What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice · September 2012

I really like the looks of the Grand Cherokee. I have talked to at least 6 owners that love their GCs. I just don't think I am ready to trust an Italian diesel after what Chrysler did with the last Italian diesel entry. If it was a Cummins or Mercedes I would be all over it.

scwmcan · September 2012

I would definately wait to see how the GC diesel works in the first year, but I suspect there will be fewer issues as Fiat has a lot more experience with Diesels than Chysler ever did ( and apparently they make some of the best diesels in Europe) so hopefully they will be able to make things work properly, but of course only time will tell.

stever · September 2012

It'll be interesting to compare 3500 sales numbers in a year or two.

"Buyers of the 3500 line, previously limited to diesel engines only, will be given a choice in 2013 of returning to a gas-fueled 5.7-liter Hemi V-8. Gasoline engines will be popular for snowplow use and will reduce the price of a 3500 pickup by almost $10,000.

"When we told dealers we were putting gas engines in the 3500, it got wild applause," Diaz said about a recent briefing of dealers nationwide."

Heavy-duty Ram truck line going commercial (Detroit News)

gagrice · September 2012

I believe much of the problem with the VM engine in the Liberty was emissions equipment that was just slapped on to meet EPA regs. Any engine today has to be designed from the block up for emissions. That is why we should come to some standards with Europe rather than allow every state and country make willy nilly emissions laws. It adds a tremendous cost to the consumer and in the case of the Liberty diesel, many headaches that EU owners never experienced.

stever · September 2012

I think the Liberty CRD was built to 2005 Euro 4 emissions standards. VM Motori is building diesels now that meet Euro 6 standards which go into effect in 2015. Including one for the JGC in 2013.

KCRam · September 2012

The Hemi was only dismissed for a few years in the 3500 (was last offered for MY2008) - it was dropped for the same reason as the gasoline V10 (very low take rate), but with the front suspension improvements, Chrysler needed to make it available again, as the 3500 is no longer at max front GAWR with most plows. The lighter Hemi is also helped by better gear selection with the 66RFE - a regular cab 3500 4x4 Hemi would make a very capable plow rig.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

KCRam · September 2012

What will also help VM's cause in the North American market will be its use in the new Ram vans. Chrysler has trademarked the names "Ram ProMaster" and "Ram ProMaster City", for the Fiat Ducato and Doblo respectively. The Ducato/ProMaster would likely offer the same 3.0L V6 as the JGC and would make Ram customers more comfortable. I think these vans will do well against the new Ford Transit and redesigned Transit Connect.

One would imagine if Chrysler decides to bring the Iveco Daily here as well (to compete against the Ford Transit T350), it would be the "Ram ProMaster HD".

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

stever · September 2012

Ram ProMaster HD

I had one of those in a homebuilt computer back in '94.

cdnpinhead · September 2012

I'm pining for any one of the cars available in Europe that can't be had in North America.

I've spent the past two days or so driving a C class Mercedes with a 2 litre diesel, and it's been wonderful. Much like the Audis I rented here eleven years ago or the Peugeots I rented in England 5-6 years ago, I got excellent acceleration and very good economy. I tacked a couple of days of personal time onto a 2-week business trip and drove across six of my favourite Swiss passes yesterday, then back through the Black Forest today. I started with a nice drive down from Liege (Belgium) past Spa Francorchamps and on to Switzerland Friday afternoon.

Back in 2001 I did this for the first time and was ready to buy one of these cars immediately upon my return to the States. None were available then (Audi, BMW) and, barring VW, none are available now. A decade plus later, and vehicles that routinely get 42 mpg and deliver much driving pleasure still can't be bought in the U.S. I don't need to wave my **ck in the air, so don't want anything bigger than a 2.0 or 2.5 litre diesel, but I do require a manual transmission.

I even got used to the shutdown "feature" when stopped. The best fuel mileage I achieved, over a full day, was 4.8 litres/100 km. I'll figure out the conversion when I get back to the States, but I think it's pretty good.

Thanks so much, CARB.

ruking1 · September 2012

I do not think there can be any doubt that there are, have been and will remain diesel consumers/markets wanting and needing trucks like these (GM/Chysler/Ford), built to suit. Indeed to my mind I am hard pressed to name any serious European or Japanese competitors. I actually know of others (foreign and domestic), but it is a long way of saying: special (purpose) market niches.

I think articles like this are almost OEM code words for not again this year, a diesel engine for any not wanting or needing stump pulling power/torque. :sick:

gagrice · September 2012

Thanks so much, CARB.

I have been cussing CARB for over a decade, with their lying, diesel hating, wannabe PHD leader. How one person can be allowed to waste so much fossil fuel and go unpunished is a mystery. I say thanks to all the ECO NUTS in CA that elect our worthless legislature.

bpeebles · September 2012

I am not sure if the other followers of this thread follow truck-pulling. For many years, the GM products tend to rule... why? - not necessarily the torque... but that world-class Alison transmission simply does not break.

Truck pulling example

This new Cummins engine may have more torque... but lets see it hooked up to the sled and see what she will do.

Although there are many pulling 'classes'. The "road registered" classes tend to show you who REALLY makes the toughest trucks. As I said above, the GM with their Allision xmission are hard to beat. These trucks commute all week back and forth to work and still can outpull the other guys trucks when hooked to the sled.

Most of the "open" classes where the pullers are allowed to spend any amount they wish opt to use the Allison xmission because it can actually SHIFT GEARS while 1500Hp are passing thru it.

elias · October 2012

thanks gagrice... any plans to test-drive the porsche cayenne diesel !?

gagrice · October 2012

I don't really like to bother dealers unless I am serious about a vehicle. I doubt that I would get fired up over the Cayenne. Though I am sure it would be a lot of fun to drive. Maybe a Carrera if my wife said it was ok to have a mid life crisis. Of the diesels offered by VW/Audi/Porsche I like the Touareg best.

ruking1 · October 2012

According to another web site that clearly lists inventory (for pre determined options, miles within ones zip code to include the USA) shows:

224 (all), 2013 Porsche diesels. Prices range from $ 60.4 k to 94.1 k.

787 (all), 2013 VW Touareg TDI's . Prices range from $ 45.7 to 61.5 k.

gagrice · October 2012

So Porsche takes off about where Touareg tops out. Looking at the list of options on the Cayenne gave me a headache. I would want them all and that would probably make the Cayenne about $150k. I love ceramic disk brakes, but $8100 is a bunch. I think I will leave the Cayenne to folks with bottomless pockets.

PS
I think I would be happier with a top of the line Touareg, than a stripped Cayenne.

habitat1 · October 2012

The Touareg is clearly the price point leader of the VW/Audi/Porsche triumvirate, but in terms of driving dynamics, I suspect the Cayenne diesel is a few rungs up the ladder. The Touareg is quicker and felt like it handled somewhat better than the (considerably heavier) Q7, but both were well behind the base Cayenne and even the X5d we bought. Although I didn't get a chance to drive the Cayenne diesel (test drove the v6 Cayenne with manual transmission) I suspect my conclusion would be the same for the diesel. Porsche handling is just hard to beat.

On the other hand, having owned a 911 for 5.5 years, I would have a tough time stomaching Porsche's routine maintenance and repair costs for a vehicle we intend to keep 8-10+ years and 120-150k+ miles. The X5d handling is second only to Porsche, the vehicle is a little bigger and more functional for our needs, and BMW maintenance costs, even after their 4 year plan expires, are less egregious than Porsche for a high milage SUV application.

ruking1 · October 2012

For those that are into it, I am sure a comparison of part numbers, spring and shock rates will be the real arbiter. There are a lot of interchangeabilities built into the mix VW Touareg, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne TDI's, albeit in order of least to more expensive.

Me, i got lost at: do you want air shocks with this?

No was the simple answer.

Just got back from the first 10,000 miles interval @ 11,111 miles. I was able to get a front row seat as the technician did the whole interval. We have 2 more included intervals. As far as complexity goes, it was an oil and oil filter change, tire rotation, 24 point inspection and Ad Blue topping.

habitat1 · October 2012

I'm not sure how many chassis interchangeables there can be when the Q7 TDI weighs 1,200 lbs more than a Cayenne V6 and 800 lbs more than a Cayenne Diesel? Of all of the SUV's we considered and test drove, those two were on the extreme bookends of weight, with everything else (X5d, ML350, MDX, etc.) coming in between them. So, at least from behind the steering wheel, they felt significantly different.

gagrice · October 2012

Did the tech mention how much adblue you used for 11k miles?

ateixeira · October 2012

house-yanking 850 lb-ft at 1600 rpm

Enough for a semi, but let's see a diesel Dart that beats a Prius' overall MPG.

ateixeira · October 2012

Looking at the list of options on the Cayenne gave me a headache

The price of some options might make you get really sick.

ruking1 · October 2012

I didn't think to ask, even as I made it a point to mention to the service advisor to make sure the tech did it.

xwesx · October 2012

I'm curious: Why would a gasoline engine be preferable to a diesel for plowing duty?

I don't have any non-age-related problems with my '76 Ford (360 4bbl) when it comes to plowing, but I'd think a diesel would work better. I was thinking a perfect "plow" truck would be a diesel with a PTO-driven snowthrower attachment. Forget the plowing. :P

ruking1 · October 2012

I am not sure. The plowers I have seen and actually an operator once let me do it were diesel. It was an OshKosh.

qbrozen · October 2012

I'm not really sure, either. I know my dad switched to diesel a few plow-equipped trucks ago and he'll never go back.

However, I guess if you really stretch the imagination, I could see someone arguing that the insane torque makes for a bit of a problem in slick conditions.(?)

stever · October 2012

You mean diesels actually crank in Fairbanks in the winter?

You never turn your cars off after Hallowe'en anyway, right? :P

My neighbor's nephew plows him out all winter with his diesel pickup; I don't think he has "clients", if that means anything.

habitat1 · October 2012

but let's see a diesel Dart that beats a Prius' overall MPG.

Can't speak to a diesel Dart, but we have friends that have a Prius and a BMW 335d. They each drive back and forth multiple times over the summer to their beach house in North Carolina. According to them, the Prius gets a real world 42-45 mpg at 75 on the highway. The 335d consistently gets 40+ mpg at a constant 75. A little less, but not much. On the other hand, the 335d is much more comfortable and quiet, and has passing ability to spare on the highway. They would claim the Prius is a great city car for short jaunts inside the Beltway, but they fight with knives and guns over who gets to drive the 335d from DC to NC. And their two kids NEVER choose to ride in back of the Prius on a highway trip.

The Prius has it's place, but for the 75% highway driving I do, it's place is not in my garage.

scwmcan · October 2012

I agree Gary, I think that at least for the " first world" nations ( I.e. western Europe and north America, and maybe Japan and South Korea) we should be working towards one standard for emissions and safety, I really wouldn't care if they just took the strictest standards and applied them, as long as they were the same, then the automakers would be able to sell any vehicule in any market without extra costs ( not say they would all be available in every market, but that it would be possible to react instantly if demand for say micro cars suddenly appeared in North America). This would allow for more options for every market.
And yes I recall the problems with the liberty diesel being emission crap as well, what I was trying to say was that hopefully Fiat with more experience with diesels and their emissions would have a better understanding of what was required and hopefully be able to come up with more reliable ( and less fuel costly) methods to meet US emission standards.

ateixeira · October 2012

No surprise, you take the hybrid out of its intended environment (city traffic), and in to the diesel's ideal environment (open road). Note that every european slanted comparison test will do exactly this. Or even better, put a Prius on the track, which is also was not designed to do.

In a year, they probably spend 7 days in NC and 358 days in DC traffic. That's probably why they got the Prius! I bet city mileage is roughly double, and the fuel costs 45 cents per gallon less at the Shell in Potomac, MD this morning.

If you go 75% highway driving, and don't hit lots of traffic, well then lucky you!

ruking1 · October 2012

It is interesting that in Japan ("first world") that an engine is considered "washed up" or gross polluting @ the 50,000 miles mark. I have read in passing that if someone (for whatever reason) wanted to keep the rest of the car, the engine needed to be replaced. I know for example my Civic will easily go to 400,000 miles (barring catastrophic mechanic failure (or "totaled" in) a crash.

While it is opaque and seamless to most consumers models in America are different from the exact same models in other countries.

I have also read in other articles that American OEMS do complain about having to meet different standards (tariffs, etc., also) when they can and want to sell in different countries. Now we do not hear that from most European and Japanese oems,as we have been their #1 markets in the past.

I have read just recently even as China is in its local and global slump that it is a bigger and better market for @ least the European oems. VW for example (again read in passing) have an almost 15% market share in a market @ 15 M cars.

The US on the other hand is on target for a so called "good year" @ 14.5 M vehicles. VW's share of that market is est @ less than 3% and that is more along the lines IF VW has a banner selling year in the US markets. (aka 400k units in US markets vs 2.25 M in China.

ateixeira · October 2012

in Japan ("first world") that an engine is considered "washed up" or gross polluting the 50,000 miles mark.

Where'd you read that? :confuse:

I'm sure many warranties are longer than that...

ruking1 · October 2012

I would agree. But I think you must admit this has been a long standing and most basic of issues, to select a vehicle appropriate for its application.

So if 358 days are spent in ( like DC) traffic, it really makes one wonder what is taking so long to have more plug in options. But even more importantly, PLUG in infrastructure.

The very same cities that advocate, to FORCE this change, really do not want the change.

I could lay it out but it would not be much on the diesel topic, even as it might effect or affect it.

ruking1 · October 2012

Like I said it is opaque to most US consumers.

stever · October 2012

Probably because Japan has such draconian motor vehicle inspections; costs so much to pass the inspections, they dump or export their cars before they hit 10 years of age. (Wiki)

I think it's a scheme to keep the automakers afloat.

ateixeira · October 2012

select a vehicle appropriate for its application

Never have truer words been spoken. :shades:

Funny thing is, I'm interested in both. I have 2 distinct vehicles, one for trips (minivan) and one for my city commute (roadster).

A smaller van may eventually replace the former, or maybe a wagon. A diesel would be a good candidate for that, especially one with 7-800 mile range.

For the city, though, the choice is tougher. Ideal car may be another Miata with a SkyActiv engine and auto start/stop. I'm not moving half the time.

EV and hybrid tech gets interesting if you get perks to go with the, like HOV lanes or discounted parking. My building offers discounted charging stations, at less than the cost of the electricity. So they are actually subsidizing your cost per mile.

Back on topic, remember when you could get a $750 incentive on the TDI? Too bad that went away.

Incentives like that should be solely based on the net energy use, and not biased to one tech over another (be it EV, Ethanol, CNG, diesel, gas, no matter).

ateixeira · October 2012

Another spin on planned obsolescence?

ruking1 · October 2012

Indeed Japan is so far ahead on that account, that unless you have spent any time there, you have absolutely no idea.

So for example, you almost have to have the equivalent of NYC condo approval to have a car in certain Japanese urban environs. They literally have an inspector that goes to and over time monitors the parking place you list as: where is the car garaged. Here is a 2009 article, aka 80,000 JPY (78.1)= 512. to 1024. US per month.

..."Monthly parking in Tokyo costs between 40,000  80,000 JPY. Parking spaces in Japan are nothing like the driveway that we had back in Florida. Tight squeeze is an understatement. The mechanical parking lots look more like a ride at the county fair."...

link title

Makes you wonder how they would pull off "PLUG IN" Don't forget Japan just lost 10% of its power (supplied by nuclear power)

It gets better !

8 variants of (Japanese) 2012 Civics (from Euros) 24.7 k to 40.6 K USD

18 variants of (US) 2012 Civics 15.9 k to 27.8 K USD.

There are (5) diesel variants, but in the US markets that is completely and utterly meaningless.

gagrice · October 2012

I think that is right. Cars have a tendency to rust out faster in Japan and that is the end. There is a big business in the USA selling used Japanese engines imported from there. Most are advertised as having low mileage around 30k miles. That is what I got for my son's Toyota PU when it crapped out at 107k miles. Still cost almost $3k for engine and installation.

ateixeira · October 2012

Must be proximity to the ocean.

Mom's Fiat Uno had a rust hole in the back hatch, I mean a whole in it, in just 2 years. The salt just eats 'em up.

In the tsunami footage and photos, I saw a lot of older cars, though. And they were close enough to the ocean that they were flood affected areas. I remember tons of Suzuki Wagon Rs.

gagrice · October 2012

The other explanation I heard from the company selling the used engines. Was most of the engines were 8-10 years old with only about 30k miles. I don't think they drive as much there as we do.

ateixeira · October 2012

It's shorter distances. They're on an island, after all.

So same number of trips as we do, just shorter distances, near the ocean.

The local cars in the Outer Banks tend to be rusty beaters.

habitat1 · October 2012

In a year, they probably spend 7 days in NC and 358 days in DC traffic. That's probably why they got the Prius!

Half true. The wife spends most of the summer at their NC house with the Prius there. She probably averages 3-4 round trips a year, at 700 miles per trip, so that's maybe 30-35% of the 8,000 miles they put on the Prius annually. The husband goes back and forth more like 8-10 times, representing 40-50% of the 15k miles he puts on the 335d. I just spoke to him today and asked him what his overall mileage has been with the 335d - it's a 2010 with 44k miles, mpg since new = 34.2.

xwesx · October 2012

You mean diesels actually crank in Fairbanks in the winter?

You never turn your cars off after Hallowe'en anyway, right?

Hahaha; oh, Steve, you never run out, do you?! :P

The good news I have on this topic (not diesel, plowing), is that I was able to get my plow blade working properly last night (for the first time!), so my truck is ready for the season. We had our first snow on Sunday morning, but nothing more in the forecast. Maybe we'll get a week or two of dry roads yet before winter truly takes hold.

ruking1 · October 2012

I am not sure why you would think it is a funny thing to be interested in both. Perhaps it is the fact that some things might be coincidental with what I have posted or somehow resonated.

So for example, IF I wanted/needed a minivan, say a Honda Odyssey, knowing what I know about three other diesel products, I would bemoan the fact that no diesel options are offered. I am sure Honda would have issues with upgrades to the transmissions that it uses. As for a roadster for a commute car, again there are not many diesel choices, even as a roadster would not be my first "commute" car choice. Now I know it (in your case) does double duty as fun/commute car. As I remember from your previous post the 50 mpg that we get on one is a minimum of 2 x better the fuel mileage of the roadster, aka you get less than 25 mpg? .

KCRam · October 2012

I'm curious: Why would a gasoline engine be preferable to a diesel for plowing duty?

One word: weight.

A Cummins weighs significantly more than the Hemi and combined with the added front-end weight of a plow kit, makes the truck extremely front heavy. That leaves little room for error or impact on the front springs, and actually causes the rear springs to unload. (Think of a fully-loaded 1970s station wagon where the rear axle was bottomed out and the front end was actually at its spring extension... now flip that around.) Think about shoveling snow yourself - which takes more work... pressing downward on your shovel to get to the ground, or simply pushing the snow aside as you move forward? When you plow, you just want to push it. A front-heavy truck will start to dig down.

The lighter gasoline engine keeps the suspension more balanced and lets the rear suspension handle more of the truck weight. The Ram Power Wagon doesn't offer the Cummins for the same reason.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

habitat1 · October 2012

One word: weight.

Funny story. We were at a back to school night last week and ran into another couple who bought a ML350 (gas) a few months before we bought our X5D. As we were leaving, another dad came to me and asked how we liked the X5d. Before I had a chance to answer, the ML dad jumps in and says "don't get a diesel, they weigh a lot more and don't handle as well".

Well, it just so happens that the ML dad is about 240#, his wife is about 175#. I'm 160, my wife is 105#. There are a couple of inches in height difference each, but at least a foot in circumference difference. You can do the math. The dad that originally asked the question of how we liked the X5d did. We all had a good laugh.

Sorry, off topic.

gagrice · October 2012

That is amazing. I cannot think of any reason to buy the ML350 gas. They are still ugly, though growing on me. The only luxury SUV that is uglier is the Lexus RX. I would take any of the diesel SUV offerings over any gas powered SUV. Might as well keep the Sequoia if gas usage is not an issue. It is 5 years old this month and has two years and 41k miles on the platinum warranty.

Wonder how he would feel when the ML350 Bluetec blows by him on the highway? 200 more ft-lbs of torque is nothing to sneeze at.

ruking1 · October 2012

Back in the day when that used to matter, up to 500 #'s of sand in the trunk was a great equalizer, not to mention spread able.

qbrozen · October 2012

How much of a weight difference is there between the 2 engines? I just can't imagine even a couple hundred pounds is going to upset the balance of a 6000-lb vehicle very much.

I've got a burning question now that I'm looking at the specs on the Ram website.... why in the world is the base weight of a manual trans truck 950 lbs more than an automatic?!

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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