooner. My local dealer is offering a really good lease with no money down on the Prius now. (That's why I stopped in to talk to my sales rep buddy the other day.) I have a feeling that kind of deal will be around awhile as Toyota rebuilds its reputation. The lease payment plus gas savings would be about the same money per month as my Sonata... and I could sell that and pocket some cash. If that doesn't work, I will be looking at the Prius when the warranty runs out on the Sonata. But who knows what else will be out there in 2-3 years? The Prius will be pretty much the same then (as will the TDI), but some new, interesting models are due out in that timeframe.

    Kind of funny, though, that you are so passionate about two cars that you have no intention of owning. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Kind of funny, though, that you are so passionate about two cars that you have no intention of owning

    I like the VW TDI with DSG. If they offer it in the Tiguan or Amarok it will be very tempting. I don't like low slung cars too hard on my back getting out. That is what I hate about the Lexus. Trucks and SUVs are just more comfortable getting in and out of. I did sit in the GTI while at the VW dealer and really liked the seats. Very Comfy. So maybe the Golf TDI will have the same ones. They are up a bit higher than the Jetta which is too low for my liking. I seriously doubt that I will buy another gas vehicle in this life time. I was not going to when I bought the Sequoia. Nothing with diesel was to my liking and I had just sold my 05 GMC. I regret buying it. Though it is not a bad vehicle just a gutless gas hog. Not enough torque to carry the rig up the highway I drive in high gear. I do not like to hear an engine screaming to keep up with traffic. A vehicle that will not pull the Interstate hills in high gear at 70+ MPH is not something I want. Our Passat TDI would do it and our Mercedes Sprinter would do it. The LS400 will not, same as the Sequoia. NO TORQUE, NO WANT.

    My neighbor has a 99 VW Beetle TDI with 150K and has never had any major work done. He does all his own service. His wife does not like to drive their Sienna. She loves that Beetle.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    Funny you should mention:

    "A vehicle that will not pull the Interstate hills in high gear at 70+ MPH is not something I want."

    The 1.8L Prius climbs a +8% grade very nicely:
    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_2010_810.jpg

    The 2010 Prius works a little better with 89 octane if hill climbing at +80 mph is going to be part of regular driving.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have heard the scream of the little Prius engine on just a slight slope. No Thanks. You can have it. If it has to go above 2000 RPM at 70 MPH up hill it has too little torque.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    from my viewpoint VWs are super reliable, but the JD-powers/etc data used for reliability shows that other/non-euro brands have the edge. So that part's old hat.

    Bob W thanks for posting actually detailed comparisons, however slanted towards the darling Prius. Maybe i'll compare highway dB/etc figures for the Prius. Also it seems like it's worth a testdrive/comparison after another 100k on my current TDI.

    Seems like non of us posters are shopping for new cars, so we're all talk and no action - not about to spend $ on any new car!

    It sure would be interesting to read comments from someone who had recently cross-shopped any TDI vs a Prius !
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You heard the old Prius engine from the Echo, right? You haven't driven the larger and more powerful 2010 Prius on a slope, have you?
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    Funny you should mention:

    "You heard the old Prius engine from the Echo, right? You haven't driven the larger and more powerful 2010 Prius on a slope, have you? "

    We sold our 1.5L 2001 Echo to make room for our 1.8L 2010 Prius. However, I still drive our 1.5L 2003 Prius and I have climb data for both Prius:

    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_hill_climb.JPG
    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_2010_810.jpg

    Notice the 2010 Prius weights more yet uses less fuel at the same speeds up until 65 mph. Above 65 mph, the 2003 Prius begins drawing battery power, a false economy because the battery power has to be replaced after the climb.

    Bob Wilson
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    You posted, "Bob W thanks for posting actually detailed comparisons, . . ."

    Thanks are really due to the TDI advocates who post in this Prius area tread. The TDI postings give the leads, the reasons, for posting empirical Prius data. Now when it comes to "likes," I'm good with folks having a personal preference. For example, I like grits but understand some folks prefer hash browns.

    So as long as TDI advocate posts something for which we have empirical Prius data, well it is only fair to share the facts and data. After all, ignorance can be cured.

    Bob Wilson
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Many of the toxicities associated with diesel fuel are also found with exposure to gasoline. What is worse is that since gasoline has a lower vapor pressure, the toxic effects occur sooner and at lower temps.

    Explosive mixtures of gasoline and air occur at temperatures far below 52 degrees C.

    Gasoline goes through skin more easily than diesel fuel does.

    If you were to read the OSHA report for gasoline, it is just as bad if not worse than diesel.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    I don't disagree that gasoline is a hazardous and unhealthy substance. But I don't think diesel fuel is very healthy either. And I don't see that it is pertinent to the discussion of these two cars, since both forms of fuel will exist even if these two vehicles did not exist.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    On I-70 near Hagerstown there is a place called South Mountain. On either side of the crest there is a long steep climb greater than 8%.

    I have seen multiple Prius with two passengers unable to maintain 60 MPH going up either side of this grade.

    I drive a Jeep Liberty Limited CRD (diesel) and with four passengers plus 300 pounds of cargo have climbed this pass at 60 MPH without a problem or even downshifting and the tach never exceeding 1750 RPM.
This discussion has been closed.