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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    VW is doing well with Diesels. As are Audi, BMW and MB. When a Subaru Outback with a 4 cylinder gas engine can only get 25 MPG and the same vehicle with a diesel gets 40%, that is 37 percent increase. No place in the USA will you find diesel 37% higher than RUG. I just scrutinized my trip across the USA. The biggest difference I found was 40 cents. And only 20 cents more than Premium which the comparable gas Touareg requires. You can have the gas guzzlers, I am tickled to have a diesel after wasting money on gas in the Sequoia for 6 years. And it was not half the vehicle the Touareg is. A big lumbering gas hog. Not to mention the 700+ mile range to pick and choose where you buy fuel. Never had that option with the 300+ mile Sequoia. I don't think you can find any vehicle that offers both gas and diesel that has real world mileage closer than 30%.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cruising down sandy washes is about all I can get Mrs Gary interested in. I do plan to try it in the desert this winter. Hill climbing and rock crawling is more of a specialty. I learned long ago that no matter what you have you can get stuck.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Nor CA corner store snap shot (one of the costliest fuel prices in the 58 state union :)
    ): $ 3.55, $ 3.75, $ 3.85. I am sure it is easy to guess which is which.

    Another interesting gig/trend are the per gal discounts (the ones here are grocery) and CC rebates. The best I have gotten: MINUS -$1.00 combined with 5% CC rebate. I hit the inadvertent jacket pot when I had app 23 gals for a fill.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ...You guys live in the promised land. Be happy. You can see why the European and Japanese manufacturers develop the engines/transmissions/cars they do."...

    It was great to see your take in print ! We must appear as whiners, given what you have to pay for transportation related costs !

    Another solid reason why I have and continue to like diesels ! For me, it is now getting LONG in the tooth, so to speak @ 288,000 diesel miles ! :), even as I have far more gasser miles, as water under the bridge.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Less driving today, mostly with cruise set at ~66mph.

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I guess highline PUG only cars might be the mainstay, unless it receives a tax subsidy like it does in some places.

    I saw a podunk station today where diesel was 50 cents more than RUG.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    that's the price delta in much of usa.
    on my journey, rug is 2.69 in some places. and diesel is about $4.
    generally it's biggest percentage difference i've seen in a loooong time, unfavorable to diesel .
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    My mistake, I meant more than PUG. It was a shocking difference. Back here in civilization, diesel tends to be maybe 10-20 cents at most more than PUG.

    The difference has increased markedly since I got my car - 8 months ago, diesel was about the same as mid-grade. I wonder what the real reasoning is, maybe related to the massive subsidy going to a high priced darling electric car.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Actually from what I can glean, there are plethoras of reasons. To address your swag, indeed, it is one of the reasons.

    It is darn near impossible to get the price per mile driven (fuel) for the "high priced darling electric car", even @ EPA ratings , let alone real world figures. IF there are real world figures, they have kept it remarkably secret. Perhaps we should get that Snow fellow on this. :) This is really an indicator the prices are actually higher than PUG. A former energy secretary floated a $10. a gal by hook or by crook, trial ballon and probably running it up the flag pole was a reason he quit, or was probably ASKED.

    So for example, if I set up a home charging unit (not counting all the permits, installation, maintenance and additional real estate taxation and costs) I am instantly @ the "penalized" per KWH rate. Right now that is @ 37 cents per KWH.

    Now of course this was highly touted @ 8 cents per KWH, so really fuel is more like 4.63 TIMES higher.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    That's because big oil foots the bill in Alaska.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    ". . .there are plethoras of reasons. . ."

    Hmmm.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Here is one tiny little one.

    The cost of one barrel of oil (in Saudi Arabia) is $2.00 per BARREL. The same oil sheik who said this (to Leslie Stahl of CBS's 60 mins, for TV special, so it can be googled and watched) also mentioned that Saudi Arabia likes to sell its oil @ $60 per barrel to keep the kingdom in the style to which it has grown accustomed. :):( Right now the price per barrel is FAR higher than that (as of this past Friday, $100.81 a barrel) !! :(
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I think we need Richard.....

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,789
    They sell the diesel in the Forester model as well. Not sure about everywhere, but certainly in some places!

    http://www.subaru.ie/index.php/subaru-models/forester/core-technology/282
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    I had the DSG filter and fluid (app 4.6 L) changed, with Vag.com DSG recalibration (dual clutch "automatic" transmission). There were absolutely no issues @ 65,000 miles. The old fluid looked almost like the new stuff. After the change and recalibration, I could tell almost no operational differences. Based on the information gleaned by gurus and anecdotal data, it appears I could have easily gone 80,000 miles. (oem recommended 40,000) The fuel filter was changed and Vag.com recalibration done. Also had the brake fluid flushed, first time in 4 years. The old stuff almost looked like the new stuff out of the metal can (DOT4). I asked the guru how the brake pads and rotors looked (before rotating the tires). He just cocked his head sideways and said it hardly looked they were used them much. (app 80% of F/R brake pads left).

    Next thing due (in 25,000 miles) are oil and oil filter change. Will probably change out the air and cabin filters then also. Unscheduled BUT scheduled are the tires MIGHT hit 90,000 miles. I skipped a rotation or two (probably two) which might have hurt them. :):(
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited October 2013
    I just put about half the miles over the last two days on cruise control. The VW Touareg TDI has the best cruise control I have ever used. Put it on 70-75-80 MPH up hill down hill it holds the speed with out ever downshifting. I am not talking scrubby little up hill runs. We hit 7550 feet today out of Showlow AZ. It is amazing the torque of that engine. Last tank was 27.2 MPG with mostly uphill driving. We are now in Albuquerque at 5200 ft. Heading down to the plains and flatland will be checking the mileage on those runs. The portion driven on the Interstates is mostly 75, so I lock it on 80 MPH and the tachometer just sits at 2000 RPM. Could never do that with the Sequoia V8. It would drop down on the slightest hill and kick down to 4th gear and scream like a banshee to maintain 75 MPH on long hills. How many gas SUVs can maintain 80 MPH uphill and get 27 MPG doing it?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,421
    I don't subscribe to AUTOWEEK anymore. I get my car news as it happens here on edmunds. An ad for AUDI TDI clean diesel, a write up on the 2014 MB E350 BlueTec, a 1st quarter update on a GL 350 BlueTec, & a 3 page ad for the Chevy Cruze Diesel.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Anybody have any takes?

    This is probably WAY off topic, but Michelin Primacy MXV4's still (overall) are #1 for the VW Jetta TDI's, albeit not best in many to all test parameters (205/55/16 H). They still come oem, if one is lucky enough to get them as such. Ours came oem with the Bridgestone EL 400-02's which are NOT well rated (#24th), yet will probably meet or exceed 90,000 miles. Two tire experts help me to get the top 5 down to top three, adding:
    2. Bridgestone Turanza Serenity Plus
    3. Continental PureContact W/EcoPlus Tech.

    The kicker here is any of three are almost within whiskers difference/s with the two being $105 to $110 cheaper per set.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    WSJ: Gasoline Prices Skid as Diesel Burns

    Just wait till they start EXPORTING RUG/PUG :)

    The real back story here, which is becoming the front story (despite Al Gore types trying to hide or poo poo it) is the US being recognized as one of the largest oil, natural gas and coal producer in the WORLD. We also could have a virtual lock on solar,wind, hydro, thermo and bio diesel production, from existing industrial waste streams and new and old algae production . This is not even to mention fission and fusion power plants ??? There has never been and is really no shortage of opportunity for abundance.

    The oil and natural gas infrastructure has been purposely left woefully deficient for literally generations ! Just think we all, you all should be walking around in custom boots and ten gallon hats ! :) Yee haw !

    Passing gas (albeit natural and i.e., to Japan, since the nuclear plant closure) will be the "new" American growth industry.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    If you are still in ABQ and hungry, check out the Frontier Cafe.

    68° and sunny out there today - we had snow all day but overnight rain washed it away. Lots of people have had to turn on their diesel burners this week. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Fall has been hitting in Tahoe. 25 to 29 degrees over night. Majority of heating is natural gas and propane (much lesser percentage).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    When (if) the East Coast gets hammered I guess that'll bump up diesel prices too. Still in 50s/60s in NYC.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Most of the ski industry is praying for a minimum to a maximum snow fall this year ! :)
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    GM must be monitoring this discussion, Buick is adding a diesel [probably the Verano] --- credit where credit is due.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    I don't think many places are using diesel generators to run the lifts any more, so that should help keep your fuel prices down. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Actually it's a good question. Thinking back last year, we passed a couple of equipment buildings that really had the sound of diesel generators doing the lift action. It didn't cross my mind to even ask.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    Not sure around the Midwest but Bogus was all-electric with backup generators at the lifts. But it's a pretty "urban" hill.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Now you got my curiosity up. (not that it is a pressing issue, but is rather opaque?)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Valley

    This one is the closest.

    Got to love the internet everything you didn't want to know about US ski lifts?

    http://www.skilifts.org/old/index.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I took my sister and and family to Sadies in Alb for dinner last night. 18 of us in all. It was pretty good. I like New Mexico sauces. We are in Perry OK tonight. Just filled up and hit 29.74 MPG. With about half the 555 miles on I40 cruising at 80 MPH. So smooth, quiet and effortless at that speed. Then headed to US60 out of Amarillo and drove across most of OK at 70+ MPH. Hit 96 MPH passing 2 Semis and a PU truck. Love driving this vehicle. We won't have much Interstate on the last 669 miles. Taking US 60 the rest of the way across OK and MO. Miss all the big cities that way. Looking forward to Pork BBQ at Mike & Zach's in Poplar Bluff.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    There's nothing like a foodie roadtrip. :-)

    Although you can't eat and get gas.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Just got to love these kinds of road trips !! Happy trails ! We are glad you are updating this thread from time to time !

    It would seem you are liking the bigger turbo and less friction (designed) in the 13 VW T TDI. The upshot: (indicators) it is good for 15 hp and 1mpg H EPA better.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited October 2013
    So far the diesel prices were steady in AZ, NM, TX. I just filled with CC at Phillips at $3.64. I saw Regular in NM this morning for $3.01 with diesel $3.79. It would still cost me a lot more to drive the Sequoia with that big of a spread. Touareg TDI is at 14.9 cents per mile over 3271 miles I have owned it. The Seqouia is over 20 cents a mile even if I could get $3 gas. The spread in CA is still 20 cents or less between D2 and RUG. About equal to PUG.

    Just as an aside the station with the $3.01 gas this morning still had PUG at $3.54.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am expecting even better on this next tank with slower highway speeds. I always go with the flow on the highway. And those interstates roll along at 80 MPH on both I40 and I20. With that 400+ ft lbs of torque there is no strain on the longest uphill grades. Nothing like the screaming of a gasser trying to keep up on the hills. I am sure I can squeek a lot more miles out of the T-reg when I get over the rush of kicking it from 60-90 passing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    LOL ! For a close to 5,000# vehicle, and supposedly SLOW diesel, it does giddy up and went :)

    It sure does bring on the gratitude (other elements also) when for the same weight I have been used to getting 14 to 17 mpg and at much slower speeds.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Was talking with a guy a couple months ago, and he claims that new brake fluid is manufactured with a higher allowable moisture content than of yesteryears. Profit being the motivator of course..

    I had a jug of Prestone brand in my hand at the time. He also said that I would be better off buying the quantity I need at a local old time auto parts store who carries it in bulk. I thought that odd...bulk brake fluid? I wonder how it is dispensed...in a vacuum somehow? You would think that bulk brake fluid would be more prone to taking on moisture than a smaller sealed contr, no? Any thoughts from the thinkers on this board? I got the impression that what was available as bulk, simply had the superior manufacturing process in the beginning, so had a lower moisture content right outta the gate.
    For now, I set the Prestone back on the shelf.

    Also, to the two owners here of a '12 and '13.. does the VW T have a rear hatch window that pops open?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    Interesting - looks like the "new" silicone fluid does not allow moisture to enter the system (assuming none got in there in the first place). That would be the "silicone/DOT 5-based formulations". All per wikipedia.

    Can't mix or match so my vote for the "usual" stuff would be a small container, since the usual stuff can absorb water from the air. But if you keep the lid on the jug...?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    The whole need for a fluid to absorb moisture (keep in suspension..like where does it go in a so-called sealed system??...not counting the vent hole in the reservoir) in hydraulic brakes has always been a bit of a mystery to me from the beginning. I guess it must originate from condensation due to heat cycling of the fluid during harder stops in cold temps? But if the stuff comes entirely 'free' of moisture and if you keep Quicky Lube type hands of the 'check fluid levels' list, and if the environment in which the car is manufactured and/or serviced, is humidity controlled (IOWs, don't leave the cap off your reservoir in July in FL while you go in for lunch) then just how much moisture can be in there in the first place?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    He is absolutely correct on almost all counts. The issue is finding a TRUSTED supplier. For some reasons, a lot of places (that do brake fluid flushes) or users do not use those chemical detection (moisture) tabs to check for "allowable" moisture content.

    Before the local guru did the (my) BF flush, he used one. Right from the git go, he signaled it was within tolerance (thumbs up), signaled me (come zee here) to take a look and listen to the explanation. Needless to say I was impressed (gave him thumbs up), but begged off (nine nine I already knew the scenarios, as I could see the correct colors) and told him to change it anyway.

    As you probably know there are tools for the trade to actually analyze (new/used) BF. Again this might be another bit of TMI for the passenger vehicle fleet trade.

    So EVEN with a VW oem recommendation for 2 year BF flush (mileage immaterial) and with very high quality brake fluid, even after 4 years, it was still good to go (after 65,000 miles). I used DOT 4 (Pentosin- alternative to oem DOT 4 VW BF). As I said, it came in a metal container(not sure of exact material). I am sure that was VERY expensive ! I just put it in the recycle bin!? Seems a waste !? Nice looking and well made can.

    No ! (for my 12) On the pop open (no hinge) rear window, on your last paragraph.

    The VW Touareg TDI 's BF Flush was done by the dealer @ under 35,000 miles as part of the included maintenance.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    2014 Ram 1500 Crew Cab EcoDiesel: Track Tested

    image
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,789
    It's plenty, especially for a half-ton where the vast majority of them are used as expensive-to-operate commuter transportation. Plus, I strongly suspect that this truck will perform very well at or well over its rated capacities, which basically means that an average buyer can use the thing for anything they put to mind.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    It is about time ! Assuming no "glitches" big or small, this drive train combination on a so called "main line" pick up truck (1/2 ton) has the potential to be an absolute game CHANGER !!!

    Chrysler could trump both FORD & GM for literally years to come down the road a piece, by offering the 8/9 speed and a V8 Cummins turbo diesel as the second TDI option (450 to 550 # ft of torque) !!!!!!

    25 mpg for a 6k # PU truck vehicle is really a high water mark: Crossing the Rubicon so to speak.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Now 25 mpg might not sound like a real lot in comparison: to say, the multiple decades long quest for the Toyota Prius to nail down 50 mpg. Indeed this might be seen as a futile quest in light of the off the shelf diesel technology, which has existed for multiple generations to get 75 mpg (example, VW Polo).

    But I think if one approaches from one of the hosts view, advanced by an Edmunds.com article- "gallonage" for a buzz word, if one will; it is almost a tsunami/radical like type change, albeit slo-mo.

    Not long ago, if one got 15 mpg from a PU truck/SUV that was good. So 25 to 30 mpg is between 67 % to 100 % better. On the savings side, that is 40% to 50% !!!!!! The real nexus here is more like: that puts the majority of the (light truck to large car) market (75%) potentially saving 40 % to 50%. So for the small car market to duplicate this massive change, i.e., a Prius needs to post 83.5 mpg to 100 mpg.

    Now when you combine this with the recognition AND execution of USA being and having the greatest energy assets in the figurative and literal WORLD: oil, natural gas, thermal, nuclear: fission/ fusion, hydrogen, wind, solar, bio (diesel) algae and coal and PRODUCER, a lot of conclusions are really foregone. One conclusion might/can be: that turns the US from a net/net IMPORTER to a exponential potential to be a LIFELONG EXPORTER of energy products.

    Getting back to the TDI, for the fact that CA state requirements do not require (most times) a chain up in the mountains with 4 WD/AWD (when required); one thrill is getting 31/33 mpg, when I might get 14 to 17 mpg or 121% to 94.1% BETTER mpg. Do I really want or need AWD ? Absolutely NOT. The flip side is I would rather be getting closer to 40 mpg like Fintail's posts :)
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,934
    Yes, that's plenty.

    too bad it has a $2850 price gap to overcome, and probably even more in the real world where, in most other brands, dealers are reluctant to deal on diesels while firesaling the gas equivalents.

    But $2850 is over 900 gallons of RUG at today's NJ prices ($3.15 at the station I pass in my town in the morn). That is a full year of fuel in the hemi truck.

    I guesstimate about $500 fuel savings per year, so nearly 6 years before getting that money back. THAT is what makes it a tough sell.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    On the face of it, if one plans to keep a PU truck 6 years or less. One can also expect better TDI resale values. Articles, read in passing indicate MOST PU truck owners tend to keep vehicles longer, an average of 10.5 years.

    Fuelly.com shows Ram @ 16.2 mpg (we don't know the TDI's mpg) SO ASSUMING 25 mpg for 10.5 years (say 15,000 miles per year) that is 157,500 miles/16.2 to 25 mpg or 9,722 gals vs 6,300 gals or 3,422 gals SAVED (*4 per gal)=$13,688. Another metric here is app 85,550 MORE miles. So does it make sense (IF, IF, IF, IF) to spend $2.9k to SAVE $13,688 over the consumptive life of the PU truck? AND get higher (unknown) resale value?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,934
    resale value is a good point. Could very well be that the extra cost is a wash if, let's say, in 4 years, it is still worth $2500 more.

    Your assumption, however, that gas and diesel cost the same is off, at least in my neck of the woods, and I would imagine in most places .... at least right now.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 241,012
    Your assumption, however, that gas and diesel cost the same is off, at least in my neck of the woods, and I would imagine in most places .... at least right now.

    At the moment, my local station here in Colorado has RUG at $3.199 and ULSD at $3.689.

    Fuelly.com shows Ram 16.2 mpg (we don't know the TDI's mpg) SO ASSUMING 25 mpg for 10.5 years (say 15,000 miles per year) that is 157,500 miles/16.2 to 25 mpg or 9,722 gals vs 6,300 gals or 3,422 gals SAVED

    Using the above numbers for MPG we come to a total of $31,100 spent on RUG and $23,241 on ULSD, a savings of $7859 over those 10.5 years. Back out the $2500 price premium for the diesel to begin with and you're down to $5359 saved, or $510 each year .. put another way, only $10/week.

    I'm not advocating against diesel, just want to show that the savings may not always be as great as some might think.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    No, that was not my assumption at all. RUG/PUG/ULSD can and do fluctuate all different times, in all different directions and for all different reasons, etc. . As you probably know the only way to capture your anecdotal figures are to add up your RUG/PUG and ULSD tank fuels costs over the figures it takes to run the 150k plus miles. I think you would agree that is pretty onerous for discussion purposes and does not invalidate the concept nor thought processes. What will vary are the actual figures.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    So if you are telling me that over that time period, you are getting a minimum of 36,317 miles (to 53,259 miles) EXTRA commute miles, you would pass?

    Wish we could have your fuel prices in CA !! Or a state or fed tax credit for the differences :)

    There's a joke here somewhere?… if I had your money, I'd throw mine away?
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 241,012
    So if you are telling me that over that time period, you are getting a minimum of 36,317 miles (to 53,259 miles) EXTRA commute miles, you would pass?

    Wait, what? I was basing my number on an equivalent number of miles driven - 157,500 from your example.

    And, I absolutely recognize that fluctuating prices in different parts of the country will return different results for my analysis.

    Wish we could have your fuel prices in CA !! Or a state or fed tax credit for the differences

    Having grown up in Southern California - and a visitor from time to time to see family - I'm appalled at the price difference in gas from there to here. No way I could see myself moving back there.

    All that being said, there are a lot of VW TDI's here in Colorado - mostly Jetta sedans and sportwagens. I think there are lots of vehicles that would benefit from a diesel option - the 1/2 ton Ram pickups and the soon-to-market Buick Verano are just two.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    ..."157,500 from your example. "...

    Right! . The only thing that indeed DID change were the price pet gal @ your location (adjustment). I just converted the price difference into miles. The gals SAVED/consumed are still the same given the same mpg. For me, the miles represent (@ your prices) app 2.19 to 3.2 years of commute miles (16,550 miles per year)
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