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Sunroof leak on my Saturn Outlook

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Comments

  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    You can call NHTSA to see how many complaints need to be filed. I know this:
    Filing a complaint with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) - the NHTSA Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) is authorized to order manufacturers to recall and repair vehicles or items of motor vehicle equipment when ODI investigations indicate that these vehicles contain serious safety defects in their design, construction, or performance. Although some may or may not share my opinion; I believe GM has forsaken a very large percentage of its consumer base by not adequately addressing this extremely serious problem from the beginning. It has and continues to affect all models and is a very serious health and safety issue. ODI also monitors the adequacy of manufacturers' recall campaigns and again, this is only my opinion, GM's recall campaign on this issue is absolutely reprehensible - the dealers aren't able to fix this problem even after several attempts. My dealer had to sublet the last repair out to a local automotive interior leak specialist. I am simply a very, very dissatisfied consumer who would like more than what I've ultimately received from GM, which is a leaking, moldy, corroded product. More people need to vocalize their concerns and hold GM accountable.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    PS~ It was told to me by our Attorney General's office that it's important for people to file complaints with their AG in their state. The AG will represents those in their State and they keep data on these complaints and they will STEP in when the match these complaints with others. It is vital to file these complaints.
  • worried16worried16 Member Posts: 7
    It is just nice to know that I am not alone in this fight - I have filed a complaint with the Florida AG, the BBB and the NHTSA-- I called this morning to GM about my concern with mold/mildew, electrical issues and the fact that I did an entire check of the inside of the vehicle with a known Moisture meter detector and have photos of the meter pegged at the highest moisture reading in most of the spots. Today my family went out and did the moisture reading check again and found a few spots that had dried in the 80+ Florida temperature today but there are still quite a few high moisture readings. The person on the phone at GM said he would have to "do some research on the matter" and that because my car had been in already for 3 times to try to fix my problem that he may have to send my case to a level 2 manager (whatever that means) and that someone will call me back (yeah when?) - I told him that the car needed to get in ASAP but that I refused to pay any money on repairs and that I felt very much that I deserved a rental at no expense until the issue is resolved. I will see what happens!
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    worried16,

    Did you get a chance to call yesterday? Hopefully you have a Service Request set up and are in the process of working through this; if you haven't done so and would like to get it started via email, please contact us at socialmedia@gm.com

    All the best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    I'm glad to hear your Outlook is back, joyztoy! Keep us posted after that first rain storm!

    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • worried16worried16 Member Posts: 7
    Thank you Sarah - I did call in the morning and spoke with a person who said he had to do some research and that someone would call me back - I have not gotten any calls back - I had really hoped to have the car in the shop first thing Monday morning but it doesn't look like that - I guess I will have to just wait and see what happens
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    Great to hear! If you ever want to get any updates, send me your case number and I'll check in to see what's happening.

    Best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • saturn_bluessaturn_blues Member Posts: 1
    This is my first posting regarding the problems I have been having with my 2008 Saturn Outlook and the water leaks through the Sun Roof. I purchased the car used from my daughter (she swears she did not know about the problems with the Outlook related in the Edmunds website, but, we sure are now aware of the problems) and right from the start the problems started showing up. My daughter lives in Bakersfield, CA which is pretty dry, not much rain. I live in Sacramento, CA where we get quite a bit of rain.

    In June of 2011 I took the Outlook in to the GMC Dealer in Bakersfield for a leaky roof (I got soaked when water came out of the overhead and dumped into my lap while I was driving) - they repaired it and stated it was fixed as a warranty issue from a technical bulletin. So far so good. In February 2012 we got another rainstorm and the water into the overhead again (I could here it sloshing around in the overhead and water was soaked into the passenger side carpet area). It dried up in a couple of days and I didn't think much of it - maybe I didn't close the sunroof properly - at least thats what my family thought. Then, in April we got another rainstorm and water leaked in again and I figured I would have to take it Back to the GMC in Bakersfield for them to look at the problem since they fixed it last. I sealed the sunroof with tape in the meantime while I was waiting to go back to Bakersfield when my Saturn electrical system went "bonkers" and gave every fault condition on the dash and kept recycling the displays (it was Friday the 13th of April 2012). I tried to drive the car and made it 1/4 mile when it quit for good. I ended up taking the battery out and having it checked (everything was OK) and put it back in the Saturn. Luckily it started and I was able to limp it to the Folsom CA Chevrolet Dealership for maintenance. I got a rental car for three days while the car was being evaluated - on Tuesday I was notified by the Chevrolet Dealership that the Main Wiring for the Dashboard was damaged by water and that the Fuse Block was also damaged by water and that it would cost at least $4,000.00 to get it fixed. Luckily my insurance company is covering it (at least for right now - I hope they don't see this website), but, the Chevrolet dealership said that I would be liable for the $500 deductible and $750.00 to repair the sunroof - my cost is still going to be $1,250.00 for a problem that I now find has a LONG history, plus the rental car charges while the problem was being analyzed and before my insurance company took over.

    I have not notified my State AG, BBB or the NHTSA at this time as I am just learning of this problem and want to go on record as having this problem, at this time.

    ps. I have also gone through the headlights wiring connection burning out due to a mechanical design flaw.
  • worried16worried16 Member Posts: 7
    okay - on to a whole new adventure - we had massive thunderstorms the other day and we once again took the moisture meter into the car and everything is showing moisture....today I get home from a short trip to the store and I put it in park and turn off the ignition and pull out the key but the engine is STILL RUNNING with all the lights on with the key OUT of the ignition. I stuck my key back into the ignition and turned it one click and then turned it back one click and the car turned off. WTH!!! Is this something to be expected if the wiring is somehow compromised due to moisture???? I got a call back from GM this morning and the person told me they were having difficulty finding all of my repair records because the Saturn dealership where we had all the work done, does not exist anymore- lovely!
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    saturn_blues,

    I'm sorry to read about the leak in your Outlook, although it sounds as though your dealership has been able to isolate the concern. Please keep us up to date on the repair process, and if we can be of any further assistance let us know!

    Best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    Saturn Blues,
    We too thought it was our battery as well, if only it was that simple (and, eventually our electrical components went crazy).... Your story is similar to ours, the fuse box was flooded as well as the motor in the rear hatch. We had a snow storm back in February and our headliner on the passenger side was wet with water coming out of the visor clip; we called State Farm Insurance because we thought it was due to the storm and all the snow on the car, State Farm said "we could file a claim and have an adjuster come out however, the water leaks with the Saturn Outlooks, Arcadia's and Enclaves with the sunroofs have a long and well documented history of these problems as well as the damage done to the electrical components and State Farm would deny the claim." I wish you could have find this site sooner :( , It's unfortunate that now you will have this mark on your insurance and have paid out of pocket. You mentioned the service bulletin, as you can see the repairs suggested for these repairs failed, making GM responsible to make this right! At this point, from all we've read, we have not found where there was a successful fix.
    I suggest you call GM - they should pay! Good luck and please, file a complaint with the State AG, BBB and NHTSA.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    YES, this is very common from the what I've read on the Edmunds forum.
  • worried16worried16 Member Posts: 7
    I am beyond furious - I got a call back from GM telling me that I am on my own because the vehicle is out of warranty - WHAT - if they had fixed the darn vehicle correctly the first THREE times it was in for water leaks (and each of the THREE times on THEIR records) it shows that the water came in the SAME location all THREE times so gee....you think that since the car has continued to leak that it is not leaking in the SAME place. So great = thanks GM, now I have to stress out, go broke and hire my own darn lawyer to take care of a dangerous vehicle that GM CLEARLY has a severe problem with - thanks a lot for standing behind your product - we will NEVER EVER buy a GM product in the house again
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    So sorry to hear this.... We're in the same boat with you... Our car is in the shop for the third time now for 3 weeks today.... Listen to this one, they say now this happened because of PINE NEEDLES!!! I'm sooo pissed and right there with you! If these problems are due to pine needles why does GM have Sarah and other GM reps monitoring this site??? I think we need to get serious with a petition or something, soon, this is absolutely unbelievable and corrupt. Hang in there.
  • leakysaturnleakysaturn Member Posts: 1
    I am also having this issue on a 2007 outlook that I bought 3 months ago. I just found out from dealer I need to pay 2000.00 to start work on it. Passenger side roof is leaking, we think. the air bag light is intermittent...does it work? The car won't shut off at times. I was stuck with a running car in my garage for 20 minutes. I can see that there is NO fix for this. What do I do? I don't have 2,000 dollars, and I can't sell it now that I owe 25,000 dollars. Extended warranty doesn't cover water damage. PLEASE help. What do I do? Please tell me people have recieved help with this. Please respond!
  • ken1989ken1989 Member Posts: 1
    Just took my 2008 Saturn Outlook to the Chevorlet dealership for the third time for leaks in the sun roof. Water is leaking from the left and right support post, thru the air bag plug on the post and from across the entire top of the sunroof. Chevorlet tells me its not covered by warrenty. I am now having electrical problems with the car, motor continues to run with key in hand. I am also concered that the delivery system for the air bags has been compromised.
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    Good morning leakysaturn,

    If you haven't done so already, you can contact us via email at socialmedia@gm.com. Please include the following information: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, the name of your involved dealership and a brief summary of the situation. My coworker Christina will assist you further by setting up a Service Request and further evaluating any available options; we cannot promise what the result will be up front, but we will certainly look into it.

    All the best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    ken1989,

    I am sorry that you have had to make multiple trips in to have this looked at. If you would like for us to look into this further with you, please send an email to socialmedia@gm.com with more information (include your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, the name of your dealership and a summary of your visits - include information on how much you paid, dates, etc).

    Best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    Leakysaturn, Our car is also a 2007 and we purchased it only 9 months ago as well and we too have a high loan on it. Our car has been in the shop for over 60 days since the end of January and continues to be in the shop and can relate to your worries. Check to see if your car had the Bulletin repairs - click on my name to see posts that have the info. The repairs done to prevent these leaks did not work... take the time and read the posts, prepare yourself with information before talking to GM about these problems, it helps to be informed. We too purchased a extended warranty to prevent us from hefty repairs and expected normal maintenance cost, however, none of us were prepared for our beautiful cars to leak. Your car has all the classic symptoms, unfortunately. Please take the time to make complaints to your Attorney General, BBB and NTSHA. At this point, I believe GM is stringing loyal customers along - they pay to put a bandage on it and the leaks continue and then they stop. Our cars are unsafe and need to be reported. Again, I recommend you research this to be armed with knowledge. This past 3 months has been beyond stressful and I continue to be blown away that GM has not come up with a permanent fix and so many people have been affected by this well documented problem that
    GM is fully aware of.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    It's pretty clear Sarah we all need to know what the appropriate fix is for these problems. Again, where does all the information about these endless water leaks go - I'm sure at this point the data base is overloaded with these complaints and as all we want is a fix so we can carry on with our lives. The bandage repairs obviously are not working. What is GM doing to step up to the plate and deal with this this head on??
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    Ditto on the sunroof leak. This time (been in for leak repairs several times before - but those were covered by warranty) water is leaking on the fuse box. Won't shift out of first, continues to run after key is removed. Bill is up to $1000 so far, and not even sure if the shifting/running issue has been fixed.

    Emailed GM customer service. At the VERY least I would think GM would cover the $500 they're charging me to fix the leak they've "fixed" several times in the past.
  • crazyoutlookcrazyoutlook Member Posts: 6
    Good morning Saturn outlook owners. I started in on this post over a year ago do to my frustastion with what I thought was going to be a reliable and safe vehicle for my wife and three children. The problems started almost immediately after purchasing it. Broken side mirror motor, leaking water from roof rack, power steering leak, seized transmission shifter in cold weather ( due to excess moisture, go figure), sway bar end link replacemant, auto lift gate motor failure which gave me a concussion and almost killed my 1 year old. I want to know when GM is going to do right by recalling all Saturn outlooks. Thank you Sarah for always replying to these posts. I think that it is time to see action however!
  • elaskoelasko Member Posts: 1
    We are in the same situation. It started with a leaky sunroof and has progressed to all kinds of electrical problems. The remote start does not work, power tailgate does not work and only one stereo speaker works. The stereo goes on when vehicle is shut off, vehicle does not shut off at times. I am sure I'm forgetting other problems we have had. Its too bad we are having all of theses problems because we really like our Outlook. Our local Chevy dealer is no help at all, just gives us outrageous quotes for repairs that we cannot afford or have faith that they will permanently fix the problems.
    Any info on recalls or service bulletins would be appreciated
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    Welcome to the club elasko that NO one wants to join :(! There are two bulletin’s #10-08-67-001 A and 08207A. Do you know if you had these repairs done? Most of us have and the repairs failed as you can see by reading all the posts. I hope this info. is helpful.
    ***********************************************************
    September 2008
    Dear General Motors Customer:

    We have learned that your 2008 model year Buick Enclave or 2007-2008 model year GMC Acadia or Saturn OUTLOOK, equipped with a sunroof, may have a condition in which water is not properly drained away from the sunroof. If this condition were to occur, water may enter the interior of the vehicle and dampen the carpet, upholstery, and other interior components.

    Your satisfaction with your Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia, or Saturn OUTLOOK is very important to us, so we are announcing a program to prevent this condition or, if it has occurred, to fix it.

    What We Will Do: Your GM dealer/retailer will install drain tube extension assemblies and ensure that the water drains properly. This service will be performed for you at no charge until September 30, 2009 .

    What You Should Do: To limit any possible inconvenience, we recommend that you contact your dealer/retailer as soon as possible to schedule an appointment for this repair. By scheduling an appointment, your dealer/retailer can ensure that the necessary parts will be available on your scheduled appointment date.

    Customer Reply Form: The enclosed customer reply form identifies your vehicle. Presentation of this form to your dealer/retailer will assist in making the necessary correction in the shortest possible time. If you no longer own this vehicle, please let us know by completing the form and mailing it back to us. If you have any questions or need any assistance to better understand related repairs, please contact your dealer/retailer.

    If you have questions related to a potential reimbursement, please contact the appropriate Customer Assistance Center at the number listed below.

    Division
    Number
    Text Telephones (TTY)

    Buick
    1-866-608-8080
    1-800-832-8425

    GMC
    1-866-996-9463
    1-800-462-8583

    Saturn
    1-800-972-8876
    1-800-833-6000

    Guam
    1-671-648-8450


    Puerto Rico - English
    1-800-496-9992


    Puerto Rico - Español
    1-800-496-9993


    Virgin Islands
    1-800-496-9994



    Courtesy Transportation
    If your vehicle is within the New Vehicle Limited Warranty your dealer/retailer may provide you with shuttle service or some other form of courtesy transportation while your vehicle is at the dealership/facility for this repair. Please refer to your Owner’s Manual and your dealer/retailer for details on Courtesy Transportation.

    We sincerely regret any inconvenience or concern that this situation may cause you. We want you to know that we will do our best, throughout your ownership experience, to ensure that your GM vehicle provides you many miles of enjoyable driving.

    Scott Lawson

    General Director,

    Customer and Relationship Services

    Subject: 08207- Sunroof Water Leak - Install Drain Tube Extensions
    Models: 2008 Buick Enclave
    2007-2008 GMC Acadia
    2007-2008 Saturn OUTLOOK
    Equipped with a Sunroof

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    THIS PROGRAM IS IN EFFECT UNTIL SEPTEMBER 30, 2009.
    Condition
    Certain 2008 model year Buick Enclave; 2007-2008 model year GMC Acadia and Saturn OUTLOOK vehicles equipped with a sunroof may have a condition in which water is not properly drained away from the sunroof. If this condition were to occur, water may enter the interior of the vehicle and dampen the carpet, upholstery, and other interior components.

    Correction
    Dealers/retailers are to install drain tube extension assemblies, and ensure that the water drains properly.

    Vehicles Involved
    Involved are certain 2008 model year Buick Enclave; 2007-2008 model year GMC Acadia and Saturn OUTLOOK vehicles equipped with a sunroof and built within these VIN breakpoints:

    Year Division Model From Through
    2008 Buick Enclave 8J100004 8J168550
    2007 GMC Acadia 7J100150 7J175624
    2008 GMC Acadia 8J100942 8J168630
    2007 Saturn OUTLOOK 7J100003 7J175620
    2008 Saturn OUTLOOK 8J100640 8J168626

    Important: Dealers/retailers are to confirm vehicle eligibility prior to beginning repairs by using the system(s) below. Not all vehicles within the above breakpoints may be involved.

    - GM dealers and Canadian Saturn/Saab retailers should use GMVIS.
    - Saturn US retailers should use the 'Investigate Vehicle History' link on the Global Warranty Management application within DealerWorld.

    For dealers/retailers with involved vehicles, a listing with involved vehicles containing the complete vehicle identification number, customer name, and address information has been prepared and will be provided through the applicable system listed below. Dealers/retailers will not have a report available if they have no involved vehicles currently assigned.

    - US GM and Saturn dealers/retailers - GM DealerWorld Recall Information
    - Canadian GM/Saturn/Saab dealers/retailers - GMinfoNet Recall Reports
    - Export dealers - sent directly to dealers

    The listing may contain customer names and addresses obtained from Motor Vehicle Registration Records. The use of such motor vehicle registration data for any purpose other than follow-up necessary to complete this program is a violation of law in several states/provinces/countries. Accordingly, you are urged to limit the use of this report to the follow-up necessary to complete this program.

    Parts Information
    GM, Saturn/Saab Canada Only - Parts required to complete this program are to be obtained from General Motors Service and Parts Operations (GMSPO). Please refer to your "involved vehicles listing" before ordering parts. Normal orders should be placed on a DRO = Daily Replenishment Order. In an emergency situation, parts should be ordered on a CSO = Customer Special Order.

    Saturn US Only - A pre-shipment of the required parts to perform this repair has been sent to involved Saturn US retailers from Saturn Service Parts Operations (SSPO).

    Part Number
    Description
    Qty/ Vehicle

    25930220
    Tube, Sun Rf Hsg RR Drn
    2

    To Be Obtained Locally
    Tie Straps
    8


    Service Procedure
    Important: Before lowering the headliner, please perform the following steps to avoid damage to the interior trim.

    On the assist handle, use a small screwdriver to open both screw covers by prying carefully from the inboard edge. Remove the screws.

    On the "A" pillar and "D" pillar, use a small screw driver to open the screw cover by prying carefully from the bottom edge. Remove the screws.
    On the "B" pillar and "C" pillar, use a small screw driver to open the screw cover by prying carefully from the
  • gmcustsvcgmcustsvc Member Posts: 4,252
    crazyoutlook,
    Thank you for taking the time to post your experience. I apologize for your frustrations. Can you please email me your VIN, current mileage, and GM dealer of choice? Please include your contact information (including mailing address) in your email as well as a description of your concerns. Have you spoke with GM Customer assistance regarding your concerns? I look forward to hearing from you.
    Christina
    GM Customer Service
    SocialMedia@GM.com
  • bubbles1956bubbles1956 Member Posts: 32
    I think we should ALL go to our local news and any other news station we can to get the word out there. With any luck, some news station will do a report and make this well known and maybe get us a class action law suit. I am amazed that there haven't been any deaths...at least that we know of with all these problems. I have already emailed the local news and am going to compile more links to the other forums with these same issues and pass it on to other news stations. We should also get this out on UTube.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    Great next step from Bubbles1965...It says to include backup information, folks, I think we have plenty of that! What do you all think of writing to ABC? If your in, it would be a good idea to send our letters on the same day to the same news organizations that way I believe we will get the attention we need to make GM accountable.

    Thank you for your request to ABC News.

    To submit a story idea to one of the ABC News shows listed below, write a single page letter including your name, phone number, and address. Include photocopies of backup information. On the outside of the envelope, write "Story Idea." If a producer is interested in your story, he/she will contact you. Here are the show addresses:

    20/20
    147 Columbus Avenue
    New York, NY 10023

    Primetime/What Would You Do?
    147 Columbus Avenue
    New York, NY 10023

    Nightline/This Week
    1717 DeSales Street NW
    Washington, DC 20036

    ABC World News with Diane Sawyer
    47 West 66th Street, 2nd Floor
    New York, NY 10023

    Good Morning America
    147 Columbus Avenue
    New York, NY 10023
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    Thanks for the bulletin information. I'm pretty sure those were applied to my vehicle a while back, but it looks like the problem is back.

    The attorney general's website suggests contacting Center for Auto Safety for information on "secret warranties" that may apply, but they say to contact the manufacturer. Attorney general's website says to contact Consumer Protection Division or get a lawyer.

    You would think between with 2 years of Outlook, Enclave, Acadias (perhaps others as well) there would be enough momentum for a story or a class action suit.
  • bubbles56bubbles56 Member Posts: 7
    I have filed a complaint with the safety board, the Attorney General here in NC and I just sent out emails to ABC news, CBS news and MSNBC news. This is my first reply back.

    Thank you for your request to ABC News.

    To submit a story idea to one of the ABC News shows listed below, write a single page letter including your name, phone number, and address. Include photocopies of backup information. On the outside of the envelope, write "Story Idea." If a producer is interested in your story, he/she will contact you. Here are the show addresses:

    20/20
    147 Columbus Avenue
    New York, NY 10023

    Primetime/What Would You Do?
    147 Columbus Avenue
    New York, NY 10023

    Nightline/This Week
    1717 DeSales Street NW
    Washington, DC 20036

    ABC World News with Diane Sawyer
    47 West 66th Street, 2nd Floor
    New York, NY 10023

    Good Morning America
    147 Columbus Avenue
    New York, NY 10023

    I suggest EVERYONE type up a letter and send them out to as many National News stations as possible. If they get enough of these letters, they might do a story on it and if so..maybe we will have answers and real help for a change. I am a lucky one..so far. I have a 2008 Saturn Outlook that is almost always covered, either in a carport or under a car cover. This is the first year that I had left it out in a heavy rain and found a leak. It took GM 3 times to find the actual leak and the first two times I had to pay a little over $100 each time. The third time, I contacted Sarah from GM customer service..in this forum, she got them to pay the $400 cost of replacing the moonroof seal. The extended warrany from Zurich is a rip off. They don't cover seals or gaskets. That was basically $1400 down the drain. So far, I have left my car out every time it rained and so far, no leaks. I don't trust this fix though after reading all the complaints in this forum and the acadia and saturn forums. Because of this, I ended up trading in my Outlook for a Chevy Traverse. I should be picking it up in the next two weeks. I did NOT get a sunroof this time. It is sad that we paid so much for these beautiful vehicles. We bailed out GM and they continue to rip off the Acadia, Enclave and Outlook owners of 2007-2008 SUVs with these sunroofs. They should either buy these back or give us a better trade in to get another vehicle..without a sunroof. If anyone does try a class action lawsuit..just let us all know who to contact. I think getting the news involved is our best bet for actual answers..before someone gets killed with all these electrical issues I have been reading about.
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    Glad to here Sarah came through for you. Hoping to get some help as well. I'm $1000 out of pocket so far (for a problem they supposedly already fixed under the earlier bulletin) and told that may just be the beginning of the related repairs.

    My cars have almost always had sunroofs or been convertibles. I've heard about issues with aftermarket installations, but never had any water issues with my other cars.

    Yeah, the electrical issues have been scary - melted headlight wiring, heated washer fluid fires, now this.

    Are you sending to each of those news contacts listed?
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    Domp, If you look up your VIN # it will indicate if you had these bulletins done. Here's the issue; GM made the public aware of these problems and put service bulletins out to fix the problems, extent the drain tubes etc. The repairs failed and problems they were hoping to fix happened. It's helpful to look back on previous post to get really informed before talking to GM. Stay strong!! Complaints can also be made to BBB and NTSHA as well.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    OH MY GOODNESS!! THIS IS A MUST READ ON SECRET WARRANTIES!
    READ, READ, READ....

    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.

    But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.

    No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
    No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future owners until the consent agreement expired eight years later in 1988. Although the FTC later filed similar complaints and actions against GM, VW, Honda, and Chrysler in the late 1970's, it dropped the requirement of secret warranty notification. In 1981 after the change of Administrations, the Commission completely dropped its efforts to expose secret warranties.

    Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public Interest Law successfully sue Toyota over a secret warranty that covered up to $1800 in repair costs for pulsating brakes in over 400,000 1983-87 Camrys. To settle CAS' class action Toyota agreed to 1) notify all present and past owners, 2) reimburse consumers for all repair expenses already incurred, and repair all ca
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    OH MY GOODNESS!! THIS IS A MUST READ ON SECRET WARRANTIES!
    READ, READ, READ....

    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.

    But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.

    No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
    No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future owners until the consent agreement expired eight years later in 1988. Although the FTC later filed similar complaints and actions against GM, VW, Honda, and Chrysler in the late 1970's, it dropped the requirement of secret warranty notification. In 1981 after the change of Administrations, the Commission completely dropped its efforts to expose secret warranties.

    Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public Interest Law successfully sue Toyota over a secret warranty that covered up to $1800 in repair costs for pulsating brakes in over 400,000 1983-87 Camrys. To settle CAS' class action Toyota agreed to 1) notify all present and past owners, 2) reimburse consumers for all repair expenses already incurred, and repair all ca
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    Con't of Secret Warranty:

    Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public Interest Law successfully sue Toyota over a secret warranty that covered up to $1800 in repair costs for pulsating brakes in over 400,000 1983-87 Camrys. To settle CAS' class action Toyota agreed to 1) notify all present and past owners, 2) reimburse consumers for all repair expenses already incurred, and repair all cars with this defect that had not yet been repaired. CAS estimates the total cost to Toyota to be over $100 million, most of which would have been borne by consumers but for CAS' action.

    State Secret Warranty Laws
    In order to protect consumers from undisclosed defects, five states (California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, and Wisconsin) have enacted secret warranty laws and other states are considering secret warranty legislation. The state secret warranty laws already enacted require manufacturers to disclose their "warranty adjustment" programs by giving direct notice of any warranty extension to affected owners, including information about the terms of the warranty, and provision for reimbursement to consumers who already have paid for the covered repair. Until all states enact and enforce secret warranty laws, consumers will be kept in the dark about secret warranties.

    How to Find a Secret Warranty
    Until secret warranty disclosure laws become the law of the land, the only way to find out about secret warranties is just plain hard work. First, one checks the technical service bulletins for your vehicle type and model year. Service bulletins are published by the manufacturer and sent to dealerships to assist them in diagnosing and repairing problems on the vehicles they service. The existence of a service bulletin does not conclusively prove the auto company has a secret warranty but it does show a defect or problem exists for which the manufacturer has had to develop a repair. Service bulletins can be difficult to decipher, but it is well worth the effort. Finding the right bulletin could save you thousands of dollars in repair costs. The right bulletin is the one that tells the dealer how to diagnose and fix the problem. It also will authorize the dealer to make the repairs at the manufacturer's expense even though the defect is no longer covered by the manufacturer's express warranty.

    The trouble is that manufacturers often do not put the terms authorizing free repair in the technical service bulletins but give this information only to their factory representatives so that both the dealer and consumer are kept in the dark. Watch for code words in bulletins such as "check for availability of good will assistance." Companies often use such language to get around the triggering requirements for customer notification in states that have secret warranty disclosure laws.

    Secret warranties are often revealed when owners of vehicles of the same type and age are treated differently by the dealer or manufacturer. If some owners get their vehicles repaired at no cost or at a discount whereas other owners of the same vehicle do not, it is possible that a secret warranty covers the defect involved. However, it is also possible that the dealer or manufacturer has decided on a case-by-case basis to reimburse a relatively small number of owners to retain their goodwill and not as part of a warranty adjustment program. To constitute a secret warranty, the difference in treatment of customers must be based on a corporate policy to reimburse owners that is communicated to regional offices and usually also to dealers but that is not communicated to consumers.

    How to Use a Secret Warranty
    After determining that your vehicle is covered by a secret warranty, the next step is to take advantage of your knowledge. The best way to do this is to take the service bulletin that proves the existence of the secret warranty with you when you go to your dealer to get the defect repaired. Without the bulletin, you will have a much more difficult time getting the dealer to repair your vehicle free of charge. Even if the dealer refuses to recognize the existence of the secret warranty [he might not know that the secret warranty exists] or if your vehicle is beyond the period of coverage of the secret warranty, he still may repair your vehicle at no expense as part of a goodwill adjustment.

    If the dealer claims your vehicle is not covered by a secret warranty and refuses to give you a goodwill adjustment, your next step is to pursue your claim directly with the manufacturer. You should do this for two reasons. First, unlike dealers, the manufacturer will know always know if a certain defect in one of its own vehicles is covered by a secret warranty. Second, every manufacturer has a system to handle consumer complaints, which should be followed even though it may not work in most cases. Complaint handling mechanisms outside the manufacturer's system (e.g. arbitration) require exhaustion of all remedies that the manufacturer provides.

    Contact the manufacturer's division (also called regional, district or zone) office in your area. The locations and correct names of district offices and the complaint procedures are often spelled out in the owner's manual. If the manufacturer's representative refuses to see you, contact the regional office or the manufacturer's owner relations office, often located in Detroit for domestic manufacturers, California for Japanese and Asian manufacturers, and New Jersey for European manufacturers.

    If the manufacturer refuses to extend the secret warranty to your vehicle (perhaps because your car is beyond the time or mileage requirements of the secret warranty), do not give up. Manufacturers only reimburse those owners who complain loudly and persistently; those who put off complaining, or who never complain at all, must pay for the manufacturer's mistakes.

    The next step is to make enough noise outside the manufacturer's complaint handling system to get results. A strong commitment is necessary to successfully use this procedure, because you will not get results unless you are willing to persistently follow up letters and phone calls.

    Complain in writing to the manufacturer's Chairman of the Board or President with copies of that letter to others. Set forth the defect covered by the secret warranty clearly and precisely within the letter and refer to the collected documentation of the car's troubles and your attempts to have the car repaired "within the system."

    Send copies to various organizations such as local and national consumer groups, local and state consumer protection agencies, state attorneys general, federal agencies and members of Congress. Even if these agencies or groups cannot act directly on your behalf, the
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    ANOTHER MUST READ:

    CBS did a story on "Secret Warranties" in 2011
    Uncovering Secret Warranties on Cars
    By Jerry Edgerton

    Imagine you're a car maker who wants to defuse a potential bombshell. You just learned about a nasty defect in one of your models. How do you reckon with the trouble without the toxic publicity of a recall? You might whisper to dealers that it's fine for them to quietly provide free fixes to owners who complain. That's how Toyota kept the lid on its sudden acceleration risks as early as '02 Camrys, according to investigative firm Safety Research and Strategies
    Almost all carmakers use "secret warranties." You, too, may be able to get persistent flaws in your car fixed free even if your warranty has expired --provided you can track down other complaints and negotiate shrewdly with your dealer.

    Finding out if your vehicle is covered by hush-hush arrangements can be tricky, say advocates at the Center for Auto Safety (CAS), who originally discovered and named secret warranties in the early '70s. "Manufacturers increasingly have worked hard to keep secret warranties secret," says executive director Clarence M. Ditlow III.

    The CAS estimates about 500 secret warranties are in force at any time and says the number has grown over the past decade since regulators often haven't demanded full safety recalls.

    Your job finding out about secret warranties may be a little easier if you live in California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia or Wisconsin, which require owner notification of them.

    If your car has a chronic problem that seems dangerous, here's how to crack the codes of secret warranties and get what you deserve:

    Start with the government
    Check the web site of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). Go to the Defects and Recalls section and search three sections: defect investigations, complaints and technical service bulletins.

    Defect Investigations. Check to see if problems like yours triggered a NHTSA investigation. If one is underway, it may strengthen your case for a free repair. But if (as in the case of Toyota unintended acceleration for '02 Camrys) NHTSA closed the investigation without ordering any action, it undermines your argument.

    Complaints. In the Search Complaints section, see if other owners raised your problem and if they took their cars to the dealership. Be especially alert for a notation that the dealer repaired the car at no charge and show it to your dealer.

    Technical service bulletins. NHTSA puts summaries of these safety-related documents on its site, but getting full versions takes several weeks or longer. If evidence from investigations or owner complaints make it likely that your car company has detailed fixes for the problem, buy a full set of bulletins at the Alldata consumer web site for $26.95.

    Getting a Free Repair
    Take printouts bolstering your case to the dealership."If you have done your research and have the documents, you should be in a stronger bargaining position," says Sean Kane, whose Safety Research and Strategies does general auto safety research and also works with plaintiffs' attorneys. But you're not assured of a free repair. You could get a discounted fix or be asked to pay full price.

    You have a better chance of a free repair if you are a regular customer of the dealer or have:

    A car under original warranty.

    A technical service bulletin that mentions "goodwill assistance" or "goodwill adjustment." That's manufacturer's code for a secret warranty.

    A bushel of NHTSA complaints for the same problem, especially if one mentions a free fix by a dealer.

    If you get no satisfaction from the dealer, call the manufacturer's regional office, often listed in the owner's manual, and repeat your case. If you're still rebuffed, write complaints to top executives at headquarters.

    Remember, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2012
    More right here at Edmunds (first published in 2000 and updated since then):

    The Secret Warranty

    The main takeaway is that you need to be the original owner and have shown loyalty to the brand by paying dealer prices for regular maintenance. Even then it's a bit of a crap shoot.
  • worried17worried17 Member Posts: 6
    Finally got GM to let us take our car in to get looked at - come to find out - GEE - IT IS LEAKING -this will be the FOURTH time this damn car has been brought in for leaking water all from the sunroof. My husband and I were flabbergasted with their response - they stated that the drain tubes in the sunroof were clogged and it was causing the leaks and that we would have to pay $300 to have them unclogged - WTF! When my husband asked them why they would be clogged -we have NO trees around us, the car sits in the open, there is NO way for stuff to get into a sunroof that is SEALED and we barely ever use the sunroof and they replied that it is part of the "regular maintenance" we are supposed to do on the car. WHAT???? I have NEVER EVER had ANY dealer tell me that you must perform regular maintenance of having drain tubes checked on a sunroof....NEVER and both my husband and I have always owned cars with sunroofs. He then said it is in the handbook somewhere - so we went through the entire handbook - NOPE - NOT there! I am FLOORED.....we were told at the last fix that the drains were clogged (AND NO, NO ONE said anything that we were supposed to be doing "routine" maintenance on the drain tubes) because the drains have been found to not be long enough to handle it when it rained so they did the recall of extending our drains and that would take care of any issues with them getting clogged. OF COURSE they couldn't get any of the electrical issues to present themselves -what a coincidence....so are they calling me LIAR????? all FOUR car windows have intermittent problems where they will not go up or down, the rear hatch has intermittent problems of NOT opening or closing both through the key fob and when you push on the button on the back gate, the car DVD/Stereo system that I paid a FORTUNE FOR as an upgrade stays black or does not work intermittently, the car DID NOT TURN OFF after taking the key out of the ignition...THESE ARE ALL ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS...and gee, my car is leaking water - last time I checked electrical wires and water DON'T mix! Routine Maintenance my bum! How in their right mind can they sit there in good conscious and tell us that we must pay $300.00 to fix a problem that is CLEARLY a design flaw....and that does not address any of the electrical problems we have been having. We will never, ever purchase from GM again that is for darn sure - they get bailed out by the government and they don't even have the decency to take care of a KNOWN ongoing problem - KARMA is all I can say
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    worried17,

    I'm sorry - I realize that you are not satisfied at the moment with the current diagnosis at your dealership. If we can look into this further with you, please contact us at socialmedia@gm.com (include your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, the name of your dealership and a description of your visits there (include date, etc) for the leaking concern).

    Best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    I'm in the same boat. Mind if I ask what area of the country you're in?

    My dealer is trying to charge me $500 to re-repair the leak they fixed previously ($500 not including any damamge caused by the leak).

    I agree about sunroof maintenance - I find nothing about maintaining drains, haven't been told about maintaining drains when the tubes were fixed the first couple of times.
  • worried17worried17 Member Posts: 6
    edited May 2012
    We are in Brevard County- Florida- we have called GM back and told them that this is just not acceptable to us...especially knowing that the car has now been in the shop 4 times for the exact same thing and each time they "supposedly" fixed it. Why should WE be responsible for paying to fix something that should have been fixed PROPERLY THREE OTHER TIMES. Are we supposed to take it into a GM dealer to fix something and then take it to a 3rd party shop after every fix just to make sure that GM fixed it correctly???? When you take a car in and they say they "fixed it", I am trusting that they are telling the truth and they knew what they were doing...now I have to second guess every single time the darn car is taken in. I am furious to learn that we are also going to be held responsible for going through the process of blowing out/cleaning out the drain lines to the sunroof on a regular basis because GM built a faulty design. So this is just going to keep happening over and over and over again all because GM is not stepping up and taking care of the issue. We SHOULD have gone through the Lemon Law filing process. The last time we brought it in was the 3rd repair and we were well within our time frame to file for the Lemon Law and they ASSURED us that the problem was fixed so we stupidly believed them and did not file...now we are out of our time frame. We paid $40,000 for this blasted car. Why is it that companies in the USA just can't make a quality vehicle or at least OWN UP TO IT when they realize there is a major flaw?
  • worried17worried17 Member Posts: 6
    Been fighting this tooth and nail all day and my husband has lost most of a day of work going back and forth on the phone - we shared ALL of the technical service bulletins with the service manager at the dealership concerning the water leak and he said that all the repairs were carried out via the service bulletins so they are no longer held liable. What needs to be in those stupid bulletins is that consumers are having the service bulletins carried out but it is NOT fixing the water leak. So we are now going around in circles - the car is obviously leaking water, it has now been in 4 times to be fixed, all the service bulletins were carried out, so they get to wipe their hands clear of the problem despite the fact that very obviously the repairs called for in those bulletins are NOT fixing the problem. What makes me even angrier is the fact that a gentleman just posted on the leaky outlook Facebook site that he brought his car in this week due to a water leak, they found that the drain tubes were blocked, they were going to charge him a huge sum of money to clear them out, he refused, and GM agreed to cover the cleaning and repair.......SO WHY in the world do they agree to fix one person's car for the EXACT same reason but NOT another person's car?????
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    We had the same problems with the rear hatch, etc.... It turned out that our fuse box was flooded as well as our rear hatch motor. It''s extremely dangerous and grateful our car died in our driveway and that the fuse box didn't give out while we were driving, it could have been deadly.
    Bottom line, these drain tubes cannot handle large amounts of water despite multiple repairs = faulty product as well as extremely dangerous. I'm so sick and tired of GM and repair shops treated as all as if we were idiots, talking down to us and giving us lip service. Like it says in the "Secret Warranty" this actions are designed to break us down.... We're not broken and will continue to fight this injustice.
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    I agree - this a serious safety issue. There have been times when I can't accelerate to the speed of traffic coming behind me since the car won't get out of first gear. Or pulled the key out of the ignition and left a car still running.
  • joyztoyjoyztoy Member Posts: 9
    It rained last night and needless to say my first stop this morning was to the dealership. Water again through the back up sensor/light and by the front passenger pillar. I broke down in tears at the dealership because I am DONE!!! It will be my sixth time trying to get this fixed, and my family cannot continue to live through this. My son had to put a towel over him on his way to day care and he was still soaked.

    My GM case is still open and I left a very emotional message for my rep. I know she didn't deserve some of the "colorful" words I left on her voicemail but I can't deal with this anymore. I just want my vehicle not to leak! My back up sensor was almost hanging from the headliner this morning so now I am even more concerned about electrical issues beyond those caused by water in the fuse box. My service agent at the dealership also view the water streaks that are visible when you open the door and look at the side of the dashboard.
  • worried17worried17 Member Posts: 6
    This is just so incredibly stressful and frustrating....the news just keeps getting worse......MASSIVE RUST. We are lucky in the fact that the GM service tech and manager are actually being really nice and truly WANT to help us - the upsetting part is that they are saying their hands are tied in that they can only do what GM allows them to do even though they want to do more to help. For example, we call GM and tell them this will be the 4th time the vehicle has had leaking problems and they say bring it in and they will have the shop inspect the vehicle....come to find out, the vehicle was NOT inspected, they opened the sunroof and saw that the drain tubes were "clogged" - end of inspection - they did not inspect the car ANY further for anything else...despite the fact we told them that water was found throughout the entire car and we are having countless electrical problems...they see the drain tubes clogged and automatically assume that is the problem - end of story and they don't look at anything else. They are not able to reproduce the electrical issues of the windows not working, the hatch intermittently not working, my car staying on after the keys are out and they have no explanation for any of that and are refusing to tie the water leak to the electrical issues. Then we have someone telling us that the drain tubes being clogged is our fault because we are supposed to be doing routine maintenance on the drain tubes - WHAT!!! and they are not going to cover the repairs. How can the drain tubes be clogged if we never open the sunroof and it is not near any trees and where the heck does it say we are supposed to conduct routine maintenance in cleaning out the sunroof drain tubes and the roof leaking has been repaired 3x in the past how come no one ever informed us of that fact? Then GM escalates our claim because we are furious at this point and we get the call that they will cover the repairs of everything but that we have to pay for the labor costs...WHAT!!!! I don't think so!

    So we told the service rep to PLEASE inspect the car - the WHOLE car and barely into the inspection, what do they find - massive rust in one spot - JOY...they informed us this is a big problem....so we tell them that we informed the dealership many moons ago that we found rust all over the place on the floorboards under our tracks for our center captain's chairs (where there was water in the floorboards)...they at the time told us that it was "normal"...and so we informed the service tech to PLEASE inspect the WHOLE car for further rust issues. We also asked AGAIN for them to check the fuse box and the electrical components for any water damage - still don't think they have even done this yet. This is a no brainer to me....the car has been leaking for YEARS off and on, they did not fix it correctly the past THREE times it was in and now we have massive rust. Rust can affect the integrity of the car - what if we have massive rust in other locations in the car - what if we get into a car accident and are hit in one of those areas and the area gives way due to it being compromised with rust damage eating through the metal? So they said this is turning into a huge problem and now have to basically hunt throughout the entire car and order all kinds of special parts in order to replace all the rusted out metal on the body. If they had just fixed this properly the FIRST time it had been brought in, we would not be in this situation
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    I'm told there are more than just the two drain tubes in the sunroof area. Those were suppedly fixed by the bulletin repairs, but the drain tubes that are causing all of my problems now are different drain tubes and are not covered by any bulletins. I don't live near any trees, pine or otherwise, so what debris could be causing these problems?

    Might want to check youtube as well before your next shop visit. There is something else besides the fusebox that gets flooded that you might want to have checked - I think it's power steering related.

    Congrats on getting some coverage from GM - but I agree, that's not enough. I've had no luck at all yet - from GM or the dealer. Haven't tried the legal route or news route yet.
  • worried17worried17 Member Posts: 6
    My husband and I are in absolute shock right now - yesterday the dealership informed us that they had found rust and carried on a lengthy conversation as to where the rust was found and that this was now a warranty issue and they would need to order some parts and they put us back into a rental car - I then called and told them I am worried about them finding rust because we found rust on our seat tracks several years ago and I was concerned about the safety....today, my husband called to get an update on the rust situation and both the manager and tech both said, what rust? They told my husband that he must have mis-understood and they were talking about debri - debri does not sound the same as the word rust and why in the world would they go into a lengthy explanation as to where the rust was found and that it was now a warranty concern - they then stated they never talked about rust and never had that conversation with my husband. I even called and spoke with them about and said, my husband told me that you found rust and explained my concern about rust being found in the car several years ago.....I have NEVER, in my entire life had someone attempt to cover something up like this - they have completely changed their story, are stating they never had any conversations about rust and warranty with either one of us. I am totally flabbergasted and in shock. How can people do that???? My husband is trying to find out if his office phones have a recording built in mechanism because he called from work when they had this discussion yesterday. I know this was going to be tough but never in a million years ever thought that lying and covering up would occur - totally blown away
  • worried17worried17 Member Posts: 6
    well we are officially done with dealing with this - it appears the tech who spoke with us about rust yesterday is stating that conversation never happened and for whatever reason, he made a mistake and doesn't want to admit to it, at least the manager is taking full responsibility for what occurred stating there was some form of miscommunication- we have lost all faith and respect on their communication methods and how they handle situations and just plan on finishing up the car and figuring out if we dump the car or take it to a ma/pa shop far, far away from any GM or other corporate dealership... - done with this whole mess
  • joyztoyjoyztoy Member Posts: 9
    We dropped our truck for the 6th time. ANY clues on what exactly fails after 2-3 years to cause this leak? Obviously when I rolled out it off the dealership floor it didn't leak. I have had so many fixes to my sunroof system I believe it is something beyond that. Yes, I get it is probably a design defect somewhere, but why didn't it occur on day 1? I live in MN where thunderstorm and downpours are a common and the drain tubes were able to handle the overflow until last fall. And then the leaking gradually became worst and worse. So the mystery question again: What failed?
  • bubbles56bubbles56 Member Posts: 7
    Send a letter to all the National News companies about this problem. If everyone did this, then it would actually get looked at. Send a letter to your Senator and congressman as well as the Attorney General. Just type out everything and mail the same letter to anyone and everyone you can. Once we all do this, someone will take notice and bring GM down for this mess. The National news can do this better than anyone else I can think of. The one who had three problems in the first year can still file a lemon law claim...just try...it doesn't hurt and that is one more company involved and documented with this problem. It is pretty bad when you have to either keep your car covered or put landscaping plastic and duck tape around the sunroof to keep dry. I traded my Outlook in after they fixed it the third time...and they paid for the third visit. I would tell the dealer that they "fixed" the problem twice and it still leaks, you want a refund or for them to fix it for free this time. I had to go to GM, Sarah, who advanced my complaint higher and they paid for the moonroof seal. I traded that car in while I knew it was still fixed. I was one of the lucky ones. Just everyone needs to get those letters out if you want help down the road.
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