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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
But on the other hand your analogy is valid, because both VW and BMW have high repair and maintenance costs.
A quick glance at the reliability tables of any credible source should verify the problem.
I guess not everyone would factor reliability into a "gas mileage decision" but I do because:
1. The whole idea of buying an economical car like a diesel is to DRIVE IT A LOT, for many years. Trading it in after 1-2 years makes no sense.
Soooooooo.....
2. After the VW Jetta warranty is over, you're kinda screwed, and all that $$$ you saved on gas is lost in repairs and maintenance costs which are no secret to Jetta owners all over the world, or to Edmunds "Cost to Own" tables or to JD Power.
I'm VW shy right now. Electrical glitches, windows that fall into doors, ignition coil foul-ups, class action suits, all this internet flak rattles my cage.
I'm kind of a "big picture" guy, so this is how I think. "Saving" money on fuel has to be a REAL kind of saving for me, not a transfer of funds from Exxon to the VW repair shop.
I have never had electrical glitches or windows falling into doors on my VWs, though I did have that with a couple of my Fords. And my TDI guy is not only a genius, but reasonably priced. He does my 10,000 mi oil and filter change for $60 and that is the special oil filter required and full synthetic diesel engine oil. Again they are now just rating the 2005 models on reliability and VW didn't do badly at all. If the cars were so bad, the resale would not be as terrific as it is. I can sell my TDI any day I want to, what with people always looking for them, but I don't want to. That has to say something.
To me, it just sounds like you are not oriented toward diesels or TDIs and that's fine. They will likely never be high revving engines, in spite of diesel power beginning to overtake gassers. In 10 years, it is likely every manufacturer will offer diesel options. But there will also be plug-in hybrids, electrics, maybe even a fuel cell car or two. The world will be your oyster. You don't have to look for proof that diesels don't make sense for your purposes. I say buy something else and be happy.
As a potential diesel buyer, I really have to pay attention to VW reliability records.
Would you buy a Daewoo based solely on my good luck with one? I doubt it.
Besides, I've owned diesel cars, so I'm no stranger to diesel ownership nor am I hostile to them, nor am I uninterested in the opinions of people who love them. If I were, I wouldn't have started the topic.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/20/trident-diesel-sports-car-not-vaporware-still- -sounds-too-good-t/
That's why everyone publishes statistics for the consumer, isn't it?
Sure, if you gave me a 65 mpg diesel MINI, I'd buy one, definitely. And being a new model, I'd even risk the statistics.
Or a 50 mpg diesel with good reliability costing the same as a Scion xA? Sign me up! Especially if Toyota makes it.
But a 50 mpg diesel MINI or VW TDI, no....why should I? To save $400 a year after buying a car that's not going to be cheap to purchase in the first place?
It's doesn't work for me (yet). I wish it did.
Maybe if I drove 2 or 3 times as much, or if gas went up to $7 a gallon, well sure....
As for diesels (or hybrids or whatever), you cannot just figure a purchase on dollar payback. How do you put an exact dollar value on your satisfaction with one vehicle over another? Even if the payback on a hybrid or diesel is years off, what is the satisfaction of using less fossil fuel to haul my fat [non-permissible content removed] around worth? Are you someone who will trade every four years or drive the thing for 12 or even until it falls apart? The dollar comparisons will tell you something about how much you may spend on fueling, but it doesn't address other factors in vehicle ownership.
Bottom line, I just like diesels. I like driving a car that gets so much from so little. I like that my fuel won't blow up in a collision or in those rare cases while fueling. I like the smell of diesel, but find the smell of gas scary. That's just me.
Once diesel cars become more commonplace and all models are available NEW in all 50 states, this sort of over-valuated resale nonsense will go away, as it will with the Prius.
We were in Spain in March of 07 - most of the taxis are diesels, and they seem to have many more model choices with diesel engines than we do in the USA. All of the drivers I talked to loved them.
As a Dodge 3500 dually CTD owner, I am sold on the efficiency of diesel. You can't buy a heavier duty pickup than mine, and I get nearly 20mpg on the hiway AND it'll pull stumps!
I agree, the resale premium on diesels will disappear once diesel cars are sold in larger numbers.
Diesel fuel costs are another thing that could change a lot. All of our goods are shipped with it. Letting it get too high will ruin our consumer economy.
But meanwhile, there is not a lot of ability to increase current output, as gasoline demand must be met as well. If more of the overall fleet moves to diesel, then refining practices and things like "no refineries in my backyard" will have to change. Resale value may go down, but potentially the cost of the fuel, compared to gasoline could as well. All of this is speculative, and highly dependent on unpredictable world events.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3827436
Maybe the TDI still uses the belts. Considering your service manager is wrong about the 2.0T, I wouldn't trust him with anything...
The GM diesel cars of the 1980s were dogs and fraught with problems, so their resale was nothing to write home about. Resale is high now on diesel cars and will continue to be into the foreseeable future. However, if manufacturers started to flood the market with diesel passenger car choices, the premium would likely start to disappear. It is about supply and demand after all.
But the "out of whack" part of it right now is INDEED due to the issues I brought up in my previous post.
Once there are more diesel cars available, and all the "serious diesel sniffers" (and I mean that in the NICEST WAY POSSIBLE of course) can get the car they want without driving to another state or buying it sight unseen from Ebay Motors, then the out-of-control price/resale craziness will go away and we will be returned to "used diesel market as usual."
I do agree with you that some consumer might perceive that diesel car engines last longer than gas car engines but this perception is fraught with peril, given different manufacturers, levels of maintenance from owners, etc.
Besides, a number like 200,000 miles is frightening to any car buyer, diesel lover or not. I regard cars with that many miles as essentially worthless.
If I were shopping for a diesel car, it would have to be new or near new.
Researching diesels and air quality we will be directed to many sites that have helped the government come out with much stricter diesels restrictions for "new" manufactured vehicles. The reason is the old ones, prior to 2005 were air quality killers.
If we read the last paragraph of the following clean air page it tells us that while saving some fuel the old diesels using the old rules may have been responsible for 19,000 deaths. At least that is the assumption that can be made if the new regulations are said to be able to save 19,000 lives.
http://www.catf.us/publications/view/84
According to the published study in 2004 diesels were responsible for a increase in lung development problems for our children between 10 and 18 years old.
Higher resale value of these older diesels mean very little to anyone truly interested in air quality. And it must be remembered I am a diesel truck fan.
I would like to see a solution but I am nut sure I trust European quality standards to clean up the problem if we adopt a diesel vehicle rate as close as they have.
I will have ot wait to see if the new diesels deliver as promised and until them i tend to agree with the American Lung Association that there are other alternatives.
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=36089
But as long as they can make a P-zero or better diesel car I could be interested until a real viable EV is produced. But I fell that diesel trucks and SUVs will have a future as long as I am still driving.
That is part of my point. I realize diesels have an advantage but I am not positive it is worth it. The particulant filters may or may not work over the life of the car. If not we are back to square one.
As it turns out, the electric starter motor in 1912 pretty much decided the outcome. No more hand cranking, no more waiting for steam to build up, and enough cheap power to go 45 mph for as far as the road went.
The gasoline piston engine is a formidable competitor that seems to be able to re-invent itself whenever it is threatened. I'm not so sure diesel is so very different as to "compete". I'm thinking it will be more of a small, complementary market for a much larger gasoline car market.
If gasoline cars become obsolete, so will diesels except perhaps in very heavy industry situations that can justify the cost of fuel (railroads, for instance).
I would DIE(sel) for this Mini !!
DETROIT--I'm cruising south on Interstate 75 at a steady 64 mph. If the fuel economy gauge in the car can be believed--and there's no reason that it shouldn't--I'm burning one gallon of fuel every 74 miles.
I'm in a 2007 Mini Cooper D, and I am driving it normally. The D stands for diesel. It's a version of the popular hatchback that isn't available in the United States--yet.
Here's a car that lets you have your high fuel economy cake and eat big slices of it, too. Just as important as the Mini Cooper D's ultralow fuel consumption is its fun-to-drive factor. It's off the charts in this car.
The Mini Cooper D is quick. Its 1.6-liter turbocharged diesel engine propels the 2,600-pound hatchback to 60 mph in 9.7 seconds. Plus, the car is good-looking, the chassis is rock-solid, and the handling is as tight as a go-cart.
The engine runs smoothly and, if you keep the windows up, quietly. BMW did a nice job of keeping the diesel chatter out of the interior.
The Bosch high-pressure fuel injection system helps the engine run cleanly. I put my finger into the exhaust pipe expecting it to turn black from soot. It was clean. There was no exhaust residue in the pipe.
The 2001-2006 first generation of the new Mini Cooper also had a diesel engine. But that car, with just 75 horsepower, did not have the chops for the U.S. market--too slow.
The second generation, launched in 2007, has 108 horsepower and easily can run with other economy cars in its class.
BMW plans to offer the Cooper diesel in the United States when the emissions system is robust enough to allow the car to be sold in all 50 states. The company declines to say when that might happen.
Diesel engine technology is expensive. But if BMW could figure out a way to sell the Mini Cooper D for about the same price as a loaded Mini Cooper S, the car could be a big success here.
But they are a long, long way from that. For now, the Cooper D would cost at least $25,000, roughly $7,000 more than the base model.
Equivalently equipped Jetta comes in at $26,400.
I'd really like to see a Turbo Diesel hatchback out the door at around $18,000.
Mini D reviewed
2008 MINI COOPER D
Engine: Inline-4, 1.6 liters, 16v
Output: 108 hp/177 lb-ft
Transmission: Six-speed manual
0-62 MPH: 9.9 sec
Top Speed: 121 mph
Weight: 2601 lb
Fuel Economy, city/hwy: 50/67 mpg
(Based on European figures)
Might take a diesel HYBRID Mini to get 74 MPG in the USA. If they can sell THAT car to me for $35K or less I would buy it.
I will bet there are people out there who, like Prius buyers, are willing to spend extra for a car with fancy gizmos and badges showing how they are reducing oil imports, but just are gun-shy of buying into this "new" hybrid technology. Those folks could be Mini Cooper D buyers.
They could also be Jetta TDI buyers but I agree: anyone checking Consumer Reports or any other type of reliability report is going to give any VW diesel a pass.
boaz: I am very curious to hear if you succeed in obtaining a used Insight. The prices seem outrageous right now, if you can even find one for sale. But I think 70 mpg in the real world is obtainable for anyone who buys one.
Funny sidenote: in my area right now someone has advertised a RAV4 EV with around 30K miles for $60K. Yes, that's $60,000, twice its new price seven years ago. I am surprised, given the context of the RAV-EV and the Insight sale prices right now, that VW dealers aren't getting MAJOR premiums for TDIs right now. But apparently they aren't. The cars are selling for MSRP.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Divide Imperial by 1.2. 70 Impg = 58.3 USmpg. And for future reference, 235.2 divided by () L/km = USmpg
First off, I do read these things, but I weigh a lot of factors in a car buying decision. I have had three VWs and do not regret any of the purchases at all. So your "anyone" is a bit overstated.
TDIs selling for list are no different than Priuses selling for list. A slightly used Prius can sometimes sell for more than a new one. The reason Insight prices are so high is that they are so extremely scarce in an era when gas mileage is all of a sudden far more important to people. Supply and demand again. If VW cut projected TDI production in half, you can bet that prices would go over list at some dealers, even with VW encouraging them not to do that.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/fuel_economy.php
http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/conversions.html
Yes. 74 MPG imperial is about 61 MPG on the USA scale. I could nearly double my mileage on my TCH if that car would consistently hit 61 MPG.
nippononly says, "The cars are selling for MSRP"
What area of the country are you in? Just curious: how do you know they are not marking the car up? Are you going by merely newspaper ads?
You know they can put a different price in the paper and then have a "market adjustment" on the sticker when the buyer gets there, right? That's how some of the hybrid dealers did the markup. It's perfectly legal for them to put the mfg sticker price on the ad and then have the "dealer adjustments" added on the sticker at the lot.
According to Edmunds, a TDI SportWagen here in Phoenix would be stickered at $28,539 with the options I would want and the "What Others In Your Area Are Paying" number is at $28,267.
So unless the dealers are adding something on that Edmunds does not know about, the demand here must not be overwhelming if they can still sell for below sticker. Good news for TDI buyers at least !!!
A-HA !!! I found evidence of dealer shenanigans !!! Went to the local VW dealership link on Edmunds and found the price page for the Jetta SportWagens they have in stock. The TOP three cars were non-TDI and the prices were listed. The BOTTOM FIVE cars were the TDI version and the price is listed as "call for details make an offer" !!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like they are opening up the bidding !!!!
I'd pay $28,539 for a Mini Cooper Clubman D in a heartbeat. Not sure it a Jetta TDI would get my money at this point though. It only comes in a manual tranny, and I'm too old to be shifting gears a hundred thousand times a year !!!
Yes, but by the same token, if VW made 180K per year available like Toyota does with the Prius, I wonder what sales prices would be, eh? And resale.
I am glad that VW is forging the way for other clean diesels here, but I am impatient for there to be a lot more choices among diesel cars. We have heard so much talk in the last couple of years, yet it now seems certain VW will be the only one to get a 50-state diesel car to market this calendar year (not including luxury makes, ie Mercedes). These other automakers with big plans to sell diesel cars need to get the lead out.
larsb: that's just the word among the VW-philes on-line, that the TDIs are selling for around list price. Did someone mention that "what people are paying in your area" was within $300 of list price? That would seem to confirm the word coming out of VW owners' chats...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I haven't fully explored the required maintenance on these DSG's yet. What's the service interval? What's involved in the maintenance? What's the going rate for the service? Can an indie handle this given that it's fairly new technology?
I just love driving it. Seamless shifts. No slip and slop like with a true auto. Power and mpg of a manual. These transmissions will be available from all manufacturers soon. Ford and GM have definite plans to use them here.
$32,000 to "save" gas with a base mini diesel? No thanks. It's not even the luxury model. It's the "stripper".
That reminds me of the article I read about "Clever Mechanic Turns Hummer into an Economy Car!".
Seems like he can make a Hummer get well over 20 mpg! He's even building one for Governor Arnie!
A genius? Well, sort of. His "economy measures" require the installation of a turbo diesel motor for which he charges $35,000.
Added to the cost of the original Hummer and well----I mean, this borders on satire.
That's kind of an odd question..........If they are on pace to sell 180K, how could they NOT have imported 180,000 Priuses to the USA?
They are on pace to sell 283,752 total Lexus/'Yota hybrids in the USA. My guess is that at least 180,000 of that total WILL be Priuses.
I have to ask why?
Nippon,
The guy lives in another state. He isn't happy with the Insight being a two seat car and doesn't drive that much anyway. But when he does drive he sometimes needs to haul some supplies and he ends up using his small truck. While the insight seems to have more room than the Smart to me the last one I was in did get 70MPG on the highway. It just happened to be a bit of a dog on long mountain climbs. But I don't live in the mountains anymore and I don't use the gas I once did. I put gas in the Pontiac once every three weeks and the Tahoe went 9 weeks before my last trip.
However my bicycle has 450 miles on it since June. But for me unless they made an entry level small diesel that was both clean and got 70 MPG it simply wouldn't be worth it. I believe clean diesel technology is every bit as new as Hybrid technology and it is still yet to be tested over time. I wouldn't pay 60K for a Rav-4 EV but the mileage they get per charge would make one perfect for my lifestyle.
I am really only interested in diesel "until" we come up with an alternative to fossil fuel. Unless we discover they have been fibbing and we can expect 500 more years of fuel supply. Yes I remember the 70s and the big lie. :P
1. entry level subcompact or compact (not microcar)
2. Small SUV or crossover
I personally think the idea of a "luxury diesel" car is a mis-step for this country.