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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2013
    The big plus being Made in USA.

    Good point - probably was something in the bid about requiring a certain percentage of US parts content or assembly.

    Tybee isn't all that big so they really don't need much range on a tank - friend of mine lived there while he was in nursing school and he'd canoe around the island for exercise a few times a week (always with the tide). Good fish houses there to idle in front of though.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Most here have the Explorers loaded to the gills with electronics. No wonder we are going broke."...

    Up in these parts also ! I had one jut recently almost run up my tail pipe in the #4/4 lanes (no light or sirens).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."I wish our police septs were a little more interested in saving the tax payers money."...

    The last time I went on a ride along, the officer said he normally got 14/15 mpg.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mercedes is still in the lead this year for the Luxury market. With BMW close behind.

    Mercedes-Benz's BlueTEC diesel models recorded sales of 1,724 for the month, up 8.0%, and 15,092 year-to-date, an increase of 9.9% from the 13,738 units sold in November 2012.

    BMW does not say anything about their Diesel sales.

    As of the end of November:

    BMW YTD 271,891
    MB YTD 279,501

    If anyone on this thread cares, Lexus is a distant 3rd with YTD of 239,090. They need to get off the stick and start offering diesels in the the USA.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    From what I know, Lexus doesn't have diesel anywhere. There used to be a diesel IS designed for Europe, but it was dropped, probably in favor of even duller hybrids.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think the good/bad news are hybrids are indeed versatile. VW, BMW, MB, et al, all see the (hybrid) writing on the walls, (more like ugly in your face graffiti) and offer hybrids. So for example, VW Touareg is offered in a supercharged hybrid gasser version. EPA rated @ 24 mpg or 1/2 mpg better than gasser. The marketing advantage is "better" fuel mileage than either the V6 gasser and a mythical V8 and the PUNCH of a V8 when one wants it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If not for the fancy Camry ES350 and the Faberge Egg RX they may as well shut the doors. Those two account for 65% of Lexus sales. I don't think they sell enough Lexus in the rest of the World to keep the factories open. Not sure why they have not just added them to what they build here in the Toyota factories. Probably political pressure in Japan.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Indeed and both are getting very long in the tooth. Now I personally do not see that as a "BAD" thing. However, current market wisdom/s is/are (sex) novelty SELLS !! They have been riding on the "reliability/durability" reputation and for a long time.

    So for example the 14 Chevrolet Impala was rated #1 in Motorweek's episode test of "FULL" sized sedans . The (Toyota) Avalon, while being good didn't even make the top 5 in the testing. Not bad for a retired but recycled Caddie platform?

    But I think it will be hard to ignore the "SMALL" suv segment (Honda CRV, Toyota Rav4)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Hey, the ES is a fancy (and better looking) Avalon now, it's moving up. I guess it shouldn't be a surprise, as some say, Lexus = Luxury EXperiment for the US. I am surprised there aren't more US built models too, as some RX are built in Canada. Some kind of prestige thing involved, or maybe the US is only good enough to make Camrollas.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    An efficient high power engine mated to a hybrid seems like the best of both worlds - when most of them so far are tired hamsters on treadmills mated to a hybrid. I am not against hybrids per se, just have to find one that can be useful when driven in anything but a distracted daze.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Well they are well thought of and do work well in diesel/hybrid and natural gas railroad engines !! :) But yes that is way outside our chosen topic.

    However hybrids in gassers do preserve their $ premiums (unfortunately) The issues (for me) are price to performance ratios (not good in my opinion).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    That's right, hybrids someone have resale - although I bet in the upper range they don't, like the seldom-bought S400 hybrid or the invisible white elephant LS600h.

    Diesel hybrid does make sense - economical yet powerful high speed driving combined with efficient and strong (if you do it right) low speed. Gasoline hybrids seem to keep it weak for most situations right now, or their drivers do anyway.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    This is a very small, but actually very HUGE issue. There are no (if very few) passenger diesel/hybrids on the market !! It is probably the classic chicken/egg scenario. It will probably not be overcome anytime soon. The reason why most passenger gasser/hybrids are kept "weak" as you say, is to appeal to the "ECO" kool- aid, eco snob sets.

    I would call the VW Touareg supercharged gasser/HYBRID ANYTHING but weak. Off the top of my head 428 # ft of torque stands out. (more than the 406 # ft in a diesel).

    Trust me if the gasser hybrid were the better solution for locomotives GE (an Obama supporter subsidiary :) ) would not have put out the diesel/hybrid locomotives.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Straight diesel is the best way to go. I think hybridization mucks up the advantages offered by diesel. Gas hybrids are a failed attempt to compete with diesel. Sure you can buy a wimpy Prius and match the diesels offered in the USA. EXCEPT in driving experience. I'm still waiting for someone to match the records set for long haul with VW diesels. Even Wayne Gerdes with a hybrid could not come close to a Passat TDI.

    Expert hypermilers Wayne Gerdes and Chris Bernius just set a new Guinness World Record for the lowest fuel consumption by a gasoline hybrid car traveling through all 48 contiguous US states.

    The two drivers travelled 7,899 miles over two weeks in a Kia Optima Hybrid with no modifications or special equipment, achieving an astounding 64.55 miles per gallon average. Guinness World Records verified the attempt and presented the drivers with a certificate during a ceremony held Monday at Kia Motors' West Point, Ga., manufacturing facility.

    Didn't take Wayne long to figure out which vehicle was mileage king.

    Long-distance drives are awesome, but they will make you keenly aware of your vehicle's fuel consumption. The more you have to stop to fill up, the more annoyed you might become. Enter the 2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI, which set a world record of 77.9 miles per gallon over 8122 miles. That's certified by the Guinness Book of World Records, folks, but there are a few provisos to keep in mind.

    First, you probably won't be able to cross the contiguous U.S. on just 105 gallons of fuel. Wayne Gerdes and Tom WInger did, though, crushing the previous record of 67.9 mpg and the hybrid record of 64.6 mpg. Gerdes runs CleanMPG.com, and has devoted a good portion of his life to squeezing fuel economy records out of automobiles. Gerdes offers a few tips, like planning in advance to react to the topography so you can coast down hills and exploit momentum, avoid heavy braking and acceleration, and stick to the speed limit.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    I would agree !! I think my experiences with the 03 Jetta TDI (yours with the TDI also) vs OP's (other peoples) 04 "Pious" 's was a real world case in point.

    I know that you can probably guess where I am/would going with this, given your post, as can most folks who have followed this thread for a while.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What really cracks me up is Wayne and I used to get into very heated debates over Hybrids vs Diesels about 10 years ago. It is a pleasure to see him set such an astounding record with a diesel. Congratulations is in order.

    Now if he would make that record run in an SUV we could come full circle. I think the GLK 250 Bluetec is the one to use. Or maybe the Q5 TDI. I see some pretty good numbers already for that diesel.

    I notice with the Kia Optima hybrid used to set the record. It has a very small trunk. You give up a lot to have a hybrid vs a diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    LOL ! Who knows, perhaps those earlier in the tooth conversations between you both were the catalyst in getting him to set the record in a diesel !

    There is really an inequality, in that the record (77 mpg +) was set in a PASSAT vs the KIA !! . Much much more equal would have been a Passat vs Avalon/Camry hybrid. LOL, Good luck with either comparison!!! ??? :) As you say you really do give up a lot in a hybrid. Funny, the Prius was not on that player list ! ?

    I think there are also far more techniques in driving a diesel (once one understands the differences, similarities, exceptions) that yield far better results (including MPG) than the same in any gasser and gasser hybrid.

    I think that setting another record this time with a diesel SUV would be the gasser/hybrids eco snobs ultimate nightmare. The record set in the Kia was already 1 nail in the coffin for the false narrative. The VW Tiquan tips the scales @ 3397#'s. I also know the GLK 250 is app 4k#'s.

    Now for me it is easy to imagine a sort of frankenstein Tiquan with the 3.0 L TDI with an 8 speed A/T or a beta test DSG 9/10 speed with the E288 upcoming 2015 TDI. (280# ft?) My guess here is a conventional 6/7 speed M/T would probably STILL do better.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Let me know when Wayne breaks the 12,665 miles per gallon record. :)

    I'm going to be thrilled if I ever simply double my mpg from 20 to 40.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    12,665 mpg might be the VERY reason it will NEVER hit the market ! :)

    http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/27/volkswagen-produce-260-mpg-plug-in-xl1/

    To Fintail's fantasy's: diesel/hybrid plug in: 260 mpg. (article quotes VW's 7 speed DSG)

    For our 1 to 3 person 14,256 miles commute (up to 42,768 miles per year commute requirement) it would use 55 gals per year. GEEZ, we can't have that, now can we? :) It would appear in the case of 3 person's, we'd have to strap one to the roof rack.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Wasn't there a sun powered vehicle that went all over Australia? How about this one:

    The world's first solar-powered family car that can travel 420 miles on a sunny day and creates TWICE as much energy as it uses

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2385976/Stella-solar-powered-fami- ly-car-travels-420-miles-sunny-energy-positive.html

    Only practical solutions considered. For now and the forseeable future Diesel is king of the mileage. Winning over one hybrid owner at a time. ;-)

    The Passat TDI drive began June 7 from VW's U.S. headquarters in Herndon, Va., and ended when the team returned there June 24.

    "Obviously, we employ some specialized techniques to achieve such figures, but there's no reason why owners of TDI vehicles shouldn't be able to achieve great mileage," Gerdes says.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    ..."Obviously, we employ some specialized techniques to achieve such figures, but there's no reason why owners of TDI vehicles shouldn't be able to achieve great mileage," Gerdes says."...

    Indeed for me, I try different techniques, really to stay..... (amused) ....zzzzzzz
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Funny, the Prius was not on that player list ! ?

    That is funny. Would you want to drive a Prius 15 hours a day cross country??? They do best as taxi cabs in town.

    Now for me it is easy to imagine a sort of frankenstein Tiquan with the 3.0 L TDI with an 8 speed A/T or a beta test DSG 9/10 speed with the E288 upcoming 2015 TDI. (280# ft?) My guess here is a conventional 6/7 speed M/T would probably STILL do better.

    The Audi Q5 TDIs are posting some 32-34 MPG averages on Fuelly. May be the perfect choice for a showdown. The Q5 is offered in gas, gas/hybrid and diesel. The hybrid has a lower EPA rating than the diesel and costs $5k more. Also requires Premium Unleaded. If it is like the Touareg Hybrid the dealers are dumping them at below cost.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    For any number of reasons, that's (32/34 mpg) VERY good !!

    But here are a few reasons, given your post.

    1. the EPA is 20/28 mpg

    2. way cool given 4,079 #'s

    3. AWD vs 2 wd front

    4. 8 speed A/T vs 6 speed DSG

    Aka, 14.3% to 21.4% better H fuel mileage.

    While I do not know the exact toll 682 #'s more takes in a Q5 (4.079 #'s) vs Tiquan (3,397 #'s), I know there is at least SOME. Now IF I use the 1 mpg per 100#'s rule of thumb, THEN up to +/- 6 mpg.

    A safe swag would be +/- 3 mpg.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Q5 has the same drive train as the Q7, Touareg and Cayenne. With less weight than the others it should get better mileage.

    For real high mileage SUV the Tiguan 2.0 TDI is the future. Not sure I would down grade that far. BUT, who knows?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygYZnsf9Fe8
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Most diesel-hybrids on the market are trains, and they are not weak at all!

    My whole house shakes when one goes by, so I would say that NVH is still an issue there :)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Trainspotters would agree that seeing and feeling a new diesel locomotive would give them a New Vehicle High. :)

    (Don't dare mention that you meant Noise, Vibration and Harshness).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2013
    2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI Jump Starts a Plug-In Hybrid

    image
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    All I know is, I gotta take the Cruze diesel on her first long trip, to Utica, NY. I'm gunning for 55 mpg.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,780
    Hahahahahha! Gotta love it. The hybrid's battery died while it was plugged in to charge the battery.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Bad enough worrying about one battery. But two to keep charged and happy is too much. I know all vehicles are complex today. Seems hybrids are off the chart complex. I guess I wouldn't try working on my T-Reg TDI, so it is not a real issue. I overhauled a lot of engines when I had to. I would not know where to start with today's vehicles.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    For in town use, wouldn't the hybrid beat the diesel? So for those city commuters it might work out better?

    Also, the entire point of the gas/electric is to allow the Atkinson cycle, using the electric to boost low RPM performance. That wouldn't be much use in a diesel application, since it already has plenty of power at low RPM.

    (I realize that the hybrid also has regenerative braking and shutdown at lights)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Looks like Ford has reached their peak on the C-Max. Down 50% over November last year.

    https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/2013/12/03/Novem- ber13sales.pdf
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    ..."All I know is, I gotta take the Cruze diesel on her first long trip, to Utica, NY. I'm gunning for 55 mpg"...

    Fuelly.com shows 51 mpg to be an outlier (1 of 47), so it might be a tad optimistic. That being said....

    If it is anything like the VW TDI's, the computer is really calibrated to shift for best mpg (fastest upshift @ lowest rpm). So... firm but not lead foot acceleration and get to the LOWEST rpm with full torque. So for example on the VW TDI's that is 1,750 rpm. Now I do not know what speeds (the lowest rpm for full torque) that converts to in the Cruse TDI , so adjust according to comfort and feelings of safety levels. Lowest rpm @ full torque will be a great baseline (place to start).

    Now I do not normally follow my own advice, even as I know how to get between 62 to 59 mpg. I like to run it more at 2,100 to 2,300 rpm (usually higher, seems to be optimum for combined systems) But then, I am ok with only 48 to 52 mpg ! :) On the 09, I am fine with 42 to 44 mpg. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    VW TWIN UP ? diesel electric.

    The funny part is the environmentalists are literally choking off the (domestic) mining permits needed to mine needed materials to make lithium ion batteries, ah the very (storage of power) systems the environmentalist are saying is the kool- aid that will save the planet !! I bet NONE of us can guess the major reason WHY !! ?? :) You can't even MAKE this stuff UP !!! It appears the second coming of Christ (which most enviro cons don't believe in) will happen before (domestic) mines will happen.

    They are swaging 30 miles on 8.6 kWH consumption (almost laboratory conditions) . To me personally, this makes no sense till 200 to 300 miles per charge (even I know this is illusionary). FURTHER even if it gets there, @ what I have been mandated to pay per KWH , the electrical portion and cost per mile driven is way more than diesel (@ 50 mpg !! ) That is the good news !! I understand the utilities have applied for RATE increases !! (Surprised I am sure) Not to sound rosy, but the electrical grid is already at best unstable !! So closer to 214 mpg with diesel portion, electrical per mile drive is literally 450% more (than diesel) !!!!!!! It might raise the question, ...why bother ?

    I do understand they are probably counting on our collective math skills to drink the kook-aid !?

    The diesel is a figurative and literal putt putt @ 47 hp. Using current ratios, that is (a swagged)79 # ft of torque.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not to mention the World's largest reserves of Lithium is Bolivia. A country the US has screwed over and is rightly hated by them. So China will get the Lithium and we will get the over priced batteries. We have all but shut down resource development in this country.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2013
    What amuses me is how people "suddenly" become environmentalists when someone proposes to dig a mine or put a factory up in their backyard.

    The other funny thing is how scared the electric utilities are running over solar. Ergo the rate increase proposals and regs to discourage people from hooking up to the grid so they can sell the excess to the utility.

    And another interesting trend is how corporate campuses in the suburbs are closing down and the HQ buildings are moving back to the urban core. The new crowd coming in has the coding savvy that the corporations need but they don't want a long commute and they don't want to work and live "in the sticks". Even the married ones with kids are starting to forgo the ranch house with a lawn and intend to stay in the city. (Yahoo)

    And when they have kids or get tired of the fumes, they'll be griping about lung cancer risks and demanding even cleaner public transit. (straight.com)

    Maybe solar powered Amazon freight drones will make the urban air cleaner.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    ..."And another interesting trend is how corporate campuses in the suburbs are closing down and the HQ buildings are moving back to the urban core. "...

    Lots of room in "CORE" Detroit !!! It even has a Democratic majority !!! ??? :) I had read in passing that of a former 144 sq mile city, 44 sq miles lies "fallow" on the tax rolls. This is not to mention the "arrested decay", or the building "products" that are marginally, to no longer really useful.

    There is even an interesting "crisis" in San Francisco, CA (the internet companies moving there, etc.) that if they do not cook the books politically will soon will have a 100,000 student body community college lose their accreditation.

    Of course, I am sure the City and County of SF, CA appreciates the various transit unions striking and threatening to strike every other week.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Looks like the techies are tired of BART and its spoiled brat employees and are hiring their own shuttle services.

    The MTA clarified that shuttles conduct 35,000 rides per day, and individual people can complete more than one trip per day, so the number of total riders is lower), mainly from 200 established public Muni stops near their homes in the city to their offices located in more boring towns 40 or so miles south. Participating companies include Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Apple, Genentech, Intuit and eBay.

    The often enormous and unmarked big white buses have many haters in a gentrifying city where the median one-bedroom apartment now costs $2,795 per month, up 27 percent in just two years. The symbolism has gotten to the point where piñatas in the shape of Google shuttle buses were smashed at a recent public protest.

    http://allthingsd.com/20130721/san-francisco-may-crack-down-on-corporate-shuttle- -buses/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Not many gassers/hybrid owners know what their cars gas consumption per hour rate @ idling, YET when a city structurally slows down traffic, to making it CRAWL to stop fully, the defacto condition is it increases gas/fuel use and massively decreases "productivity". The spin off nexus here is even more pollution.

    So for example I know ( the my two) diesels consume .2 gal per hour. So if (like model (128 oz x.2 gal = 25.6 oz. So on a 42 mpg normal =8.4 miles it COULD have gone vs ZERO.

    40% more (35.84 oz) on a (like model (27 mpg ) gasser could have been 7.56 miles vs zero. The net effect is gasser waste FAR more fuel idling than diesels.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    I think they would be TRASHED/VILIFIED whatever they chose to do or .... not. !!! ??? If they didn't do the shuttles, the vilification would probably be: these "TECHIE" jobs unfairly CLOG the already over worked and over crowded and dilapidated transit system/s. As if they REALLY don't want more jobs and want to get rid of jobs, TO lessen crowding on transit systems !! ???? Without prohibiting these private shuttles, the estimates are already a MINIUM of $ 20 B to rehabilitate the city's transit system, needless to say, they don't have those kinds of funds.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hard to believe I know, but lots of people want to be able to walk or bike around to work and shopping (and want to be able to breathe while doing so).

    The techies want to dial up a self-driving car for the "heavy" trips to Whole Foods. And yeah, the cab companies are already fighting such car share schemes.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited December 2013
    And another thing, thanks to the H1B movement, a lot of code monkeys who move to the first world are used to denser living arrangements, and aren't tempted by that pile of pressboard 'n tyvek located 20 miles from anywhere. Maybe it will finally put enough pressure on the ridiculous public sector "engineer" group who is responsible for so much fuel consumption via their defective traffic controls and poor pedestrian facilities, to actually do something.

    Maybe once the new breed become overpaid middle aged business pros (as they laughably call themselves), things might evolve. As it is, in this tech area, I still see too many of the ruling generation in their Tesla or Lexus hybrid, phone to their ear as they can't figure out bluetooth, headed to their energy guzzling mcmansion or oversized condo. However ,when it comes down to it, the vast majority of people, even young people, are not techies.

    The Amazon drone idea is brilliant PR, but unworkable.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited December 2013
    Fin, what are you trying to say? That people would rather live smashed together like sardines in a can. I say each should have an acre to stretch and be able to play their music without encrouching on other ears. Get a nice high mileage diesel for the drive into the city to work.

    Or even better companies like Apple, Google and Yahoo should build huge complexes with living quarters out away from the cities. Where everyone can live and work and eat together. Kind of like I did in the oil field for 25 years.

    Most people were forced out of the cities to the burbs by higher prices and urban blight. I see gentrification as the pendulum swinging back to clean up the cities. Sadly the poor that had taken up living in the run down cities are in many cases being forced out by HIGH PRICES.

    A guy I worked with at Pac Bell in the 1960s was offered a job in San Francisco. He went up to look for a home. He said every ten miles out the price dropped $10k. He bought 20 miles North. Somewhere near San Rafael. He probably retired and made a fortune on the place years ago.

    PS
    In the late 1960s you could buy a dandy place for $25k.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    He probably died young stressing about his commute. :P

    " Urban areas — defined as densely developed residential, commercial and other nonresidential areas -- now account for 80.7 percent of the U.S. population, up from 79.0 percent in 2000. Although the rural population -- the population in any areas outside of those classified as “urban” — grew by a modest amount from 2000 to 2010, it continued to decline as a percentage of the national population."

    Growth in Urban Population Outpaces Rest of Nation, Census Bureau Reports (census.gov)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    He was a poor telephone guy that could no way afford to live in SF. Even in the 1960s it was high rent. Gas was cheap and 20 miles not much of a commute. I commuted 20 miles during the 1960s from East County to downtown San Diego. I had an old beatup Studebaker that could eke out 20 MPG. Seems like gas was maybe 25 cents a gallon and I was making about $1.75 per hour. Just above minimum wage. Now MW barely buys two gallons of gas. Great part is 1962 there was very little traffic on the freeway down through Mission Valley.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Your post is a very small vignette of a very long and steady effort to gut rural to suburban areas.

    One small example used to be (6.8 M in 1935) millions of small farms/farmers. I think today we are lucky to have 2.2 million and app 3.13 M actual people.

    ..."There are over 313,000,000 people living in the United States. Of that population, less than 1% claim farming as an occupation (and about 2% actually live on farms). In 2007, only 45% of farmers claimed farming as their principal occupation and a similar number of farmers claiming some other principal occupation. The number of farms in the U.S. stands at about 2.2 million.

    What is a farm?

    For the purposes of the U.S. Census, a farm is any establishment which produced and sold, or normally would have produced and sold, $1,000 or more of agricultural products during the year. (Government subsidies are included in sales.) By that definition, there are just over 2.2 million farms in the United States.

    Farm production expenses average $109,359 per year per farm. Clearly, many farms that meet the U.S. Census' definition would not produce sufficient income to meet farm family living expenses. In fact, fewer than 1 in 4 of the farms in this country produce gross revenues in excess of $50,000."...

    http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/demographics.html

    It reminds me of that joke: how to make a small fortune (in farming). Start with a LARGE fortune. So if a lot of rich people want to do that, hey it truly is not for me to judge them. Besides we might miss some good ones ! :)

    The ironic truth of that is Napa, Sonoma, Santa Barbara, Central Valley, etc =., grapes are the basis for some of the finest wines in the world. Whether we NEED these fine wines (or even normal ones) is/are a whole different question/s of which environmentalist's normally ignore.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    "A guy I worked with at Pac Bell . . ."

    Dilbert was developed by a Pac Bell refugee, as I recall (Scott Adams). For several months in the early '80s I thought he worked where I did at AiResearch. He nailed it then and does to this day.

    Yeah, I remember the days when it was possible to buy a place in So Cal for 30 or 40K, even up in the Pacific Palisades.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yep, this small farmer is moving to Chicago, Denver or Atlanta. (realtytoday.com)

    No love for the lung cancer link eh?

    Ok, on the bright side, there may be some relief in diesel prices soon. (Bloomberg).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So maybe RUG will go up to meet Diesel coming down. You know it makes sense. ;-)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited December 2013
    Yes, actually. Many young people are comfortable in multi-unit dwellings, as it's what they have known for a long time, what they can afford, and it is the way people live in most world class cities. Not everywhere is like Tejas where you can get an awesome house for $100/sq ft nor is like the olden days where normal working people could responsibly finance a livable house on an average salary.

    I live in the urban core of a boomburb, almost never hear music, my neighbors are clean, quiet, and employed, the streets are clean and safe (esp by American standards), I can walk to almost anything I need... the standard of living here is higher than many acre tract developments in this country. I choose not to have a long commute, but I still drive a diesel - road trips :)
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