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Is a classic car right for me?

24

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah but she wants a "classic". Miatas are really swell cars but a dime a dozen--hundreds of thousands of them swarming like bees. I think she has her eyes on the unusual, not the ordinary, in this case.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Crackpipe. Sounds about 100% overpriced. The hardtop for an E30 is indeed very rare, but it's not worth thousands. Probably needs emissions work and a compressor or something.

    There was a Top Gear with E30 convertibles not long ago. The guys bought them cheap and had experts look them over - they each needed like 9K *pounds* of work to be put right. German cars...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    QUIZ:

    Why are 99% of all removable hardtops in pristine condition?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Your point is well taken and you are absoultly correct.

    I used to think nothing of commuting on busy So. Calif freeways in my VW Beetles but doing so today would probably terrify me and for good reason.

    I remember once driving my 1962 Buick Special straight through from Seattle to L.A. I was going to stop for the night in Redding but after eating I felt like driving on and I did! I remember driving 100 MPH for about an hour straight.

    Sloppy suspension, bias ply tires, a lap belt and I was invincible!

    A cop pulled me over on that trip and gave me a warning. He said he didn't want to be the one to call my parents to inform them I had been killed on I-5.

    It doesn't take much to get killed in an old VW and Karmann Ghias wouldn't be one bit safer!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Why?

    Probably because they get hung up in a garage and don't ever get used!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Exactly. If we concur that the price of an object is based upon supply and demand, then even though the hardtop is rare, there's not much demand for it.

    If it were another type of car, say an older Corvette, you could justify asking extra for the hardtop, or even say for an Alfa Spider---but for a BMW 325, the tops are pretty weathertight and quiet---so what's the point?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    They made hardtops for S-2000's too and I don't recall our store ever selling one. They were close to 4000.00 which was nuts!

    We did buy a nice black S-2000 at the auction once that had a hardtop until someone broke into it one night and stole the hardtop and the seats!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Probably because everyone bought theirs from hardtopguy. :P
  • astphardastphard Member Posts: 24
    So is it that the SL and Karmann Ghia aren't recommended for reliability, or that no car (that's 25+ years old) is recommended for reliability?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,704
    No 25+ year old car is reliable for daily use. If your job depends on your car, you don't want to depend on a 'classic'. If you have options for transportation if it's in the shop, then you can think about a classic.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2011
    Exactly so.

    Often "reliability" in a classic car is a matter NOT a matter of it running well all the time, but rather "how easy is it to fix when it breaks and how quickly can one do that?"

    So, in THAT sense a VW is always more reliable than a Mercedes, even if the VW breaks more often. I mean, you cannot take an engine out of a 560SL in an hour and order a new one for $695. You can't even get a Mercedes mechanic to open the hood probably for $695.

    Also the VW doesn't have any complex systems...you want heat? Pull a knob that pulls on a cable that attaches to a tin box by means of a paper clip. Can't beat that. Oil change? A plastic bucket and an adjustable wrench and you're good to go. You don't even have to buy an oil filter because there is none.

    And last of all, VW parts are everywhere. You can order so many aftermarket parts for VW (except some Ghia body panels and trim bits) and they are CHEAP.

    ON THE DOWN SIDE---primitive is as primitive does. You want simplicity? Don't expect AC, a smooth ride, quiet interior, stunning acceleration, weather protection, etc.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    " You want heat"?

    You didn't mention having to wait 20 minutes for the ever so slightly warm air to start coming through the vents and you better hope you didn't have an exhaust leak.

    I once had a 1969 Beetle that had dealer installed A/C.

    Oh, they shouldn't have done that...If I was going down the freewy at 65MPG and the compressor cycled on it would slow the car down by 10 MPH!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The later VW Ghias have heater vents under the back seat and since the heat didn't have to travel all the way to the front of the car, it worked pretty well--of course, you still couldn't defrost but the defroster vents were good for sticking your fingers in them to avoid frostbite.

    Then there's the "pick a gear, any gear---don't tell me which one--now put it back in the H pattern and I'll try to guess" gearshift to deal with. It's like rowing an oar in a barrel.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The first thing I notice about my 1989 Cadillac Brougham is how thin the rim on the steering wheel is compared to my newer cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    That's something I remember about our old Ciera - very thin steering wheel. Knowing 1980s GM, your Brougham has the same wheel.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The power steering on those 60's GM cars had so much assist you could literally steer them with the tip of one finger on the rim of the steering wheel.

    It never seemed like a problem at the time and I kinda liked that feel.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    My 66 Galaxie was like that, so much assist that it was zero effort, pretty much zero feel too.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It was a lot like steering a ship...you, the captain, sent a command down to the engine room via your pinky...this was received by the engineer's mate, read aloud, and handed over to the helmsman, who dutifully cranked a large gearset to slowly turn the rudder...eventually, the vessel would turn in the direction you indicated. :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    And they'd usually lean and stop like a big ship, too :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I drove a '57 T-Bird last week that had an aftermarket steering box, modern shocks and a front disc brake conversion, and it wasn't too too bad---it still handled like a hippo on ice skates but it seemed predictable---I got some "feedback" at least.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    A resto mod kind of setup might be the best way for someone to get the look with better driving manners. Or just deal with the way things were. Nobody takes a stock 57 Bird to an autocross :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I have driven some 60s cars that were set up as "pro tourers" and the handling and braking were outstanding. It can be done but it ain't cheap. In addition to the usual upgrades of radial tires and power disc brakes, you really need to swap out the suspension for coil-overs and disc brake conversion, possibly lower the car a bit, add sway bars, and of course electronic ignition, a rebuilt crate engine if you can get one, HD radiator, maybe even a Tremec 5-speed or modern TH350 with overdrive--that sort of thing--the list goes on and on---gauge pak, modern sound system, cooling fans, headers, positraction, dual exhaust, dyna-mat insulation, tinted glass, power locks, gel battery, maybe high torque starter motor, new wiring harness, power steering if you don't have it, vintage AC, air-tex, fuel pressure regulator, high volume fuel pump.

    You can spend a bundle to make a 1965 drive like a 2005!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Way too much for me. I'm happy with how my fintail drives, although IMO it does drive about 20 years newer than it actually is.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yes, those cars are quite decent in handling and braking.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    And even then, it feels like it leans a bit, the steering isn't exactly sports-car like, the automatic doesn't help anything.

    On the thread topic, the car was my everyday car through college and wasn't too troublesome, but it did need constant maintenance and it had a few bumps along the way (transmission cooling line broke, generator died, brake line leaked and then brake seized, etc).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, it's not a sports car but it's not SCARY like an American car in terms of braking and cornering.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    As little steering resistance as '60s GM cars had, Chryslers with power steering had even less.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    As little steering resistance as '60s GM cars had, Chryslers with power steering had even less.

    I briefly owned a '67 Chrysler Newport hardtop coupe with a 383-2bbl. I don't really remember too much about it, except that I thought my '67 Catalina convertible handled better. Seemed to have a bit better feedback from the road, and a bit more nimble. Maybe "wider was better"? :P
  • sqeeeksqeeek Member Posts: 1
    My grandpa owned 10+ bugs over his lifetime, worked at a service station. Rebuilt / replacement bug engines with 100hp+ are pretty cheap these days, as are travel hair driers (defrosters) and hydraulic brake conversion kits. Throw on some alloy wheels and you've got a pretty sweet ride, IMHO.

    Also, my 1970 Oldsmobile 98 is still running as a daily driver and has served 4 generations of my family so far. (granted, we've rebuilt the thing a few times) and it's reliability beats the pants off my dad's 1996 Ford E-150, so I don't see that much of a problem.

    If you don't know what you're doing, get something newer and japanese. But if you're gonna be taking care of it yourself, bugs are great, and old GM cars will last forever.
  • halsworthyhalsworthy Member Posts: 12
    That is true. I would buy a VW Golf though, for reliability
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You would buy a VW Golf for reliability?

    You are kidding, arent you?
  • tjgofftjgoff Member Posts: 2
    Hello. I am an amateur car enthusiast. When I was 16 I restored, or made decisions about restoring a 1965 chevelle. I did not do a wonderful job, but the point is, I love old cars and would like to try again.
    Can someone help me with the value of a car??? I am looking at a 1967 firebird. The person selling knows little about it. It has a 326 with a 2 speed automatic. He doesn't know the mileage. He said it needs brake work. New tires. The guys said it has been painted, so he is not sure of the rust situation. The guy wants $5,500. It seems to be worth less to me, but I know very little, that is why I wanted to ask the professionals (you guys)!! Please help. What do you experts think??
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,704
    Without knowing the body condition there's no way to know. If there's lots of rust/bondo, I wouldn't touch it. Does it run? Is this a car you love? Make sure that you get something you like, you're going to put LOTS of time into it.

    Check out ebaymotors and hemmings.com for more options. No need to rush into it.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Without seeing the car or at least seeing a bunch of detailed photos, none of us can do anything except guess at it's value.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $5,500 would be a car in "fair" condition, defined as:

    "Presentable. Runs and drives and will pass safety inspection. Generally in need, or approaching the need of a cosmetic restoration. Chrome pits here and there, small rips or tears, paint chips, a window crack, small hole in carpet, etc. NOT dented or rusted and not in need of major mechanical work"

    So if the car, when you see it, seems less than the above description, deduct accordingly.
  • tjgofftjgoff Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the good info. I might look at it, but definitely think $5,500 is too much. He says it does run well, but would need brakes immediately.

    I guess what I should have asked is, is a Firebird with a 326 worth anything, is it desirable? Don't people usually want the 400's and such? But I appreciate the comments.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,704
    Sure, a 326 Firebird is a good hobby car, certainly worth more than a plain-jane sedan is similar condition. And bigger engines make them worth more (sometimes WAY more), that's true too. But you'll pay more to buy one. If you're wanting to make money on your restoration, don't, that's just about impossible for someone like you (or me). So what this means is to figure out what you're wanting with this car. If you are buying it in order to work on it, then lots of options out there. If you're buying it to own, drive, and do the needed repairs, that's different. It doesn't cost less to restore a base Firebird, but you'll recover less of your costs when you go to sell. Better to buy one in good running condition in that case - let the prior owner pay for the major restoration work.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Nothing "wrong" with the 326. It was more or less the standard engine unless you count that oddball six they offered.

    If it "needs brakes immediately" I would guess it needs EVERYTHING brake related. Drums, master cyl etc.

    A 400 would be more desirable but the 326 doesn't really hurt it like the six would.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, good advice. The small V8 is definitely better to have than a 6 cylinder car, but the small V8 will never realize the same prices as the larger engines--as a rough guideline, whatever prices you see for a Firebird 400, you can deduct maybe 30% if it has a 326. On some cars, the price difference between the smallest engine and the largest is....MASSIVE....

    Classic cars, especially during the 50s--70s, when there were so many engine options, are funny this way: If the car only had one size V8, that becomes top dog in value, but if there are numerous engines of increasing power and size, then the pecking order goes according to the engine size.

    In 60s cars especially, Horsepower = $$$, and HP + 4-speed = more $$$.

    Even the option of a 4 barrel carburetor vs. a two barrel on the *same* engine can affect value, and some "tri-power" carb options can affect value as much as a larger engine can.

    1960s BODY STYLE Pecking order (with a few exceptions)

    Convertibles
    2D HT
    2D Post
    Wagons
    4-doors
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited June 2011
    I recently saw a real oddball of a car.

    It was a 1964 Chevy Impala four door sedan.

    It was a six cylinder with a three speed on the column. No power steering or brakes. Just a stripper.

    Compare the value to that with an SS convertable with a 409 4 speed!

    Back in those days, you could order anything. A friend's dad ordered a 1965 Chevy Biscayne Station Wagon with a 327/300 horse engine with a three speeed and overdrive.

    I think it had an AM radio but nothing else.

    Blackwall tires, tiny hubcaps. Talk about a sleeper!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Quite a few 60s era Chevy Sixes are purchased and then rebuilt as 60s "gassers" or drag cars. Of course, the 2-door Biscaynes would be preferred as they are lighter than the 4-doors, and the 2-door post sedans preferred over 2D hardtops (body strength) but a stripped down 4-door with no badges and a big honker of an engine still makes a nice 'sleeper'.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yes, but usually not Impala four doors.

    If I was a dealer in those days, I would be scared to death that someone would order one of these oddball cars and then back out of the deal leaving an impossible car to sell.

    Probably why most manufacturers no longer build cars to order.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The weak spot on Pontiac V-8's in those days were the timing gears. This especially applied to the 389's. The plastic gear teeth would wear out around the 70,000 mark.

    A person who owned one was wise to just have the job done along with a new water pump around 70,000 miles.

    Kinda like a timing belt job on a modern car?

    Otherwise, they were pretty good engines!
  • astphardastphard Member Posts: 24
    I don't really know where to put this, but in one of the archived discussions (about FWD vehicles) several people talked about how much more difficult it would be to maintain FWD vehicles (vs RWD, I suppose). Why is that?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well in the realm of "classics" (which is what this forum is about) that's probably true, since older FWD cars are few and far between, and pretty quirky. If you want to talk about *modern* cars, let me know and I'll direct you to the right place.

    One general rule is that doing clutch or transmission work is more time consuming on a FWD vehicle.
  • astphardastphard Member Posts: 24
    edited June 2011
    Despite some difficulties, I still haven't given up the idea of having a collectible as a daily driver. Here's what I'm currently thinking about:

    -BMW 2002 (or ti or tii)
    -BMW 3.0 CS (or CSi or CSL)
    -Mercedes 280CE
    -Mercedes 350SLC
    -Mercedes 450SLC
    -Mercedes 300CD (turbodiesel)
    -VW Karmann Ghia (but only if it can be modified to get up to decent speeds without wrecking the vehicle)

    I know I probably won't be able to get everything on my wishlist, but I wanted:

    -a backseat big enough for at least small children
    -a trunk that could fit 2 carry-on suitcases
    -some creature comforts like a/c and cruise (though I'd be willing to add these on)
    -ideally 20+ mpg, or at least as close as I can get to that
    -something fun

    I know that BMW & MB repair costs can be quite expensive. But if a clean model was purchased, would $1-2k a year in maintenance costs be sufficient, or would it need more?

    Also, is it even possible to modify a Karmann Ghia enough where it's not torture to drive on an interstate?

    Any comments about these cars, or which you would rank as better/worse (generally, or for me specifically), would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!

    P.S. Shifty, the FWD/RWD question was because I read about it in the Classics archives. Though come to think of it, I think all of these are FWD so does that mean these will have greater repair difficulties?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,704
    If you can find a clean, non-rusted one, I like the 2002. The 3.0 would be long-term work and problems. Of the MBs get the newest, cleanest one that fits your needs, it would probably be the best daily driver choice. But I've always liked the 2002.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    edited June 2011
    All of those are RWD.

    You said you are in Florida, right? I would also worry about rust with the humid climate there. At the least you'd want a car that has undergone a body restoration with proper sealing.

    You won't get 20 mpg out of a US market SLC - those old MB V8s can be real pigs. But I think you could easily keep one on the road for 2K/year if you buy a properly maintained one and know a good specialist. The smaller coupes you mention will be more economical to run, and are able of passing 20mpg on the highway.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    -BMW 2002 (or ti or tii) --- GREAT cars but a Tii is not practical and is very $$$ to repair. Nicest 2002s are pre-1975, manual transmission. Fun, pretty comfy, good on modern roads, lots of parts available. Check for rust of course.

    -BMW 3.0 CS (or CSi or CSL) -- beautiful RUSTBUCKETS, expensive to fix, fussy, demonic, unreliable.

    -Mercedes 280CE --- okay but kinda boring--not Mercedes best years and will never increase very much in value. Unloved model. Pretty hard to find one anyway.

    -Mercedes 350SLC -- lotta car for the money but a gas hog. Watch out for AC/Heat system problems. Worth a shot. The 350s are prettier than later ones.

    -Mercedes 450SLC -- ditto as above, even worse gas hog, though.

    -Mercedes 300CD (turbodiesel) -- solid, economical, reliable, noisy, hard to find one that isn't a completely worn out beater. Also boring but can serve you well, and yes, you can get 20 mpg.

    -VW Karmann Ghia -- more of a toy than a real car, but attractive, easy to fix eXCEPT for bodywork. Some parts are unobtanium, so the only way to buy a Ghia is in excellent condition.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...would $1-2k a year in maintenance costs be sufficient, or would."

    Much would depend on how many miles per year you would drive it. For 10,000-15,000 miles per year, I'd plan on a minimum of $2,000 per year for maintenance and repairs, average, over five years, but probably something more than that. The Karmann Ghia might cost less than $2,000, average.
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